The Set as agents of Odium?

[NerdyAarakocra They/Them]

4 hours ago, Ashbringer said:

But the Fused shouldn't be able to leave Roshar because they're Cognitive Shadows. Too Invested to leave the Rosharan system. His "agents" would need to be regular Rosharans (and most likely humans to communicate offworld) he'd somehow convinced to fight for him, through Unmade influence or someone coming to Braize specifically.

Which is possible, based on several things, but I feel like we should have met this person before.

We know that Odium plans to send them out into the Cosmere, and we know that if Dalinar looses Odium will send him out as a personal agent. The limits of Cognitive Shadows might not be as bad as we think. After all, Kelsier was heavily invested by Preservation and still managed to get to the IRE.

[Frustration]

I would like to add that we have confirmation that Odium had a presence on Scadrial.

Spoiler

Questioner

Is there anything I should look at as a hint for something we haven’t figured out yet?

Brandon Sanderson

Oh, that's a good question too. There are moments through the entire original trilogy that people haven't figured out yet. But they've picked out most of what they are, they just don't know why. Like they know something weird is happening, they don't know-- They haven't guessed why the weirdness is happening. The weirdness is figure-out-able, but it would be hard. But it's not outside of reason for you to figure out why these certain moments-- these moments people have not yet figured out.

Questioner

Because Odium had influence on Scadrial.

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. Not a ton, but yes.

Questioner

...Kelsier had an irrational hatred for Nobles.

Brandon Sanderson

He did, he did indeed.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/69/#e6141

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[NerdyAarakocra They/Them]

9 hours ago, Frustration said:

I would like to add that we have confirmation that Odium had a presence on Scadrial.

  Hide contents

Questioner

Is there anything I should look at as a hint for something we haven’t figured out yet?

Brandon Sanderson

Oh, that's a good question too. There are moments through the entire original trilogy that people haven't figured out yet. But they've picked out most of what they are, they just don't know why. Like they know something weird is happening, they don't know-- They haven't guessed why the weirdness is happening. The weirdness is figure-out-able, but it would be hard. But it's not outside of reason for you to figure out why these certain moments-- these moments people have not yet figured out.

Questioner

Because Odium had influence on Scadrial.

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. Not a ton, but yes.

Questioner

...Kelsier had an irrational hatred for Nobles.

Brandon Sanderson

He did, he did indeed.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/69/#e6141

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Dramatic music intensifies.

[Isilel]

On 19 October 2022 at 8:16 PM, Ashbringer said:

But the Fused shouldn't be able to leave Roshar because they're Cognitive Shadows. Too Invested to leave the Rosharan system. 

 

I am not sure that's true. Didn't Odium intend to do just that with Dalinar after winning the duel of champions? To send him out into Cosmere as his human Fused emissary? Just because the Fused don't know how to leave doesn't mean that Odium or any Shard, is equally ignorant. He himself is imprisoned in the Rosharan system by the powers of Honor and Cultivation, but they aren't. 

Concerning Axindweth, I think  that she was a Ghostblood, while Gereh was of the 17 Shard.

Edited October 30, 2022 by Isilel

[hubrisnxs]

Hey.  Fascinating topic(s).

 

I just wanted to point out when Brandon said Odium had influence "not much, but some" he was speaking of all shards having some influence everywhere.  

He often says this kind of thing when someone asks if ____ had influence on this or that happening in world.  Almost without exception, it's yes, but the "not much" turns out to be quite a little 

[Ashbringer he/him]

On 10/30/2022 at 2:57 AM, Isilel said:

I am not sure that's true. Didn't Odium intend to do just that with Dalinar after winning the duel of champions? To send him out into Cosmere as his human Fused emissary? Just because the Fused don't know how to leave doesn't mean that Odium or any Shard, is equally ignorant. He himself is imprisoned in the Rosharan system by the powers of Honor and Cultivation, but they aren't. 

I suppose it’s possible that the Shards know how to do it, but that would most likely mean Harmony is either specifically unaware or hiding it from Kelsier - and if Harmony doesn’t know, I don’t know why Taravangian would. Vasher is also technically a Cognitive Shadow and managed to worldhop.

I was under the impression Odium had also been forced to Invest upon Roshar, which is why the Fused and voidspren exist. But that may be wrong too. A better question is why need to wait for Dalinar ro start sending Fused off-world if Odium was indeed able to.

[Frustration]

16 hours ago, hubrisnxs said:

Hey.  Fascinating topic(s).

 

I just wanted to point out when Brandon said Odium had influence "not much, but some" he was speaking of all shards having some influence everywhere.  

He often says this kind of thing when someone asks if ____ had influence on this or that happening in world.  Almost without exception, it's yes, but the "not much" turns out to be quite a little 

He generally will specify when that is the case, and he gave an unequivocal"yes" not a "technically yes"

[+Child of Hodor]

7 hours ago, Ashbringer said:

I suppose it’s possible that the Shards know how to do it, but that would most likely mean Harmony is either specifically unaware or hiding it from Kelsier - and if Harmony doesn’t know, I don’t know why Taravangian would. Vasher is also technically a Cognitive Shadow and managed to worldhop.

I was under the impression Odium had also been forced to Invest upon Roshar, which is why the Fused and voidspren exist. But that may be wrong too. A better question is why need to wait for Dalinar ro start sending Fused off-world if Odium was indeed able to.

Odium can't leave Roshar because of something Honor and Cultivation did that Honor or Dalinar as close enough to Honor can release Odium from by intent. His Fused and spren are stuck due to their nature as cognitive realm beings much like the Heralds are stuck. As you say Odium is invested and even if he were freed it would take some effort for him to move on from a world he's been on for so long unless he is willing leave a bunch of investiture committed to Roshar in the physical and cognitive realms. 

I don't think Trell's agents are of Odium simply for the meta reason that I don't think Brandon will give away a major development in SA5 before that book comes out. If Odium is committing significant resources to attacking Harmony then he must no longer be having issues with Roshar or why wouldn't he dedicate everything he has to freeing himself? Plus there are so many other Shards we haven't met yet. 

[hitkay]

40 minutes ago, Child of Hodor said:

I don't think Trell's agents are of Odium simply for the meta reason that I don't think Brandon will give away a major development in SA5 before that book comes out. If Odium is committing significant resources to attacking Harmony then he must no longer be having issues with Roshar or why wouldn't he dedicate everything he has to freeing himself?

You may want to reread the terms for the contest of champions. Regardless of the victor, Dalinar and Odium will do their best to keep the peace (which I assume is why there will be at least ten years between SA5 and SA6), and Odium will send his boys into the wider cosmere. So if Odium is Trell, this doesn't reveal anything about SA5. He'd do this either way.

43 minutes ago, Child of Hodor said:

As you say Odium is invested and even if he were freed it would take some effort for him to move on from a world he's been on for so long unless he is willing leave a bunch of investiture committed to Roshar in the physical and cognitive realms. 

This is true, and we know that it's not something Odium wants to do, so the fact that Trell will be able to block Harmony in an entire city is definitely a notable argument against the Odium theory.

[Frustration]

7 hours ago, hitkay said:

This is true, and we know that it's not something Odium wants to do, so the fact that Trell will be able to block Harmony in an entire city is definitely a notable argument against the Odium theory.

The Unmade blocked the Stormfather from seeing Kholinar.

[Ashbringer he/him]

Actually, one more meta-thing that we should probably add to the mix on Trell's identity:

Originally in revisions, The Lost Metal was supposed to release before Stormlight 4.

[+Child of Hodor]

19 hours ago, hitkay said:

You may want to reread the terms for the contest of champions. Regardless of the victor, Dalinar and Odium will do their best to keep the peace (which I assume is why there will be at least ten years between SA5 and SA6), and Odium will send his boys into the wider cosmere. So if Odium is Trell, this doesn't reveal anything about SA5. He'd do this either way.

This is true, and we know that it's not something Odium wants to do, so the fact that Trell will be able to block Harmony in an entire city is definitely a notable argument against the Odium theory.

Yeah, I forgot about that. Dalinar is to be the leader of the Fused if Odium wins and if Odium wins he's Odium can leave the system and can show up in other systems.  If we don't see the shard vessel and we don't see Dalinar that implies he didn't win. Or he won and considers Scadrial not important enough for either he nor his forces leader to get too involved. 

My thing with contest is I don't think Brandon is going to loudly announce the real result of book 5 in book 4. When Brandon has characters say "The outcome will definitely only be either A or B" I think neither of those things will be the real state of things at the end of book 5. 

There could be a shard merger, a splintering a splintering and them H&C both absorb a piece. Odium could have the same vessel, a new vessel or no vessel. Dalinar could be dead, a Fused or a god. I don't know how Odium's forces showing up won't give something away unless they only talk in vague terms. That's not super satisfying for a mysterious force that's been teased for 4 books. 

[StormingTexan he/him]

9 hours ago, Ashbringer said:

Actually, one more meta-thing that we should probably add to the mix on Trell's identity:

Originally in revisions, The Lost Metal was supposed to release before Stormlight 4.

Yes the actual book was supposed to be released sooner but as far as the Cosmere timeline I believe still intended to be after SA5. This WoB is from 2016 before OB was released but well in to writing it so this has been the plan for a while. 

 

Quote

 

PhantoMonstrosity

Before Ruin and Preservation showed up on Scadrial, was aluminum already antimagical? Also, is [The Alloy of Law] between Stormlight 5&6?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, [The Alloy of Law] is after Stormlight 5. Specific timing will depend on how long I make the 5/6 gap once I get there.

#NookTalks Twitter Q&A with Barnes & Noble (Feb. 16, 2016)

 

 

Edited November 2, 2022 by StormingTexan

[Ashbringer he/him]

1 hour ago, StormingTexan said:

Yes the actual book was supposed to be released sooner but as far as the Cosmere timeline I believe still intended to be after SA5. This WoB is from 2016 before OB was released but well in to writing it so this has been the plan for a while. 

I guess what I mean is, assuming we learn Trell's identity here - which we might not even learn - it could have happened in the context of OB and not RoW. So if the reveal is that Trell is Odium, then we wouldn't have known Rayse was replaced with Taravangian at that point. 

That feels weird, from a meta perspective.

[hitkay]

2 hours ago, Child of Hodor said:

Yeah, I forgot about that. Dalinar is to be the leader of the Fused if Odium wins and if Odium wins he's Odium can leave the system and can show up in other systems.  If we don't see the shard vessel and we don't see Dalinar that implies he didn't win. Or he won and considers Scadrial not important enough for either he nor his forces leader to get too involved. 

My thing with contest is I don't think Brandon is going to loudly announce the real result of book 5 in book 4. When Brandon has characters say "The outcome will definitely only be either A or B" I think neither of those things will be the real state of things at the end of book 5. 

There could be a shard merger, a splintering a splintering and them H&C both absorb a piece. Odium could have the same vessel, a new vessel or no vessel. Dalinar could be dead, a Fused or a god. I don't know how Odium's forces showing up won't give something away unless they only talk in vague terms. That's not super satisfying for a mysterious force that's been teased for 4 books. 

No. Odium cannot leave the system even if he wins. He will send his boys out whether or not he wins. The only thing that would give away the outcome of the contest would be Dalinar's presence. And yes, Odium could be shattered somehow in SA5, but it isn't as though Odium being Trell would spoil anything other than the fact that Odium was not shattered.

14 minutes ago, Ashbringer said:

I guess what I mean is, assuming we learn Trell's identity here - which we might not even learn - it could have happened in the context of OB and not RoW. So if the reveal is that Trell is Odium, then we wouldn't have known Rayse was replaced with Taravangian at that point. 

That feels weird, from a meta perspective.

Agreed, another reason why I think Autonomy is more likely from a meta perspective. But using in-universe evidence, I think Odium is the more likely candidate.

[StormingTexan he/him]

14 minutes ago, Ashbringer said:

I guess what I mean is, assuming we learn Trell's identity here - which we might not even learn - it could have happened in the context of OB and not RoW. So if the reveal is that Trell is Odium, then we wouldn't have known Rayse was replaced with Taravangian at that point. 

That feels weird, from a meta perspective.

Ah gotcha. Yes I agree. Oh and we do have a WoB that we will know who Trell is in this book. I am personally not a fan of Trell being Odium. I can see the reasons people feel this way but from the timeline alone I do not like the idea. Plus I want another bad guy! 

[Ashbringer he/him]

18 minutes ago, hitkay said:

No. Odium cannot leave the system even if he wins. He will send his boys out whether or not he wins. The only thing that would give away the outcome of the contest would be Dalinar's presence. And yes, Odium could be shattered somehow in SA5, but it isn't as though Odium being Trell would spoil anything other than the fact that Odium was not shattered.

I think it is possible Odium breaks out in SA 5. Mainly that I feel Dalinar being forced to serve Odium could have much more drastic consequences. Don't know if Odium could order Dalinar to release him within the bounds of their agreement, but Odium probably could force Dalinar to make the Stormfather a deadeye. Which would be bad.

But still, that's more SA5 things, and likely wouldn't be spoiled in TLM.

[+Child of Hodor]

1 hour ago, hitkay said:

No. Odium cannot leave the system even if he wins. He will send his boys out whether or not he wins. The only thing that would give away the outcome of the contest would be Dalinar's presence. And yes, Odium could be shattered somehow in SA5, but it isn't as though Odium being Trell would spoil anything other than the fact that Odium was not shattered.

Agreed, another reason why I think Autonomy is more likely from a meta perspective. But using in-universe evidence, I think Odium is the more likely candidate.

In other words it hinges on SA5's ending like I was saying. And who are his "Boys"? The Fused? How are they going to leave the system they, like the spren and the Heralds are stuck due to their nature as cognitive shadows.  They don't need Dalinar's permission to leave they need to change their Connection which is something they are trying to figure out, but haven't as of SA4 so if the Fused or Unmade show up it's another spoiler for SA5. 

Dalinar has the power to release Odium, if Odium wins the contest Dalinar is under his power and can order his own release. So yes, if he wins he's free. Taravangian even hints at there being a loophole he can exploit in text.

Edited November 2, 2022 by Child of Hodor
Removing Unnecessary Snark

[hitkay]

18 minutes ago, Child of Hodor said:

And who are his "Boys"? The Fused? How are they going to leave the system they, like the spren and the Heralds are stuck due to their nature as cognitive shadows.  They don't need Dalinar's permission to leave they need to change their Connection which is something they are trying to figure out, but haven't as of SA4 so if the Fused or Unmade show up it's another spoiler for SA5.

He refers to the people he plans to send as "agents", with the only one specifically mentioned being Dalinar, so I don't really know how to refer to them.

18 minutes ago, Child of Hodor said:

Dalinar has the power to release Odium, if Odium wins the contest Dalinar is under his power and can order his own release. So yes, if he wins he's free. Taravangian even hints at there being a loophole he can exploit in text.

I don't think Dalinar would still be able to release Odium if he won, because he'd no longer represent Honor, he'd represent Odium, right? As for the loophole, the line is this:

It can still be done, Taravangian realized, seeing the possibilities—so subtle—that his predecessor had missed. Yes … Dalinar has set himself up … to fail. I can beat him.

From "I can beat him", I think he's thinking of possibilities to win the contest of champions, not loopholes to exploit in the event of a defeat.

I could be wrong, but my point is that if Odium is Trell, this doesn't necessarily spoil the end of SA5, at least not in a way we'd recognize until SA5 contextualized it.

Edited November 2, 2022 by hitkay

[Ashbringer he/him]

11 minutes ago, Child of Hodor said:

In other words it hinges on SA5's ending like I was saying. And who are his "Boys"? The Fused? How are they going to leave the system they, like the spren and the Heralds are stuck due to their nature as cognitive shadows.  They don't need Dalinar's permission to leave they need to change their Connection which is something they are trying to figure out, but haven't as of SA4 so if the Fused or Unmade show up it's another spoiler for SA5. 

Dalinar has the power to release Odium, if Odium wins the contest Dalinar is under his power and can order his own release. So yes, if he wins he's free. Taravangian even hints at there being a loophole he can exploit in text. Since you love condescending reading recommendations you might want to reread that part of the book again. 

... you know, Dalinar as a Bondsmith is a pretty good master of Connection...

[hitkay]

6 minutes ago, Ashbringer said:

... you know, Dalinar as a Bondsmith is a pretty good master of Connection...

Would Dalinar still be a Bondsmith if he became a Fused?

[Ashbringer he/him]

5 minutes ago, hitkay said:

Would Dalinar still be a Bondsmith if he became a Fused?

Depends if it breaks his Oaths. Which it probably would, but we don't know enough about Fused-becoming to say.

[Stigmadiabolicum]

So I'm confused, everyone's debating the classic odium or autonomy question we've had for years..but everyone seems to have just breezed right past the confirmation? He specifically said Trell was seeking new avatars..that's Bavadin. It's 100% autonomy haha. Avatars are kind of their whole thing, as much as mists were Leras.

Weve always had the two clues, the metal in Lessie was from a shard we'd seen before at the time, which everyone narrowed down to autonomy, and the red color of the mist encroaching on the planet.

Don't get me wrong, red and gold is definitely odium, there's the WoB where he mentions the color themes, cultivation is green, honor is blue white, and odium is red gold. But the snag was red is also just corrupted investiture, as well as autonomy.

The vague warning was either the ash or odium will be coming to destroy you, the threats coming. they worked together to beat Dominion and Devotion but autonomy was next on odiums list, makes sense he'd also make a play, Brandon said hes scared of harmony at least until he learns of his crippling dualistic bindings, if there's going to be a clash he'd want to take out the loser or assist the winner

But just from a meta perspective, it makes no sense to build up this mysterious threat for a decade if it's just the same threat Roshar has.. Plus, harmony is completely clueless about its source as of BoM, but we know from his correspondence with Hoid he was aware of Rayse/Odium and how significant a threat it was to the other shards. He also says he'd love to meet Hoid to speak further, and considering autonomy & endowments replies were completely dismissive, I'm pretty sure Hoid is DEFINITELY going to go chat with Sazed about it ASAP, since it's the only shard thats friendly with him, not to mention a unique new dual shard. 

So when we see the red mist encroaching on the planet, i feel like Sazed would at least get a line telling Wax like i may have an idea what we face, I've been warned, etc, but he's totally blind.

But yeah, avatars. That's specific wording, sure invested hosts working for a shard could technically be that, but it's the wording that's pretty clear. 

(Also to the earlier commenter talking about cognitive shadows being bound to their planet like Kel, Vasher is the exception, Endowment hacked the magic system so Returned are exempt from that rule, unlike Kel or the Heralds 

 

[hitkay]

1 hour ago, Stigmadiabolicum said:

So I'm confused, everyone's debating the classic odium or autonomy question we've had for years..but everyone seems to have just breezed right past the confirmation? He specifically said Trell was seeking new avatars..that's Bavadin. It's 100% autonomy haha. Avatars are kind of their whole thing, as much as mists were Leras.

The problem with this is that from what we know of Avatars, Autonomy creates them, she doesn't possess people, though the Patji situation makes this more confusing than WoB seems to imply. Possession is more of Odium's forte, and meanwhile the Dor have no Vessel and might want one. I really wouldn't read into this because we don't understand enough about what it refers to.

1 hour ago, Stigmadiabolicum said:

We've always had the two clues, the metal in Lessie was from a shard we'd seen before at the time, which everyone narrowed down to autonomy, and the red color of the mist encroaching on the planet.

Don't get me wrong, red and gold is definitely odium, there's the WoB where he mentions the color themes, cultivation is green, honor is blue white, and odium is red gold. But the snag was red is also just corrupted investiture, as well as autonomy.

Trell is associated with gold as well as red, so unless Autonomy has associations with gold (which is entirely possible), the evidence is actually tilting towards Odium. Trell was "narrowed down to Autonomy", yeah, but Harmony has never encountered Odium's Investiture before, so knowing of Odium would not help him recognize Trell, if Odium was Trell. Similarly, Cultivation remains a potential candidate, although her motive would be unclear, and the Dor is technically on the table, although it's unlikely to be Trell.

1 hour ago, Stigmadiabolicum said:

But just from a meta perspective, it makes no sense to build up this mysterious threat for a decade if it's just the same threat Roshar has.

This is true. If it's Odium, then it may serve to bridge the gap between the two Stormlight halves, and there's also a theory that Cultivation will be the villain in the second half, allowing Odium to be the villain of Era 3.

You could also make the argument that it makes no sense to build up a mysterious threat if we've never encountered the mysterious threat before. I could be wrong, and don't quote me on this, but I think the only time we've actually seen the name 'Autonomy' in a novel so far is from MBSH - "Ruin, Preservation, Autonomy, Cultivation, Devotion...There are sixteen of them". All other knowledge of Autonomy, I think, comes from Arcanum Unbounded or WoB, though we do get an unsigned Patji letter in Oathbringer and a reference to Bavadin in Way of Kings. A reader who isn't extensively familiar with the cosmere lore would probably read the reveal and wonder who on earth Autonomy is.

I do agree with you, and I think it's Autonomy, but Odium is still in the running.

1 hour ago, Stigmadiabolicum said:

Plus, harmony is completely clueless about its source as of BoM, but we know from his correspondence with Hoid he was aware of Rayse/Odium and how significant a threat it was to the other shards. He also says he'd love to meet Hoid to speak further, and considering autonomy & endowments replies were completely dismissive, I'm pretty sure Hoid is DEFINITELY going to go chat with Sazed about it ASAP, since it's the only shard thats friendly with him, not to mention a unique new dual shard. 

So when we see the red mist encroaching on the planet, i feel like Sazed would at least get a line telling Wax like i may have an idea what we face, I've been warned, etc, but he's totally blind.

It's important to remember that Harmony corresponds with Hoid years before the events of Alloy of Law. It's unclear what their relationship is in Era 2, and Harmony may not know the terms of the contest of champions, so he could believe that Odium is still focused on Roshar.

[Firesong she/her]

Everyone also seems to miss that it seems the "men of red and gold" are not something to do with Trell. But something Trell will stop. Given they keep warning of the "coming of the men of red and gold", and how they should worship Trell in order to protect themselves. 

Quote

 

You are fools! One day, the men of gold and red, bearers of the final metal, will come to you. And you will be ruled by them. Worship. Worship Trell and wait .

Quote

“The ash comes again,” the man said through bloody lips, his voice strangely grating. “The world will fall to it. You will get what you deserve, and all will wither beneath a cloud of blackness and a blanket of burned bodies made ash."

...

“Your end,” the voice whispered. “Your end comes. Either in ash, or at the hands of the men of gold and red. Gold and—”

 

My theory, Trell is an Avatar of Autonomy, and the Men of Red and Gold have to do with Odium. Given we know Odium wants to spread across the Cosmere and kill all the Shards (at least, before Todium).