The Set as agents of Odium?

[StormingTexan he/him]

25 minutes ago, hitkay said:

You could also make the argument that it makes no sense to build up a mysterious threat if we've never encountered the mysterious threat before. I could be wrong, and don't quote me on this, but I think the only time we've actually seen the name 'Autonomy' in a novel so far is from MBSH - "Ruin, Preservation, Autonomy, Cultivation, Devotion...There are sixteen of them". All other knowledge of Autonomy, I think, comes from Arcanum Unbounded or WoB, though we do get an unsigned Patji letter in Oathbringer and a reference to Bavadin in Way of Kings. A reader who isn't extensively familiar with the cosmere lore would probably read the reveal and wonder who on earth Autonomy is.

This is a good point and I agree that besides the "Super Fans" Trell being Autonomy and/or an Avatar will come out of left field for most readers. Assuming Brandon still wants Cosmere stuff as a back story or Easter eggs there is pretty much zero foreshadowing of Autonomy in the MB books. Every bit we get is in SA. Now if anyone could pull this off in a way to not completely confuse everyone it would be Brandon but I agree it just does not feel right.

On the other hand I am sure Brandon does feel the need to introduce more of Autonomy (She is obviously meddling in the Cosmere)  and with the events of White Sands being so long ago as well as her interaction on First of Sun being somewhat ambiguous I could see this as an opportunity to introduce Autonomy. He will not have a lot of other opportunities in the near future unless she is added in the mix to everything else going on in Roshar. 

Either way I hate the idea it is Odium. It does not make much sense with the timeline and events of RoW.  

[Firesong she/her]

5 minutes ago, StormingTexan said:

This is a good point and I agree that besides the "Super Fans" Trell being Autonomy and/or an Avatar will come out of left field for most readers. Assuming Brandon still wants Cosmere stuff as a back story or Easter eggs there is pretty much zero foreshadowing of Autonomy in the MB books. Every bit we get is in SA. Now if anyone could pull this off in a way to not completely confuse everyone it would be Brandon but I agree it just does not feel right.

On the other hand I am sure Brandon does feel the need to introduce more of Autonomy (She is obviously meddling in the Cosmere)  and with the events of White Sands being so long ago as well as her interaction on First of Sun being somewhat ambiguous I could see this as an opportunity to introduce Autonomy. He will not have a lot of other opportunities in the near future unless she is added in the mix to everything else going on in Roshar. 

Either way I hate the idea it is Odium. It does not make much sense with the timeline and events of RoW.  

Yeah, as I said in my last comment, Trell definitely isn't Odium. At most, it is corrupted by Odium. But even that I feel iffy about, given the fact that Harmony didn't recognize Trell at all, and it seems he would recognize it if Odium was mixed into it. Given he recognizes Odium. 

And then there is also the points I mentioned in my last comments about how the Men of Red and Gold are explicitly not of Trell. 

[hitkay]

43 minutes ago, Firesong said:

Yeah, as I said in my last comment, Trell definitely isn't Odium. At most, it is corrupted by Odium. But even that I feel iffy about, given the fact that Harmony didn't recognize Trell at all, and it seems he would recognize it if Odium was mixed into it. Given he recognizes Odium. 

I still disagree with this. It's unlikely that Harmony has ever encountered Odium's Investiture, so it's unlikely that Harmony would recognize Trell as Odium, if Trell is Odium.

45 minutes ago, Firesong said:

And then there is also the points I mentioned in my last comments about how the Men of Red and Gold are explicitly not of Trell. 

I wouldn't call it explicit. Miles and the Cycle aren't necessarily warning Marasi and co. about the men of red and gold - they could be gloating.

54 minutes ago, StormingTexan said:

I could see this as an opportunity to introduce Autonomy. He will not have a lot of other opportunities in the near future unless she is added in the mix to everything else going on in Roshar.

I agree, this is still the main reason why I think Trell is Autonomy.

[Frustration]

1 hour ago, StormingTexan said:

On the other hand I am sure Brandon does feel the need to introduce more of Autonomy (She is obviously meddling in the Cosmere)  and with the events of White Sands being so long ago as well as her interaction on First of Sun being somewhat ambiguous I could see this as an opportunity to introduce Autonomy. He will not have a lot of other opportunities in the near future unless she is added in the mix to everything else going on in Roshar. 

Secret project 1 is a good opportunity. So are 3 and 4 to a lesser extent.

[StanLemon]

I'm fairly convinced Trell is Autonomy and that this book is going to be the introduction of Autonomy in the main books. Though it would be interesting if somehow Trell was an Avatar of Autonomy that was "Unmade" by Odium

[Firesong she/her]

We kinda got an introduction to Autonomy in the main books, Oathbringer had a bit from her. But to have a large role, yeah. 

Given not even White Sand really had much of her beyond the Sky Faces. So would be cool to actually see her and stuff. 

 

I also am excited for whatever role Whimsy has in the book. As Brandon did say Whimsy is mentioned in it. As Whimsy is an attribute is far less majestic and big than the other Shards. Wondering how exactly they work. Maybe be like Trickster Deities from various religions, like Wisakedjak or such. But not exactly sure. 

 

[CognitiveShadow he/him]

2 hours ago, Frustration said:

Secret project 1 is a good opportunity. So are 3 and 4 to a lesser extent.

Thanks for the reminder that this next year is going to be so great with all the new books. Not to mention SA5 in 2024. After that life will start to suck again for a while but wow looking forward to this period of time!!

[Firesong she/her]

1 minute ago, CognitiveShadow said:

Thanks for the reminder that this next year is going to be so great with all the new books. Not to mention SA5 in 2024. After that life will start to suck again for a while but wow looking forward to this period of time!!

Oh, yeah, next year is gonna be great. This year too, I mean, The Lost Metal and White Sand Omnibus (which some reveals showed as an Ars Archanum that details the astronomy side and such). Very exciting. 

And then four novels next year. 

squeals in fangirl

[NerdyAarakocra They/Them]

I think that a major thing that people are ignoring is the entity that showed up and bombed the prison cell. It uses illusions and has red eyes. There's a type of Fused that does exactly that.

I've seen arguments that it couldn't be a Fused because they can't escape Roshar, but we have direct evidence to the contrary. Odium directly states that Fused Dalinar will go to other systems.

Also, there's no reason to expect Harmony to know what Odium's Investiture looks like. Harmony knows that Odium exists, sure, but hasn't interacted with him at any point.

This isn't to say that Trell can't be Autonomy - that's still a possibility. However, I think that Odium is a more likely candidate.

[Proletariat]

I mean, another thing that counters Trell as Odium is that Brandon didn't know if Stormfather could be dead eyed or not. If there's some bond breaking moment for Dalinar where he becomes Odium's champion, and Odium is free to terrorise Scadrial in an already completed book, then you'd think he'd have finalised that.

[NerdyAarakocra They/Them]

13 hours ago, Proletariat said:

I mean, another thing that counters Trell as Odium is that Brandon didn't know if Stormfather could be dead eyed or not. If there's some bond breaking moment for Dalinar where he becomes Odium's champion, and Odium is free to terrorise Scadrial in an already completed book, then you'd think he'd have finalised that.

We don't know if there even would be a bond breaking moment. Odium ceirtainly wouldn't want that, as he wants Fused Dalinar at full power. If Dalinar looses the contest, the Stormfather might become Unmade, though. 

I think that the in-canon stuff supports Odium as Trell while the meta stuff supports Autonomy.

Edited November 13, 2022 by NerdyAarakocra
Clarifiying an unclear use of pronouns.

[Nesh he/him]

On 11/10/2022 at 6:06 PM, NerdyAarakocra said:

I think that a major thing that people are ignoring is the entity that showed up and bombed the prison cell. It uses illusions and has red eyes. There's a type of Fused that does exactly that.

I've seen arguments that it couldn't be a Fused because they can't escape Roshar, but we have direct evidence to the contrary. Odium directly states that Fused Dalinar will go to other systems.

Also, there's no reason to expect Harmony to know what Odium's Investiture looks like. Harmony knows that Odium exists, sure, but hasn't interacted with him at any point.

This isn't to say that Trell can't be Autonomy - that's still a possibility. However, I think that Odium is a more likely candidate.

Keep in mind that there are similar mechanics in different magiics across the Cosmere, i.e. Yolish and Rosharan Lightweaving.  So just because a Fused has that powerset doesn't mean something else can't have it as well.

[NerdyAarakocra They/Them]

36 minutes ago, Nesh said:

Keep in mind that there are similar mechanics in different magiics across the Cosmere, i.e. Yolish and Rosharan Lightweaving.  So just because a Fused has that powerset doesn't mean something else can't have it as well.

Yeah, but it had red eyes. Also, Lightweaving on three different worlds seems like a bit of a strech.

[Nesh he/him]

4 minutes ago, NerdyAarakocra said:

Yeah, but it had red eyes. Also, Lightweaving on three different worlds seems like a bit of a strech.

Red is typically a sign of corruption, it's not an Odium only thing, and Eltantrians can create illusions similar to Lightweaving so...It's actually one of the more common Cosmere powers we've seen.

Edited November 14, 2022 by Nesh

[NerdyAarakocra They/Them]

1 minute ago, Nesh said:

Red is typically a sign of corruption, it's not an Odium only thing, and Eltantrians can create illusions similar to Lightweaving so...It's actua;;y one of the more common Cosmere powers we've seen.

So...

We could have A. an Elantarian, B. a random person from a world that we haven't seen, or C. a Fused.

Elantarians aern't corrupted.

In addition, there's no reason to assume that a Yolish lightweaver would be corrupted.

Yeah, a fused seems more likely.

[CognitiveShadow he/him]

1 minute ago, NerdyAarakocra said:

So...

We could have A. an Elantarian, B. a random person from a world that we haven't seen, or C. a Fused.

Elantarians aern't corrupted.

In addition, there's no reason to assume that a Yolish lightweaver would be corrupted.

Yeah, a fused seems more likely.

I don’t know, it seems like the immortals that are showing up is more of a possession situation. I know that sounds similar to the fused, but I think it’s a little different. It doesn’t seem like these “fused” are being killed regularly, requiring them to get new bodies. But they seem to show up as some random person each time. Suit thought that they took control over one of the people off the street. I lean towards this being a similar principle to the fused in process, but not necessarily from Odium. Though he could be involved indirectly I think

[NerdyAarakocra They/Them]

3 minutes ago, CognitiveShadow said:

I don’t know, it seems like the immortals that are showing up is more of a possession situation. I know that sounds similar to the fused, but I think it’s a little different. It doesn’t seem like these “fused” are being killed regularly, requiring them to get new bodies. But they seem to show up as some random person each time. Suit thought that they took control over one of the people off the street. I lean towards this being a similar principle to the fused in process, but not necessarily from Odium. Though he could be involved indirectly I think

Yeah... I go with Occam's Razor here. It seems more likely that it would be Fused.

[Nesh he/him]

Just now, NerdyAarakocra said:

So...

We could have A. an Elantarian, B. a random person from a world that we haven't seen, or C. a Fused.

Elantarians aern't corrupted.

In addition, there's no reason to assume that a Yolish lightweaver would be corrupted.

Yeah, a fused seems more likely.

I wasn't saying it was an Elantrian, I was using that to counter "Lightweaving on three planets is unlikely."  The point being that there's no reason to believe other magics can't ahve it.  Corruption just means a shard coopting the magic system of another shard.  We already know where getting Ghostbloods in this book who are well aware of Odium.  If it is Odium, talking to them would mean Brandon having to walk on a knife's edge to not spoil SA5.  Autonomy males more sense with PaAlm's manifesto.  Plus, the whole Trell on Taldain thing.

[NerdyAarakocra They/Them]

11 minutes ago, Nesh said:

Plus, the whole Trell on Taldain thing.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but...

that never happened.

[Nesh he/him]

Just now, NerdyAarakocra said:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but...

that never happened.

There's a foreman in the wite Sand Graphic Novels named Trell.

[NerdyAarakocra They/Them]

1 minute ago, Nesh said:

There's a foreman in the wite Sand Graphic Novels named Trell.

In all honesty, though, I can't find a connection to Scadrian Trell.

[Nesh he/him]

Look, Odium's a great villain, and I have no doubt that the Scadrians will have interactions/conflicts with him in the future.  However, there are other Shards out there.  Having Odium be behind everything makes the Cosmere narrow (Honestly, I feel we're already pushing that threshold, but that's another matter), and Brandon has been setting up Autonomy as a potential big player as of late.

[NerdyAarakocra They/Them]

16 minutes ago, Nesh said:

Look, Odium's a great villain, and I have no doubt that the Scadrians will have interactions/conflicts with him in the future.  However, there are other Shards out there.  Having Odium be behind everything makes the Cosmere narrow (Honestly, I feel we're already pushing that threshold, but that's another matter), and Brandon has been setting up Autonomy as a potential big player as of late.

Again, as I said:

12 hours ago, NerdyAarakocra said:

I think that the in-canon stuff supports Odium as Trell while the meta stuff supports Autonomy.

 

[Nesh he/him]

See, I don't think the canon really supports Odium.  The big argument is red eyes.  It's not a particularly strong argument, where things like the Letters, the Taldain essay, and PaAlm hint more toward Autonomy, all of which are canon.

[NerdyAarakocra They/Them]

But the red eyes are the least powerful argument, not the most! We have WOBs confirming the presence of Odium on Scadrial, Odium refocusing on the wider cosmere, and lightweaving not being a thing in the entire trilogy of books that focus on Taladin! Occam's Razor would suggest that Autonomy hasn't found a fourth planet with lightweaving. Paalm (there's no second capital) can be seen as influenced by Odium (irrational hatred), and possession is more of Odium's forte than Autonomy. Heck, Autonomy's Intent would go against possessing Paalm. Oh yeah, and there are five separate references to red and gold. Guess what? That's Odium's color scheme. Supporting Autonomy is a random guy named Trell. The letters... would suggest Odium, not Autonomy, as Hoid sees Odium as a bigger threat. And the Taladin essay states nothing that we didn't already know - Autonomy has been interfering in other worlds and splintering shards since time imemorial.

TL;DR is that there's a huge amount of evidence that you're discounting for Odium being Trell, while a lot of the evidence for Autonomy looks kinda weak.

That said, this proves nothing. Autonomy is fair game.

Odium's just a more likely candidate.