Discuss the Stormlight 5 Prologue Here

[TypicalShard]

12 hours ago, Nathrangking said:

Many people have been wondering whether the stormfather we see is he. Some of the behavior/appearance is strange. Which means that information that he gives us may be unreliable. Can we also stop for a minute to appreciate that Gavilar was far less competent than he thought that he was? It was so good to watch him be oblivious to all of the wonderful secrets playing out around him.

That rant he goes on after he says a Herald has died really reminds me of how Fuzz acted. His manifestation is also really weird to me. 

A... ᴀ Hᴇʀᴀʟᴅ ʜᴀs ᴅɪᴇᴅ. Nᴏ, I'ᴍ ɴᴏᴛ ʀᴇᴀᴅʏ. Tʜᴇ Oᴀᴛʜᴘᴀᴄᴛ... Nᴏ! Tʜᴇʏ ᴍᴜsᴛɴ'ᴛ sᴇᴇ! Tʜᴇʏ ᴍᴜsᴛɴ'ᴛ ᴋɴᴏᴡ!

Ok this really sounds like someone's been hiding from the Heralds. And it makes me really lean towards the Tanavast. But then again Odium seems positive they killed him and to the ability to hide from everyone so thoroughly, he would have to be absolutely cracked considering he's only a dead god.

Edited March 31, 2022 by TypicalShard

[TypicalShard]

11 hours ago, Frustration said:

I was meaning a more active roll, like the Stormfather is doing his thing and Cultivation shows up and says something to the affect of "Go bond Dalinar."

And I think that the only time that the Stormfather says anything really mean was when he realises that Gavilar has only been in this for his own power.

He clearly has decided to appraoch bonding differently, however unless you want to say that there is another Bondsmith spren capable of giving the visions I think the Stormfather is the only valid candidate.

I would find it odd for the Stormfather, whose whole resistance to Dalinar is, especially in RoW, is predicated around the idea that spren are unchanging, to suddenly change his approach to bonding. 

Edited March 31, 2022 by TypicalShard

[+Oltux72]

34 minutes ago, TypicalShard said:

I would find it odd for the Stormfather, whose whole resistance to Dalinar is, especially in RoW, is predicated around the idea that spren are unchanging, to suddenly change his approach to bonding. 

The spren are unchanging. That means their attitudes are constant. But they can learn. That means that they can be flexible in the way they deem best to attain a constant goal.

[Aon Tia]

13 hours ago, honorblades said:

I am still confused by this part I think. So is it:

- 'The Words' the Stormfather mentioned are the Bondsmith Oaths, or at least ideas that would put you in the right mindset to speak them?

- The literal words of the Oathpact are within the text of The Way of Kings?

I think what is happening here is that Stormlight is lying to or not telling him the whole truth to Gavilar. the words in the Wya of Kings are clearly the first oath for becoming a Radiant.

But if Gavilar had found the words, he would have become a Bondsmith. and we know that a Bondsmith, if and when learns to use his full powers, can re create Oathpact, can replace the original Heralds. 

That is literally one if the things that Dalinar is going to attempt in book 5, it seems.

that is probably what SF meant when he said to Gavilar that you can become a herald. in a very round about way, but hey! you can do it, if you want to.

 

Also, the prologue has completely blown my mind. Untill yesterday, i had no idea that we had a theory about the whereabouts of Chanarach. Reading this, and that another Herald had died in the same year as Gavilar, probably same month, or same week even, also explains how Brandon has confirmed that Taln never broke! wow!! consider me mind blown.

Also hats off to the foreshadowing, chapter 10, WoR:

Spoiler

Shallan believes the world is ending and it is her fault.

 Chapter 93, RoW

Spoiler

Shallan represented the very thing they all said they would never do. The thing they blamed for all their problems. The thing that had doomed Humankind.

 

and finally I am very happy to see that Gavilar was ultimately just a narcissistic fool who figured out so much but could not even figure out the words! 

I also totally disliked how he manipulated Dalinar and kept him drunk because deep down he knew that his brother had the potential to be more and that scared the hell out of him.

 

[IndigoAjah]

The question isn't whether this obvious fake is the real Stormfather or not

 

It's whether the fake is Odium, an Unmade or Ishtar, or a new third party

 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 31, 2022 by IndigoAjah

[Ashbringer]

8 minutes ago, Aon Tia said:

Also, the prologue has completely blown my mind. Untill yesterday, i had no idea that we had a theory about the whereabouts of Chanarach. Reading this, and that another Herald had died in the same year as Gavilar, probably same month, or same week even, also explains how Brandon has confirmed that Taln never broke! wow!! consider me mind blown.

Pretty sure it was the same hour 

And what's funny is, it seems like these two events were entirely unrelated. Unless Axindweth is a Ghostblood and/or they helped guide the two events to happen at the same time, but even that doesn't make sense.

... and hang on. Ulim came over to Roshar before this Herald died. That's interesting.

[Friendshipspren]

The similarity between both gavilar and rayse wanting eternal war to train the planet is something tho 

[StanLemon]

I'm thinking even though the Everstorm was building up to bypass the Oathpact, it still needed a Herald to break to open the floodgates and go beyond the point of no return 

[Kallor]

18 minutes ago, Friendshipspren said:

The similarity between both gavilar and rayse wanting eternal war to train the planet is something tho 

Another is how they both die I guess. 

[Bnaya]

A couple things I have noticed when reading the transcripted prologue-

1. "The Stormfather could lie? "Restares," Gavilar whispered. "Is he...?"

Yᴇs. Hᴇ's ᴀ Hᴇʀᴀʟᴅ.

Gavilar felt cold, as if he were standing in the highstorm, ice seeping through his skin and seeking his heart. Those eyes... "What are you," Gavilar whispered, hoarse.

Tʜᴇ ʙɪɢɢᴇsᴛ ғᴏᴏʟ ᴏғ ᴛʜᴇᴍ ᴀʟʟ, the Stormfather said, ᴀɴᴅ ᴛʜᴇ ᴛʜɪɴɢ ᴛʜᴀᴛ ʜᴀs ᴍɪsᴄᴀʟᴄᴜʟᴀᴛᴇᴅ. Gᴏᴏᴅʙʏᴇ, Gᴀᴠɪʟᴀʀ. I ʜᴀᴠᴇ sᴇᴇɴ ᴀ ɢʟɪᴍᴘsᴇ ᴏғ ᴡʜᴀᴛ ɪs ᴄᴏᴍɪɴɢ, ᴀɴᴅ I ᴡɪʟʟ ɴᴏᴛ ᴘʀᴇᴠᴇɴᴛ ɪᴛ."

I think it imply that the stormfaker is one of the heralds, probably Ishar.

2. "No, no, no," Restares said, uncharacteristically firm. "That's not how you were supposed to do this. I wanted the honor of men to return; I wanted us to explore what made those Radiants so grand, before things went wrong." He ran his hand through his thinning hair. "Before I... I made them go wrong."

It sound like Kelek was responsible for the recreance.

3. "Aɴᴅ ᴛʜᴇɴ sʜᴇ ғᴇʟʟ. Sʜᴇ ᴡᴀs ᴛᴏᴏ sᴍᴀʟʟ ᴀ ʙᴇɪɴɢ, ɴᴏᴛ sᴛʀᴏɴɢ ᴇɴᴏᴜɢʜ ᴛᴏ ᴜᴘʜᴏʟᴅ ᴀɴ ᴇɴᴛɪʀᴇ ᴘᴇᴏᴘʟᴇ. Iᴛ ᴀʟʟ ᴄᴀᴍᴇ ᴄʀᴀsʜɪɴɢ ᴅᴏᴡɴ. Aɴᴅ sᴏ, sᴏᴍᴇ ʙʀᴀᴠᴇ ᴍᴇɴ ᴀɴᴅ ᴡᴏᴍᴇɴ, Rᴀᴅɪᴀɴᴛs, ᴅɪᴅ sᴏᴍᴇᴛʜɪɴɢ ᴛʜᴀᴛ ʜᴀᴅ ᴛᴏ ʙᴇ ᴅᴏɴᴇ: ᴛʀᴀᴘᴘɪɴɢ Mɪsʜʀᴀᴍ ɪɴ ᴀ ɢᴇᴍsᴛᴏɴᴇ ᴛᴏ ᴘʀᴇᴠᴇɴᴛ ʜᴇʀ ғʀᴏᴍ ᴅᴇsᴛʀᴏʏɪɴɢ ᴀʟʟ ᴏғ Rᴏsʜᴀʀ. Tʜᴇ sɪᴅᴇ ᴇғғᴇᴄᴛ ᴏғ ᴛʜᴀᴛ ᴇᴠᴇɴᴛ ᴄʀᴇᴀᴛᴇᴅ ᴛʜᴇ ᴘᴀʀsʜᴍᴇɴ" 

the words of the stormfaker. If we believe him, mishram fail not because of the radiants. She fail on her own and was about to cause damage to all roshar so the radiants trap her. Maybe its implying she is the spren of roshar like someone suggested.

Also: "Ba-Ado-Mishram. Granter of forms. Their other god. The one who could rival him. The one we betrayed." 

restares words. I think it curios, and implying she could rival odium! And why Kelek think about it as a betrayal?

 

[Aon Tia]

44 minutes ago, Bnaya said:

I think it imply that the stormfaker is one of the heralds, probably Ishar.

Yes, seems possible. Especially since stormfaker could sense when a herald died. Something that SF can not do, I think. 
Ishar or Shallash as a friend of mine @Honorless suggested. Seeing that stormfaker might have lightweaving ability. 
 

46 minutes ago, Bnaya said:

It sound like Kelek was responsible for the recreance

Kelek has said that he was there at the time of trapping of BaM, he might have played a more direct part in her trapping, like sharing of crucial information on how to do it, etc so yea does not surprise me that he feels responsible. 
 

48 minutes ago, Bnaya said:

Ba-Ado-Mishram. Granter of forms. Their other god. The one who could rival him. The one we betrayed." 

This one is very curious. 
But this would make more sense if stormfaker is an unmade. 
then he is saying about BaM their other god, who could rival stormfaker unmade. May be this stormfaker unmade betrayed BaM out of jealousy. Because she was amassing too much power.

[Honorless]

I think StormFaker is Shalash.

1) We know that she was present at the party.

2) I don't know if she ever reclaimed her Honorblade but she does mention going to Shinovar. So StormFaker could just be an illusion.

3.A) If what StormFaker said about the Heraldic Oathpact being hidden in the Way of Kings is a complete lie... it might make sense for Shalash to lie. Her Divine Attributes are Creative and Honest. As an inverse of the former, she destroys art that depicts herself, maybe as an inverse of the latter, she's a compulsive liar

3.B ) I was talking with @Friendshipspren and @Aon Tia and they mentioned, if it wasn't all just a lie, she has motive. She might want out of the Oathpact. Or she might want to get Taln out.

4) Finally, when Jezrien died, the Stormfather did not seem to notice anything. The other Heralds did. Why would StormFaker be able to sense what is presumed to be Chanaranach's death? You know who would be able to feel a Herald's death? A fellow Herald

I'm pretty sure that entity was not the Stormfather. I don't know about the Stormfather's capability to lie or whatever as a spren. But he certainly didn't feel like the Stormfather. The personality felt quite different. And the appearance too. The Stormfather hated the Recreance Knights for breaking their Oaths, this entity did not seem to. And he straight up noped when Gavilar said something close to the First Ideal of the Knights Radiant. Instead he said he was closer when Gavilar demanded power.

Edited March 31, 2022 by Honorless
Edit:Oh hey, at the same time, Aon Tia!

[ElMonoEstupendo]

I flip-flop between StormFaker and StormLier. I really really like the idea that there's a whole lot more to the Stormfather than we've seen, that he's been deliberately recalcitrant and reluctant with Dalinar, and is manipulative to the level of the other Shards. Let's not forget that he's both the Cognitive Shadow of Tanavast and the spren of the storms. There are so many times where he's being straight-up wrong about what is possible, and leans heavily into just being the Storm when we know he's not.

Also! He did not expect to be bonded by Dalinar.

Quote

I AM THE SLIVER OF THE ALMIGHTY HIMSELF! the voice said, sounding angry. I AM THE STORMFATHER. I WILL NOT LET MYSELF BE BOUND IN SUCH A WAY AS TO KILL ME!

Words of Radiance

Dalinar being a Bondsmith was not what he expected to happen, at least if the above isn't an act. It seemed at the time he was angling just for the Knights Radiant to be refounded, but perhaps there was more.

On a separate note, I don't think Chanarach has to have broken-broken in order to bring the True Desolation, if she is indeed Shallan's mother. A few points:

• The Everstorm is what circumvented the Oathpact, and it started accumulating in the CR "centuries" before.
• Nale hints that Ulim could only have made it across if there was a Connection or bridge to Braize (the Everstorm).
• Shallan remembers her mother as "brave", which is Chana's divine attribute. But the Heralds are supposed to have gone nuts and to some extent subverted their natures.
• Chana's family is strongly connected to her. The Heralds don't seem to have had families otherwise. I speculate that this both:
  • Allowed her to stave off the madness by sharing the burden. Like a Prof-style gifting. All the Davar children are slightly nuts.
  • Blew the Braize connection wide open when she returned there, allowing the Everstorm to grow faster and further and more and more voidspren to make it across.
• I'd guess then that the initial connection that allows the Everstorm to initially slowly build is between Ash and Taln, or perhaps just all the Heralds. One good reason why they are all supposed to return together.

[Sasukerinnegan]

The being likely isn’t the Stormfather. When Dalinar first bonded the Stormfather, his first demand to him was to discard his dead-eye blade Oathbringer. I find it odd that Gavilar would have a blade for so long and be trusted by the Stormfather. Again, the Stormfather doesn’t really feel the death of the Heralds, as far as we know. The Stormfather seems desperate for a new Herald but  doesn’t seem interested in a Radiant path.

The only clear theory seems to be that Shallan’s mother is Chanarach. That seems pretty much confirmed.

Also, it’s awesome to see how overrated Gavilar is. He has been shown as some kind of mastermind but in this book, he gets a lot of things wrong and seems more arrogant than competent. His insincerity is clear - he clearly has no interest in the Codes or the Way of Kings.

Btw, if new Heralds are so easy to create with a mere oath, why have the same Heralds been forced to undergo the oath time and again? Wouldn’t it be logical to have a new set of Heralds every 3-4 desolations or so? Again, why is only one post of Herald available? Whose post is it, since all the Heralds are alive or on Braize? One possible explanation is that the Stormfaker is Ishar, who has discovered anti Stormlight and is willing to kill himself so that a successor can emerge in his place. Perhaps that is what this scene is about - Ishar looking for a successor. But then why is Ishar hiding the oath from Gavilar? Why this over complicated approach and spren like approach to hiding the Heraldic Oaths?

Edit: Another important point - At no point in the vision does Honor call for a new set of Heralds to be refounded. He calls for the refounding of the Knights Radiant. Another point in favour of the Stormfaker.

Edited March 31, 2022 by Sasukerinnegan
Added point.

[Nathrangking]

4 minutes ago, Sasukerinnegan said:

Also, it’s awesome to see how overrated Gavilar is. He has been shown as some kind of mastermind but in this book, he gets a lot of things wrong and seems more arrogant than competent. His insincerity is clear - he clearly has no interest in the Codes or the Way of Kings.

He was a cynic and a narcissist. Everything was about him and his legacy. The codes and the Way of Kings were meant to serve him. The Irony is that his cynicism created true greatness. Dalinar, Elokhar, and Jasnah the legacy that he never wanted became the very thing that ha most wanted.

[Crucible of Shards]

Regarding Shallan’s mom probably being the herald that died, has anyone thought about what’s going to go down when they meet? Because you know it’s going to happen. And I doubt that her time on Braize will have… improved… their relationship.

[Nathrangking]

2 minutes ago, Crucible of Shards said:

Regarding Shallan’s mom probably being the herald that died, has anyone thought about what’s going to go down when they meet? Because you know it’s going to happen. And I doubt that her time on Braize will have… improved… their relationship.

Just wait til she finds out what happened to the rest of the family.

[+Oltux72]

2 hours ago, Bnaya said:

2. "No, no, no," Restares said, uncharacteristically firm. "That's not how you were supposed to do this. I wanted the honor of men to return; I wanted us to explore what made those Radiants so grand, before things went wrong." He ran his hand through his thinning hair. "Before I... I made them go wrong."

Is he talking about Aharietiam or the Recreance? That is the big question.

2 hours ago, Bnaya said:

3. "Aɴᴅ ᴛʜᴇɴ sʜᴇ ғᴇʟʟ. Sʜᴇ ᴡᴀs ᴛᴏᴏ sᴍᴀʟʟ ᴀ ʙᴇɪɴɢ, ɴᴏᴛ sᴛʀᴏɴɢ ᴇɴᴏᴜɢʜ ᴛᴏ ᴜᴘʜᴏʟᴅ ᴀɴ ᴇɴᴛɪʀᴇ ᴘᴇᴏᴘʟᴇ. Iᴛ ᴀʟʟ ᴄᴀᴍᴇ ᴄʀᴀsʜɪɴɢ ᴅᴏᴡɴ. Aɴᴅ sᴏ, sᴏᴍᴇ ʙʀᴀᴠᴇ ᴍᴇɴ ᴀɴᴅ ᴡᴏᴍᴇɴ, Rᴀᴅɪᴀɴᴛs, ᴅɪᴅ sᴏᴍᴇᴛʜɪɴɢ ᴛʜᴀᴛ ʜᴀᴅ ᴛᴏ ʙᴇ ᴅᴏɴᴇ: ᴛʀᴀᴘᴘɪɴɢ Mɪsʜʀᴀᴍ ɪɴ ᴀ ɢᴇᴍsᴛᴏɴᴇ ᴛᴏ ᴘʀᴇᴠᴇɴᴛ ʜᴇʀ ғʀᴏᴍ ᴅᴇsᴛʀᴏʏɪɴɢ ᴀʟʟ ᴏғ Rᴏsʜᴀʀ. Tʜᴇ sɪᴅᴇ ᴇғғᴇᴄᴛ ᴏғ ᴛʜᴀᴛ ᴇᴠᴇɴᴛ ᴄʀᴇᴀᴛᴇᴅ ᴛʜᴇ ᴘᴀʀsʜᴍᴇɴ" 

 

the words of the stormfaker. If we believe him, mishram fail not because of the radiants. She fail on her own and was about to cause damage to all roshar so the radiants trap her. Maybe its implying she is the spren of roshar like someone suggested.

Yes. And finally the Recreance makes sense. They could not release her because that would have been even worse.

Yet it leaves an even bigger question. Why did they not document that and leave a big, fat warning with the Spren in Shadesmar?

2 hours ago, Bnaya said:

 

Also: "Ba-Ado-Mishram. Granter of forms. Their other god. The one who could rival him. The one we betrayed." 

restares words. I think it curios, and implying she could rival odium! And why Kelek think about it as a betrayal?

Because the humans betrayed Odium. He was their god.

1 hour ago, Honorless said:

4) Finally, when Jezrien died, the Stormfather did not seem to notice anything. The other Heralds did. Why would StormFaker be able to sense what is presumed to be Chanaranach's death? You know who would be able to feel a Herald's death? A fellow Herald

I'm pretty sure that entity was not the Stormfather. I don't know about the Stormfather's capability to lie or whatever as a spren. But he certainly didn't feel like the Stormfather. The personality felt quite different. And the appearance too

Because Jezrien did not go to Braize. All you need to do is watch the Honorblades. Jezrien's Blade did not dematerialize. Taln's did. So the Blade of the Herald dieing that day vanished.

[Friendshipspren]

Brando sent an email with  the written version of the prologue . SF's words aren't CAPITALIZED. So more evidence for stormfaker

Also @Honorless when does shalash say she wants to go to shinovar ? 

 

Edited March 31, 2022 by Friendshipspren

[Trutharchivist]

18 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Because Jezrien did not go to Braize. All you need to do is watch the Honorblades. Jezrien's Blade did not dematerialize. Taln's did. So the Blade of the Herald dieing that day vanished.

Wouldn't help the Stormfather unless the Highstorm happened to pass over Shinovar at the moment. And even if so, he wouldn't be able to be completely sure.

[Pagerunner]

Just now, Friendshipspren said:

Brando sent an email with  the written version of the prologue . SF's words aren't CAPITALIZED. So more evidence for stormfaker

That's how they looked for the Oathbringer previews on Tor.com. The formatting doesn't get finalized until the end of the process.

[+ShardlessVessel]

49 minutes ago, Sasukerinnegan said:

Btw, if new Heralds are so easy to create with a mere oath, why have the same Heralds been forced to undergo the oath time and again? Wouldn’t it be logical to have a new set of Heralds every 3-4 desolations or so?

A Knight Radiant is also created with a "mere oath". Why can't the Heralds be the same? Their bond is called the OATHpact, and it was made with Honor, the Shard of Oaths. Obviously, there's more to it than just saying some words - just like it is for a Radiant - but the first step may very well be to say the right words and mean them.

That said, I never liked the Oathpact much. You get ten people, bind them together and then throw them at a planet and expect them to withstand torture forever. And when they break under the torture, you expect them to lead and prepare the people for a massive war, then fight in that war knowing that when (not if, when) they die they will have to go back to the torture. And you expect them to never falter. This was never sustainable.

[Honorless]

25 minutes ago, Friendshipspren said:

 

Also @Honorless when does shalash say she wants to go to shinovar ? 

 

She went to Shinovar, and stayed there for a while

Quote

“They are … unpredictable,” the Herald said. “I eventually left them behind. They tried to kill me, but that I could take. It was when they started to worship me…” Ash crossed her arms, pulling them tight. “They had legends … prophecies about the coming of this Return. I didn’t believe it would ever happen. Didn’t want to believe.”

 

[Pathfinder]

So I know this is a stretch but I just want to put this down someplace so if I turn out right I can say I called it. I think the “stormfaker” is tanavast. In the WoB that Brandon confirmed that tanavast was dead, he did specify that a vessels death is a long event. Further he specified that as of the time of way of kings, tanavast is fully dead. So theoretically tanavast could still have been running around meddling like 

Spoiler

preservation

was, all the way up to the time of the shattered plains. It would explain the personality shift. WoB below

 

Wetlander

Did the Splintering happen before the Recreance?

Brandon Sanderson

I will reveal this as we go. However, be aware that in the past, when a Shard was killed, the person holding it, it is a slow burn to actually kill someone; because power cannot be destroyed. So, what it means to be killed means something a little different in these cases.

Hoser

Did Tanavast survive Honor's splintering?

Brandon Sanderson

Tanavast is dead. Good question. However, that is as of the start of The Way of Kings.

Hoser

So he could have survived the Splintering...

Brandon Sanderson

He could have survived the Splintering.

Hoser

...as a mortal...

Brandon Sanderson

Well, he could have survived for a time, but then he could not have then...

Hoser

...passed away in his sleep...

Brandon Sanderson

Right.

Steelheart Seattle signing (Oct. 14, 2013)

 

 

[Necessary Eagle]

8 hours ago, Ashbringer said:

I'm somewhat more curious as to what kickstarted these things.

Odium wrote four secret novels.