The Set as agents of Odium?

[NerdyAarakocra]

Hello, assorted sanderfans! I have just finished reading the first few chapters of The Lost Metal, and it looks like things are getting spicy.

I'm pretty convinced that the Set is following Odium at this point. Odium is preparing for conquest of the Cosmere, and Scadrial looks like his first target. Here are some reasons why I think so.

1. As Taravangian ascended and became Odium near the end of RoW, he decided that the rest of the Cosmere was ruled by ¨impostors.¨ In classic villain logic, he decides to take over the other worlds to ¨save¨ them. As Lost Metal is the first major Cosmere book to be released after RoW, narrative flow would make it a good target for invasion.
2. At the end of Bands of Mourning, we saw someone with red eyes, working for the Set and disguised as a human. That sounds a lot like a Fused. Lord Ladrian's internal monologue indicates that it is disguised, and there's an order of the Fused who have that as their sole ability, so... yeah.
3. From the blurb, we know that Harmoy's prescience doesn't work in a particular town, which is being influenced by the Set. That has served as an indicator that another person/shard who can see the future is in the area, and Odium is the best shard for seeing the future.

Please respond if you think differently!

[+Oltux72]

7 hours ago, NerdyAarakocra said:

1. As Taravangian ascended and became Odium near the end of RoW, he decided that the rest of the Cosmere was ruled by ¨impostors.¨ In classic villain logic, he decides to take over the other worlds to ¨save¨ them. As Lost Metal is the first major Cosmere book to be released after RoW, narrative flow would make it a good target for invasion.

The Set must go back to Waxillium's youth at least, possibly decades older. Hence it must have been established while Rayse held Odium.

[offer]

10 hours ago, NerdyAarakocra said:

Hello, assorted sanderfans! I have just finished reading the first few chapters of The Lost Metal, and it looks like things are getting spicy.

I'm pretty convinced that the Set is following Odium at this point. Odium is preparing for conquest of the Cosmere, and Scadrial looks like his first target. Here are some reasons why I think so.

1. As Taravangian ascended and became Odium near the end of RoW, he decided that the rest of the Cosmere was ruled by ¨impostors.¨ In classic villain logic, he decides to take over the other worlds to ¨save¨ them. As Lost Metal is the first major Cosmere book to be released after RoW, narrative flow would make it a good target for invasion.
2. At the end of Bands of Mourning, we saw someone with red eyes, working for the Set and disguised as a human. That sounds a lot like a Fused. Lord Ladrian's internal monologue indicates that it is disguised, and there's an order of the Fused who have that as their sole ability, so... yeah.
3. From the blurb, we know that Harmoy's prescience doesn't work in a particular town, which is being influenced by the Set. That has served as an indicator that another person/shard who can see the future is in the area, and Odium is the best shard for seeing the future.

Please respond if you think differently!

1. The Set were active even before Taravngian`s ascention (unless era 2 is more in the future than we thought). So if this theory is correct either they were founded with Rayse`s intervention or Odium came after the founding.

2. Red can be any corrupted investiture in the cosmere so a lot of invested creatures will probably have those eyes.

3. Odium is not the best shard for seeing the future. He is better than Honor but Cultivation is better. With Preservation`s plan in era 1 maybe Preservation (and Harmony) is also better than Odium.

 

In conclusion I think that it is a valid theory but Trell=Autonomy is more likely (and maybe Odium is also involved).

[NerdyAarakocra]

7 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

The Set must go back to Waxillium's youth at least, possibly decades older. Hence it must have been established while Rayse held Odium.

4 hours ago, offer said:

1. The Set were active even before Taravangian's ascension (unless era 2 is more in the future than we thought). So if this theory is correct either they were founded with Rayse's intervention or Odium came after the founding.

2. Red can be any corrupted investiture in the Cosmere so a lot of invested creatures will probably have those eyes.

3. Odium is not the best shard for seeing the future. He is better than Honor but Cultivation is better. With Preservation`s plan in era 1 maybe Preservation (and Harmony) is also better than Odium.

 

In conclusion I think that it is a valid theory but Trell=Autonomy is more likely (and maybe Odium is also involved).

Good points! I think, however, that Rayse had a similar plan to Tangranavian - in his deal with Dalinar, he makes a reference to sending agents out into the cosmere.

I actually didn't know about the corrupted Investiture thing, but I think that the disguise plus the red eyes still suggest Odium's involvement. Cultivation is probably not involved with many events outside of Roshar (although Cultivation being Trell would be a great twist).

While Coppermind states that Odium is unlikely to be Trell, as Harmony knows of Odium but can't identify Trell, I think that this argument has flaws. Shards can work under the noses of other shards, after all. I doubt that Hoid is the only person who has practiced god-dodging, and if Rayse knows how to hide his Identity, Harmony wouldn't be able to tell who's on Scadrial.

Finally, I think that we don't know enough about Autonomy's intents to concretely say that she's Trell. Autonomy might be allied with Odium (it's a possibility that she helped him splinter some shards), so its possible that they're working together.

[Frustration]

6 hours ago, offer said:

2. Red can be any corrupted investiture in the cosmere so a lot of invested creatures will probably have those eyes.

Yes, but Brandon said that men of "red and gold" are important, and Gold is Odium's motif

[teknopathetic]

I am hoping against hope that Trell is the Dor and the Ire, but I know it probably isnt 

[NerdyAarakocra]

19 hours ago, teknopathetic said:

I am hoping against hope that Trell is the Dor and the Ire, but I know it probably isnt 

That would be a nice twist, especially considering that the Ire has shown interest in Scadrial before.

[cometaryorbit]

I always liked the Dor theory too, but Autonomy being specifically not mentioned in the RoW epigraphs letter converted me to the Trell-Autonomy theory.

[Proletariat]

TBH I'm increasingly won to the idea that it's Autonomy corrupting what's left of Ruin, and the destruction of the planet is the alternative to its subjugation under Odium.

Quote

 

“The ash comes again,” the man said through bloody lips, his voice strangely grating. “The world will fall to it. You will get what you deserve, and all will wither beneath a cloud of blackness and a blanket of burned bodies made ash.”

Marasi gritted her teeth, working on the rusty-looking spike, slick with blood.

“Your end,” the voice whispered. “Your end comes. Either in ash, or at the hands of the men of gold and red. Gold and—”

 

Quote

 

"You are fools! One day, the men of gold and red, bearers of the final metal, will come to you. And you will be ruled by them. Worship. Worship Trell and wait ..."

 

 

Trell wants the planet gone based on his worshippers' statements, and has accelerated that plan. If being ruled by the men of red and gold is the alternative (and this being ruled by red and gold sounds like the threat of Odium) to ash, then it means Trell has been thwarted if that rule comes to pass. Whoever the men of gold and red are they don't share an agenda with Trell.

The two counterposed possibilities of annihilation or conquest alongside the fact that Harmony has agents on Roshar and is aware of Odium, but has admitted to being unable to identify the shard makes it seem less likely. Plus the Ghostbloods deal pretty happily with Odium's forces, despite presumably being hostile to the idea of blowing up Scadrial with Kelsier on it. It would also spoil the next Stormlight book which will feature Odium heavily, and the question of whether he gets to leave the planet and wage war. 

There's also the fact that this Trellium stuff is clearly a corruption of a god metal due to the rust, rather than its own thing entirely. There's only one silvery metal we know of that's not only able to give someone like Bleeder F-Steel and A-Steel and F-Gold to this new henchmen, and that's Atium not Raysium.

[Ashbringer]

On 10/7/2022 at 10:33 PM, Proletariat said:

There's also the fact that this Trellium stuff is clearly a corruption of a god metal due to the rust, rather than its own thing entirely. There's only one silvery metal we know of that's not only able to give someone like Bleeder F-Steel and A-Steel and F-Gold to this new henchmen, and that's Atium not Raysium.

I honestly think this is probably what we'll find. The red spots sound much more like corruption than a god metal innately being speckled, and it behaves like atium is known to behave. 

There's also the point where the trellium spike started repelling from the other Hemalurgic spikes, which reminds me of the mists moving away from active Hemalurgy. More corrupting.

As for whether it's Odium or Autonomy... not sure. Probably one of the two, unless it's Ati back from the dead-dead or Discord somehow working behind Harmony's back. I'd lean more Autonomy, but mainly because Odium spreading major influence over Scadrial would be kinda major spoilers for how SA 5 might turn out. 

[NerdyAarakocra]

I just want to point out that Autonomy and Odium have worked together in the past.

[Proletariat]

On 14/10/2022 at 0:14 AM, NerdyAarakocra said:

I just want to point out that Autonomy and Odium have worked together in the past.

That's true, but win or lose Odium is meant to be bound to Roshar by the duel and can only send agents unless it's a draw (and Brandon decides to spoil that ending in TLM). Kelsier also is trying to figure out how to leave Scadrial using the Rosharan example, and as of this book Kelsier cannot so that likely means none of Odium's agents have gotten off of Roshar by the time of TLM either.

I think for the publishing of the next era of Mistborn it will also make things harder if the main villain of this book is revealed to be Odium. All of the next era's Mistborn books are meant to be released before Stormlight 6 so if Odium's plans for Scadrial have heaps progressed then Brandon will have to both dance around spoiling Stormlight, and overloading the audience on a never ending Roshar v Scadrial arc all the way from now until we're all almost retirement age. 

Also we can infer from the Sixth of the Dusk sequel that in the space age that relationship has broken down in some form given that Sixth is going off planet to start a non-aligned alliance of sorts to stand against both Roshar and Scadrial. WoB also indicates Rayse would've gone after Autonomy after killing Honour. Autonomy or their avatars may support killing shards with pretty counterposed intents to their own like Dominion on Sel, but that doesn't mean they also support Odium conquering the cosmere nor does there seem to be any good will in the relationship. 

None of which eliminates Odium as a possibility, but certainly does make it seem like it's less likely than it might at first appear when we're shown the familiar red eyes.

[Frustration]

3 hours ago, Proletariat said:

All of the next era's Mistborn books are meant to be released before Stormlight 6 

Actually Era 3 will be published between SA 6-10

[Ixthos]

My own tin-foil hat theory is that the Set was founded by Shallan, and as a direct attack against the Ghostbloods.

(Not sure if this counts as a spoiler or not, but the rest is based on Thaidakar's identity:

Spoiler

It would add a nice ironic element to the stories that, in two series, the protagonists or allies of one set of good guys are the enemies of the other set of good guys. Kelsier was a hero in Mistborn, but the Ghostbloods are antagonists in SA. If Shallan founded the Set - as a relatively young organisation - to gain a foothold in Kelsier's territory, well ...

[Proletariat]

40 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Actually Era 3 will be published between SA 6-10

 

I'm not sure that's correct based on what Brandon has said in a few places. After TLM it sounds like the Secret Projects, the Rock novella, maybe that boat load of mummies book, maybe some Elantris sequels and then next Mistborn era and then once that's over Stormlight 6 - 10.

 

Quote

Adam Horne

What are you anticipating the length of the books for [Mistborn] Era Three and Era Four?

Brandon Sanderson

Era Three will go back to Era One lengths. The goal is, once I finish Stormlight Five, to write all three books in Era Three together, like I did for Era One. And this means that the releases in between might be kind of other sorts of things. Basically, I'm gonna have to take three years and write those books before we release any of them. And that'll be great for continuity, and for a lot of cool reasons, but it means that... 2023 is hopefully Stormlight Five. (I say "hopefully" because, again, Stormlight Five is the end of a series, so it is possible of all of them that one takes longer. We'll see.) And then, after Stormlight Five, then the releases will probably be some things for a couple of years until I get Mistborn ready.

One of these things is likely to be a non-Cosmere collection; a collection of all my short fiction that is not Cosmere and not Legion. So all of your Defending Elysiums and things like that, collected in one collection, like we did with Arcanum Unbounded. There is a decent chance that I will be getting The Apocalypse Guard into shape, at long last, and releasing that with Dan Wells working with me on those. There is a decent chance that we'll have a prose version of Dark One, because Dan and I are working on that, but we'll see. Who knows. And then there's the perpetual project that I've really started to think that is probably going to happen, where White Sand of all my unpublished novels is the strongest, and I think that if I put it through my current revision process, I'd get a really strong revision, send it to beta readers, and put it through another really strong revision, it would be of publishable quality. I would generally update it to match the events of the graphic novels, and then we would release a prose version, probably, that is the same as the graphic novels. But we'll see. We'll see if that actually happens. For now, we do have the collection of the three graphic novels coming out soon-ish, I hope. And it's looking really nice; Isaac's been putting a ton of work into that.

So, those are all things that you could see in the interim, between. What you're not gonna get is a Mistborn novel or a Stormlight novel for a number of years, as I work on the Mistborn books. In a perfect world, I'm writing Elantris Two and Three then, as well. So I get done with those five books, each of which I plan at 200,000 words (which is the length of Elantris and the original Mistborn trilogy). Which, when I work on a Stormlight book, I do 400,000 to 500,000 words in eighteen months. And so, we would see how these other ones would turn out. One a year, plus change, basically. And then I would jump to Stormlight six

YouTube Livestream 30 (April 7, 2021)

Quote

TXPX

I just wanted to ask you if the Elantris sequels are still in the pipeline between SA 5 and 6 or is Mistborn era 3 the only thing in that timeframe?

Brandon Sanderson

I'm going to have to see. My goal is to write Mistborn era three straight through, without publishing the first one until the last one is done. If so, I'll need a break between books, but I don't know if I can squeeze Elantris sequels in there or not. I plan to try, but we'll see.

Cann0nFodd3r

Any reason why you are going with that strategy for Era 3?

Brandon Sanderson

I feel that the method I used for the original trilogy lent it some interesting advantages. I want to try the process again, and see if it works for me the same way. Mostly, I like experimenting with different kinds of story-making processes, and this is a good opportunity to play with this one again.

General Reddit 2021 (Jan. 19, 2021)

Quote

Questioner

In between the first five [Stormlight books] and the second five, are you personally taking a ten-year break?

Brandon Sanderson

No, it shouldn't be ten years. I do plan to write the third Mistborn trilogy. (Second trilogy being four books. But, you know.) I do plan to write the second Mistborn trilogy before I do that. But those should be 200K words, which means I should be able to write one, do a novella, write one, do a novella, write one. So we're talking about probably that taking me five years to do all those. And then I come back. So it's probably a five-year break, would be my guess, during which you get a trilogy of Mistborn books. We have to work in Elantris there somewhere, but I have to stay focused at the same time, so it's kind of hard.

The Great American Read: Other Worlds with Brandon Sanderson (Oct. 25, 2018)

Quote

chrismansell

Given the planned length of the Stormlight Archive, is the Mistborn trilogies plan still in place at all?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. Second trilogy will probably be written after Stormlight 5.

/r/fantasy AMA 2013 (April 15, 2013)

Quote

clayton_japes

Is the plan still to take a break after book five to do the modern day Mistborn trilogy or does the schedule of a new Stormlight book every two to three years mean that the second set of proper Mistborn books will fit in between those smaller gaps?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, that's still the plan. Stormlight 5 is an end of a distinct arc, and Mistborn era three's outlines are getting very close to being done. This schedule makes a great deal of sense to me.

Stormlight Three Update #1 (July 17, 2015)

 

[NerdyAarakocra]

5 hours ago, Proletariat said:

That's true, but win or lose Odium is meant to be bound to Roshar by the duel and can only send agents unless it's a draw (and Brandon decides to spoil that ending in TLM). Kelsier also is trying to figure out how to leave Scadrial using the Rosharan example, and as of this book Kelsier cannot so that likely means none of Odium's agents have gotten off of Roshar by the time of TLM either.

I think for the publishing of the next era of Mistborn it will also make things harder if the main villain of this book is revealed to be Odium. All of the next era's Mistborn books are meant to be released before Stormlight 6 so if Odium's plans for Scadrial have heaps progressed then Brandon will have to both dance around spoiling Stormlight, and overloading the audience on a never ending Roshar v Scadrial arc all the way from now until we're all almost retirement age. 

Also we can infer from the Sixth of the Dusk sequel that in the space age that relationship has broken down in some form given that Sixth is going off planet to start a non-aligned alliance of sorts to stand against both Roshar and Scadrial. WoB also indicates Rayse would've gone after Autonomy after killing Honour. Autonomy or their avatars may support killing shards with pretty counterposed intents to their own like Dominion on Sel, but that doesn't mean they also support Odium conquering the cosmere nor does there seem to be any good will in the relationship. 

None of which eliminates Odium as a possibility, but certainly does make it seem like it's less likely than it might at first appear when we're shown the familiar red eyes.

Those are good points. However, what looks likely is that Odium will be rebuffed on Scadrial.

If he's Trell, that is.

[Ashbringer]

Odium could have agents enacting his will on Scadrial, just not his personal influence (ie Fused). But based on what we've seen with Trell's abilities, it seems like there is personal influence and Investiture.

One other thing to add to the mix: Axindweth, the Feruchemist that showed up on Roshar and somehow had a gem with a Voidspren in it. Does anyone think she relates to the Set? Because I don't think she's a Ghostblood.

I've also been trying to find anything on the timeframe of the Set and Trell interfering on Scadrial, because Era 2 happens at most 10 years post-SA 5, so at most... 20 years after Gavilar's death? I thought Trell had been happening on Scadrial for a while.

[Frustration]

5 hours ago, Proletariat said:

 

I'm not sure that's correct based on what Brandon has said in a few places. After TLM it sounds like the Secret Projects, the Rock novella, maybe that boat load of mummies book, maybe some Elantris sequels and then next Mistborn era and then once that's over Stormlight 6 - 10.

 

 

Huh, could have sworn it was during.

Very well I stand corrected.

[ftl]

7 hours ago, Ashbringer said:

One other thing to add to the mix: Axindweth, the Feruchemist that showed up on Roshar and somehow had a gem with a Voidspren in it. Does anyone think she relates to the Set? Because I don't think she's a Ghostblood.

I thought she was with the ghostbloods?

(Stormlight 5 Prologue discussion)

Spoiler

In the prologue we find out that Thaidakar and the Ghostbloods were helping Gavilar start the desolation, and then Gavilar didn't hold up his end of the bargain. I thought Axindweth bringing a Voidspren was Thaidakar holding up his end of that deal.

 

[+mdross81]

22 hours ago, Ashbringer said:

I've also been trying to find anything on the timeframe of the Set and Trell interfering on Scadrial, because Era 2 happens at most 10 years post-SA 5, so at most... 20 years after Gavilar's death? I thought Trell had been happening on Scadrial for a while.

I'm willing to bet the Set may have been involved even earlier than this, but we get a couple of hints as to the timeframes for when Edwarn and Miles first got involved. Here's Miles from AoL chapter 17 (which takes place in Scadrian year 341):

Quote

Miles had started planning these robberies in the back of his mind ten years ago, when he'd realized that railway security was focused on the railcars.

Can't say for certain that he fell under Trell's influence at the same time, but supposing he did that would put it in 331.

That's around the same time that Edwarn went into hermit mode for a decade. Here's Wax confronting Mr. Suit in the AoL Epilogue:

Quote

From what I understand, you were hermitlike during the decade leading up to your 'death.'

That faked death occurred in 340, so going back a decade gives us the Scadrian year 330. So that's 10-11 Scadrian years ago. Converting between Scadrian's Earth-like days and years to Roshar's 20-hour days and 500-day years, that would be between around 8.7 and 9.6 Rosharan years. 

I believe that Brandon has said that all of MB Era 2 takes place in the 10-15 year time gap between the front and back half of SA. Assuming that the contest of champions (which is slated to occur around mid 1175 on Roshar) is roughly the end of the front half, then Miles began to plan the train robbery and Edwarn went hermitlike around late 1165 to late 1166 on Roshar.

That's somewhat intriguing because a number of big things happen on Roshar around that same timeframe: Shallan starting to bond Testment, Szeth being named Truthless, first contact between the listeners and the Alethi, and Axindweth giving Ulim to Venli.

[NerdyAarakocra]

3 hours ago, mdross81 said:

I'm willing to bet the Set may have been involved even earlier than this, but we get a couple of hints as to the timeframes for when Edwarn and Miles first got involved. Here's Miles from AoL chapter 17 (which takes place in Scadrian year 341):

Can't say for certain that he fell under Trell's influence at the same time, but supposing he did that would put it in 331.

That's around the same time that Edwarn went into hermit mode for a decade. Here's Wax confronting Mr. Suit in the AoL Epilogue:

That faked death occurred in 340, so going back a decade gives us the Scadrian year 330. So that's 10-11 Scadrian years ago. Converting between Scadrian's Earth-like days and years to Roshar's 20-hour days and 500-day years, that would be between around 8.7 and 9.6 Rosharan years. 

I believe that Brandon has said that all of MB Era 2 takes place in the 10-15 year time gap between the front and back half of SA. Assuming that the contest of champions (which is slated to occur around mid 1175 on Roshar) is roughly the end of the front half, then Miles began to plan the train robbery and Edwarn went hermitlike around late 1165 to late 1166 on Roshar.

That's somewhat intriguing because a number of big things happen on Roshar around that same timeframe: Shallan starting to bond Testment, Szeth being named Truthless, first contact between the listeners and the Alethi, and Axindweth giving Ulim to Venli.

I'm going to count that as evidence of Odium's activity on both worlds. Mostly the part with Axindweth.

 

[Ashbringer]

5 hours ago, NerdyAarakocra said:

I'm going to count that as evidence of Odium's activity on both worlds. Mostly the part with Axindweth.

It could also be another force. Odium I assume would have a hand in the Everstorm and all, but the rules for Shards (especially Odium) talking to people aren't exactly clear. Odium appeared to people he'd Invested, and also Taravangian and Dalinar.

All to say is I don't know how Odium could directly recruit a Feruchemist.

[NerdyAarakocra]

8 hours ago, Ashbringer said:

It could also be another force. Odium I assume would have a hand in the Everstorm and all, but the rules for Shards (especially Odium) talking to people aren't exactly clear. Odium appeared to people he'd Invested, and also Taravangian and Dalinar.

All to say is I don't know how Odium could directly recruit a Feruchemist.

True, but we know that his agents can go to other worlds, even if he's trapped. He can also directly contact the Fused that he's Invested, meaning that recruiting the power-hungry would be pretty easy.

[+mdross81]

14 hours ago, NerdyAarakocra said:

I'm going to count that as evidence of Odium's activity on both worlds. Mostly the part with Axindweth.

See, I think maybe it’s evidence of Autonomy on both worlds. I think maybe with Taln holding out for so long Rayse got desperate and maybe sought, or at the very least accepted, some help with his situation.  So Axindweth may have been recruited by Trell/the Set but working on Odium’s behalf as well. 

[Ashbringer]

5 hours ago, NerdyAarakocra said:

True, but we know that his agents can go to other worlds, even if he's trapped. He can also directly contact the Fused that he's Invested, meaning that recruiting the power-hungry would be pretty easy.

But the Fused shouldn't be able to leave Roshar because they're Cognitive Shadows. Too Invested to leave the Rosharan system. His "agents" would need to be regular Rosharans (and most likely humans to communicate offworld) he'd somehow convinced to fight for him, through Unmade influence or someone coming to Braize specifically.

Which is possible, based on several things, but I feel like we should have met this person before.