Firesong

And on this part, we don't really fully understand Metalminds in the case of how much one can fit into it. We know about limits to how much you can store at a time (as in, how much you can actively store, like, you can't store 100% of an attribute, outside of more discrete ones like individual memories). But like, we don't know how much you can store in total. Especially given the fact we know that Investiture can have different densities, so it could be possible that two Metalminds of the same size, both "full", can have different amounts of an attribute due to the Feruchemist knowing how to store it in a far denser manner. That is actually how I see the Bands of Mourning, Kelsier and the South Scadrians found a way to make the Investiture stupidly dense. So that it would be able to store more than a normal metalmind of its mass. And as stated, it is also sixteen metalminds which are thought of as one object as they are physically connected, not truly one metalmind. It would be like how like, The Collective Works of HP Lovecraft (combined into one book) is thought of as one thing due to physical connection, but it is still multiple separate stories. And yeah, we should drop this whole argument. Stormlight Spoilers:

I feel you misunderstand what a God Metal is. The reason God Metals work as they do is that they are literally made out of Investiture. You are using the Investiture that they are made of. The Investiture you gain is the Investiture that the God Metal is made out of. That is why it works the way it does. Metalminds are not made of Investiture, they are Invested, but they are not Investiture. They are normal metal that has Investiture put into it by the Feruchemist. When you burn them, you are drawing your own Investiture from it, along with using it as a gateway to Preservation to pull in more Investiture. This is due to the fact that, outside of the fact you get back the trait you stored into the Metalmind, it is simply normal Allomancy. Thus, my argument does remain consistent as you are not burning a God Metal, you are burning a standard allomantically viable metal. It is little different from burning pewter without compounding, just with an extra boost from what you stored into it. So I do believe that my b's are equivalent, as God Metals are irrelevant to this conversation. Here he essentially says that calling a God Metal Invested is a bit misleading, due to the fact it is Investiture. Here, he refers to things such as Hemalurgic Spikes (and by extension Metalminds), as being Invested. Ultimately, we can tell that Compounding is drawing on an outside source, that being Preservation. Instead of being purely from the metal itself and nothing else. If you want to assume that you are drawing extra Investiture from it as if you are burning a God Metal, you have to ask where that Investiture is coming from. You could say it comes from converting the mass directly into Investiture and using a larger portion of it, but that wouldn't be the case as that would also apply to normal Allomancy. Thus you would essentially be left with only the idea of it acting as a gateway to Preservation. I can see why you made the mistake, but it is fundamentally a mistake that is acting as the foundation of this argument. Also, I feel you would need more evidence to say that every single book is wrong and that Brandon is wrong about his own system. You are refuting both completely and utterly. Which I feel would need a far more extensively cited argument, but it also kind of inherently cannot be proven as you are stating that the books and Brandon are wrong and cannot be trusted. So we can't really move forward at all as you have already dismissed both primary sources as incorrect and as being invalid evidence.

Additional detail (saying it for them, not you, Alder), that is just how future sight works in the cosmere, it gets really messed up by other people with future sight. They have a destructive interference as it creates new possibilities of them responding to the future and acting in ways they wouldn't do otherwise, thus it branches apart into incoherence. So it isn't that it is "weak", it is just that the future isn't set in the cosmere, thus things like this make it even harder to discern it. Not going to give any context, but you do see this destructive interference effect in other cosmere books. It is a pretty fundamental mechanic in how future sight works. But yes, we don't know the true use of Lerasium (it having another use isn't a retcon, it was stated as early as the WoA Annotations), just a side-effect it has. It is likely going to be very important to Era 3 and 4. And no, you didn't spoil yourself on anything. You should know about the extra metals not in Era 1, as Harmony stated there are two more pairs left undiscovered. And God Metals are just a term for something you have already observed but didn't get a name for. The powers of the different metals also, while technically a spoiler, is not one that would ruin any plotpoints. Unlike things like Malatium, the powers of the metals are not big plot reveals. Avoid reading the Ars Arcanum for TLM, though. That one does have spoilers. Pretty sure BoM's does too. Avoid those ones. But otherwise, you are good.

Why thank you. That is much appreciated.

Ah, I see what is happening here. You are arguing against a point literally nobody is making. The extra energy in Compounding comes from Preservation. The Feruchemist stores Investiture into the Metalmind. They burn it and thus they get back not just what they stored into it, but also Investiture from Preservation, which they can then store back into the Metalmind. This is then repeated. As stated here, it is a burning of ones own metalminds. Which takes your own energy from the Metalminds, and also energy from Preservation. This is then stored back into ones Metalminds, which is repeated. Nobody was trying to argue that Compounding is just energy from Preservation. Just that that is where the extra energy is derived. Which is something explicitly supported by the text and the WoBs. I am claiming that you are claiming that all Metallic Arts are completely of Ruin, using this quote as evidence for my claim: As we know that the extra energy in Compounding is derived from mixing together Metalminds with Allomancy, with it coming from the Allomancy. Therefore, it would track that you are claiming that Allomancy takes in Ruinious Investiture instead of Preservation's Investiture. You also do agree that Hemalurgy is associated with Ruin. Therefore, it follows that you believe all three Metallic Arts to be of Ruin. It simply follows from the arguments that you are making. Evidence for it being powered by Allomancy: Thus, Compounding gains power from Allomancy, Allomancy is drawing power from Preservation, therefore Compounding gains power from Preservation. As it is axiomatic that for a, b, c ∈ X, if a R b and b R c, then a R c. That is simply saying that if element a is related to element b in a certain way, and element b is related to element c in the same manner, than it logically follows that elements a and c share that relation. (R defines a relationship, and ∈ means "is a member of...", such as how n ∈ ℝ means a number n which is a member of the Set of Real Numbers). You could make an argument that the relationship is not transitive, that is to say, the relationship between the elements within the given domain of discourse does not display the transitive property. I would argue that it is transitive. Due to the fact that the relationship given does make logical sense and fits with given evidence and observations. The concept of drawing from something is thus able to be thought of as retaining the transitive property. An example where this also holds transitivity, a Spike draws power from a victim, and a recipient draws power from the spike. Therefore, the recipient draws power from the Spiritweb. If this is not the case, that would mean that the recipient gains power from something else that the Spike did not draw upon. We could also try to make an assumption that it is not true, to do a proof by contradiction like how one can prove the irrationality of the square root of 2 by assuming it is rational. a R b and b R c, then a ¬R c. This would mean that if one gains power from Allomancy, and Allomancy gains power from Preservation, one cannot, by logical extension, assume that one gains power from Preservation. Due to the fact stated by the b R c relation of "Allomancy is drawing power from Preservation", we can only assume that, due to the fact that a ¬R c, that b R c is false. Following from this, we have to redefine the element c, as c is not Preservation. We know that the Magic Systems on Scadrial are born from the interaction of the Shards with the Planet, and that Allomancy is indeed born from this interaction, that Allomancy must be related to one of the two Shards. Thus we arrive at the possible set {p,r}, but we have proven that c is not p. Thus it reduces the set to {r}, meaning that the source of Investiture for Allomancy would have to be Ruin. But the thing is, we know that Allomancy comes from Preservation, therefore, the fact that a ¬R c necessarily implies that b ¬R c, which proves that a ¬R c is false as it being true leads to a contradiction of the known facts. Therefore, either Compounding draws energy from Preservation, or Allomancy is of Ruin. You claim that Compounding draws from Ruin, which fits up perfectly with the second possibility. But I feel that at this point, we should not simply look at he logical implications that arise from the assumption that Compounding draws from Ruin, but also look at the evidence in order to decide on the probability of the two possibilities. Which I have already cited above, showing that Allomancy definitively draws from Preservation. (not fully related, but it would also have weirdness of like, why Lerasium, the body of Preservation, gives you Ruin's Invested Art, but also strongly Connects you Preservation.) In summary, we do not claim that all Investiture in Compounding comes from Preservation, and we never claimed that, if we did we misspoke, as that is a blatant falsehood. What we did say, however, is that the excess energy one gets from Compounding comes from Preservation, as it is gained through Allomancy, which draws from Preservation. And on Feruchemy not being fully End-Neutral, yeah, I agree. It is supported by Brandon, and I also thought up the theory myself as a way to explain away a few ways that it could potentially break physics. Like a headcanon that some of the energy in an Iron Metalmind is converted into potential energy, in order to make up for the way you can cheat Potential energy by reducing mass, going up, and then increasing it. I believe that a bit of your energy would go into making up for Potential Energy, thus you do not create energy out of nothing. Lets say a Twinborn is 60kg, and lets do a baseline of 1m for height. It would be 294.1995 J, then lets say they half their mass and go up to 50 metres, thus it would rise to 14709.98 J. But at their full mass it would be 29419.95 J, thus they would create 14709.97 J. I believe that this 14710 J is actually provided by the energy in the Metalmind. Which consequently means one wouldn't reach the exact mass as a little would be used up to make up for this. But the difference would be inconsequential, this instance it would be 163.6705 picograms of lost mass, or 0.000000000000164 kg. But I guess that is 98,564,660,133,926 atomic mass units, : P. I guess I could try to do an infinite series to find an exact value that would lead to the potential energy and mass lining up exactly, as technically that loss of 0.000000000000164 will change the value, but it would be by such an absolutely miniscule amount I would be measuring in femptojoules. But it is late and I am not in the mood, the change would also be too miniscule to matter. In fact, the fact it is this miniscule, and due to the fact you would have to find an Iron Ferring that has some ability to raise themselves up. I.e, a Crasher, of which there are only 3 ever. And the fact their tools aren't that advanced. It makes perfect sense that they wouldn't have the technology to detect a difference of 163 picograms. Thus they think everything is okay. PS: I apologize if I come off as aggressive, I am just passionate and can be rather blunt and I do not mean to hurt any feelings. I really do hope this all cleared it up for you.

He is religious, yes. But he is open about his belief about how some people use religion as a justification for terrible things, which is very much true. He does also in his books show religion as a valid road for finding comfort and guidance. For instance, many ardents are shown in a very positive light, as just good people that want to help grant spiritual guidance, for instance. It is ultimately a view that speaks about how religion can be used for good and evil alike. Which is the truth.

Mathmatician, how have you not seen how Compounding draws from Preservation? It is explicitly obvious as it takes power from Allomancy, which draws Investiture from Preservation. Therefore, what you are now arguing, is that Allomancy, Hemalurgy, and Feruchemy are all 100% ruin. You are continuously making less and less sense, and rejecting more and more of the text, as time goes on. I suggest you calm down, walk away from the computer for a second, and think through the arguments that you are attempting to make. Furthermore, Alder is not disproven by WoBs on Rosharan Magic systems. Brandon always avoids the question of what exactly counts and what the other systems are. He refuses to even answer if Fabrials are counted as one or multiple. Or how many systems Cultivation has, or really anything. He is very cagey about all of it. He never gave anything as definitive as you believe. He is only open about Surgebinding and Voidbinding making up 20 of them. Past that, he is keeping everything a secret for now. In fact, I feel that it is suggested that it would be another system of 10 sub-systems He goes back and forth, doesn't fully elaborate on things, and etc. Again, he is not as open as you claim. He implies that the Old Magic is either not its own entire magic system, or it is part of a new system. He once said Fabrials are the third, but that is contradicted by there being far more than ten Fabrials. Thus I take this one with a grain of salt. We have Altering, (Augmenters and Diminishers), Pairing (Conjoiners and Reversers), Warning, Surge (9 Surges), then Clocks, Attractors, Repulsers, Stabilizers, Drainers, Lifts, Suppressors, and Aura. Thus there are at least 22 fabrials. Which makes it not fit as the third. On it only replicating nine of the 10. Which claims they cannot replicate Adhesion. Which fits with how Adhesion is strange in general. And on his current canon on Atium, everyone can burn Atium, the reason that not everyone could during FE is due to the fact it was actually an Atium-Electrum alloy, and thus those that could burn it are Electrum mistings. Pure Atium only being able to be burned by certain people was old canon that has been revised retroactively. It is now an in-world misunderstanding of what they were actually burning. I personally am not convinced by a single thing you have said, and suggest you follow in Alder's footsteps of actually providing sources for your claims, you seem to have a tendency of simply making claims. The way you are doing it is a way a lot of people tend to do arguments that they cannot actually back up, they confidently make unsourced claims, and want people to believe them due to the fact they said it so confidently. So please, try to find textual evidence to support your claims and theories. It helps a lot on your credibility and in how convincing you can be.

As long as you aren't selling it, I don't think it is against the rules. (Not a Mod, so my word isn't law)

Yeah, they don't, I was just giving a small specification/clarification for Ivychroma, as what you said could be interpreted as them not changing it at all. We do ultimately agree they don't change it like NB does.

He also uses the Perpendicularity on Scadrial, and likely the one on Nalthis as T'Telir is relatively close to it. I do believe he would be able to get his hands on an Elsecalling Fabrial in late cosmere. But one thing I feel contradicts such an idea. Yumi Spoilers:

Small correction and elaboration, they technically do change it. But in a very different way. The way that they change Breaths is that, when they take in a Breath, it gets Keyed to their Identity. This happens to anyone taking in Breaths, not just Returned. This is why when you Awaken something, not just anyone can remove it. It is also why Lifeless can't have Breaths removed, as the Breath takes on its own Identity that is not identical to the Awakener. This likely also happened to the Breaths used to Awaken Nightblood, as it became sentient. But yes, basically, they just don't corrupt Investiture like Nightblood does. They mostly just act as a vessel for it.

New One: @Starwatcher @LadyLameness 2600:387:F:5D1A:0:0:0:A is vandalizing the Lights page.

Oh I know, as I said, it is mostly paranoia as he didn't really even say that. I know logically that it is a pretty unsubstantiated concern. We are nigh-100% still getting things like Nightblood. I am calmer now about it. And on Threnody, I wouldn't really call it smaller as he has said repeatedly it would be about a very important group in later cosmere. The Night Brigade and such, and iirc his current plans are for it to be a novel. I would consider smaller novellas to be things like the Silverlight Novella, Stormlight 1.5, or Kingmaker. Not fully related, but I wish that Brandon wasn't not a fan of prequels. As it would be so neat to see novels or novellas for like, Pre-Lord Ruler Scadrial, or the Manywar, or the War of Loss, etc. But I feel in the Lord Ruler part, it makes thematic sense for us to not learn more, as a big theme in the series is the loss of history due to intense censorship and destruction of historical events and peoples, so it could be seen as against the point to make a story taking place in that era.

It probably would count as kinetic during the transfer, as it is being used in a Invested Art during that process. My interpretation, is it briefly turns static investiture into kinetic investiture as it passes between the body and the spike (and vice versa), and then back into static. So I do believe that they could detect hemalurgy being used, but wouldn't be able to tell that something is a hemalurgic spike or not after the fact. They might be able to detect the Investiture slowly released over time as the spike is outside of a body, but that is just a maybe. Not so sure about it.

I have calmed down a lot about it now, I was just in a really bad mood, was in a pretty long depressive episode. I am a lot better now, so don't worry. (If you are still concerned, I do go to therapy and everything, I am all good. Just have episodes from time to time) But this one WoB does worry me again due to my irrationality: As it just makes me think they are going to cut off a lot. But that is doubtful as the main books he is going to write (Stormlight 6-10 and Mistborn Era 3 and 4 and Dragonsteel) definitely can't be cut off. Those I don't really have much concern about. But it does make me worry for things like Nightblood, Aether of Night and the Threnody Sequel. Which are far less necessary and thus could be removed from the plans. Which does concern me as I really want to see those written. Especially Nightblood and the Threnody Sequel. But I do also feel it would be silly to get rid of either of those two due to how much Nightblood has been requested for so long, and due to how he talks a lot about the Threnody Sequel and how it would establish a very important group for the Era 4 plot. So it is ultimately just Aether of Night that I am concerned about. But my worry isn't as bad as that one spiral I went down. Heck it doesn't even explicitly say that they would be dropping anything. I just feel it kind of implies that. But it could just be about saying like, the order that things would be worked on, which is especially relevant with how he is going to be writing Era 3 and Elantris. As even he was a bit iffy on how he is going to write them both. Addition: Also, it is interesting with how it seems that the Dan book is going to either be about the Sleepless or Dawnshards. As he gave a teaser that Dawnshard is going to be pretty relevant to what he is writing. So that is rather intriguing. The "unlike anything done in fantasy before" part doesn't intrigue me much, as claims like that are pretty common and rarely follow through, but hey, it could be accurate.

So, we know from a WoB that the connections in the Surgebinding table are not random, but have a deeper meaning in Vorin culture, based on cultural correlations. I have actually noticed that it goes even deeper than this, where you can even see it reflected in the Spren themselves. I apologize if this isn't that organized, but I don't know how to organize it more properly. One of the most obvious is Chach (Fire) and Kak (Metal), due to the fact that fire is needed to smelt metal, which is the very thing needed to make metal useful as a material for tools and weapons. But there is an even deeper connection, Reachers are made out of metal in the Cognitive Realm, but in the Physical Realm they appear like a "ball of white fire." This I feel makes a very clear meaning between the connection, and a way it is reflected not only in culture, but in the way that the Spren manifest. Chach and Kak also have another notable feature. They are both made into conjoiner fabrials, with conjoined ruby fabrials moving in the same direction, and conjoined amethyst fabrials moving in the opposite direction. Another obvious connection is that of Nan and Chach. Nan is about smoke and fog, and Chach is about fire, which creates smoke. This connection is actually deeper than this, rooted in Divine Attributes, but you have to start at Windrunners to see it. Jeseh is about Leading and associated with Kings, this connects to Nan which is about being Just (which is rooted in ideas of lawkeeping, that is, acting as the arm of a leader, enforcing a system), which connects to Chach which is about Obedience to a system. Ishi can be connected into this chain as well, for they are Pious and Guiding, and connected to Jeseh as well. They are all connected. Jeseh also connects to Nan in another way, with them both having Soulcasting properties of Gas. Jeseh also has a connection to Vev, but I do not see the exact association in this case. I guess that Honorspren are often described as being made of bright light, moreso than any other True Spren. Which correlates with Lucentia. I also guess Protection and Leading are one way that Loving can manifest, like the love of a parent. Vev and Palah are particularly strange, as they are essentially flipped. Palah is about wood, plants, and moss, but that fits with Cultivationspren, which are of Vev. While the Spren of Palah, Mistspren, are more connected with light, quartz, and crystal (a very quartz-like mask, combined with manifesting as reflected light in the physical realm). Another reflection can be seen in Shalash, of Shash, being associated with masks (you can see this in the Shalash official art), much like how Mistspren have a body that is all mist except for their crystalline mask. Cultivationspren manifest Vev in the crystal parts of their body, just as the crystal eyes and hands. And, as I said, Mistspren manifest Vev with their crystaline mask, and Cultivationspren manifest Palah in their body being of vines. Palah and Shash also have connections in both being associated with finding truth. However, Palah is about finding external truth, while Shash is about finding internal truth. This, I feel, indicates that the Illumination Surge, which they both share, is associated with the concept of Truth. Jeseh to Shash actually reflects that they have a good understanding of what blood is. As Jeseh is air and inhalation, and Shash is blood, and they have a direct connection. This reflects that they have some knowledge that blood carries oxygen. Shash to Betab is based around the Non-Oil liquid of Shash, and the Oil of Betab. Shash to Tanat actually makes sense as well, as Cryptics are notably very boney and skeletal, and the body focus of Tanat is the bones. Palah and Ishi is obvious, Palah is ultimately about plant life (pulp, plant, moss), and Ishi is about animal life (meat, flesh, and sinew). Which is a reflection of the dualistic dichotomy that Vorins see the world through. Another factor is the fact that Emerald and Heliodor are both impure versions of the same gemstone, Beryl. Kak and Tanat would be connected as metal is harvested from stone. Tanat and Vev are due to the connections between stone and crystal. I am pretty proud about noticing all of this. Even if it isn't that impressive. As you can observe, spren actually tend to manifest traits of both the Order they are a part of, and of the Orders that they are directly attached to.

I feel you are misunderstanding the barrier. It isn't a gas, it is simply a distortion, wind and light get somewhat distorted as it passes through, and you also see everything move at a different rate when it passes through, thus it creates a visible boundary between the inside and outside. Rather than it being anything physical in the way you are thinking. Just a line of demarcation between the distorted and non-distorted areas, not a physical presence. The special factor in the crystal formations wasn't just "oh it turned solid", it was the fact it was actually taking on matter and physicality. It also likely has some relation with how the distortion is extreme enough that light starts to act strangely. But yeah. This.

Brandon actually explained that it is like that due to the fact Mistspren are about looking for truth and questioning their current truths. Thus they are more open to finding new experiences and questioning their beliefs. Which I feel implies that there wouldn't be many, if any, non-mistspren that allowed her to corrupt them.

Well, Mistspren are basically the only True Spren that allow Sja-Anat to Enlighten them.

Renarin is going to play a bigger role in SA5 and in the second half, especially SA7. So he will become more important in the plot as it progresses. It just isn't his time to really shine yet, as his most important roles are coming later. You have to remember that this is an ongoing series, not a finished one. Brandon has future plans for where these characters are going. Also, yeah, Renarin was given a title before he really did anything big to earn it yet. I bet that he will get a more personal title in the future. We also don't have full context on Son of Thorns yet. It could have far deeper meaning than you hypothesize. I actually interpreted it by the rough childhood he experienced, and maybe some connection to Cultivation, as he is bonded to a Mistspren (which seem to be pretty close to Cultivation), and Cultivation does talk about thorns a lot. And yeah, @Treamayne is right, Renarin meaning "son of Dalinar" (meaning is descriptive, not prescriptive, so it still would mean what Evi meant it to mean, even if the actual linguistics and etymology say otherwise. It just would have more than one meaning) is a fan-theory, it has evidence, but it still ultimately comes from theorizing off of why she put the Nar into the name.

Yeah, I meant that the Omnibus is still worth reading even if you read the prose. And also, yeah, House of Ashes is completely non-canon. The MAG-only information is all non-canon, outside of the Eleventh Metal and Allomancer Jak, but those were confirmed canon by being directly written by Brandon, and were later published outside of MAG.

I will say, that the prose and comic have a lot of differences, so I recommend reading it anyway. It also has the benefit of actually being canon, and including an Ars Arcanum (which is actually much more extensive than any of other ones, going deep into a lot of culture and astronomy and some experiments with sand, it is great).

For those that can't read it well, the theory is about the Contest of Champions, and it poses the idea that Dalinar could lose the Contest of Champions but ultimately still survive due to only experiencing Physical Death, not a spiritual Death (passing into the Beyond), and be brought back by Odium as a Cognitive Shadow serving him, like a Fused. As I understand it.

I feel that is more what deadplate looks like. Given that even the minifigs show Kaladin's Windrunner Shardplate to be blue. And iirc it is described as blue in the books. So, that still holds itself as being accurate.

I am pretty sure on that, but not absolutely sure. I think it was in a Kaladin flashback chapter, but may be wrong.