Ashbringer

I don’t think it affects the newly formed Shard directly. Or rather, the differences between Harmony and Retribution are a result of different things. Taravangian doesn’t seem to have a very strong Connection to Honor. No human save Dalinar really seemed to, sure, but Taravangian has a much stronger Connection to Odium. Also, Honor’s proto-consiousness allows that as an avenue of unbalance, similar to (but different from) Ruin’s power unbalancing Harmony.

I'd note "quiet in doc but actively chatting in Thread" as suspect. Or if you know the player likes to chat in Docs / conversations while around, that's also somewhat suspect. I'm not so chatty this game but that's mostly because I'm just busy with things.

… well, “tweak it a bit” is generally what I mean by it losing randomness But yeah, different GMs will have different styles. Some GMs have picked out specific Elims/player-roles before as well, you just can’t really count on it.

The main reason that I can see, is it lets us see if the Elims are trying to take control of an Ajah. I.e if one-two players are killed during the night, and then the most trusted Sitter is randomly Stilled, that means the Black Ajah probably used their kills to gain control of the Green Ajah, and it would be really nice to know who that last Green Ajah member is/are. There's also some advantages that can be gained by certain other Ajah interactions becoming public (ie someone not agreeing to use a power in a seemingly village way) but some that are beneficial to become private (White Ajah, or the fact that sometimes Villagers will just disagree) Of course, there's the question of how realistic that scenario is. I haven't really run the numbers on whether it's advantageous to the Village to be claiming or not, and realistically it's an intra-Ajah discussion (with the caveat of if enough Ajah claim, the Elims probably can figure out the others, so the more groups that claim the more relevant it is for the others to). My idea was more avoiding claiming partners to become claiming Ajah groupings. Edit: Also, the Black Ajah / Elims are random ish. Generally GMs make ~5 randomized distributions and pick one, but also GMs won’t usually make an Elim team of all new players or all experienced players, or in a game like this make them be all in one Ajah. (Sometimes they will, because that can be sneaky, but generally balance supercedes randomness.)

Okay. Underestimated how busy end of quarter would be, whoops. ... that's where I got "burn me" from. I've started just saying that nowadays, it's a good one. I do wonder if this will be more or less difficult if vote counts continue how the QF's vote counts were - namely, a lot of 1 votes. Elim!me fears no Kas Elim!me fears Meerkas ... okay on one hand, ow. On the other hand, yes that would be helpful to be reminded to do when it comes. And it may be better than an Araris-detector this game! Depends how much we do learn. There is maybe an in-between for claiming: after all the Sitters are nominated, the remaining pairs in each Ajah can claim their partner. That keeps mostly the separation from who's in what Ajah a secret, especially if there are two untainted Ajah orders. Unfortunately, not a lot of time for something else, but I'm around.

Neither Preservation nor Ruin could make something become new or grow - at least, not for very long. Preservation wants to keep things the way they are, Ruin wants to break things, neither Intent particularly wants to make something new. Sure, Preservation and Ruin made a planet together, but I think that was more in line with the Shards both wanting something to influence and Invest + the Vessels wanting to more than the Shards. I think that's partially the mistake Harmony made - Preservation plus Ruin don't necessarily make Creation, they simply can create when the Intents rarely align with that. Cultivation can make things grow and re-learn, while still being accepting of things dying in the process. I think to some degree it depends on the Vessel's interpretations of the two Shards (whether together or separate). Ati took Ruin as a slow but inevitable process, where everything would one day end in Ruin. Kor, on the other hand, does not like violence or the negative aspects of growth that Cultivation perhaps would enjoy. Someone who sees life more as a cycle, old things leaving to make room for the new, would probably combine the Intents well, but Ati/Kor taking up Cultivation/Ruin would not end well.

Well, there's also that most Shards didn't consider him much of a threat, particularly after being bound on Roshar. Valor is AWOL, Autonomy has her own plans, Endowment is being Endowment. But also, the fact that Odium took down Devotion+Dominion together would indicate that he's got ways around the power imbalance he's got. Despite being weaker than Honor, he got the better of him by dragging down Tanavast so much he lost Honor. Not a WoB, but Tanavast seems to think that's what they've been up to in WaT, making marvels across the cosmere. Whimsy's probably not hiding, just not being very helpful as per their Intent. Reason fully is in hiding. There's probably a reason that Honor didn't ask Whimsy for help. ... speaking of which, there's probably a reason Honor didn't ask Mercy for help either... I mean, we haven't seen too much of the Evil to say for certain, but Investiture that gains sentience isn't necessarily limited by the Shard's Intent - Nightblood isn't all that Endow-ing of a personality, for instance. Fair. Could still be she interfered in some way, maybe to take the fight away from Threnody which helped Odium in some way.

The line from Raboniel I remember on the subject was about Heavenly Ones trying to fly in space - which they can do, but without Adhesion they die before getting anywhere near Braize from being, well, in space. I don't remember there being some other explicit line denying Physical Realm travel. And Gavilar somehow got Voidlight from Braize to the Physical Realm, although I think it's implied he got it from Shadesmar. The Fused might even be able to leave the Rosharan system, now - spren can leave, and it's a bit unclear if the new Oathpact is still binding the Fused. (Probably is, but it'll be interesting to see.)

I do think this is the most likely reason, that the Heralds and Fused don’t have entirely Physical forms. Even if the soul of a Herald is accessible, the Fused spirits are made of Investiture and probably couldn’t handle anti-Investiture. But is Braize inaccessible in the Physical Realm? I don’t think I’ve seen that anywhere. Maybe not directly physical-to-physical, but we know anti-Investiture in a gemstone can survive a trip through an Oathgate/Perpendicularity, and the Fused still have ways of getting to the Cognitive if it’s really important (Dai-Gonarthis, maybe an amplified Husked One, or sneak through the Well of Control).

I’d thought it just was Nale’s spren… but that’s a good point. And also 1) Kalak would probably have met Nale’s spren before and 2) didn’t Nale’s spren leave him?

… I don’t quite follow? Waves even more vaguely in Battar

So I had this thought recently. Ishar’s plan around the new Oathpact is designed to protect the minds of the Heralds, stopping the torture from getting to them. But what about their bodies? I mean, the torture is mostly muffled, but anti-Investiture exists now, and it’d be a real short Oathpact if El just goes around Braize stabbing comatose Herald bodies. My guess is that wouldn’t work, either because actual Oathpact-following Heralds are much harder to kill via anti-Investiture than Jezrien was, or because getting anti-Investiture physically to Braize and the Heralds would be too complicated, or actually getting anti-Stormlight/anti-Investiture is now more complicated. But I’m curious what others think.

Part of the issue is that in addition to the regional laws, Alethi Law is also the main consideration. And I doubt Alethi conquest law particularly cares about the Thaylens being not “under duress”. (Plus there’s still the question of if they’d want to rejoin, as Taravangian had some good points + Fen probably negotiated pretty good terms for her surrender, I’d guess.) The Azish sub-territories are interesting, though. Adolin may have an in to try and take those back without breaking the rules, though I doubt it’d be as simple as saying “hey get out”. But also, the humans always have the power to try and take things back - Rayse was always careful about that kind of wording. If they think they can beat the singers, and whatever wrath Retribution can enact, the coalition’s welcome to try.

We haven't really seen any Radiants try, iirc. And things will likely change as the ramifications of Retribution become clear. It could be that Retribution simply doesn't care that his allied Dustbringers/Skybreakers don't have Light; he was about to try and absorb and remake all spren before the Oathpact protected them, and that might have extended to Voidspren as well.

Waves vaguely in Nale (Not as much Justice as Law, but still)

Nice theories! I think this is this one - which was more about Devotion/Dominion than Ambition, and we learned a bit about that in WaT. (Namely, Odium got Devotion/Dominion to weaken each other, then finished them off.) Personally, I think this is what did happen - Mercy hit the death blow on Ambition, either after working with Odium or after their clash. Whether Mercy was helping Ambition beforehand, or Odium after, not entirely sure. Wind and Truth seems to indicate that the Threnodite System got broken by the clash, with planets being destroyed and severe damage done. To me, that feels like the two had a direct clash, like the one Honor and Odium nearly had a few times. We also know that Odium thought that the fight against Ambition would have been easier than it was, and he was wounded because of it. Perhaps his help wasn't as much help as he thought. I think most Shards had such Investments - Honor seemed to give up more power than Odium did, Cultivation gave up pieces as well, Preservation and Ruin built an entire planet/people, Invention's been going around making random things... perhaps Valor hasn't been Investing, or Mercy. I actually think somewhat the opposite - some of Ambition's power is tied to Threnodites, and passed through there heritage, as the people of Canticle all seem to be fairly Invested based on their sunhearts compared to the Rosharan's. Although this does seem tied to them as a people, rather than only affecting those alive on Threnody / those alive when the Clash happened. But I think, perhaps, Odium partially Splintered Ambition (or the Splinters that were made in the Threnodite system, as Ambition seems Splintered elsewhere) were placed into the Physical Realm. The Evil seems to be many large chunks of Ambition's (or Odium's) Investiture that gained some level of sentience. ... who is Senna? Copperminds Oh. Maybe, actually, Mercy or Virtuosity. I do wonder if Mercy's Vessel is another Sho Del, as it would seem unlikely for their to be only one - but Chan Ko Sar / Invention also sounds Sho Del-ish. I do think this is, perhaps, a key point. Mercy for who? In my opinion, Odium thought that he could attack Ambition one-on-one because Ambition+Mercy settled together, and thought Mercy wouldn't interfere. Or perhaps he had help, in the form of Autonomy or a convinced Mercy, that ended up flaking on him. The two Shards attacked, and began destroying the Threnodite system, with Ambition losing but still doing a tremendous amount of damage. Then Mercy decided to kill Ambition in order to end the clash and save what was left of Threnody. That could be a Mercy on Ambition, to end her suffering. And a Mercy on Threnody, to save it. And would it be a Mercy on the greater cosmere?

Depends if El has a good amount of control over his emotions (like Taravangian does, or other candidates like Jasnah) or if he doesn't have much emotion (like to some degree Szeth). Odium likes people to have emotions, and while being emotionless would help control the impulses of Odium, you run into the same problem of Odium maybe leaving for someone more emotional. We haven't seen too much of El, but he feels fairly muted as a person, and notably doesn't seem to want Retribution on the Heralds due to any personal grievances.

My MR signups will hopefully go up this weekend, starting about 1.5 weeks after that depending on how fast player counts pile up. Feel free to ping me if I forget to do that. Also I'm probably saving my LG slot for Shard Game, which feels more like a Summer thing, probably... we'll have to see how that goes. (And I might have two slots, I forget.)

Wohoo! Hey, who turned out the lights?

We still don’t really know how Nicrosil works, but being able to Compound Nicrosil seems like a way to gather Investiture. Store a bit of innate Investiture, compound it, repeat as necessary… or even if that doesn’t work, Scadrial had some level of trade with Nalthis, all he likely had to do was obtain a Breath and Compound it. Fair. I’m also just saying we’ve had WoBs that say “Honor is Splintered” or “Kor is the only Dragon Vessel” or “Sleepless hordelings can only become fist-sized”, where they’re later proved to be very misleading if not just wrong. (Which is fine, things change… but perhaps Honor’s words are a sign of things changing.)

I don't know if titling a thread "Retribution" is a spoiler, but generally you can't have spoilers in the titles because they'll show up in the front page. Retribution is more the feeling of "payback", and too me it fits pretty well. It's not strictly the enforcing of Oaths that Honor was, and it's not necessarily the sheer wrath that Odium was, but it is wrath in the enforcement of Oaths, or Wrath against Oathbreakers. It also fits well, I think, the current mindset of the two Shards - Odium wants retribution for having been bound and unable to progress its goals for so long, while a part of Honor wants retribution for having been betrayed by humans (Tanavast and Dalinar) despite trying to determine if that's really what it wants. And it notably doesn't fit Taravangian... which I think is partially the point. The two Intents are much more aligned than Harmony, but I wonder if they'll begin to clash as Taravangian vs Retribution vs proto-Honor fight for their will. I personally was hoping for the name of War, if this occurred, but that may have been too on the nose (and would have been a better fit had Dalinar taken the two shards, not Taravangian).

The yoki-hijo probably were growing in power because they'd been alive (well, alive-ish-Shadows) for so long. It's hard to tell if they're usually immortal or not, as Yumi doesn't do anything to indicate it - or rather, Yumi is immortal and innately has more than enough Investiture to be immortal, but the plot of Yumi of the simulated old-Komashi doesn't seem to imply that yoki-hijo have abnormally long lifespans the same way Elantrians/Returned obviously do. There's also the note that whatever Rashek had, he wasn't innately Invested enough without his metalminds to be immortal. If he was, through some trick with tapped nicrosil or the Well, he wouldn't have died from losing his armbands. Which in retrospect is interesting, since he seems powerful enough that it would be fairly simple to do so. Could be he didn't know how to use nicrosil properly / would rather be dependent on atium than outside Investiture, or he was waiting for the Well to refill, or could be that (through Ruin's influence or his own decisions) he didn't want to be actually fully unaging. I'm also a little skeptical that the Heralds are actually less invested than an Elantrian, since Honor calls out that they have too much of his power... but Elantrians and the yoki-hijo are gaining Investiture from Splintered Shards, which likely gives them extra allowance. But WoBs have been misleading before (ie the ones about Honor also being Splintered, when he seemingly wasn't).

Ahhh ouch understandable ... interesting. There's definitely been some shakiness with the Spreadsheet, and I wouldn't be too surprised if it maybe takes a while to update - sometimes I'll pop in for a second, see nothing has changed, then like 10 seconds later (or if I forcibly update) some new things are there. I'm also slightly biased against killing Steel just because he can be more active / experienced, which we maybe need. But also, yeah, objectively has done fairly suspicious things. Do remember to put your votes in the Spreadsheet (Edit: and GM PM) if you mean them! (TalnFan)

@TwinStorm @#1 Taln Fan @Lord Spirit @Experience If the pattern of Elims killing actives holds I won’t be around to ping much longer. TwinStorm, prepare to die!

Re-grabbing this because of a realization made in another thread: There’s been a couple of WoBs that it’s possible for a Shard to seperate, under the right conditions - instead of doing what Harmony and Retribution have done, have a single Shard Splinter into multiple distinct pieces. I wonder if that’s what was happening here. Each Herald gained a piece of Honor’s power, maybe in line with their Virtues or maybe not. But enough that they maybe became Avatars, or micro-Vessels of a very significant Splinters of Honor, but without the true Ascendance to use it properly. Meanwhile Honor had accidentally given away pieces of his Intent that he hadn’t meant to, such as the parts Tanavast was most strongly Connected to or simply the parts that cared.