LewsTherinTelescope

Presumably he doesn't like doing it when he doesn't feel it's absolutely necessary.

Dalinar already uses the terminology of "be my own champion", that doesn't seem to be a restriction. If Honor bound himself to similar rules around harm as he bound Odium then it could be a problem, though.

It's not really like what Dalinar says at all. Dalinar talks about how not wanting to be king is racist but also maybe there shouldn't be a king, Hoid talks about how doctrines like the Passions are a deliberate lie of those in power to pretend they deserve it and since Kaladin is a lighteyes now he needs to be wary of moral rationalizations for why others didn't succeed like he did. Wit still has a similar rant about the Passions, the new version doesn't take up any less space, but the part about people in power has been toned down to be more implicit and the specific reminder to Kaladin of his station is gone entirely.

Oh crap. This makes a ton of sense, I really like it.

I think it's about Kaladin. In the original reading of the Kaladin and Wit chapter, Wit gives Kaladin a speech about his responsibility as a lighteyes. In the final preview chapter, that's replaced by a new rant (though still centered on the Passions being BS), and suddenly Wit is telling Kaladin he won't be returning to Urithiru and by the way the wind is alive and talking to you. My theory is that Brandon outlined Kaladin as taking the throne of Urithiru and his conflict for the book was going to center on using authority correctly (perhaps tying into the story of Szeth and the Shamanate), but he decided that didn't fit his arc and replaced it with however the Wind stuff concludes. Ironically, this mirrors Kaladin being plotted as taking the Shardblade in The Way of Kings Prime but Brandon deciding to make him turn it down in the published The Way of Kings.

Ah, I misunderstood, gotcha. That's an interesting thought, hmmm. I don't know if the power can be bound to something so firmly against its Intent, though—if you took Ruin and tried to swear an oath never to destroy I can't imagine it would take very well? I'm also not sure if the boon+curse mechanism is a binding oath in the first place since Cultivation didn't give Lift what she wanted anyway, and even if it is her gift seems to have been very specific rather than a general "cannot change anymore" trait. Plus, if it were that simple then any Vessel could make a promise saying "I will not change myself that way" to make themselves immune.

WoB is that Dalinar had someone read Adolin and Renarin a draft before sharing it, so they learned before the general populace did at least but still not from him. I wouldn't want to be the person who had to deliver that reading...

The editors and beta readers don't write the books. But yeah, it's been... rough, so far. Personally I feel Day 2 has been much better than Day 1 in these regards, but it's still messy.

The history of the war is that of Cognitive entities continually not learning their lessons, to be fair. It would, but the framing we get of her isn't that she was just selflessly fighting for them, it's that she made herself into a deity (and endangered all of Roshar in the process somehow). The listeners count her among those gods whose control they escaped as solidly as they count the Fused.

Would she be willing? In the prologue we learn she tried to overthrow Odium and become a god in her own right.

That's just the end of Era 1 /j

If she had the power to stop the Shard from changing the Vessel, Taravangian!Odium would have been much easier to deal with.

Agreed, especially now that even Odium himself is someone we've known since Book 1. This probably isn't it, but I wonder if Taravangian could send a Fused, let them get knocked out by the suppressor, and claim Dalinar's side is in violation because the Sibling won't let them in? Same. I don't think Moash would fit against anyone other than Kaladin, but I'd also be disappointed if Kaladin's arc returned to "fight Moash again" instead of moving on. (Plus it's not the direction I would want Moash's arc to go either, but tbh I'm still not sure what to expect from him this book anyway.) Yeah, the connection to Taravangian feels relevant, and he's always been teetering between light and dark since he's become a protagonist—I mean just look at the symbolism in Oathbringer... White light, black smoke, grey eyes, I respect the commitment to the bit lmao. Szeth and Kaladin really do just have drama in their veins.

I hate this because I want my poor child to be happy for once in his life But yeah, I think this is extremely plausible. I disagree/half-agree with a few specific points though. The law is what many Skybreakers swear to, but it's not what Szeth has. I mean, surely going to wipe out the leaders of Shinovar is against their laws, but he's doing it anyway. His oath is to Dalinar's will, which sure as hell doesn't include him returning to Taravangian's service. Besides, the premise of him being declared Truthless was false, and the Skybreakers are supposed to defend the innocent as much as they're supposed to prosecute the guilty, I don't think the highspren would view his binding to the Oathstone as valid. Dalinar's mercy didn't allow Taravangian to Ascend, Szeth going to kill him did. I don't think it'll make him hate Dalinar, but it would likely make him go "crap, I really can't be trusted to make my own choices, this is what happens when I do", which could lead to a similar end result. I do have another qualm as well: the Knights of Wind and Truth epigraphs speak of a separate "contest" happening in Shinovar tied to Szeth's quest, and Wit says Kaladin and Syl won't be coming back. These don't explicitly say Szeth won't be coming back, but together they imply to me that his plotline probably ends separately from Dalinar's. Possible Szeth could be the "champion" of whoever the Wind has Kaladin fighting, though (please Brandon do not do this to me let him have a happy ending pleaaaase ).

That seems like the opposite of Stormlight's themes, which are about choosing life and continuing on to do better after mistakes.

To be fair, Brandon's made it a point several times that Shards are just humongous spren, and that other big spren can do some of the things they do (like the Sibling talking to the insane).

Unfortunately Cultivation is the only dragon currently a Vessel, which is lame To be fair, it took Aux decades to reach that point (TSM 6). I reaaaaally don't want anything bad to happen to Szeth though Yeah it's weird that he regards willingness to do harm as strength given how negatively he views the whole "subtraction" thing. Feel like Adolin's dying in Azir when Abidi comes looking for Shallan and she's not there.

I think either Taravangian or Splintered. Edit: That or Dalinar Ascends but is bound to serve Odium by his oath anyway.

So far as we know Heralds probably didn't have Shardplate, though it's not impossible. He sees Jezrien in one of them, but I believe that's all.

I replied to the RPG argument here. TL;DR the oath rules are gamified in a way that contradicts the books, and this section isn't even in the "default rules" anyway, but if we do take them at face value then a different section suggests she's said at most three truths anyway so she shouldn't have the Patternblade even now if they're truly separate levels as people suggest. We learn in RoW that Mercy was involved in the clash too, so I don't think we can assume this after all. Regardless, though, we know the wording leaves them room to agree to settle[1] and Honor at least believes he kept his word[2], so this doesn't seem to be how he beat them anyway. He does seem to have relied on that justification to keep other Shards like Endowment from stopping him, though. [1] [2]

That is more or less the question alder and I have been arguing about this whole time, lol. I disagree with the premise that she has separate levels with each spren, as I've laid out in my past messages in this thread.

Could definitely be part of it, but it's in the specific context of him saying Testament's cut was "ragged" and thus worse than a "cleaner" deadeye cut as well, not just a general statement like the line at the end was.

Addendum: literally two sentences later Pattern says he doesn't think saying more Words will be enough to fix Testament, I really should have read slightly further when searching for the quote huh

More or less. It's messy because as you note she still hasn't actually acknowledged her memories of Testament, so the Ideals are probably still a little frayed until the end of Rhythm of War, but roughly Third Ideal yeah. Ah, I suspect we're interpreting the WoB about needing to summon her Blade differently. The way I interpret that situation is that by summoning her she briefly revived her (I believe we know that's how that works?). Swearing her Second Ideal then kept Testament kind of alive enough to swear the Third Ideal and use her powers through that bond without needing to summon her again at the end of the book. Pattern mentions that the break being ragged is "in some ways ... worse" (W&T 1), which I believe is making it harder to fix her as easily as Kaladin did Syl. She is making progress, though (RoW 115). Oh god no. I mean, who knows with Shallan, but probably not lmao. That's fair. I'll clarify my answers to the questions in the rest of that paragraph for the sake of anyone else watching, but I don't mind dropping the argument. Reconstruction: I think this is primarily in book 1 when she reaches* the Second and Third Ideals again (not the same words she swore as a kid obviously since she was not yet a murderer, but similar level of self-reflection), and also in books 4 and 5 now in a less formal way now that she's acknowledging Testament again and rebuilding the Connection more mundanely. Revival: I'm not sure what it will take to revive her fully, as it hasn't happened yet. Yeah, we see her Memories still functional for example, and in WoR 45 she starts to draw upon Stormlight before backing out.

The mention of the Wind means this should probably stay. I'm also generally not going to move a thread out of the spoiler zone unless the original poster requests it.