LewsTherinTelescope

The bond has trouble when you go too far away, if the spren is still in the Cognitive then they're not even on the same plane of existence. Kaladin doesn't get powers when Syl is talking to him from... wherever she's talking to him from at the end of WoR, only when she's pulled back over to the Physical. I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this one, as it seems we interpret it very differently. Sure? You're assuming the second one was him rather than being the same not-him voice, though. Yes, I agree the voice in the first scene was Testament (probably? sorta? kinda?). It does for her Second Ideal, as you pointed out earlier. No, but she can't use Stormlight in the first place, so I would expect it to manifest differently for her anyway. And in the moment where IMO she realizes what to say, she gets struck by something she analogizes to "a jolt of power", which seems like intentional writing to me. Lift has a lot of association with the Cognitive (closer to it so she can touch Wyndle, can break into the visions somehow, both her Ideals seem to be sworn mentally), so her oath effect being more Cognitive makes sense to me. And yet, the only thing we know is that at least one of those times it was not Pattern. So why can't it apply to your question about Testament too? She was "frantic", why would she be rationing? Sorry, pronoun ambiguity there, I meant Testament who was Shallan's innocent friend. I did not say she would not be afraid, I said she would not be as afraid of herself. Yes.* She didn't, at least not entirely. You're assuming these kinds of things have to be all or nothing, which I disagree with given the cut itself was not all or nothing in the first place. We don't know how Plate works with two spren of the same kind. Who says it isn't? I disagree with the premise that she reached the Fourth Ideal as a child. We know killing her mother was the first time the Blade formed, which implies to me she had only just hit the Third. Plus the Davars don't seem to have any Shardplate lying around, and also you'd think it would have protected Shallan when her mother came at her with a knife. Because the new Ideal builds on it in a much deeper way. Kaladin's Third and Fourth Ideals aren't actually something separate from his Second, merely realizations about it. Why can't Shallan's work the same way? "I'm terrified", "I'm a murderer", "I'm afraid most of all of myself", under this theory they build on one another. Because as I have said repeatedly I don't believe they are full Ideals, they're steps along the way. When she talks about killing her mother she's still lying too much for calling it "a truth" to fit (IMO), and when she talks about killing her spren it's focused on the event rather than on her (but this does get her close enough for the creationspren to begin reacting). Because it's part of the picture even though it's not the entire thing. She's also denying to herself that there is more to say about the event, which means she has to pretend it was the full Ideal on its own. She does not specifically say "that one was an Ideal", but that is not the same thing as saying "that one was not". [RPG spoilers] "Godchamp" is my new favorite way to refer to child champion theory now

I don't think I understand why this would change it so the bond itself starts in the Cognitive, can you elaborate? Ivory was treated similarly to Syl by the other inkspren, they don't like it. I'm not sure if that was him in the prologue, it seems to try to kill her which matches with what Jasnah says the other inkspren wanted to do (OB 47). That doesn't say they're different, does it? She breathes her Light in in chapter 8. She already said it before then, hence why she's able to summon Wyndle (ED 19). Which she's not doing until now, because whenever she takes a step on one thing she lies her ass off about another. You can't bullcrem an Ideal. Brandon explicitly says that's what's happening, though. How could she swear an oath with Pattern when she had no intent and no knowledge of him before WoR? They aren't, they're steps. Hence why I listed them underneath one entry and described them as "baby steps". Sure she's always been scared, but I somehow doubt she was as afraid of herself before she killed her mother and murdered her innocent friend. He says she's doing it "kind of frequently" and "it's actually pretty complicated", that sounds like it's about more than just the few times she says full Ideals. He said they have a whole wiki page about it, that sounds pretty literal to me. I didn't say it did? What I listed were steps toward and away from her Fourth, her Second and Third are unaffected.

I'm actually gonna drop this point, because as said I was mostly playing Devil's advocate, and this discussion is complicated enough already without that lol. Oh interesting, I forgot that line. I'd taken the one in the interlude as her remembering something she'd already said, in which case she could have simply sworn the First beforehand too, but nvm. Eshonai had no Intent to form a bond. If he was still in the Cognitive, would the bond have actually started yet? The voice in that scene repeats the "what are you?" line from the voice she said "I'm terrified" to, and she doesn't comment on it sounding different or anything, so I'm inclined to think it's the same entity in both cases. Didn't she already take in that Light? Lift can't use Stormlight in the first place, but she does get an effect she compares to a jolt of power during her conversation with Arclo as soon as she comes to the conclusion I believe to be her Third Ideal (which fits with her Cognitive focus) [ED 18]: Szeth gets snow for his Third similar to Kaladin's frost, though you're right no Stormlight is mentioned (perhaps he's already got enough he doesn't notice, or perhaps he for some reason only got part of the effect) [OB 121]: The book cuts away from Venli immediately after she finishes each of her Ideals, so we don't know whether she would've got one for her Second or not. Probably didn't for the First or else she would have been found out, but Kaladin doesn't get it for his First either so I don't think that's terribly indicative. (Something that has bugged me, actually—Kaladin doesn't get bursts of Stormlight from nowhere in tWoK/WoR, we always see him explicitly breathing it in from nearby gems whenever he swears an Ideal! But the later books act as if it's a thing, so I guess it is now even though that doesn't match what the earlier books portray...) Brandon says a lot of things that are turning out to be false lately Less flippantly, I think he's decided to smooth out some of the differences here. For example, he used to say some orders don't get squires: But it's since been confirmed they all do: He also said the number of Ideals needed to get a Blade varies by order: But so far it's been confirmed that fully half of them follow the exact same structure for this. And conveniently we have practically zero exposure to a normal Radiant from any order but Windrunners, so there's not actually much in the earlier books you have to explain away to homogenize the Light burst as well. I think there's a miscommunication here. I don't think she's repeating them, I think her oaths are counting for both the way a squire's oaths also count for their spren bond when they graduate without needing any extra steps. I would say her Ideals are: "Life before death, strength before weakness, journey before destination." She swears it as a child, mostly breaks it by rejecting Testament, half resurrects it by her uplifting her brothers, and gradually rebuilds it further as she becomes a more active player. (Perhaps she completely restores it when she summons Testament into the safe? Not sure.) She admits that beneath the facade of forced humor, "I'm terrified." This isn't necessarily something she was consciously denying, but she always kept a buffer to avoid the fear until now. She admits to killing her father. Notably this is not just a simple statement of fact, she also has to face the shameful view of herself due to it that she has never been willing to acknowledge before, even as a joke—"I'm a murderer." She admits how fundamentally she's afraid of not just the world, but "most of all, of myself". This is her deepest pain, needing a lot of "1.1 steps forward, 1 step back" moments along the way before she's ready. Off the top of my head (I'm sure there are other baby steps I'm forgetting) I think the progression is roughly as follows: [pre-book, quote from W&T 3] She admits that she has a Blade, and summons it instantly into the safe which requires implicitly admitting the whole thing, but even in that moment she's denying the evidence of her own senses and memories. [tWoK 7] She admits she used a Shardblade, but pretends it was when her father died. [tWoK 45] She admits the Blade comes from something horrific she's done, but inferring from the other quotes she probably told herself that act was killing her father, and she's convinced herself she needs ten heartbeats. [WoR 34] She admits that she doesn't need ten heartbeats after all, but backtracks immediately. [WoR 72] She admits her Blade has to do with her spren, but stops herself from finishing the thought. [WoR 74] She admits the method by which she killed her father, which if you think about it breaks the lie that this was when she summoned the Blade before, but of course she almost certainly doesn't think about it. [WoR 86] She admits fully that the Blade is Pattern, and even hints that she knows the difference between a living Blade and dead one, but doesn't think about why she knows this. [WoR 88] She admits what happened with her mother, but ignores the previous tacit acknowledgement of knowledge about dead Blades and lies her chull off about Testament. [RoW 93] She admits what happened with Testament, but she's too focused on the "what" for it to take her all the way. However, it does get her close enough that nearby creationspren start reacting, the way nearby windspren react to Kaladin throughout Book Three. [W&T 9] She admits not just what happened but who she is because of it, finally crossing the threshold. Under this theory, the difference Brandon alludes to is that she made progress on her Fourth Ideal before she "swore" the Second and Third—because she has sworn them, in the first book she's really just repairing extant bridges instead of making new ones. [RPG mechanics]

She got personal attention from the Stormfather. It's implied that despite Lift playing dumb she's actually sworn stuff: That said, I do actually agree saying the Ideals out loud is less important than living them anyway, so consider the above more Devil's advocate arguments. My problem is that if as you're proposing she has to reach each level twice, how else do you determine what re-swearing the First a second time looks like if not the Words? [RPG] Again, not talking about before you get powers. She didn't bond Pattern until the boat, so that wouldn't actually solve the inconsistency I'm trying to point out, which is that if you're proposing she has to reach each level twice—once to repair the old bond, once to establish the new one—then she would have to reach the First twice too, and at least one would have to be after starting to bond him. (To be clear, she definitely did say the First Ideal as a child, there's a reference to it at some point. I'm proposing it carried over under "one track" theory, and arguing that it is problematic for the "two tracks" theory that she hasn't re-sworn it, that's all.) Right, but look at the quote again: It wasn't glowing, she says the Words, it begins glowing. That implies she got more Light at the same time she said the Words.

Tricky part here is that she doesn't bond Pattern until she's spoken two truths anyway, so we can't actually tell whether they carried over from her childhood or just Way of Kings... Personally, I don't think an oath that is broken can carry over until it's repaired, which in practice would mean repairing them progresses the bond with Pattern similarly to how a new oath would, but the semantics there could be debated. It's definitely described in a subtler way than Kaladin's, but she says the Words and Light suddenly starts glowing brightly from her eyes, that sounds like a similar idea IMO. For what it's worth, Kaladin's First Ideal was a lot more understated: Might be some variety based on what is dramatically appropriate for the scene. Not well, evidently!

Could be, but what triggered his return then? Pretty recently, one of Venli's later flashbacks (a year and a half before RoW, so very close to the summoning of the storm into the Physical Realm) says this: I don't think so personally, Ulim talks about the plan before the other Herald dies and I don't think they would rely on assuming they could break Taln after four and a half millennia of that not working. It doesn't look like Ulim ever talks about bringing the Fused back until OB, so maybe the Herald breaking allowed that? But Ulim is also a lying slimy bag of crap so that might just be him hiding information, and it's also kind of weird to say they were going to launch a Desolation with only forms of power when Mishram already tried that.

Okay at least we agree about that part lol, makes discussion easier. In that WoB, what Brandon says about the complexity is that she's kind of progressing 1.1 steps and regressing 1 step a lot, not necessarily that she's got two whole separate sets of oaths tracking separately. Also, again, she's lying in the oath about her mother—would that really fully count as a truth? I think it was a necessary step but not the whole deal, and that's why the math is weird. I don't mean saying it before using powers, I mean Shallan never says it in the modern day at all. Side note: Shallan seems to get a burst of Light when swearing her Ideal this book, even though we haven't seen that with her before. Perhaps she got it for her truths in Book 1 but used it all up immediately to transition to Shadesmar? That would then support my idea that none of the other things she said in between have been fully Ideals on their own, since we don't see a similar burst of Light for any of them, but that is adding a layer of speculation to things.

Not necessarily. As he says right after, the Oathpact has been weakened to near annihilation, and in the prologue the Stormfather (or "Stormfather" if you must) is concerned about something to do with it: What if it's no longer functional enough to return them to Braize properly, hence "BUT IT DOESN’T MATTER AS IT ONCE DID"? More speculatively: Perhaps Chana got sort of caught halfway, but the Everstorm being broken off allowed her to escape back to Roshar, and this is why Taln's arrival coincides so closely with it even though most common theories say they're unrelated?

Shallan's not progressing as discretely as most Radiants: I doubt you can lie for a truth, so while the admission about her mother was a step forward I don't think that it actually took her all the way to the next Ideal, because she was still pretending Pattern was the sword. I disagree with the premise that there are separate tracks. @Jofwu did a good job laying out one reason here, TL;DR it doesn't make sense for any other order. If Kaladin bonds a second honorspren, does have to stop protecting some group so he can swear a new Third Ideal about them? Except wait, wouldn't that just break his bond to Syl? It requires saying a bond to a Cryptic is fundamentally different from a bond to the other spren. Beyond that, we know squires can swear Ideals to their Knight and then have them automatically carry over when they bond a spren. In fact, Skybreaker acolytes swear their First Ideal to literally nothing yet it still counts! This implies that the target of the oath doesn't matter, only that it's been made, which would suggest if you bond two spren of the same kind then oaths should count for both. Plus, Shallan never swore the First Ideal to Pattern—this is an inconsistency if you assume the bonds have separate "levels", but makes perfect sense if they share the same "level" because it simply carried over from when she swore it as a child (now that she's returned to living it out again).

@coolsnow7 I said chill.

He doesn't seem unable in the latest chapters, just unwilling. He refers to it as "dangerous" and says he'll need to think about it, not just a flat no like he gave before.

@coolsnow7 @Aleph-Naught Chill. It's just a theory about a book.

She had already sworn three Ideals by then.

I think it's more a half-truth than a lie as well, but it's still a deception, which we also see him try to pull when pretending to Dalinar he doesn't know where the Heralds are, so Honor doesn't force him to honesty or anything. Edit: Oh wait, didn't read the quote closely enough, the "I can show no more" part might be an outright lie.

[Mistborn]

My guess at the logic: People can't see him unless they're looking for him, so he's forced to push himself out of his comfort zone and initiate (writing letters and stuff). His curse leaves him unable to touch anyone, but if they try to kill him then he can fight back as a way to show that gained courage.

Maya says in chapter 3 she heard that Mishram was captured: That implies they only decided after the news spread, during which time there may have been room to notice the Tower failing. This is weird, I agree. I can only assume that even if there may have been a delay in learning, the decision was fairly quick once they found out. Though it's also strange either way that there are no Skybreakers commenting on the Recreance afterward, so perhaps there were limited operators of the recording device who were first among those to abandon their oaths, or they for some reason decided to leave no paper trail?

Renarin is the first of his kind: So whatever that Radiant meant is different. Agreed. All the things the gems note as broken are things that were fixed by the Sibling's Light coming back online, which is an issue the Sibling attributes to Mishram's capture. Keep in mind, so far as we know the modern Radiants were probably the ones to assign these numbers (unless I'm forgetting something clarifying)—for all we know they could have got the drawers or rows backward, or the recordings could have been originally organized some other way besides chronologically.

That's fair, I'm not entirely sure either. Syl was attracted to Kaladin. If it only just transitioned, it might still be in that primal state where it's not as aware yet. RPG, picture was shared in this Kickstarter update. Only a little bit (WoR 6): It doesn't sound like they can do full conversations. Oh that could be cool. I think outright being mistspren is more likely for the reason above, but if this turned out to be true I wouldn't be shocked.

Lift initially believes this, but it becomes apparent fairly quickly that it didn't actually happen. In her first interlude someone says she looks at least twelve (which is her actual age, she claims to have been ten for three years), in Edgedancer we learn she's starting to get her period, and in her RoW interlude she's been measuring her height and binding her chest.

The description matches how mistspren look: They also have conversations, which doesn't make sense if they aren't sapient spren:

I really hope so. It's associated with her just as much as Shallan, and thematically it could work well for a finale.

I saw someone suggest we could see Dalinar bring him back in a vision like he did with Tien.

They do precisely that in these chapters.