LewsTherinTelescope

However, they tripped and fell over the old Coppermind logo, which Brandon then declared to be decent after all.

Hoid is weird and I'm not willing to base anything on him Hm could definitely be Vin and Marsh discuss it, though I dunno how much I agree with the distinction made. (After all, you could probably argue the same for the emotional metals' pulses.) Yeahhhh Pushing and Pulling are kind of weird outside steel and iron. In fact, from the sound of it, copper is literally pushing some sort of field out from yourself... Yeah it's interesting stuff.

Yeah, it's in one of the storage caches. Good point, can probably excuse it with that. Seems a lot of people have, with how often I still see the side effect thing brought up Hm, that's a good question. I'm more willing to accept lerasium alloys being odd, due to a.) containing the power granting it or b.) due to the extra innate Preservation in Scadrians being the thing that allows Allomancy, but that'd be a good question for Brandon I think. God I forgot about that one........... Might be that only Enhancement alloys make Mistings or something like that..... Ah okay, yeah probably. looks at copper Yeah... Yeah could be.

Notum's father is definitely post-Recreance, he gives a bit of family history in OB. My guess is Brandon just mixed up Notum and Ico, but idk.

Ah. Yeah, it's odd, but depending on the ratios involved it might work, since Allomantic electrum is about half gold still. It's sorta odd malatium was discovered either way, tbh. Because there's a bunch of alloys of atium, and yet both Shezler and Rashek only ever seem to have discovered malatium. It being the only one that could be gotten (in a slightly impure form) by adding things to electrum-atium might help explain that, but it's still... weird. To respond to a comment from the other thread here, to keep it in one place: Seems plausible. I'm a bit hesitant because of the following WoBs: Which sorta sound like he might be backtracking that idea of the "main effect" and "side effect". But if that still stands, then yeah, atium probably has one too. Not sure about it allowing burning alloys, because being able to burn iron doesn't let you burn steel, but I think it's still plausible. ...huh. I even read and used that very line and still missed that even more obvious problem Good catch lmao Hm, I was thinking a more limited version of what Elend got (less time, less knowledge, less understanding), but I think that's a reasonable effect as well. Hm, good question. My gut feeling is it's mostly just a somewhat arbitrary thing to make the metals actually distinct instead of one just better than the other, but even then Brandon does like to make rules for what was otherwise arbitrary, so... Not sure.

Woah, this is awesome!

What malatium thing specifically? There's a few things with it I'm confused by either way, tbh, lol. I actually don't see this part as too much of an issue. The Allomantic table was something Brandon intended from the start to be wrong and grow and change as knowledge evolves, so while this wasn't originally intended, I think it fits the spirit of the thing for them to later discover it's a bit more complex than previously thought, helping some loose pieces fall into place. Basically what happened with them even placing atium onto the OG chart in the first place. Thanks! Lol yeah there's a reason I haven't made a proper new one in a hot minute despite having theories that could really benefit from that organization.

Do they? It might be that all the atium (outside the "refined" spikes) we've seen has been electrum-atium. And the description of what "pure" atium does in the Allomantic chart doesn't quiiiiiiiite line up, in my opinion, though it's very close and I could see the argument. Description of atium: Description of electrum: The electrum one mentions the limitations, while the atium one merely says "expansive", which I'd say matches Elend's transcension moment more than the normal function of the metal we see. My guess is that pure atium basically puts you into the Cognitive and Spiritual a bit (which the atium we see used actually does, too, according to Kelsier's description of them "transcending" the Realms), while electrum-atium (I like the name "benatium" to contrast with gold-atium's "malatium") filters this into future shadows like electrum has, and malatium filters it into past/alt-present shadows like gold has. But when burning it with duralumin and a ton of "atium", Elend basically overwhelmed the filter and cracked it wide open, not dissimilar to how using steel and iron with the Bands allows seeing other objects besides metal (in fact, I wonder if a Bands user burning electrum would transcend like that...). I'd guess the latter (shame it's not malatium, health + Shard of time passing = youth would've been a nice fit), since otherwise it'd probably indicate the "refined" form being widely known, when presumably only Inquisitors know (assuming Rashek didn't just provide the atium spikes premade). Hm, I'd guess probably. I'm not actually sure I'd agree with this (though I could totally see an argument for it and it's not a hill I'd die on). WoBs have seemed to imply that godmetals might be burnable by anyone with sufficient tie to the Shard, which makes sense to me since it's really just a chunk of pure Investiture sitting inside your body and spiritweb (though a longer discussion on that should probably go in the thread I linked instead of here... though it ties into the discussion here about using Stormlight so...). Meanwhile, burning an alloy probably requires being able to burn the base metal, I feel, because otherwise you'd just be using the Investiture and leaving the metal behind, which is... not a pleasant thought. In my opinion, burning a godmetal is "Allomancy" the way sticking a random Invested piece of metal in someone is "Hemalurgy": same fundamental mechanics, but different in some key ways that make categorization difficult, and with one being a more broad and base mechanic than the other. Apparently atium was the spike they thought stole that. Which is interesting, considering "must be refined".... I don't think so. Just Mistborn like Vin and Elend. That's a good point, actually. Though, the fact a younger Breath does make a Returned feel noticeably better than an old one does shows it doesn't not have an effect on them, either... hm..... This is a really weird question, now. Huh, interesting connection. Yeah, probably. Yeah. A relevant WoB: So it seems like it works best if it's similar to the Awakener. Perhaps because "rekeying" to match the object requires less of a change? Or perhaps because the Connection between the Awakener and object is stronger and so not as much power is needed to forge the pathway between the two? Idk exactly. Light (Stormlight and Lifelight, anyway, though not Voidlight, because for some Ado-forsaken reason Lifelight is exactly the same emotionally as Stormlight, down to being "a storm in her veins") really likes acting and doing and storming, which (for Stormlight) makes sense if it comes from, well, the Storm. Which one, out of curiosity? It's mostly a combination of a few of them. Unfortunately, the question's been RAFO'd for being plot-relevant to the Nightblood novel. And then there is the in-story information given to us about how Lifeless retain some measure of their skills from before their death. Would it be fair to say that the Lifeless would be considered by Vasher to be Cognitive Shadows of this nature: For the weaker ones, just kill the body again, make sure no one Invests the soul with more strength, and they’ll slip away in a few minutes. Brandon Sanderson This is RAFO material in that it is a possible plot point for a future Warbreaker book. (Sorry.) Rhythm of War Preview Q&As (Oct. 15, 2020) So they almost seem to be incredibly weak Cognitive Shadows, perhaps even halfway between a Cognitive Shadow of the old person and a completely new spren. Slaughter and Despair, so many things seem to be way more of a gradient than we'd previously thought... That's a good point. Might have to do with the way Breath seems to attach itself in a more Spiritual way, while Stormlight seems to reside more in the Physical? That's a good point too, Stormlight seems to love trying to escape, while Breath seems to latch on and integrate itself. Huh, never considered that. Yeah, nice one. Oooh, yeah, that makes sense. Yeah that was about my reaction to seeing the example too Huh, forgot about that one. Pretty much. Makes sense to me. Otoh, the Spiritual is... pretty weird on its own, really. So maybe? But maybe not? Or maybe sorta both? Idek... The way the Realms relate with each other is weird. Lol yeah probably not. I'm guessing they'll dig more into things in Era 3 and the back half, but probably not truly hit it for a while. I imagine it'll be important in Dragonsteel, at the very least, though. Yep!

Apparently they sometimes don't obey Dalinar's orders, and..... that's about all we know, I think.

Well well well, looky what we have here...

I could see that. I think this is partly where the Intention aspect of things comes into the picture. While it's a change, it's a relatively minor one, and done with the Intent to Preserve. While there's a limit to how far that can stretch things, I think as long as it's not too drastic, it can help. This is all made a lot more complicated by one thing: in my opinion, WoBs strongly imply that as a general rule, anyone can burn any godmetal, as long as they have a tie to the Shard. (And if you listen to the audio on that one, he says it in a kind of odd way, as if he's trying to think about how much to say.) There's actually even more WoBs that relate to that topic, I've got my own theory on what's going on there. But the situation's clearly a bit different from the way it appears on the surface, and that makes it really hard to determine just how far Preservation went or didn't go. Ah, good point I didn't even think about, so I feel that helps narrow things down for what happened. Imo, that makes it even less likely it was doing any sort of fundamental change, as opposed to just altering which "genes" naturally express themselves somehow. EDIT: New Word of Peter that's relevant: Preservation didn't change Allomancy after all. Which is basically my theory, so I shall rejoice Probably, I was viewing that as a step in working out how to breathe it in but those might not be quite the same issue. Hmm, that's an interesting idea. I still wonder whether his Shardic composition has changed at all from using Stormlight to live for such a long time or not. I could see it going either way. Agreed. Breath is weird because the quantity of it in a person doesn't seem to change much (though there is variation, going off the Ars Arcanum), but apparently they grow less "vigorous" as a person ages. Might be related to the way Stormlight in use recharges sand quicker than Stormlight sitting there, the Investiture is more active and "alive", so to speak? Hm, could definitely be. My thought on it has mostly been that Breath might be a bit more... "shaped", so to speak, while the Lights and mist are more formless, but haven't put a ton of thought into the specifics. Heh, yeah, I get that you just want to add one little detail but next thing you know... There's a reason I haven't finished a proper theory post in a while now Oh yeesh yeah that's wild. Lol yeah. Always a combination of "how the heck did I miss that" and "ooo what else is there?" In a similar vein, and even also about Awakening... I recently stumbled across the WoBs that kind of sort of imply a Lifeless is almost a Cognitive Shadow, and that was a weird one for me to consider. Hmmm very good question. If I had to guess, it's because of the way Breaths have that weird attribute of kinda latching onto the person (hence why they can be taken offworld and stuff). Like, they no longer conflict or something (after all, a Radiant can take in quite a bit of Stormlight even when they're bonded not just to their Blade spren but to a dozen Plate spren too, so clearly not all Investiture prevents further Investment, perhaps just Investiture with conflicting Identities or something). Yeah I'd guess the fact there's not really anything you're specifically telling it to do, just wanting it to do the exact thing it's currently doing but in someone else, probably means it doesn't require too complex a visualization. Heh, never noticed that before. Yeah, Zahel's training really shows sometimes. Hey, Brandon considers Spider-Man a magic system! Yuuuuuuuuuup. Yeah, it's pretty much the magic system, as opposed to just a magic system. That would make sense. They also seem to have been involved in worldhopping for a while now, we know there's been a lot of traffic between Nalthis and Roshar for a long time, which probably helped just via things like the Five Scholars using that knowledge and spreading it, even if most of the world doesn't know where they got it. I'd argue there's still a filter, but would agree it's a lot less filtered or restricted compared to a lot of other magics. (Specifically, it is the Investiture that gives them/enhances their life and thought, and beyond odd complicated things we don't understand like the memory Commands, its effects are indeed limited to this. It makes people more alive and connected to the world around them, it brings life to nonliving things and grants them the ability to think, it restores the dead to a crude facsimile of what they once were, etc.) But compare that to something like Allomantic gold or Basic Lashings... yeah, definitely much looser, agreed. Yeah, it does have a use, same as how "end positive/neutral/negative" do have a use for getting across the idea of what is happening in some magics, even if it falls apart when applied more broadly. But within the spot where it's relevant, it's useful, yeah. I do think they're pretty similar, but singer forms seem to function via a deeper bond with one spren that changes the singer on a fundamental level, while the other bonds seem to be to multiple spren in a way that causes less of a change outside the one thing that's needed. Perhaps, rough analogy, it's the difference between Kaladin's bond to Syl and Kaladin's bond to the windspren? Fun fact, Brandon's actually compared the forms to Hemalurgy before. Yeah, definitely. I doubt if they were sitting in the Physical that would be happening. Yeahh I usually just kinda try and ignore the way those things relate to this stuff because it hurts my brain lol. If all that's needed to make gravity affect someone differently is just to convince their soul that the planet's a different direction... yeah no I'll just let Syl and her pals get away with their agreement to pretend lol. Probably, but I expect it to be pretty wibbly-wobbly with how core the Cognitive and Spiritual are to most things.

Yeah, he's mentioned that as things go on, it's started to feel odd to have godmetals be a Mistborn-only thing.

Ah, another WoB on the topic I just stumbled across. More indication that godmetals are perhaps ordinarily supposed to be burned by anyone.

There actually is a break when he merges with the Well, and then wakes up in it.

I'm just not really sure how much control Vessels truly have over the magics, even ones that are "theirs". For example, even on Scadrial, where the entire planet is of the Shards, Preservation had to resort to (Spiritual) genetic manipulation of the Mistings to """swap""" atium in for one of the sixteen, and Mistborn could still use the """removed""" metals just fine. So I feel that, if the Fused are accessing it via a method that is not made of Honor's power, he probably can't do much to affect it. Yeah there's sooo many factors that could be at play here. That's a good point, and I do agree. Just wanted to bring the alternative up, just in case. Oh god that is a terrifying thought. I'm of the opinion that, going off Venli being able to use VL for her Surgebinding without a notable difference, SL might very well be able to just "plug in" in the place of the mists if you work out a way to breathe it in, which would be pretty scary. I agree with most, but I'm actually not so sure on this one. If you define Awakening as essentially "taking a fragment of the Investiture that gives life and giving it to something else", then I think it's reasonable to speculate that giving Breath to someone is the same thing, just with the thing already having a mind and so not needing one provided. Heck, the Command even drains color for the transfer like the rest: And as we see with Lifeless (and NB) versus Awakened ropes or something, Awakening already has a bit of variation with how it affects things, able to make both Invested objects with Commands and also properly living beings. There's also this WoB: So I'm not sure that's truly a separate thing. (Nalthian magic is a fun one, because I like to think about just how closely the things you can do align with the Intent behind the Investiture. A Breath is the Investiture used to give life to someone, so when given away it can make someone more alive, or it can bring an otherwise inanimate object to life. A divine Breath is used to perfect and repair the Returned, so when given to someone else, that's what it does, perfects and heals them. Compare to somewhere like Scadrial, where the powers are.... not that Preservation-y :lol:) That's a fair point, actually. That's fair, and I don't fully disagree with that. It's in the same sort of neighborhood as "is the boon and curse a magic system", I think. Is "Shards do what Shards do" a "magic system"? Probably not one in the vein of something like Allomancy, but I think you could make the argument it's a very primal expression of the base Cosmere system of magic, in which case I think calling it a different """magic system""" from Radiant-style Surge manipulation works, in the context of the Stormlight Archive. Agreed. I'm not fully sure where I think singer forms fall on the spectrum, I think I'd probably put them closer to a Radiant bond than a fabrial, but not reaaally either. You say this, but... Lasting Integrity... And I think you could almost argue that Surgebinding is debating the laws of physics, with all the "voice" and Command and "attuned" stuff... Gahhhckhhhgrde. Lol true enough.

If you double-click/double-tap an image when editing, you can set alt-text via the Image Title field. It's not super obvious that that's a thing you can do, though. (I myself only discovered it recently, though I tried to make use of it in yesterday's roundup article once I realized it could be done.)

I don't think she's said, but she's mentioned that due to the novellas she has a backlog of things she needs to work on this year, so I'd guess it's probably not more Skyward.

Moved to the Cosmere board, as there were some preeeeeetty major non-Warbreaker spoilers going on. As for the question at hand, as Frustration says, he was very quick and stabbed NB into a pretty massive Investiture source very quickly. Nightblood's consumption grows fast, but starts slow enough a normal person does have some time before they're consumed.

It does, but this often bugs out if you visit another page on the forums while writing (even if it's in an entire other tab). Yeah that's fair, it just makes sense to me with the "Shards are just supercharged spren" idea Brandon keeps talking about for most of the concepts to apply on a more fundamental level. But I could see it being Shardic too. Definitely curious about this too. After all, most of the Stonewards aren't likely to be experimenting in ways that would trigger a reaction, so Khriss's knowledge on the restrictions might be from old documents or witnesses or something (probably wherever she found out about the Lashings during the WoK times). Hmmm, good question. My gut reaction is no, because of how tiny a level the Deepest Ones must be working on, but if the restrictions prevent breaking the bonds but not manipulation of them, it's possible. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm. That's very possible. I go back and forth on what I think is going on there honestly, but that definitely sounds plausible to me. In which case, a.) might mean Honor restricted it overall, b.) might mean Honor had a strong enough tie to BAM to influence her in some ways (could be related to why her capture cut the tones off for the Sibling), or c.) might have had to do with some sort of backdoor via Connection to something he has Connection to or something. Yeah, it's interesting. Huh, didn't think about that. Yeah, that's interesting. Though, Marasi DOES leak mist when using the Bands, so perhaps it's just a matter of the amounts in Allomancy being incredibly small compared to the amounts in Surgebinding, so it's less noticeable. (After all, as highly Invested as the Bands are, they aren't even Invested enough to be considered a Shardblade. Radiant spren seem to be pretty big compared to the amount of Investiture in other Invested Art access methods, though obviously they aren't fully Invested into the Radiant, at least at first.) Under the way I think about it, that would go under the magic system that "includes fabrials", as Brandon put it (or something close to that, looking WoBs up on mobile is a pain if I don't want to risk this post again, lol). Especially now that we've learned ancient fabrials are a spren manifesting, and going off Kaza's description of another mind reinforcing her will (again, can't look up wording atm), it sounds to me more like a spren directly acting. (This DOES lead to the implication that Kaladin commanding the windspren to do things is a different magic system accessed in a similar but distinct way from Surgebinding, which probably is something you'd disagree with lol.) But as mentioned, not really a great way out there to separate things cleanly, so your way works too. Ah, but there's some "fun" WoBs where Brandon says that those categorizations are partially cultural, and that he would actually disagree with ex. the idea Feruchemy is a balance (he believes it leans more towards Preservation, though canonically it's up for debate), so even that isn't necessarily solid.... AAaaaaaaaaaaaaa Lmao yeah. Ultimately all of these are constructs for discussion's sake and they're gonna be a bit fuzzy for the sake of convenience.

Why would it only be a singer that would hear this voice, and only on the Second Ideal? (And Eshonai does say somethat that sounds pretty much exactly like the Second Ideal of her order.) Most of the time they actually don't, some (but not all) of Kal's Ideals and Lopen's Ideals get the SF, Bondsmiths get their spren, and Venli's Second gets the femalen voice. I believe that's about it, besides Shallan falling into Shadesmar that one time. Dude's the closest thing left to the Shard of Honor (including not-quite-but-sort-of omnipresence), and a spren of Connection as well. Him being able to sense that the bond deepened makes sense to me, especially with the Radiant spren being largely of Honor (along with Cultivation, of course). Him establishing the organization. As we see in Nohadon's vision, there's nothing about Surgebinders inherently making them helpful and preservative, and they can have the exact opposite effect. And as we see with the Skybreakers, the Ideals don't stop them from straight up going over to Odium, even. But an organization that polices things and keeps a steady presence can, so it makes more sense to me for that to be what Ishar established (especially as he had to threaten them into it, which wouldn't make sense for the Ideals, but would make sense for a voluntary organization).

Why would Venli be the only one to hear the voice, if so? Even Eshonai doesn't. (Setting aside the question of whether Ishar did anything magic with the oaths, which I still don't believe.)

Hmmm good point, could definitely be.

Are you bleeping kidding me... why does it not ask for confirmation before accidentally reloading like most sites do when you've typed something... AAAA @Inquisitor #5I'll respond to a few points I can rewrite quickly now, but a longer and more in-depth response is gonna probably need to wait til morning because I'm too tired to redo it all, lol. I agree with the first half, dunno on the second. I think it's more likely that when cultures have very similar ideas, they grow connected (used in a mundane way here, but probably tied to capital-C anyway tbh) in the Spiritual and Cognitive Realms, and so when the magic system taps into the concept, it taps into the broader one (directly or indirectly, idk) and this leads to parallels. A lot of them do seem tied to the Essences (Reachers are made of metal, inkspren look like oil, peakspren are made of stone, etc), but yeah some like the Cryptics aren't super clear-cut. I think that even under my interpretation, you could make a similar argument, that rather than being one pure Surge, they're kind of a more complicated thing that nonetheless are very close to the pure Surges (honorspren aren't just an embodiment of Gravitation, they're the idea of attraction and kind of revolving around something, along with the idea of sticking together and being bound, filtered through Honor's lens of duty and nobility, and filtered through Cultivation's lens of nurturing and life, hence the Radiant Ideals being tied to protection and the spren tending to be attracted to natural leaders and those who form strong interpersonal bonds). He did, but that makes sense to me, considering the spren are significantly of him and it tends to be fueled by his Light. Lots of involvement from Honor's Investiture for him to intervene via, even if it's not directly "his". And once he started going mad, the rules started falling away, going off what SF says about Melishi, so it seems to in some ways have been more an active process. Lol, true, that's vague. In this case, I'm referring to burning metals in Allomancy, drawing Aons in AonDor, and.... who even knows for Surgebinding......... it feels a lot more direct in the latter. In this case, the rough idea for the mechanisms (which I have not fully defined in-depth, just to get the idea across) would be fabrials -> spren in the PR using the power on their own (sometimes triggered by metal), Surgebinding -> a physical being using the power via a bond, Voidbinding -> ?????? (perhaps a spren using the power anchored via a bond or something). Lot more fundamental than something more abstracted away like Allomancy. I.... sooooooorta agree, sort of don't. I view it less as an Honor thing and more a fundamental function of Connection and Investment at the heart of most magics. I agree fuel source certainly doesn't seem to define the magic, though. Yeah, this is why I don't love using the power-based definitions, though in-world I do expect they'll probably delineate it that way and I've resigned myself to that. There's not really a neat way to do it—if Hemalurgy is the power, is taking memories from Breath Hemalurgy? If Hemalurgy is stabbing with metal to remove Investiture, is raysium Hemalurgy? If Hemalurgy is granting power via an Invested spike, could stabbing someone with an unkeyed metalmind possibly perform Hemalurgy (if this would indeed work, which is uncertain, but Brandon has said putting Invested metal in people often does weird things in general)? If we say it's the Shard, are Aviar sand masters? If we say it's only the combination specific combination, alright, but then is Compounding its own magic system? Every rule has counterintuitive results. May not always be straight up violence, but probably a fierceness, at least. Something more Odious, more emotional, more active, more consuming, more aggressive. When you're curious, you're eager and wonder. When you're craving, you want it, you need it, you will do anything to get it. Agreed, or at least extremely similar. Especially with how Sja-anat compares her power to corrupt spren to Transformation... which is exactly what the Sibling says Raboniel is using to corrupt them.

I'm not sure. From what the Sibling says in another chapter, it sounds like they've been forcing it the past year or so, but that before Dalinar was sworn, they really were knocked out, so to speak: But that doesn't fully contradict what you said, either, there's an interpretation that'd fit still if they woke up intentionally when they felt a Bondsmith. That quote you found is curious, though, so perhaps it really was something they did purposefully. A related note on the general topic: reading through the gem archive and sorting the entries by reverse drawer number (Coppermind's table is very helpful), I wonder if the new Radiants just... got the order backwards, lol. After all, there's no real reason they'd know what the old Radiants used in their own numbering system, and starting at the wrong end is a pretty simple way to mess up. If you read it sorted the other way around, we in order have: Start off with them talking about the plan Have people saying goodbye to the Tower, but not anything about its functions Have the first mentions of divisions growing to truly scary levels A gem saying that Honor seems to be changing, as we know he was in the final days Have the Elsecallers saying they will take the burden of protecting "Honor's Drop", a perfect ruby A mention that the enemy is pushing towards Feverstone Keep More people saying goodbye, but again, no mention of loss of function As we get towards the very end, we finally have a mention of not being safe from the Unmade, which may refer to Re-Shephir's incursion, as well as generally the protections failing (the first mention of anything stopping working) A couple more people talking about leaving In the very first/last drawer (1-1), we have the zircons that discuss the Sibling's withdrawal Which in that order, makes a lot more sense with the timeline we know, imo.