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That makes sense: I also agree that the books seem to be having some of the characters dip further and further each time, which is intentional but uncomfortable for the reader some times. To be honest, I skip a lot of the heaviest parts on rereads, especially for Kaladin. I also don't criticize that choice; generally after doing Stormlight stuff I reread Skyward stuff. Those are a little more straight action which is a nice break.

Thanks for saying this. I think people are underestimating the literary device thing a lot. ROW is very, very long. Just keeping it simple in terms of how that information was quantified from a storytelling perspective is a good call. I think Sanderson could have done more to explain that Navani was careful (something more akin to what Shai does in Emperor's Soul), but again, ROW is really long and Sanderson has stated repeatedly that he was really uncomfortable writing so much science into the book. I also think people misunderstand how fevered creation works. You don't operate rationally. I've done scientific work, and re-examined it a year later to find obvious conclusions that didn't even cross my mind in the first pass. It's not stupidity, it's pre-occupation.

What do you mean by "low points"? Like difficult to read, or poorly written, or boring? The difficult to read thing I get. Both OB and ROW get pretty dark at times, especially for folks with personal connections to the various issues explored. OB is my favorite so far, though Navani's portions of ROW are my favorite individual passages in any Sanderson thing so far. Science is fun! For unpopular opinions, I guess I really don't like TLM; it seemed super unfocused.

In terms of whose shades they are, they're probably mostly human: Timepoint 1: Shortly after shattering. Ambition is hanging out in the system, making a magic system fueled by shades created during rituals. There are humans on both continents, but only the ones on the Forest Continent are using the magic system. We know this happens: Timepoint 2: Ambition and Odium clash, and Ambition leaves the system, with big chunks of both shards (and Mercy's shard) being left in the system. With Ambition gone, the magic system changes, and shades become mindless killing machines. They depopulate the forests, turning everything predatory into more shades. A couple of things from Odium's forces are left behind and get turned into shades (the Deepest Ones, probably not human). Timepoint 3: Forescouts head over to the Forests to check it out, discover the shades. Timepoint 4: Evil arrives (probably an Aether) and destroys the Homeland, people flee to the Forests. Worth noting that there are animals in the Forests, just no predators.

Oh boy I think you might be interested in this thread. It's sort of similar to your theory, but instead has the four "big shards" being filtered through each of the dawnshards into the 16 rather than each "big shard" being refracted into four different but similar versions by the same dawnshard. To pick an example to see if I've gotten it right: one of the big shards could be something like Natural Law. Then we use the "Change" dawnshard (the only one we know about) on that big shard, and get Cultivation, Ruin, Invention, and Endowment. That's a plausible theory. If you instead used the maybe extant "Unite" dawnshard, you'd get some way different stuff. I think if someone has some real knowledge of what the individual notes and colors were for all the shards, you could probably generate some serious proof/negative proof for this empirically. Some of this already exists in SP3: Two other interesting questions: First, what happens if you use a dawnshard to shatter a shard again. Would you end up with 4 "mini shards"? Second, what would happen if you used the same dawnshard on all 4 of "big shards" and the other three just twiddled their thumbs?

Not sure I agree on that. Preservation is on the weaker side in terms of connection between the art and the stated intention, though generally an End-positive art is probably on the preservation side of thing since you'd need one to fight against entropy to maintain a status quo. On the other hand, Ruin has an art very in line with his intention; the surges also make a lot of sense. All of them fall within the general guidelines of binding (honor/bind dawnshard) or changing (cultivating/change dawnshard). Sand Mastery makes a ton of sense as Autonomy! Brandon states in the postscript in Arcanum Unbounded that sand mastery is all about skill and finesse, not power. Those things are the soul of autonomy in my mind. We now know from SP3: I think we can do some eliminating: Devotion, Dominion, Preservation/Ruin/Harmony, Endowment, Ambition, Whimsy, Honor, Virtuosity and Mercy all seem very unlikely based on either their names or their status prior to SP4. That leaves: Cultivation, Odium, Autonomy, Invention, Valor, and the Unknown. From what we've seen of Cultivation, it seems unlikely, but not quite as unlikely as some of the others. Odium could definitely fit, and he has some experience with heart-based investiture; this definitely seems like a cruel harsh world. He lived on Braize for a ton of time so he'd feel at home. All that said, he isn't big on granting any form of investiture so far (though that could change with Todium). Voidbinding is really rare compared to something like Allomancy. I think the unknown is unlikely unless it has a different intent than we're expecting (wisdom). The point about Valor is a good one, I could see that being likely, same with Autonomy. Autonomy is also already an active shard (as opposed to totally unknown like Valor), and is known to have a fondness for places that force humans to be strong or die. Invention could be possible, mostly because Invention seems like a shard who could be in a lot of places.

Definitely some cosmere spoilers I don't think Virtuosity was committing suicide. While the tortured artist trope exists, I think this is different: Yumi's society is highly self sacrificing. While that could be a revisionist interpretation of a suicide, I think it's more likely that Virtuosity splintered herself for a reason beyond their own troubles. It could have been a consequence of an act to protect the world, or it could have been something else. Personally, without much support, I think they splintered themselves to provide the massive quantities of raw investiture required for "a planet when a god has been killed" stuff to happen. Seems like a very unique and powerful version of patronage of the arts to me. What better way to allow for art than to give a bunch of artists the fabric of the universe to play with?

Just worth noting that SP4 probably takes place at some point after which most of bridge 4 has died of natural causes. Kal definitely has some sort of interesting fate planned, so he might be "alive" after some fashion. Sigzil similarly seems to be more in the "special case" category that the natural aging category. While it's sad to think of our favorite characters dying, it's just part of life for 99.99999% of people in the cosmere.

That makes sense!

I think it's worth noting that Returned aren't ageless. They initially start at the fifth heightening in terms of investiture, but cognitive shadows by nature don't seem to age. Non-cognitive shadows with the fifth heightening or Elantrians, who are both supposed to be ageless, are better examples to ask this question (which is a great question) with. Possible causes: Their level of investiture changes over time, allowing them to age when it dips below a certain point. Yoki-Hijo aren't super crazy invested when they weren't cognitive shadows (or maybe Yumi's insane stacking rocks skills have let her accumulate investiture over 1700 years). The Yoki-Hijo (not Yumi after being brought back to life, since they are probably different) are immortal/ageless when they want to be. It's implied that they were imprisoned if they didn't do their duty. I think there is a WOB which says that ageless folks can choose to stop being ageless if they want. It is implied that the number of Yoki-Hijo changes, since they say "currently 14" a lot. Also, the tone of Yumi's self image isn't really consistent with this, but it's a option at least.

I'm not sure that it's off-base. In WoR, Shallan attaches lightweavings to Pattern's pattern to move around and act as a distraction. I think Pattern's pattern could be classified as Pattern's cognitive element as it manifests in the physical realm. In Stormlight they talk about pattern's pattern being maddening outside of the CR too. I'm pretty sure Shallan has some special stuff going on in the art department; even as a lightweaver she still does some other stuff with her art that is a little bit outside of the scope of what we've seen other lightweavers do. Also, we know that Elsecallers have the ability to see the cognitive elements of spren in the PR at least some of the time (Yasnah at the Battle of Thalyen Field); so that might be something that all lightweavers can do. I'm sure folks here have categorized whether her ability to see the Cognitive Cryptics is a Lightweaver thing or a Shallan thing. I think the force projections are really the unknown element here: we've seen them in Elantris (in the climax when Raoden makes forcefields), but I think that's the only spot. My guess: the lightweaving forms a framework (a wireframe) and Hoid stapled a bunch of forcefields together to provide the "mass" behind it. Basically the lightweaving lets Hoid use his internalized knowledge of the human form (much like the lightweavers creating human illusions without all being trained artists). Once the outline is there, he can do the more precise math based stuff like the forcefields with precision: kind of like the opposite of putting a template over something you're going to spray paint in order to get crisp(ish) lines. It helps that we know lightweavings can generate some of the other sensory information (like sound and heat, also probably lasers)) that might give away a positronic robot wearing a human suit. On the other hand: Syl gives Kal a hug in Oathbringer when they're both in the Cognitive Realm. If you're Kal and really jonesing for a hug from your friend you can take a jaunt through an Oathgate and say hi! Little harder if you're Syl, but I think she is sufficiently capable at annoying Kal until he does what she wants, so she could probably get him to. I think their bigger problem is the lack of time for hugs: A notorious problem when you're important.

I think some of your concerns are valid about the book. As the quoted sections show, I think that the implication is that certain individuals are born with naturally more willpower: the spirits (who are splinters of a god who probably would be good at identifying potential via futuresight (Virtuosity)), presumably can detect this and invest them. The investiture gives them the ability to mechanically resist the machine, while their natural willpower gives them the inclination to do so. I think it's implied that Liyun believes that suffering breeds strength. She doesn't necessarily want Yumi to be in pain, but clearly sees it as necessary for Yumi to be the best Yoki-hijo possible (hence the years of abuse). Part of Yumi's growth is discovering that Liyun is wrong, and that she and her sister yoki-hijo don't need this suffering to drive them. Regarding the "what does Yumi see in painter" question: Brandon Sanderson is an artist. He wrote this book for his wife. I think he may have unintentionally downplayed the positive characteristics of Painter out of self-consciousness. Very minor cosmere spoiler ahead: While I don't know you @KaladinWorldsinger, you say you identify with and understand why Painter does what he does. If you do (like I do), it might be worth pointing out that Painter has struggles with self worth. If you see him as a stand in for yourself to some degree, and also struggle with self worth, it might be difficult for you (like it was for me) to see him as worthy of someone like Yumi. Last thing I'd say, if you get literal sparks when touching someone, even if it's through magical means, you probably are going to be inclined to be interested in them. I wouldn't disagree that it's a literary cheat to give this as a reason for two people to be together, but it is a reason nonetheless.

I really liked the book, but didn't like the pacing of the ending: it has to do with the Hoidism of telling the story where all the stuff you care about is in the epilogues because he's the important part in his own story. It felt like the whole story, which I loved, was marginalized as part of a tourism ad for the planet. I do think the sacrifice component is a little overblown: part of Yumi's development is learning that she doesn't have to sacrifice herself for her society like she has been. She's a person who deserves to live and love without such an immense burden. I think leaving it at her "getting over" her objections to sacrificing herself is kind of diminutive of her journey. Plus there is Painter's journey to consider. One of his big conflicts in the book is that he lets himself be unhappy through inaction. He doesn't fight to earn his friends' trust back, and he doesn't fight to be good at his job. A big part of his growth is that he stops deluding himself into thinking he doesn't have agency. He makes the choice to pull Yumi back into reality because he can. As far as the deaths of central characters, I think Sanderson is really careful about the concept of resurrection, but it's a huge part of the Cosmere theme (i.e. what if normal people had godlike power). For many of us, a big ticket on the god-power bucket list would be to bring back loved ones. Each time it happens, which I think is 3 times (people spoilered since you're new): he makes sure to keep the divine fiat in clear view. I don't think that literally everyone who dies is "just chilling in the CR" until their story beat shows up. With the potential exception of Yumi (who I think thematically has to live) it's always a huge twist of fortune to have them survive or return. Plus Sanderson likes paying his characters for their suffering with some happiness: If you think of the body count Sanderson has wracked up, I'm pretty sure he's not over-using the resurrection stuff.

This is similar to something in Stormlight, when Shallan draws people in their "best" form rather than what they are. The way I thought of it is that Painter, as a Cognitive Shadow, harnessed his spiritual connection to painting and paintbrushes to summon one that was more real than just channeling the soul of a paintbrush. Minor somewhat suspect SP4 spoiler

Just finished the Novella. This was too much information, not just on a Roshar scale, but a cosmere scale. Why is this a novella? Seems like we got the ostensible answers to: How Adonalsium was killed What the Dawnshards are The sleepless - their activities in general Larkins The scouring of Aimia Yalb (kinda weird to put some random dude in the same category as how God was killed) Windrunner Third Ideal Deep Dive The Sighted (Horneaters) Luck Spren fixing the mass problem (and by extension, how Rock drew the shardbow) Definitely more that I am missing. We are missing a lot of smaller details to these answers, but the general overarching questions are partially answered. This is way more than we usually get; pretty much the most information we got about the inner workings of the Cosmere since Secret History. Some of this stuff seems so important that I'd be surprised if they don't have to explicitly repeat it in a future Stormlight book. What do other people think; is this too much information? Or did we just get the hanging ends of all these questions? Note: This isn't a strict complaint, just an observation.

The Vax that Ati is talking about could be different from the Vax that Khriss is talking about. That's the basis of my point. I think we can agree, that if they are different things, then the naming is not coincidental. Given the circumstances and the two speakers, it seems like the Vax that Ati mentions predates the Vax that Khriss mentions. We know that the Vax that Khriss mentions is a place. As Ati-Vax predates Khriss-Vax, we can't assume anything about Ati-Vax from her statement. I.e. A implies B, but B doesn't imply A. That leaves only the situation in which Ati says "Vax?" which I've argued seems like a person's name.

Just to be clear: I think it is safe to assume that Vax is currently (Ars Arcanum time of writing) at least a planet (or of planet-like significance, like the only habitable city on a planet, or a habitable sub-astral more significant than the Ire Keep in Secret History, or the largest continent on Yolen). However, circumstance is important. There is a Washington street in my city. If Benjamin Franklin is saying "Washington" there is a solid chance his is talking about George Washington. If I say "Washington" there is a solid chance I am talking about the street in my city, or the city in my country, or the state in my country. This example speaks to exactly how Vax could refer to a person at one time, and a place at another time. In fact, I could even be talking about George Washington if I was to say "Washington." This further muddles the certainty that Ati is referring to place-Vax vs. person-Vax. I do definitely agree that Khriss at least was referring to a place when she wrote the Ars Arcanum. I don't agree that her writing proves Ati was talking about a place.

You're right, forgot about that one. Same issue applies that it may have been a person, not a place. I do think Ati probably realized that he was on a subastral. That doesn't imply that he was addressing Vax based on the fact that he was on a particular subastral. Again, it doesn't seem natural to me to just address a place when you appear there suddenly. Like I wouldn't say "White House?!" if I was transported there instantaneously. If Abraham Lincoln was right in front of me when I appeared, I would probably say, "Lincoln?!" It might be true that he believed that he could link the subastral to an individual; and that individual would possibly respond to a summons. That points me an ascended individual. Either that, or we are back to talking about a name applying to both a person and a place (with an implied link). It's also very possible that this was just a poorly written piece of dialog which didn't take into account the natural reaction of a person to appearing suddenly in an unknown place. It is a relatively early Sanderson work. I tend to ere on the side of Sanderson knowing exactly what he is doing though, and his coy-ness about calling Vax a place makes me think that there is more to it. If it is just a place, I'm guessing that a continent/place on Yolen is possible. There is a little bit of background here. Not to get off topic here, but Ati and Leras seemed super close friends (with a possible romantic angle, which is how I choose to read the situation). So while we can safely assume any gathering of 5+ shards implies Yolen; I think that just the two of them travelling around together and encountering a place or person called Vax before creating Scadrial is also possible. There is definitely a WoB which says that most of the shards wandered around before settling down.

I'm not sure we know that 3 is correct. We do know that at least Ati interacted with or knew of something called Vax at some point (probably before Scadrial). I do agree with 4, except for the major part. It may be major however, we just don't know. Seems likely that it is an invested place at the very least. On 5, it is worth noting the time differential. Ati was not sane until he was separated from the shard of Ruin. He is unclear on how much time has passed between his arrival on Scadrial and his death. I think I've mentioned it already, but it would be weird if you woke up in an unknown place and just shouted "New York!" That makes me consider that Ati thinks he is addressing an individual. Given the time differential, we could be dealing with a place named after a person (who could be a shard/invested and still alive). Last thing, I think we have a WoB stating that Vax is not Hoid, but if it is a place only, that doesn't mean much.

I added some extra stuff in bold. I tend to think that Odium doesn't have the win completely locked up and has just been waiting to show off how in-hand the situation was. The biggest reason for this is that is isn't interesting. It makes for more interesting writing when we have more equal footing. We definitely haven't seen all of his power, but I think we have seen a good amount of it. It's possible that this is basically proof that the Honor blades did not give access to functionally infinite investiture. Or if they did, Honor controlled the flow as to not open himself up to direct conflict with Odium. With the kind of power you correctly state they would have with functionally infinite investiture, it seems unlikely they could lose. So maybe we should look at it like that?

This is the passage you mentioned I think (she repeats this thought to the Stormfather, but it is the same information). That betrayal seems unconnected to the changing of forms, but I suppose that it could be the betrayal, or part of the betrayal, that is mentioned in the Song of Spren. This is not correct. The Gods of the Dawnsingers were, probably, Cultivation and Honor. We don't have a direct statement, but we know that The Stormfather, the Nightwatcher, and presumably the Sibling (or the spren of stone), were not quite sentient before the arrival of Honor and Cultivation. I have a hard time believing that they could have commanded the Dawnsingers. We have no evidence that the Dawnsingers were not aware that Honor and Cultivation were present and guiding the three spren, if the three spren did directly address them. In the Eila Stele, they refer to their gods, and to spren, stone, and wind. They aren't saying the spren, stone, and wind are their gods. And in the passage with Eshonai directly states that the Stormfather was not a God of the Listeners at least. The Gods of the Listeners were their ancestors, and by extension Odium (the Listeners feared their gods, and worked against their return. They did refer to them as gods however). To me, it seemed the Dawnsingers worshiped the spren of the planet before Honor and Cultivation arrived, and then worshiped Honor and Cultivation. There was a lot of years between the arrival of Honor and Cultivation and the arrival of Odium. The wiki at least explicitly states that Honor was a god of the Dawnsingers. I doubt it. They still used forms without power after Odium arrived, and those forms were taken during the Highstorm. The Everstorm didn't even exist, so they had to change forms during the Highstorm until the arrival of Everstorm. It is possible that the only reason we see Parshmen change during the first Everstorm is that it was restoring their identities. I.E. They were in a form before the False Desolation, and when BAM was imprisoned, they turned to slaveform. When the Everstorm arrived, they returned to the form that was still part of their identity (more accurately, a form that was part of their parent's identity, or one that they had become marginally closer too during their years as slaves, or just a random form). We don't have any information that a Parshman can change between the common forms during a Everstorm, only that they can ascend to become a fused only during the Everstorm. We don't know how long passed before the Listeners regained the ability to change out of Dullform, but it was only about 2000 years (according to Jasnah) between the current day and the False Desolation. I doubt they were formless for more than 100 years, since living in Dullform for that long in the danger of the Shattered Plains would kill them pretty quickly.

That's a rough comparison to swallow lol.

Pattern, Syl, and Wyndle. Not as big on Ivory, but we haven't seen him as much. Nightblood is also there (although it isn't his only appearance, I like him better with Szeth than Vasher. Vasher never seemed to take him seriously as a consciousness, but Szeth treats him as more of an equal). The spren don't get enough love. To me, these kind of characters are what makes the SA great. Lot of books have magic, but only some have magic plus a glowy/shapey/viney/inky/smoky friend that comes with.

Seems likely to me that he'll be doing that or something similar. Honestly, Zigsil asks Kaladin a bunch of questions in OB about how the radiants are supposed to work, and I was a little disappointed we don't get some resolution on that. There will have to be some discussion on what their place in the world is. Now that we have multiple radiants, we'll hopefully see some different approaches being tried.

Ya you're right. Either way it'll be a long wait. There are two semi-conflicting WoB on the subject of when this information will be revealed: versus Both are old, and both are vague.