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I'm not sure I understand you. The Listeners change form in a Highstorm, but that practice doesn't seem to have stopped at any point (except during right before the recreance). And the listeners we followers of Honor and Cultivation for thousands of years before humans arrived. When did the Stormfather betray them?

I've read through all the WoB on Heralds in the Arcanum. He pretty much RAFO's any question that he is asked. He even expanded on that once and said that "He doesn't want people paying attention to them yet." I like this discussion, and the other one about how the heralds were killed, but the speculation might be premature, since we wont have anything 1st person for another 5 books (Shalash and Taln are supposedly books 9 and 10 I think). Thats like a decade of waiting before the speculation is resolved.

It think we are due for a Gaz and or Vhatha POV chapter. I'm hoping that this POV would help clear up some of these changes. Honestly his changes is pretty similar to the bridgemen, and we bought into those because we got to see all of it happen. If we could see it referenced in a POV, we could at least assume that he went through a similar change offscreen.

Oh for sure. I'm pretty sure they do it cause it's super metal. And the heralds seem like they are pretty metal.

Well, we do only have 2 stanza's. We probably will get more in SA4, since we have a Singer focus. I'm not sure those two stanza's give any actual information beyond speculation. They were written by a singer. Just because they are old doesn't mean that they had anything other than opinion. We can safely assume two things: 1. The stanzas are important, as they are written into WoR (irl WoR, not in-world) while other things aren't. 2. The singers (I think assuming this was a general consensus among the eventual Listeners at least), had the opinion represented by the stanzas. Line by line: But it is not impossible to blend Their Surges to ours in the end. This indicates that it was at least thought to be possible at some point. It has been promised and it can come. Someone, at some point, told the singers that this was a possibility. The general tone implies that this promise was supplied by a credible source. Or do we understand the sum? We questioned not if they can have us then, But if we dare to have them again. This is the most important line to me. It implies there is fear or trepidation about bonding spren. Beyond that, there is fear that the promise they will eventually bond spren could be a cause for concern rather than celebration.

Side note by the way, I'm pretty sure that the Heralds have to kill their bodies to return to Braize if they don't die during the desolations. I didn't realize they didn't have physical bodies on Braize, but I went through the WoB, and they do not have physical bodies on Braize. They get a new body created out of Honor's investiture whenever they come back. Brandon also refused to say whether they have clothes on or not when they return.

I'm pretty sure the Singers were "forbidden" to bond true spren, not unable. The Eila Stele seems to indicate that. This tradition, and/or direct orders from Honor was the reason it never happened pre-human arrival. Eventually the Singers begin to follow Odium, and at that point it seems unlikely that the organized true spren (who were in communication with Honor), would have wanted to bond the Singers. Now that Honor is dead, the most adventurous of the true spren is investigating whether or not a bond with Singers is bad idea or good idea, since Honor isn't around to tell them it is a bad idea. We know that even the other Reachers think it is a "foolish dream" if we assume that Captain Ico is Timbre's father. That might mean they think it is impossible, or that it is a bad idea. Either way it doesn't seem like the majority want to bond with Singers at the moment. Basically, we have a reason why it didn't happen pre-humans, and post-turnover to Odium. And we have a plausible reason why it is beginning to happen now, but is very rare or unique. What I'm missing is the first desolation, where it was Honor+Singers against Humans+Odium (Maybe, we don't really know how directly Odium was involved. It could have been closer to Humans versus Singers without shards involved directly). If it was Honor+Singers against Humans+Odium, then I don't know why the Singers never bonded during that time as a way to protect themselves.

Says Mr. PrinceGenocide Regarding the whole Tlakav thing; Rosharan human slaves are not black slaves in America. The Parshmen are a lot closer to that IRL example, although they are arguable treated both better and worse. Human slaves are a lot close to Roman slaves, but late Roman slaves. I.E. long after the system of Roman slavery had become corrupt. I wont go full into the actual history, but Roman slaves were slaves until they purchased or were given their freedom, then they were freemen. The children of freemen weren't slaves. In the Roman provinces, and late Roman Italy, however, there wasn't a realistic way for a slave to purchase their freedom, and their children were often kept as slaves. This is much like the Alethi Basically it comes down to the way they were viewed. In the Roman slavery system, you weren't considered less of a person than a freeman. You just had a different set of responsibilities and obligations. You were still less than a citizen, of course, since everyone was less than a Roman Citizen. During the later Roman Empire however, instead of a slave having more respect because they were similar to freemen, the freemen had less respect because they were similar to slaves. Ultimately it may seem like a wash, but there are big differences in how a roman slave and a black slave in the Americas would be treated. Shallan buying their writs is closer to her employing them then her actually buying property. Our modern sensibilities don't see it that way, but as @Karger said, it would be weird for Shallan to think too much like us.

I think this is a possibility. And before @Karger asks, I have finished OB, and I'm pretty sure we don't have a concrete answer by the end of that book. It's worth noting that there is they are only tortured on Braize "once caught." That implies that between being hurt or tortured on Roshar, and being caught and tortured on Braize, there would be some sort of reprieve. If they really were broken by the end, then they might have taken this brief respite instead of torture on Roshar. Also worth noting that Kalak seems to confirm the cowardice idea that the Stormfather brings up during the opening of WoK. He definitely seems afraid of normal combat on Roshar. Ok so there is a WoB on it. Worth mentioning that "essence" is not technically investiture. There is WoB where he describes it (for Scadrial at least) as "super-fuel" for the magics that require normal investiture. So their regenerative powers should be greater than those of a normal radiant. Honestly this kind of swings me back to being confused. We've seen that various healing magics heal most types of pain. So if they have Vin-on-mist power all the time, then pain should only last a second, which kind of invalidates the point I support Knight of Iron on. On Braize the torture could be very different and surpass this regeneration (with Odium involved there isn't really a limit), but on Roshar, any kind of normal agony would be very very temporary. Division might be able to do it, but the surges don't work as well on invested subjects. With the level of super-investiture they should be capable of drawing on, the Heralds should be immune to division.

The fused are, well, fused directly to Odium. And they still have a finite amount of investiture, since we see Chiri-Chiri drain a fused of their voidlight. We don't know enough about the Oathpact to assume that its connection between Honor and the Heralds gave them access to functionally infinite amounts of Honor's investiture. Edit: Actually I'm still unsure where we have seen that the Heralds are actually directly tied to Honor. They obviously are close to him, and are allowed to form the oathpact using some of his investiture, but that's one thing. After the oathpact is set up, however, are they still directly tied to him?

Do we know that the Heralds had infinite access to investiture? Maybe I missed it in the books or a WoB, but it seemed to me they didn't have powers beyond the oathpact (pseudo immortality) and those surges granted by their honorblades. Honor did have full control of the highstorm in those days, and could move it to give radiants or the heralds renewing stormlight, but only with some forethought and planning. If Honor was distracted, or the heralds were in different locations, then that wouldn't work.

Ya, but at least she mourns Sadeas. I think that he might do the same for her, but we don't see that. Makes her slightly better than Sadeas imo. There is something to respect in a person committed to another with that level of loyalty, even if the object of their loyalty is kinda a slime-ball.

I didn't look at the reason, only the statement of fact. Chances are it varies from member to member (some believe its about saving souls, some see it as a way to maintain or grow power), and I'd be willing to believe that it is a power play for Amaram. Partially agreed. We cannot say if all members of the society are performing a power play, or only some. I agree that Amaram, based on your argument, is more in the power camp than the saving souls camp. Those may be one and the same for his mind however, making it hard to judge his true motivation. I think you addressed your view, I was adding a counterpoint I felt Toaster hadn't made. I will note that we aren't entirely in disagreement. That is true. My statement wasn't perfectly clear; he is correct that his manufactured personality of the perfect light eyed general killing a shardbearer is proof of a divine right to rule. That is more effective at supporting the current Vorin system than a Dark-eyes becoming elevated to a lighteyes. I think a part, not the whole, of his decision is based off of this logic, rather than shear desire to obtain the shards (or be seen obtaining the shards). It doesn't have to be one or the other. No disagreement from me. Extrapolating her comments into a general truth is what is what I was commenting on. Which you probably aren't doing yourself. As do I. I think that something that angered her like that is not an indicator of a morally correct character. Sorry that is not what I said. I said his reason for jumping ship with Odium is because finding out the heralds lied shatters the delusion he created. Where he is the paragon returning the vorin church to power. Since the heralds lied, then everything he did was wrong, like throwing that tomato at that evil person's house. When he found out the evil person was a good person, there is no way to repair his image. No one he can remove, or change the fact that he was wrong and now looks bad. So then he takes the first out he can, that again can restore that self delusion. In this case turning to a different group who does look at that old man as evil, thereby lauding him as good and wonderful again. He is not in the wrong, it was the group of people who are wrong. He is still wonderful and honorable and a paragon. Self delusion maintained. Some of the difference is semantics. Namely the first part; he thinks he is a hero, the betrayal of Vorinism shatters that image. Its the not the betrayal, but how the betrayal makes him look. I'm sorry I paraphrased you poorly in that regard. I suppose the point I didn't pick up was the reason for his switch to Odium. I don't think his switch to Odium is based on repairing his self image necessarily. If there wasn't a mystical element here, I'd agree, but there is. Odium literally can take his guilt from him. Which is what he originally claims that Odium has done (he is "beyond guilt") before rationalizing his actions afterword. Even he has a hard time believing that he is wonderful and honorable paragon after he switches sides. I think he demonstrates this when he states that he cannot ever forgive himself after Dalinar extends his hand. His image is shattered in a way that even he cannot repair. Odium offers the peace of oblivion, and he takes it. During his fight with Kaladin he does flop back into saying that he still is behaving honorably, so there support for your idea as well.

I think the Radiant -> Higher Spren -> Lower Spren order conveys the same effect. From a certain view, the source of the investiture in a Higher Spren forming plate for their radiant would be from the higher spren. However, in a different view, the radiant draws stormlight into themselves, passes it to their spren, who uses it to form the plate. The higher spren would act like a translator. Because the Higher Spren and radiant are so close in identity, especially as they swear more ideals, their surges still work. You could think of it like energy conversion in Photosynthesis: Light emits from the radiant -> Higher Spren absorbs it and converts it into chemical energy -> Lower Spren eat the energy and become plate. While we would see a change in the identity of the energy in real life, my understanding of how investiture in the cosmere works would point me at saying the energy would have the same identity at least for some amount of time. Calderis is a lot smarter about this stuff than me though.

That's what I said. I think their desire to return the Classical Strength of the Church can also be assumed to be correct, as it is a general statement. Those generally aren't manipulations from Sanderson as far as I've seen. That doesn't mean it matters greatly in comparison to the heralds part (or just the return of powers) for individual members. I felt this was implicit with or without the WoB, but is another piece of information to trust 100%. We have the Skybreakers, who have the most information by default, as they have Nale in their ranks. We have the Diagram, who have significant knowledge, but lack the first hand accounts of Nale. If Mr. T is telling the truth about Battar approaching them, it seems unlikely that she would share the all of her knowledge. If she has, than the Diagram have more knowledge than the Skybreakers. Last we have the Ghostbloods, who are extremely knowledgeable, and much more cosmere aware than the others, but are nonetheless outsiders on Roshar. They don't have access to a herald. Mraize even admits this, although I could see that being a lie (their desire to obtain Sja-Anat indicates they might be aiming to level the playing field however). The Sons of Honor really don't seem to even be in the running. We may find they are better informed than they seem later, but it doesn't seem likely so far. I think you may be oversimplifying Amaram. You have convinced me that he is certainly a narcissistic, and it drives most of his actions at some level, but I don't think that his love of Alethkar or Vorinism is entirely subsumed by his narcissism. He feels real regret for killing Kaladin's squad, and has to be convinced to do it. He knows that it is not honorable, and knows that he will suffer internally for it. He does it anyway because he thinks it will be better for the world. In that decision is narcissism, certainly. Martyrdom itself is vaguely narcissistic for that matter. He thinks that he can wield the shards more effectively in all senses of the word. He is aware, however, that half the reason that he is doing it is because he knows it looks better, not that it actually is better. The guilt he feels is too close to the surface for a true narcissist. In that sense he is right. It does look better for Alethkar's social system (which he believes is good, for narcissistic reasons or not), for the Light-Eyes to be the hero. It is definitely possible, probably even likely, that the ultimate conclusion you draw is true; his final turn from Honor to Odium and betrayal of Dalinar is based mostly in his failure to be the hero to people. He turns to Odium to escape the knowledge that he has failed to become the savior of Alethkar, and the guilt over the things he did to achieve that goal, rather than the betrayal of Vorinism. I'm in that camp at least. I do think there may have been another path for him. I don't think Jasnah is 100% reliable as a narrator when it comes to Amaram. In general, she is right, and has him pegged for a self-focused phoney. But she clearly hates his guts, and cant see the good intentions that might exist. In essence, we can rely on her opinion if she says something good about him, but negative items might be colored by her personal feelings. She likely has seen some of the worst of him, and therefore isn't likely to be able to see the best (if the best exists. All I'm saying is that it is ambiguous).

The big thing we have to know is whether the Sleepless are finite. Arclo seems to imply that he can breed new hordelings to store memory, and to me that implies he can breed more to supply mental capability. If those are both true, they can grow infinitely. If that happens, then killing them in a conventional sense is impossible for sure. They would have to be very stupid or suicidal to put all of their hordelings into the same location. That doesn't rule out something that attacks their soul or mind. Both of those are weapons that a shard has access to. If you killed the mind of a Sleepless, their cremlings might die all at once, or become normal insects (with high degrees of specialization, causing them to die in nature relatively quickly). Severing their soul would kill them as well, as we see with Shardblades (Shardblades wouldn't do anything except just cut off individual cremlings from the horde, but a more powerful item like Nightblood might hit the greater hidden soul) As for how they get into piles, the other sleepless would probably do that for a fallen comrade. I'm pretty certain that the sleepless are native to the system at least, and probably the planet. The type of crustacean/insectoid life that we have seen on Roshar has yet to be seen on any other visited world. The Saih, on the other hand, could very well be from Ashen or Braize or another system entirely. I would call out that Arclo does claim to Lift that he is "just another refugee." As he is talking to Lift, who isn't a refugee in the smaller sense of refugees from the local war, it probably refers to something else. That could be him stating he a refugee from Aimia, or more broadly a refugee of the planet Roshar (which is what Lift is technically).

We have a distorted view of the Son's of Honor. In terms of sources, we have; Gavilar viewed through the eyes of Eshonai, and the preview of Navani's prologue. Mraize, who is directly in opposition to the SoH. He also doesn't give any information to Shallan that he doesn't want to give to Shallan. And only a couple of items are true. Skybreakers, through the eyes of Mraize. The only information here is that the Skybreakers are also opposed to the SoH, and felt Amaram was important enough in the organization to assassinate. This all may be a slightly false or twisted as Mraize is an unreliable source of information to Shallan. Amaram's actions, and very few active thoughts (the WoR epilogue). His thoughts aren't necessarily reliable as well, as he definitely has a narcissistic streak (whether that drives everything he does is a different matter though). I don't think that we have a crystal clear picture of what they want to do. I think we can trust Mraize's general summary: They want to restart the cycle to return the Heralds and the classical strength of the Vorin Church. Beyond that, we don't know how their members view themselves. Amaram pretty clearly thinks he is a patriot, and seems to support the goal as a vehicle for Alethkar's success. Chances are that is how Restares appealed to him. On the other hand, looking at just Amaram's actions, he is much closer to a zealot than a patriot. He is so devoted to Vorinism that when betrayed by the church he looks for the only succor available in Odium. He doesn't think of Alethkar, just his own shattered faith. Side question, are there any theories about who Restares is out there?

I second @The traveller with the trapped rather than dead aspect. It seems that most lesser spren are actually less than animals in terms of sapience. They seems closer to bacteria, with their only driving force a desire to be near their inspiring characteristic (wind spren seem to be a little different than this). The mandras, which may or may not be luck spren, seem to be entirely mindless. Same with the anticipation spren. They wouldn't really know if they became permanently trapped on the PR in another form. There is some timey-whimey-whibbly-whobbly stuff about transitive property that should be mentioned. If the truespren bonds the lesser spren, but is already bound to the radiant, then the radiant is bonding the lesser spren. The true spren would only be supplying the cognitive intent to form the plate beyond what the radiant is really supplying. Connection is a transitive effect, so the true spren isn't really supplying that. This may seem like a meaningless distinction, and ultimately it is, assuming that the theory is right to begin with, but gives us a better idea of how the Nahel bond works.

I think Amaram's arc was fine. He is well written, and a good villain. And he acted exactly how I would have expected him to act up until the last. OB was pretty bloated, and I think leaving Amaram in the background, but still very important, was a good call. I also am hoping we get some good Shallan in the OB. I really want to see her actually team up with Jasnah, like in early book 2. I also want to see her talk to Adolin, or someone, about her childhood. And actually have a conversation about it. I'm ready for her to move forward a little more than she has. Lift and Lopen are both great. I think anyone who doesn't like them, or at least tolerate them, is taking themselves and a fantasy series with magic crab people way too seriously. I'm just hoping that we don't get an angry, bitter, broken Lift in the back half. I want her to maintain the sort of optimism that she has.

Her Classism is not an active thing. She doesn't think a specific dark-eyes is any less than a light-eyes. However, she doesnt realize that by not combating that mentality as a light-eyes, she is supporting that system. She doesn't blink at her servants being dark-eyed, and would be surprised if they were light-eyed. It's not the worst mentality they have, but it is half the reason why the current social problems exist in Alethkar. I think Shallan eventually could be great in a relationship, and I don't blame her for being young. But she is young as you mention. I disagree that she only engages with her equals. She is getting better at it, as Jasnah tries to get her to be, but isn't there yet. Regarding the respectful part; its not all her. She hides from her problems too much for her to know when a quip isn't appropriate. Mostly she needs to respect herself more. The original her. She claims to know her strengths and weaknesses enough to create personalities to fill the gaps, isn't aware enough to know when those personalities end and she begins. Being confident in yourself is really important in a relationship, and I think Adolin will discover that as he encounters the downsides of an unsure partner. To me its not so much incestuous, but potentially predatory. You have that scene with Shallan stating that a Chaperone who believes everything she tells him makes for an ineffective Chaperone. Kaladin certainly has the role of educator and guardian for Syl, and she by nature is innocent and trusting. For him to take advantage of that would be wrong. She would have to grow more for there to be a relationship I was comfortable. Honestly the relationship between Siri and Suscebron is similar. As his only source of knowledge about the world, it's wrong for her to do anything realistically. The only reason it is ok is that we as the reader know that Siri is sincere in her affection, and not much more worldly that him to begin with. If Syl was to grow, to the level Ivory is, for example, where she is fully realized entity; and they both treat each other as more equal, then it wouldn't be necessarily predatory. Especially since we are privy to their thoughts if we need reassurance that it is a moral relationship.

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I don't think Dalinar can get plate. The whole lesser spren are plate thing is a different thread realistically. But I have a feeling that Dalinar cannot have, or is far beyond plate. I think chances are that the secondary spren are part of the equation with plate, but not the whole answer. Shallan also has plate on Thaylen field in all likelihood. When Jasnah comes to find her, and all but Radiant in plate disappear at a touch, it seems likely that her plate is real and not an illusion. As for the lesser spren; Windspren are 100% Windrunner Gloryspren are 100% Bondsmith Lifespren are 50% Edgedancer I think. They definitely seem to follow Lift around in her Novella. I don't think they are Truthwatcher spren. Creationspren are 100% Lightweaver Logic Spren or Concentration Spren are 50% Elsecaller The spren used for Half Shards are either the primary or secondary spren for the Stonewards (as Mr. T comments on it, and his offhand comments are rarely just that) I'm pretty sure Decay Spren are Dustbringer (I'll give it 25%, since there isn't really any evidence for it in the books so far, but makes a lot of intuitive sense) Awe-spren make sense for Willshapers in a way, but it's a fairly un-intuitive way. Like surprise and awe at the new wonders the Willshapers always find during exploration? Eshonai might attract one in Kholinar during the OB opening, I cant remember. Skybreakers I got nothing on. Truthwatchers I got nothing on. Could be whichever of the two that isn't Elsecaller.

J** J** is an abomination, not a guy. It's not fair to either gender to be compared to him. Similarly, I hate Rose for sure, but putting them in the same paragraph isn't fair. Basically what I'm saying is that the J** J**-less cut of the prequels is significantly better than the theatrical release. I feel like Cal underestimated your power. I'd try it personally. Whats the worst that can happen? Also, this post is super on topic.

I'm not sure PR is the right word there. PR implies spin, manipulation, obfuscation. I'm not going to tell you how to feel, but you may have tricked yourself here. You dislike Shallan because of her character. Therefore when she does something you like, or find impressive, you have the impression that Sanderson is forcing you to like her. In reality, you like her (on this issue, not necessarily in general). This isn't a PR move, this is a change in character for Shallan, or a demonstration of what she could be. I have to tell you; mental illness does not give you a get out of jail free card. I'm not sure how much experience you have dealing with people who have mental illnesses, but the opposite is usually true. You get blamed for more things because you have a mental illness. Attributions of failings that people give to your illness. You aren't hated for these things, but you cannot grow beyond them. It is a horrible thing that society does. You also fundamentally misunderstand how her disorder works. It's not that she is the "real Shallan" only when doing good things. She is always the real Shallan. All of these things are her, and she is responsible in any form for the actions of any other. It's the internal struggle between the various aspects, the decision within herself to decide what she wants, and not to switch or be subsumed that defines her. Sympathy should be extended to those with disadvantaged backgrounds, but it doesn't stretch forever, and doesn't truly excuse actions. A savvy reader or observer is able to quickly determine whether a person's background is be used, or coming to the forefront naturally. As someone mentioned, Renarin is a back five person. He is a side character for the moment. I would be cautious in assuming that Shallan's disorder is anything similar to Renarin's. There will, and are, differences. She hasn't stolen anything from him. What you say could be read as, "People with autism are the same as people with multiple personalities." Having her interact and be reviewed positively by the Kholins isn't a manipulation. I haven't found any interaction between any Kholin and Shallan remotely unreasonable. They are based in the character traits of both. If you feel like any interaction is unearned by Shallan, that's your business, but I don't see any support for it. And the Kholins have been shown very publicly in book two to have not have good judgment on people. The last part I understand; lots of people dont like Shallan, and feel like OB should have had less of her. She should have given more space to Dalinar, or Kaladin, or anyone else. I wish there was less of her. That being said, much of her interaction with Adolin and the other characters made sense. It was logical that Shallan, who has ample experience dealing with expectations and internal demands, helps Adolin be who he wants to be. And ultimately, she just supports his decision; she says that he should do what he wants, that he doesnt have to be his father. But she also says he can be. She has no stake in his choice. I'm not here shilling for Shallan. I am against the sort of close-minded dismissal you presented.

Mostly is a strong word. I think it is more often female characters, because it is a stereotype that women are grating to men. Men often have different negative traits focused on besides "annoying." Regardless, this is a failing of society, not a characteristic of society (something to work on, not to identify as fact). There are male characters I do the same thing with. Bran in ASOIF, and the titular Martian in the Martian (book only, Matt Damon never comes off as grating) are both super annoying at times. Anakin is unwatchably annoying in the Star Wars prequels. The weird kid in the Matrix sequels is similarly annoying. I personally don't find any of the other female characters annoying like Sansa in ASOIF, or annoying like Shallan in Cosmere. Spensa in Skyward is great as a lead (non-cosmere), as is Siri in Warbreaker. Vivenna is also great.