Furamirionind

Ok... well, I suppose you have reason... though perhaps you would prefer a monarchy? As that would technically be the correct political system for what you want... Starting this moment, I am starting up a new contracting business, "LawyersRUs" if you have any questions or would like to contract my services, feel free to PM me. ; ) Would it be possible to restart the government type voting? Partly because certain ones (dictatorship, communism, and I will put Mraizearchy here because people are actually voting for it) should not be options. The three options that should exist at the moment are "democracy - power of the mob", "republic - power of the guilds", and "monarchy - power of a single individual". I personally think having the others up there are misleading. Whatever actual details for the government we use will depend on which of those three wins. I have been working a lot on my idea, but we can only use it if we decide on a republic... so... naturally I will be pushing hard for that... I was trying to set my system up in a way where the representatives would not be the higher ups in a guild. Those people won't have time for politics. Instead the guild should choose who they think will have the best chance of politicking. Alternatively, we could have it so that multiple people from each guild can be a representative, based on how many active players they have. Also remember, you don't have to be a rep to make political impacts. You would be influencing the campaigns and inter guild voting during elections. And in between elections, you can talk to other representatives, bargain, etc. The rep will definitely be doing most of that, but if people in the guilds also do that, it will increase the chances of your guild getting a desirable law passed in their favor. Most importantly, there will be politics inside a guild trying to determine if they want to keep the same rep or try a new one. Convincing your guild to make you the next rep is also a factor in this. (GB, please make me your rep! : ) ... ... ... even though I am new : ) )

Wait, I thought Mraize sides against Mraize...

Who voted for communism? You guys would probably prefer a dictatorship to that... Democracy - rule by the mob - every in world person would get a vote, every NPC technically should as well. All of these people have to vote on everything. (Example of this is Athens) Pros: encourages everyone to be involved in politics. Everyone gets a say. Cons: there is no movement of power. Republic - representatives make decisions - people/guilds elect specific people to make laws. (Examples: USA, Canada, UK, EU, Romans) Pros: lots of power changes. encourages guild politics instead of person politics. Having people voting for other people forces campaigning, speeches, favors given out, etc. Cons: individuals are less involved in the politics unless they are either up for election, or their guild's representative. Monarchy - you have a king/queen. In office. The title moves down to that person's heir after the king/queen dies. Pros: it is simple Cons: litterally no political involvement for players unless you are king/queen or their Heir. The king/queen has absolute authority. So if they wanted to create a law "just because", they could. The only way to remove the current authority from power is a war. That is the only way. Communism - this technically is much more than a political system. This is also an economic system... However as I dont see much of an economy in the alleyverse, we shouldnt pick communism. Purely looking at the political side though, this is what is: Communism (politically only) is when you have 1 party (guild) in control of everything. There are elections, but only to move power around in that single party, not between parties. If we chose this, we would have 1 guild having executive power over everything. This system commonly turns into a dictatorship, as there is SO much power at the top, and none distributed. I don't think I need to list pros and cons for this do I? You can probably see there isnt much of a point on the political side. If we had an economy, the economic system of communism is Socialism, which may be interesting to RP. But we could throw socialism into any political system, we don't need communism for that. Dictatorship - while this is differant in theory from a monarchy, it works basically the same. 100% power in 1 role. No power anywhere else. Has the same pros and cons of monarchy. The biggest differance is that a monarchy can be abused, but a dictatorship is a system with the majority of power in 1 role AND that role is being abused. In my republic proposal, each Great Guild evenly distributes power. This is so we don't get a dictatorships. Mraizearchy - I know this is a joke, but can someone please explain to me what this is? Thanks! Lol.

Hey Ark! I didnt mean to accuse you of being an elim, I was basically just asking for you to post more. I appreciate you posting a couple times this turn, and look forward to seeing more as time goes on. : )

I have had the nickname "lawyer" since I was 12. (Because I was depressing to talk to, but usually correct. Lol) I could be wrong, but Lawyers have really difficult time intensive jobs. (Thats why they make so much money) because of that, I find it unlikely we will find a lawyer in the alleyverse as it also takes a lot of time. @Darth Woodrack I am new, what is the Citadel? I think it would be a good idea for the government to have a police force, and having them be PCs instead of NPCs could allow for some fun RP. The specifics we should discuss though, as you said the police force is a guild of sorts. This guild should then probably be prevented from ever becoming a Great Guild. There will also be many laws in the government regulating said police force, and what those are should probably be discussed sooner rather than later. (These laws would be part of setting the government up, but could be changed later in-world) Also, please remember that the OOC purpose of the government is not to make rules. And the OOC purpose of these rules is not to catch people breaking the law. Both of these things is to incite another layer of diplomatic RP and inter guild conflict. If you want to PM me your draft of laws, I would love to read them. However, if they are not purely part of setting up the government, I would suggest we wait to implement them, and then you should try to convince the Chancellor IC to draft those laws inworld.

I think there are Infinite reasons why each guild should both want to have and want not to have a government, so it would be more up to the people as a collective. The DA sounds like they have a lot of power, this power would be translated diplomatically. And they would be able to work towards their goals with less effort. TUBA would have protection from the DA, and could try to use this as a method to undermine the DA, lowering their power. Even though I am apperantly a GB now, I don't know anything about their goals. Arguements like this can be made for each guild. For the newcomers in this conversation, would you mind providing some context?

Like Voidus said, I think the guide that we have is more of a referance for those who are already in game, rather than a guide for those that are new. Adding a 'newcomer friendly' thread sounds good, a thing that we will probably want to mention in that is a recomended starting power level, regardless of whether or not we implement a points system. That is really the main thing I am getting at with the points thing. (Though I do still think comparing players points is fun, but that is why I play SE I suppose...)

Idk how large your army/police force is, but is this the sort of group that would likely become the official police force of the government? If not, would you be okay with becoming a division of the police force? I don't think the culture would necessarily change. Source: bridge 4. I am thinking that to be official in the time of government (which I for now am assuming is going to happen), you would probably be reporting to them in some sense? This is of course assuming your wish is to be official.

IRL, people often think the other parties are trying to steal people's souls...

I probably don't need to say more, and perhaps my time would be better spent actually flushing out this idea (or sleeping O.o ), but I really want to convince Voidus of this... : ) MetaTerminal, I was just using three guilds for the moment because those are the only ones I knew about. We could expand the number of legislatures to 3 or 4 or so. There technically isn't a limit in my proposal. If there gets to be enough great guilds, we could actually do cool stuff with committees and branches and stuff (not complicated, just requires more people... and probably some experience with this idea). As, in this suggestion, the Great Guilds need the smaller guilds to vote for them to get more power, they will need to grant favors, resources, and law changes out to these smaller guilds. Who can use this to follow their own agenda, or try to become a great guild themselves to become a competitor. We are granting power to the guilds at the top as a reward, but also requiring them to pass pieces of power down to others, to keep their own power. I can't tell if Sorana was saying something along these lines, but regardless it made me think: if we have the government have administrative powers, such as defining what a Great Guild is, that could cause some interesting power struggles, with the Great Guilds trying to hold onto as much power as they can, while still needing to make the smaller guilds happy. (I predict the result will end up being that the more homeless there are total, the higher the restrictions will be. Which means that people would be regulating their own rules within their own world, in character, which could help people think of them less as rules, and more as things to RP around.) The first iteration of this government I expect would be tricky as everyone will probably be asking for everything for themselves, and giving nothing in return. However, if we give it a little time (with modifications happening as we learn what does and doesn't work), the overall power of the great guilds I expect will be balanced by the power of the small ones.

Hello peoples, I know this is an extended turn... But things have gotten pretty quite here... I am going to try to accuse lots of people of being elims now to get people talking again. : P I am just going to talk about the people I want to hear more from at the moment. (Umm, can someone please tell me how to link someone else's post? that would help a lot... Thanks!) @Mark IV: You implied that one of these gut reads was on BR, but you don't state the other. I could be wrong, but generally gut reads are suspicions without evidence. So I don't know what you are trying to say. What if everyone didn't vote because they were unsure? We would never have a D1 lynch. Maybe you just don't like D1 lynches either? I feel like Snipexe's second lynch was a bit weird too. after people were discussing for a bit, we weren't going to lynch him until Mark popped up and said Snip was in the warrior doc. There was no vote or anything. Just enough of a post to ensure Snip got lynched. Nothing more, nothing less. @Ookla the Unprepared: I have vouched for Bard several times so far this game, but I really don't think I have any reason to. Out of the 2 game significant posts Bard has done, both were gut reads on BR. In his second post, he goes says that he also suspects HH because HH was targeting me, and he trusts me. However, no reason was specified for why I am to be considered trusted. Perhaps this is another gut-read, but if so, this goes against what he said about me after LG50. This could have been purely an attempt to make me trust him meta-wise, but if so, that backfired. @Rathmaskal: I don't know... People have been saying they suspect Rath for a while, and I would of course love to hear more from them... I admit, I am probably slightly biased toward Rath being village purely because of this line. I love picking at people's words, which people may have been able to tell from my post on MrDoctor. I assume you mean being efficient IRL. As I would 100% agree that in most of your posts, there hasn't been a ton of content. The thing is, there are many people who have had significantly less content, so targeting Rath on this I don't think is the best reason. Congratulations! You get a medal! The posts to me sound like a villager talking. It is just a gut feeling, but that is what I am thinking... @Sart: Sart mentioned this is finals week for them, but hopefully that means that they will have time within the next few days. This is the quote that gets me. It seems to me to be trying to distance Sart from the role of Padan Fain, while saying to go after the inactives. What we should not forget, was that the role Sart picked up, was inactive until this post. "I noticed the bandwagon", then, "I disagree with calling this vote a bandwagon. For most of the cycle, it was very closely tied, with a large spread of votes. It's only late into the cycle that it tipped so drastically". Not only is this a slight contradiction, but the fact that the bandwagon happened late in the cycle, does not mean it isn't a band wagon. It is just a bandwagon that happened late in the cycle. If Sart is an elim, I might suspect at least one other person who joined in this bandwagon. That would be: Randuir, Karn, CadCom, Amanuensis, Drought, Ark, Mr Doctor. However, and I am going out on a limb here, the part "It's only late into the cycle that it tipped so drastically", could mean that the (potential) elim in this group voted early on in the cycle. If so, that would narrow it down to: Randuir, Amanuensis, Drought, or possibly CadCom. I crossed out Drought as I don't think an elim would accuse another elim of pocketing a villager. This would be risky, and raise the guard of the villager in question towards that person. This is a very possible attempt to make me tunnel on Drought. Wow, going into this, I didn't find Sart that suspicious at all, but as of writing this, I am thinking more and more he may be one. CadCom: I want to hear more, but I still feel bad for calling for a post from them after they already posted... : / I will analyse them later, as I have been working on this for ~1.5 hours at this point. @Ookla of the East: This may just me me, but I don't understand your first quote saying that you trust MrDoctor. You say that they were trying to gather suspicion of Karn? That doesn't read like a village thing to me. Perhaps you wish to rephrase? You picked at the post that was weaker, but I had already posted again to support the first one. I actually thought I may be lynched when I went offline, and you hadn't talked about my reasons at all, just the conclusion. However, I grudgingly admit that I think this sounds more like a rushed villager post than an elim one. I still have my eye on you... @Droughtbringer: ... Must I really say more? : P I really want to hear more from Drought, but Sart going after them makes me less suspicious of them for now. I like jokes! : ) ... Though I did try to use it as a cover for being an elim last game... : | I personally don't think I can comment on this. As I know I am a villager, I understand my reasons for doing what I do, and I see why people's accusations against me are flawed. This post seems to be understanding what I did and why I did it. I want to say I trust Drought more because of it, but I honestly can't, as I am too paranoid of people who are protecting me. @Ookla the Ring, what do you think? I think either Drought or Sart is an elim, though I doubt both are. @Ark1002: I can understand forgetting about this at the moment, but if you do some analysis sooner rather than later, then you don't have to worry about forgetting about it. : ) I honestly don't know what to think about Ark. Post 1: Intro post Post 2: Said he didn't read D1 Post 3: Pokevote Post 4: has been inactive due to forgetting about this. Ark, we really just need something from you to confirm you aren't an elim. Thanks! @BrightnessRadiant: Saw you lurking in-thread a little earlier and got my hopes up that I would be ninja'd. Alas, twas not to be. I know you are busy, perhaps another couple sentences about your current thoughts? You say you are suspicious of me? Here is another analysis post of mine for you to look through. My thoughts on BR are basically the same. I am tired now, so I am not going to reread her posts and really try to analyse her yet, I will do her and CadCom later. However I still have a gut-elim feel about her.

I don't understand you all. lol

Here is unfortunately another area were we must disagree on principal. You only notice new people who join your community. No one here can notice the ones that do not. For example, did you know I have been following this sub-forum for almost 6 months now? The best way to get new members is to make it easy to join. However, we have 2 different opinions as to what "easy" is. Here is mine: Here is what I believe yours is: Am I on the right track, or am I interpreting your posts wrong? Here is the thing, when I was creating a character, I was going to make just a normal person, who over the course of me RPing, was going to bond an Honor Spren, and progress through the stages of radiant-ness. However, when I looked at other characters, I saw tons of compounders, radiants 4th ideal, etc. And I didn't know what to do. I ended up making a zinc coupounder, windrunner 1st ideal (i think). However, I gave myself a massive weakness of prohibiting my character from being in just about any combat situation at all. You may say that this is totally fine, but from my perspective, it made it difficult to RP. There are wars happening, fights, arguments... And I have basically told my charecter to stay out of them all... I just didn't know what to do. To summarize, I was overwhelmed by the endless possibilities I had before me, and made some poor decisions because of it. What I think we should do, is try a points system. And try to keep an open mind about it. Players like you who have been doing this for a while may not need to worry about it too much. Perhaps we could even pull some people over from the "new user" sub-forum and ask them to help us design it/analyse it to make sure it makes sense to them. We can ask them if they would rather have a guide, or nothing. I think that will give us a much better idea, and as I did create a character 5ish months ago, people might listen to them more than me. I would like to point out I have experience IRL designing systems to involve and keep new people who may be interested. It is very possible that I am wrong on this case, but I stand by my reasoning for it.

That's why I suggested a republic with a variable-party system. (current parties being the DA, TUBA and GB) Those 3 parties would then not be on equal footing. And the fact of there being an odd number at the moment will force tiebreakers even if they were on an equal footing. I would suggest if we go for a republic, (which is what I think most people voting for "democracy" actually want), that we have 1 Chancellor and 2 Legislatures. The way I see voting working is all three major guilds nominate 1 person for office to represent them. Each minor guild is then allowed to cast a vote for one of those representatives. The person with the most becomes Chancellor. And the other 2 become legislatures. Off the top of my head, how I would imagine the government working is the Chancellor can create laws with some advice from the Legislatures, then every so often they vote on some of those. With each vote counting as 1 vote, between 3 voters, there will always be a tie breaker. The trick will be for the DA and TUBA to agree on something so that GB doesn't always get what they want. This honestly sounds like a TON of fun to me. If you still don't think that would work, I can flesh out the idea more over the next couple days and repost it then. As this is all just off the top of my head, and tuning, tweaking, and brainstorming will all be needed to implement a new system. That is partly why I am saying votes should be per guild. Either per sharder, or per character should work then. It also encourages more guild centered plots and ideas, which I am all for!!

I disagree about the making things worse part, but you make a good case for it not really changing anything.

I was not stating how things are, but an alternative idea for how things could be.

I agree that MTG charecters would not work well in this setting. Many of the powers arn't that far off of what the shards can do... so in a sense, if we wanted a planeswalker in the game, just give them their own singularity. (Waaaiiiit, we should ask Brandon how much investiture is required to form a singularity... has someone asked that?)

Does this mean we can kill members of equal rank to us? : )

What would people think of having differant charecters with differant primary guilds? I admit, I am very much confused by the lack of distinction between an RPers guild, and an RP guild... so that i suppose is relevant. For instance, it doesn't make sense for Guilds to ask for the RPers allegiance if they have 2 charecters in differant guilds... if that would be the case, the RPer would have 50% allegiance to each guild, which would promote spilling guild secrets between charecters... etc. I think this can be fixed purely by differentiating a RP charecter from an RPer. The RPer has no guild. The charecter does. While "being" a character, the RPer then has a guild allegiance. (The allegiance being to which ever guild(s) the charecter is in). I expect some people won't like this idea, as there are many people who don't want change. However, this isnt changing anything. Other than people's mindsets I suppose. This only makes the RPing less confusing in my opinion.

It was a single example, I was not saying gold was the only one. I don't think there should be a limit, but I will volunteer to create a points system and post it so no one else has to do the work. (I may need to talk to others and brainstorm though) Again, this should purely be an analysis tool so that we can objectively understand how powerful our charecters are. I have seen several arguements over how "so and so is basically god-like and too strong" or something like that. This would eliminate ALL of that.

I like the concept of a points system, if for no other reason than being able to objectively OOC analyse how powerful your charecter is compared to others. (Especially useful for making new charecters, though not a hard limit of how many point to use) However, I think that creating this is a big task as compounding Zinc, is significantly less dangerous than compounding Gold, so point values may need to be customized for each possibility. (Or someone could make some sort of algorithm, though I would need to brainstorm how that would work)

I just want to make sure everyone knows, a democracy is where each individual gets a vote on every topic and decision. This is the form of government used in Greece. A republic is where people vote for others to make decisions for them. I know some of you already know this, but I was surprised that republic hasn't gotten a single vote. Personally, I think it would be interesting if we treated guilds like modern parties. The great guilds could each nominate someone to run for office, and you could have the other guilds vote on which guilds rep they think will represent them best. The person with most votes gets the office, and perhaps the others become a council to advise, and have minor decision making powers to prevent it from. Becoming a dictatorship. I love (not irl) politics, so this is an AMAZING concept from my perspective!!!

Ok then... Sorry Xino, it sucks to die that way...

I will neither confirm nor deny whether or not Mat has contacted me... However, the fact that I said what I did publicly, and not in a PM, should mean something to you... We know there at least 6 people who defended D3. The elims know the actions of themselves, which will be 3-5 players, which narrows down who could be defending. Factoring in roles that wont be/shouldn't be defending (i.e. Rand/Moiraine) that narrows down how many people should be defending. Factoring in a couple inactive players, everything can be significantly narrowed down. The elims don't need to find Rand right away, it would be better for them to just figure out who the roleless are, and target everyone else. Remember at least 6 people protected last turn. At least 6. It could have been 11 for all we know. You are right, just because they may have been able to manipulate a vote, does not inherently mean they have caught a special role. However, it would be significantly more likely. Do not discount the info they gain from purely knowing that someone did or did not protect on a given night. I am not saying that we shouldn't discuss this, just that in public, I think the elims will get MUCH more benifit out of this discussion than the village. And as Steel said, things are already looking dire for us. Hence why Mat should contact you.

This ring tells the elims who is defending. THAT is what I am concerned about. If they sucsessfully negate someone's vote during the day, that means they aren't defending. That means that they either wanted the ring to fall, or they had a better action to take. Hopefully Moiraine tried to manipulate someones vote as it tells them the same thing... But for several roles, I would rather they go unidentified by both village and elims, Rather than identified by both. I once again disagree about the priority of knowlege of this lynch. No matter what, the elims had no reason to try and target this group, so it would be foolish to do so. They did have reason to target Meta or HH, which js why I was curious about them. But no matter what, HH will say his vote was removed, because otherwise he would be putting a target on his head for an elim. What good does it do to the village to know who got their votes removed? Anyone who didnt protect becomes a target for the elims, and we no longer have Perrin! I want to point out, that what I said about myself is, I believe, different. I pointed out I wanted the ring to fall. This doesn't tell the elims anything about me. Anyway, can we please move away from talking about votes? With the combination of ring 2, and all the lack of potential info to be gained by the village as a whole, and all the potential info being to be gained by the elims, this is a very dangerous conversation to be having. Mat, hopefully you have reached out to Karn by now... You have? Cool, thanks! : ) (Obviously don't respond to that comment, just pointing out Karn should be reached out to.)