Kingsdaughter613

I found a WoB talking about the pronunciations years ago, and just started using them. At this point I don’t even hear it as E-lan-tris in my head anymore, even though I used to call it that. Now it’s always Ee-lane-tris. The only one I still think of with my original pronunciation is Kelsier, which has a lot to do with the difficulty in pronouncing it properly. It a very French sounding name, and I don’t speak French... Amusingly Brandon, by his own admission, mispronounces it too - despite being the one who created the name! The Rosharan ones were easy; I know enough Hebrew that I recognized the linguistic root and always pronounced them correctly. Most people really can’t pronounce Kholin correctly unless they have a background in one of the languages that uses gutturals, much like the word Khazad in Tolkien’s legendarium. So I didn’t just pull Ee-lane-tris out of a hat! That actually is how it is supposed to be pronounced. Every Aon (Ay-Own) has a double vowel. (It’s why it should be obvious that Ati/Ruin and Aon Ati are simply a coincidence; the former is Ah-tee and the latter is Ay-Tie. They only seem the same when written in English; if you heard them they’d be completely different.)

It’s pronounced Ray- Oh - den. Elantris is Ee- lane- tris. Sarene is Sar- Ee-nee. Aonic (Ay-Oh-nick) has a hard double vowel in every word/letter. I suspect that knowing the proper pronunciation is interfering with my reading of the Elantris/gods line pair. Otherwise I like it. (Scadrial is worse. Kell’s name ends with an ‘ay’ sound and Vin is Vah. Since I use those pronunciations in my head, but most people don’t, it causes issues when reading rhyming poems set on Scadrial.)

There is a very old WoB that indicates that you might be able to create a feruchemist. And another that he dodged about the first feruchemist. I think something happened to make the first feruchemists. I think Kell replicated it. Allomancy is natural to all Scadrians. Feruchemy is not confirmed to be the same. There is also this WoB I just discovered (see below). I think the implication is surprisingly clear. Whether or not it’s Kell is another story. (And natural Fullborns are theoretically possible! Fun facts!) I KNEW I had seen proof that the original Feruchemists were created! Found it:

The thirty years is misleading. The average life span was skewed by the numerous deaths in infancy and childbirth. Eliminate everyone who died in the first three years of life and the number goes up by several decades. If you survived childhood, (and weren’t female) you would have a good chance of living to your fifties/sixties or longer. If you were female, you’d also have to survive your childbearing years - that’s why the female life span was lower than the male one for so long. Child birth is dangerous! (Go thank your Mom now.) There are families where nearly all members have lived to be over 100 in excellent health. Scientists have been attempting to do research on these individuals to figure out why this is the case. (It doesn’t seem to have that much to do with lifestyle, interestingly. Many smoked, drank, worked long hours in the sun and didn’t eat the healthiest food.)

Unless he figured out how the first feruchemists were created and replicated the process...

I wouldn’t be surprised if it did work a bit like Matt’s ‘luck.’ It’s worth noting that Matt didn’t always find it lucky! Like the time his attempts to avoid battle somehow lead him to the heart of it - exactly where he needed to be. So a trick shot might work - or you end up accidentally killing your friend who, it turns out, was actually going to sell you out... or it kills the local lord, who was a horrible person, but now you’re wanted for murder and need to run... or you miss, but that turns out to be the best thing to happen... I always liked how Matt’s ‘luck’ wasn’t exactly what one would consider ‘lucky.’

There has been no secondary corroboration. If there is such a word of Brandon I would believe it; he just RAFO’s when he wants us to question; he doesn’t directly lie when he answers questions (he has answered incorrectly, changed his mind later, and given intentionally misleading responsa, but he doesn’t lie). You asked about Kell being responsible for current Southern society; I explained that that is objectively true; confirmation would not alter that. It’s the specificities that we lack information on. Allik was fudging to make himself look better in front of the girl he liked (‘a deckhand was tossed off the Brunstel for poor dancing’... no mention of this being him!) And he’s not a historian. Why should I trust his historical perspective more than Marasi’s?

You apparently missed where I said that Kell is a genocidal psychopath... I would be interested in seeing such a WOB, if it exists. I did misunderstand; I know Kell is responsible for Southern Society, but I think Allik’s accuracy to be equal to Marasi when she talks about Vin. History is subjective; I wouldn’t entirely trust someone who actually lived through the time period! That’s why I want another person to explain the same things and see how it differs. It’s not that I don’t believe Kell is capable of enacting those policies, nor that he wouldn’t. What I’m uncertain of is whether or not he did. And I do find it unlikely that he would insist Allomancers be given new titles every time; not because I think he’s above that, but because he never seemed to care before. For the same reason, I doubt he randomly killed everyone who bothered him; again, it doesn’t match with the behaviors we’ve seen - he’s always had an understandable (if questionable) reason for killing before. I’m certain he did kill some people though, and not all for cause either! Personally, I wouldn’t be surprised if the title thing came from Kell getting fed up at all the Southerners butchering his name; they seem to have a Germanic sounding language, and Kell’s name is very French. THAT is the sort of thing he’d do - and possibly threaten to (mostly jokingly) put a coin through the head of the next person to get it wrong. They took him seriously and, because he’s Kelsier, he never bothers to correct them. (Regarding pronunciation: Kel - see - ay. But it’s probably closer to ‘denier’ in how you string the syllables together, with middle kind of swallowed. It would be very hard for a civilization that has only heard German to pronounce.)

No, it’s obvious that Kell is the cause of the current society in the South. That doesn’t make Allik any more accurate about how those things occurred, than Marasi is about the Ascendant Warrior’s personality. I’d need confirmation that his exact statements are accurate which, considering that he was fudging when asked if the Sovereign was the Lord Ruler, I find unlikely. Brandon LIKES to trick us by having characters give us the wrong info due to some knowledge gap on their part. Unless you are a historian you are probably going to get a lot wrong. Just see how many Americans think the Civil War ended slavery. (It didn’t; that was the 13th amendment.) It’s accurate to say that the Civil War directly lead to the Constitutional amendment that actually ended slavery, but the Civil War itself did not. So the issue is what beliefs already existed, how those were incorporated into the changes Kell made and the knowledge he brought, what changes Kell actually made, and which were a result of his actions but that he was not directly responsible for. That Southern society as it now exists - or the fact that it exists at all - is due to Kelsier’s actions is not really in question. The question is how much of his history does Allik know, or is he simply repeating what ‘everyone knows.’

Oh, I misunderstood. Secondary corroboration, or WoB confirming his knowledge of these things. Considering that even Khriss, who is an actual researcher, can’t be trusted to get it right all the time (though she falls into the ‘assume she’s accurate until new information shows’ category) I’m certainly not going to trust the unsubstantiated opinion of average Joe Allik. It wouldn’t be the first time Brandon has fooled us by allowing characters to give us wrong info. Or for characters to misunderstand or misrepresent what they know. We don’t even get Allik’s viewpoint! So, I’m not willing to assume until I know we aren’t being mislead. That that entire sequence was intended to mislead the characters (not necessarily for the readers; that was the point at which it became obvious who the Sovereign was for me) which makes it even more suspect. Brandon has been very cagey about the Southern culture; I doubt we know as much as we are lead to believe.

Because Allik seems rather confused or vague about some things, and he doesn’t strike me as the greatest history student? He’s also only one person, and the only other member of the Malwish we really speak with acts very differently. Not to mention that he was clearly fudging in some places, agreeing to statements instead of admitting he didn’t know, and wanted to impress Marasi? And he clearly knows next to nothing of the other Peoples. I think Southern beliefs regarding the Sovereign share similarities with our King Arthur mythos; I don’t think Kell’s actions are related at all, anymore than they are related to the Survivorists Christian-like beliefs. If you look at RL, as the beliefs of the culture adapt to new beliefs and knowledge it is filtered through the lens of the old. We need to know what the South believed before Kell showed up to understand how they have come to believe what they do now. Another thing to consider: How often do things get attributed to the wrong people? Or someone important puts a new spin on an old thought and suddenly it’s ‘radical’ and ‘profound’? Allik does not strike me as the sort to check primary sources. He seems more like your average Joe, who knows what ‘everyone knows’ which may or may not actually be accurate. I like mythology. Do you know how many Christian saints used to be pagan deities? St. Nicholas’ attributed stories can be half a dozen different ones. This is how beliefs change. And the ‘wise, foereign leader’ is certainly an archetype. So I’m not ready to jump to ‘Kell did this; Kell said that’ without more than the word of one average Joe. I’m not saying your wrong; I’m saying I need more info. I mean, would you trust Wayne’s knowledge of the Final Empire? What about Wax? Marasi? They’ve all shown significant gaps - even MeLaan, who was actually there! Honestly, I’d trust Steris above all of them - I know she’d do the research first!

You mean ‘we crazy sharders know.’ The average reader has never heard of Bavadin, much less her avatars.

My wish list: Lost Metal Azlatian Nightblood Bastille vs the Evil Librarians Silverlight novella Stormlight 4 (Rhythm of War?) Second Elantris trilogy Starsight (Btw, what really pushed back TLM was Apocalypse Guard not working. That’s why Skyward was written instead.)

And I don’t consider Allik a trustworthy source. Not to mention, we only know a little about the Malwish and even less about the other Peoples. It’s too early, and we know too little, to assume. However, if RL is any guide, old beliefs are subsumed into new ones. So anything Kell told them would be merged with the pre-existing culture and belief system. That’s why I’m wary of saying that he’s directly responsible for anything; he left 200+ years ago, they have 1000 years of beliefs and traditions we know nothing of, and we don’t know anything at all about the other peoples in the south. Determining who is responsible for what is going to take more info. Lost Metal hurry up! (I want it more than Stormlight! More than the Azlatian!) He didn’t have to teach them that he was the most powerful btw; that was kind of obvious. A handful of weak allomancers (if that!) vs a powerful Fullborn? And I'm definitely getting King Arthur vibes. The whole leaving and returning... also the revelation of new beliefs, as Arthur’s story involves the transition from paganism to Christianity in England. Which could give us some hints as well... (Note to self: reread La Morte D’Arthur...)

I disagree. There were metalborn before Kell showed up; they just didn’t understand what caused them. Imagine: warrior experiences a severe, traumatic event, and returns home with inexplicable abilities. Obviously he must be a minor deity, or the child of one... think about how RL mythologies are formed. At least some things - Herr and Frau; the Jaggermeister - likely existed prior to Kell’s appearance. In addition, the feeling I got was that the Sovereign was more akin to a King Arthur type figure than a deity. Head of state vs. God figure. There are a LOT of KA parallels and I don’t think it’s accidental. (Leaving, but being said to return one day. Loyal priests vs knights.) That’s a pretty big difference. He also chose to leave, which I think is important. As for the crew being nervous - other, very similar looking people who are immune to cold, just tortured them. I’d be nervous too; how do I know these ones are really different?

@Turin Turambar I love your name! You... don’t have any missing sisters right? And be wary of that talking sword. And while building bridges sounds awesome, do exercise caution - there may be dragons... (The Lay of The Children of Hurin is one of my fave Tolkien works!)

To be fair, I suspect much of that predated Kell’s appearance. Also, Allik does not seem typical of his people; the Captain doesn’t seem to care much about Wax’s metalborn status! The different peoples seem to look at things rather differently; we just don’t know enough to say. I do think Kell did start seeing nobles as people thanks to Vin; I never said I thought he was perfect at it - or even good! I did get the feeling he wanted to save as many Scadrians as possible, though that might have been simple calculation on his part. But it is a step in the right direction... Psychopaths cannot be what most of the world would perceive as objectively good; that requires selflessness, which they are not capable of. What they ARE capable of is choosing to do things perceived as good, often because they view it as beneficial to themselves/people they care about. It’s rather interesting, actually. (It’s not the same as narcissism; narcissists can’t make that sort of choice because whatever they decide is good, because they are good and incapable of doing anything bad - YOU are a horrible person if you think they could be doing something bad. Psychopaths do know the difference between good and bad; they just don’t feel it applies to them.)

I think you misunderstood. I was saying that if I thought like Kell I’d be killing every German who was an adult during the Holocaust as they all contributed to my people’s persecution either by action or inaction. I don’t think like Kell, and realize that reality is more complicated. Putting that aside though, the Nobles and Skaa (and probably the Southerners) were compatible species with common ancestry. Not ethnic groups - species. They were altered on a genetic level. Kell was essentially a liger, to use a terrestrial hybrid. Enough hybrids give us a third (fourth?) species, just like cross breeding dogs can give us a new breed. He wanted to eradicate the nobles as a people, which is genocide. Vin got him to start seeing them as people, at which point he began to change his perspective. By SH he wants to save all Scadrians. Kell isn’t a good person but he wants to be.

@Calderis You’re welcome! Personally, I feel we are defined by the choices we make, not the way we are born. Recognizing our flaws and seeking to mitigate them; channeling our strengths into constructive ends; and understanding the great truth that our greatest strengths, all too often, are our greatest weaknesses, these are all the things that that determine what kind of person we are. I think the biggest issue with psychopathy is first, that it is only recently that psychopathy has been understood to occur in non-criminal individuals; second, that most studies are done on criminal psychopaths; third, that the misunderstanding of the term means that few non-criminal psychopaths would be willing to involve themselves in such an experiment- or even to acknowledge the possibility that they might be one! I really wish there was more recognition and more studies of non-criminal psychopaths... Kell isn’t, technically, a psychopath but he has many traits and comes fairly close (2/3 point off of the European one; further away on the US one.) I’m pretty sure Batman comes nearly as close, if not closer (B has never been in a long term, steady, monogamous relationship.) I actually find the Batman comics to be a very clear example of ‘writers don’t understand what a psychopath is.’ B, as stated above, probably is one but, despite Bruce himself alluding to it, this has never been stated. Jason and Damian are often called such, but neither is. (Damian probably has HFA; he’s almost definitely on the spectrum. Jason is a traumatized mess, who probably has a mix of mild to moderate BPD, RAD, and atypical MDD with psychotic features. He’s also splitting, which is whole ‘nother issue.) The Joker depends on which one we are talking about since there are three now; GA Joker is a psychopath - which pairs really well with B being afraid he’ll become what he fights. Classic Joker is psychotic (disordered schizophrenia), probably comorbid with Bipolar disorder. (I don’t think he’s schizoaffective, though he’d probably be diagnosed as such.) KJ Joker is also psychotic - straight up severed himself from reality. The last is not a psychopath, and we don’t know enough about Classic to say if he is or isn’t. So we have three people who are not psychopaths being referred to as such, a fourth that gets the title despite knowing too little to say (though if White Knight is the Classic Joker, then he isn’t), a person who is (probably) - but no one will ever call him that! and one criminal psychopath (whom we will finally get to see again after vanishing for decades...) who actually is one! If this isn’t a perfect example of how badly misunderstood the term is, and how most people use it inaccurately, I don’t know what is. Especially the part where other mental health issues are confused for psychopathy. And the one who doesn’t kill is presumed not to be one - even though he almost certainly is. (He has to control everything, trusts almost no one, manipulates and lies to even his closest family and friends, has trouble admitting to personal guilt - and even when acknowledging fault transfers it to another (ie. if Jason had been better trained/less reckless he wouldn’t have died instead of ‘if I hadn’t trained a twelve year old to fight crime he wouldn’t have been murdered at fifteen.’), feels little to no remorse for any of the above, hurts people as a form of emotional release, enjoys hurting said people, and thinks he’s above the law. He’s practically a textbook case...) (Do I spend WAY too much time psychoanalyzing the BatFamily? Yes. Yes, I do.)

Psychopaths/sociopaths are born that way. Many may actually live perfectly normal lives. It’s only the criminal ones we hear about. To put this in perspective for everyone arguing about this: I’m a grandchild of Holocaust survivors. If I thought like Kell, the appropriate response to dealing with the Nazis would be to wipe Germany off the face of the Earth. Somehow I think most people would agree that wiping out all Germans, not just the ones actually responsible for the Holocaust, is not the best method? Kell wanted to wipe the nobles from the face of Scadrial. Understandable, yes, but that wasn’t right. Just because someone else does something horrible doesn’t mean you should respond in kind. And the people living in Nazi Germany didn’t have 1000 years of society telling them that this is normal. Nor did they have an immortal ruler that they thought was a god. Scadrial’s nobles had far better excuses than Germans under Hitler. Why do I get the feeling that those who feel that ‘all the nobles were equally guilty and deserved to die and Kell was not wrong for killing them’ would have a rather different opinion of ‘all Germans above 18 are equally guilty (unless actively or passively resisting) and deserve to die and it is not wrong for their victims (or families thereof) to kill them?’ [The last is intended ironically. I am not advocating killing everyone who was 18+ during Nazi Germany.] Just to end: in Poland, the Nazis would kill the entire family if anyone was harboring a Jew and anyone they though might know about it. Everywhere else it was just the individual(s) who did so. Despite this, the largest number Righteous Gentiles was in Poland. Conversely, they also had the highest rates of reporting. The Nazis also killed 500 Poles for every German killed. Poland had a rebellion going on from the day it was attacked despite this. If there is a real world analogy to the Final Empire, Poland under the Nazis is probably it. How people reacted in both countries (Germany and Poland) in that situation is a fairly strong hint as to how the various groups in the Final Empire thought.

The colors as depicted would act as camouflage, allowing the chasm fiend to blend into its surroundings.

I’m with you - I am so desperate for the book... or any book... I’m not picky...

Ah. I didn’t realize; I guess someone necroed this thread... Not the longest one - someone on Cosmere theories resurrected a four year old thread by quoting a five year old post.. this one was about 3.5 years dead...

Vin spooked out on Hoid because of Kell, actually. Otherwise, I believe you are correct.

My guess is: Ingenuity Hope Sorrow/Grief Majesty (Though this could be Dominion) Mercy/Absolution Vengeance (Though this is probably Odium...) Eternity (This might be Preservation) Power/Might