Toaster Retribution

Wait until you get to the part where Kaladin is made into a pizza and eaten by Shallan... Seriously though, take care. There are more spoilers here than there are slaves in Sadeas’s army.

I can also dicuss this for ages. My opinion is as follows: The prequels have a ton of good stuff. The concept is great, but the execution often messy. Anakin Skywalkers fall is a brilliant idea, but hurt by sloppy writing. Warcraft 3 did that story, but a LOT better. The love story is as boring as being an aluminum misting, and some parts of the trilogy are just plain bad. However, they also have great stuff. Ewan McGregors Obi-Wan is one of the best characters in Star Wars. Palpatine and the Jedi Order are great. Jango Fett is what Boba Fett should have been. Grievous, Dooku and Maul are all cool, if underused, villains. And it really develops the Star Wars lore. I think that it would come off as worse without Clone Wars, which really does great things for the era (the villains are given more depth, cool characters are introduced/expanded, the clones get personality, and Anakin is what he should have been in the movies). I do find it interesting that just a couple of years ago, everyone hated the prequels. Then came TLJ, and they got popular overnight. Their fans often criticise TLJ for the same reasons as fans criticized the prequels years ago. It is too silly. It doesn’t feel like Star Wars. It mishandles iconic characters, and introduces new pointless ones. It is badly written. It wastes its villains. At the end of the day, I love Star Wars. I love all three eras, and basically all the movies (I’m eh on Phantom Menace, but I dont hate it). And I think that a lot of Star Wars fans are stuck in a nostalgia-loop, when they want the things they saw when they grew up, and gets mad when the property is taken in another direction. After all, if you look at it objectively, all three Star Wars trilogies kind of have the same issues, and also the same strenghts, and they all manages to tell inspiring stories for new generations, who then unfortunately grow up to hate everything that is different from the Star Wars they saw as kids. I do wish that the SW-fandom would stop being such a toxic mess, which it kind of is. The fans, particularly the Fandom Menace, who spend their time with personal attacks against Rian Johnson/Kennedy/JJ, and attempts to discredit everything Disney does (Geeks + Gamers, I’m looking at you) are just contributing toward a hateful discussion climate. The same goes for the other end of the spectrum, who hates everyone who doesnt like Disney Star Wars. One random guy on the internet many years ago said it best: ”No one hates Star Wars as much as Star Wars fans.” It is kinda true. Sorry for the rant.

I think Roshone will have a low-key redemption arc, that will make us like him.

My choices: Amaram - Interesting and tragic. Also has a cool name. Nale - Love justice-obsessed characters. Dalinar - His arc in OB is pure greatness, and I love him. Pattern - Funniest character in the Cosmere. Mraize - Part mob boss, part warrior, part spy, part adventurer... and mysterious to boot. Taln - Because its Taln. Rysn - Her exploration is interesting, and the grass, the larkin, and her disability make her a quite unique character. Axies - Obviously.

Presumably because the refugees would die in droves if this was attempted. The Fused (or Odium) doesnt appear that interested in randomly murdering unimportant humans. If KRs show up however, they will attack. And so, the refugees who walk away on their own are left alone, but the ones who Windrunners would attempt to save would be attacked along with the WRs, which, presumably, would lead to a lot of death. He also has chulls. Chulls are cool.

I think Lirin is going to play a major role in Kaladins arc in this book. He has been on the back-burner since WoR, but Brandon keeps on reminding us about his idealistic disagreement with Kaladin. Seeing as how they are at the same place when the book starts, it wouldn’t at all surprise me to see quite a lot of Lirin in this. Viewpoints wouldn’t surprise me either. It would be an excellent way to contrast Kaladin with someone else. I do think this book will be the last we see of Lirin though. He is probably number one on my death list for this book.

I think Lirin is going to play a major role in Kaladins arc in this book. He has been on the back-burner since WoR, but Brandon keeps on reminding us about his idealistic disagreement with Kaladin. Seeing as how they are at the same place when the book starts, it wouldn’t at all surprise me to see quite a lot of Lirin in this. Viewpoints wouldn’t surprise me either. It would be an excellent way to contrast Kaladin with someone else. I do think this book will be the last we see of Lirin though. He is probably number one on my death list for this book.

I’m just happy we finally have a name for him. I can stop referring to him as Herdazian Houdini. I have been in the camp that says he is a KR for a while now. However, I wonder how long he has been one. The soldiers seem to be quite used to his shenanigans, so either he isn’t using surges to free himself from the manacles, or he has been a KR for a looooong time. Also, eye color isn’t reliable at this stage. It hasn’t gone through continuity. Furthermore, @Wintersu, I would recommend that you put a spoiler warning for SA4 in the title. There are folks who wants to head into the book knowing nothing.

Brandon just forgot changing SA4 to SA5.

Why wouldn’t we?

Not to be that guy, but he met Szeth... And no, I doubt it was Shardic influence. Jezrien was a street beggar, and Kholinar is one of Roshars biggest cities. Nothing really strange there.

Nice idea, but I doubt it. Ashs destruction of stuff is a great set-up for her being a Dustbringer, and Talns torture doesn’t seem to have changed his personality all that much, from the little we have seen of him.

Yeah, he probably has depth. He is a Sanderson character after all. But judging him from what I have seen, my feeling is that he doesn’t work for me. Small doses is okay, but he can really easily become too much. And Kaladin trusting him doesn’t really matter to me when judging him as a character. He is loyal, yes, and I appreciate that, but it is a pretty common trait among heroes in fantasy. @Minimanmax1 is pretty much summarizing not only his view on Lopen, but mine too. Good post.

Well, its no secret that I love Amaram. I read him as a tragic villain, and find him interesting. If anyone wants more on that, check out the Disliked character thread where I recently went a few rounds with Pathfinder on the subject. Aside from him, I really love Dalinar after reading Oathbringer. His arc in that book is my favorite in any Cosmere book, I think. I also really like Nale (easily fascinated by the justice-obsessed characters). Another one I like is Mraize, even tough I’m convinced that he will be a very hateable character once we learn more of him. Taln, Rysn, Axies and Pattern are also favorites of mine, with Szeth starting to grow on me in OB. I also wanna throw Jenet the horsemaster in here, even though she only appeared once. I really liked her personality.

I honestly forgot about that, so thanks for the reminder. I would say though, the Lift and Wayne are more well-developed than he is (which isn’t strange, since they are main characters). Most of what you see with Lopen is the jokes. With Lift, you still see a lost child, and with Wayne you still see guilt and loneliness. With Lopen, you see jokes 95% of the time, which I feel is too much.

This. I actually really enjoy Wayne, and Lift does have interesting things beyond being comic relief. But Lopen... that is the only thing he is. We have had him around for three books, and the only thing we learned about him is that he likes to fool around and has a ton of cousins (the last one being one of the Lopen-jokes I like). I really look forward to see more of Herdazian Houdini aka the Herdazian General. So that we can get a different perspective on Herdazians than just Lopen.

Haha! It works!

This made me chuckle. If Peter is reading this, I hope he tells Brandon to put it in SA4. The Ghostbloods could use it. Heck, I might start using it.

I have things I could say about your arguments, as I do feel that you are misinterpreting me on certain points (for example, I have made it quite clear that I have not given you an exact answer of when Amaram joined Odium because there isn’t an official answer for it, and the only thing we have is guesses). You also state that you feel like I am ignoring evidence that shows Amaram as a narcissist (I hate attempting to spell that word by the way) and maybe I am. I am certainly biased for Amaram. My reading of his character has always been that of the tragic villain, and spending so much time defending a character like I have with Amaram defenitely makes me attached to him. However I feel like you are ignoring evidence in the same way that you feel that I do. In the end, I think it is quite clear that there are at least two valid positions to take on Amaram. Yours and mine (and I do think that you are making a good case). And I also know that there are people who share your view, and people who share mine. At the end of the day, I agree that we should agree to disagree. I know Brandon has said that he is all for that readers interpret his stories in various ways, and I think that is the right way to look at things. Amaram is the deluded narcissistic villain in your interpretation, and the tragic misguided general in mine. And that is the beauty of stories, isn’t it? Anyway, thanks for an interesting discussion, and good luck with your Amaram thread. I might do one myself at some point, which I think I have spoken to you about. But I have never gotten to it.

In Soviet Roshar Mraizes slippers wears YOU!

Not unless you also have the high ground and the Heralds think that you are underestimating their power.

Arrow to the knee.

Yes, it is implied that he convinced him that killing Kaladin was necessary. Restares is right - this is what must be done. Amaram thinks that Restares is right about something. I think we are in agreement thus far. But then he continues, saying that Restares is right about that this must be done. This is obviously referring to murdering Kaladins men. And if Restares has told Amaram that it must be done, the implication is that Amaram didn´t want to do it. Now, you are correct about that we don´t know exactly what Amarams objection was, but it sounds to me as if he is convincing himself that the act itself can be excused with the greater goal. This is not really narcissistic or a delusion though. We see Renarin and Moash training with Shards in WoR, and it is a hard thing to get the hang of. It is not unlikely to assume that Amaram might have trained with plate or Blade before, and even if he hasn´t, he has seen them in action, knows the strategy and is well-versed with the sword as a weapon. If they need the Shards to be useful relatively quickly, Amaram is a better choice to wield them. Furthermore, people are trading kingdoms for Shards. They are incredibly valueable. A skilled user can easily turn the tide of a battle. So that Alethkar would benefit from a skilled Shardbearer in the event of a Voidbringer attack is a no-brainer. Do note, I am not saying that Amaram did the right thing. I am saying that this is' t necessarily a delusion. Bolded by me. You are reading a lot more into this statement than I am. Amaram is justifying his actions here (or at least trying to) but we don´t know wether he thinks that he and only he is fit to wield the Blade and Plate. In fact, his clear admiration for others, like Taln or Dalinar, implies that he might consider them more worthy than he is. If he genuinely believes it because it reinforces his fantasy, he would not believe it, because he knows that his fantasy isn' t real. That is very clear. He looks ashamed when Kaladin calls him out on his crem dung, and states that he hurt and felt bad because of what he did to Kaladin. This implies that he knows that he has done the wrong things, and is aware of it, and can' t ignore it. You can´t genuinely believe something that you know is there just to reinforce a lie. Dalinar defenitely has a moral compass. Yet he was tempted by Odiums offer to take his pain away. Amaram has a moral compass but wasn' t able to resist the temptation. He says this very clearly. He hurt once, but then realized nothing was his fault. When he hurt, he knew that he had done morally repulsive things. He didn´t feel huge guilt over screwing up his own reputation. He felt guilt over doing what he did to Kaladin. Siding with Odium is what he did to avoid having to live with the guilt. I think that is very obvious from the text. And Amaram the tragic villain makes sense to me with or without extra scenes. The extra scenes would have made his descent clearer, and might even have made readers feel sorry for him, which would have made the final act in OB even stronger than it already is. He wishes that he' d have killed him so that he could have kept his reputation and his friendship with Dalinar. If he could stand murdering Kaladin, why spare him? It isn' t for his ego, because from that point of view, his actions are already justified, and the delusion already built up. His fantasy world wouldn' t break if he killed Kaladin. In fact, long term, it would be the smartest thing to do. Had Kaladin died, his crimes would never have been revealed. If he wants to keep his reputation intact, killing him is the best choice. So why not do it? Fair enough. It can be read that way. It can also be read as Amaram genuinely worrying, and is in need of talking to someone about it. I guess we will have to agree to disagree about our interpretation. The only other thing I' ll say about this is that Amaram mentions himself once in that passage. Otherwise it is all about "us". He isn' t speaking of his own burden, but the Sons of Honor as a group. Amaram is genuinely excited about the return of the Heralds. He doesn' t think about the crowds that will be cheering for him. Not of the glory he will recieve. Not about how the Heralds will thank him for his actions. Not about statues built in his honor. Only about how exciting it is that the Heralds will finally return, and how proud Gavilar would be. A narcissist would think more of how he would benefit directly, or about how he has contributed to the greater good. But in this chapter, Amaram is only a passionate man who is hyped to meet the people he considers to be divine. If that is the case, why isn' t he thinking about his excitement over his future glory, instead of his excitement over reaching the greater good and meeting the Heralds? He is devastated about the lie because that means he commited all his crimes for nothing. The justifications are gone, and all that is left is a liar and murderer. The lies of the Heralds shatters Amarams entire foundation. I think most religious people would be devastated if they discovered that their faith was a lie, and that the ones they worshipped were the people who lied and betrayed them. He was "forced" by a combination of the greater good, his ego and pressure from Restares. I think you will notice that Amaram is a follower. He needs someone to follow and look up to. Gavilar, Dalinar, Restares. Peer pressure is an effective mechanic to control that kind of person, and Restares commands must have been hard for Amaram to dismiss. Especially if he threw in some religious arguments. Believe me when I say that those kinds of divine-based arguments can have immense power when used on the right person. I know this firsthand from personal experience. But you are right in that it still was an active choice that he made. Which is why he felt bad. And he says that he hurt after killing Kaladins men. Not after learning about the lies of the Heralds. Not after losing Dalinars friendship. Not after being revealed as a liar and murderer. But after killing innocent men. This hurt was killing him, like it was killing Dalinar and forced him into drinking. The difference is how they dealt with it. There isn' t an exact timeline for this. I know some people think it happened when Amaram was bringing Taln to Urithiru. My personal headcanon is that it happened when he was overseeing the rebuilding of Thaylen City. But it defenitely happened after his WoR POV, otherwise we should have seen signs of Odiums influence. He broke after learning of the Heralds lies after all, and that hadn' t happened in WoR. So my answer is sometime during OB. I am not, and have never, put all Amarams crimes on Odium. In fact, I have been quite clear with that they are his faults. As for Sadeas, I think he means that he knows that Amaram isn' t as honorable as he pretends to be. Furthermore, Amaram doesn' t react with denial or anger at that, as far as I remember. Which he should do, if he was a narcissist. So the parallells between him and Dalinar in OB are a coincidence? 1. Yes, Amaram says this. He also says that he wouldn' t have a problem with it as long as it happens after the Voidbringers are defeated. At this moment, Dalinar hasn' t yet agreed to that, and he doesn' t know what Dalinar is about to do. 2. How would Amaram know that Dalinar wouldn' t try to apprehend him despite this? Or have him executed directly. The Blade was a precaution. 3. Not yet. But summoning takes ten heartbeats. He wanted to be prepared. 4. Dalinar thinks Amaram is foolish at times. Not stupid. How would a person stupid enough to kill a highprince in the middle of his own army ever reach to a position where he could command armies, be widely respected and trusted with the secrets of king Gavilar and the Sons of Honor? Yet he doesn' t violently attack Kaladin, despite having the opportunity to. He doesn' t violently attack Sadeas. He doesn' t violently attack Dalinar in OB. He doesn' t violently attack Wit. My first words were actually supposed to be that the Sadeas soldiers were suspicious and angry at everyone in Urithiru, just had their highprince killed, and yes, had a habit of being disorganized and slovenly. Not an easy mess to clean. But still, he managed to make them successfully rebuild Thaylen City. How come no one every calls him out on not being a great general then? How would he have gained the trust and respect of Dalinar, Sadeas, Gavilar and Alethkar in general if he was an incompetent general who constantly failed and was stupid enough to try and murder a Highprince in front of his entire army. He can' t be falsifying entire battles. And I have provided several arguments for why it doesn' t work for me. Amaram hurt after killing Kaladins men. Amaram isn' t violent when critizied by Sadeas and Hoid. Amaram genuinely believes in his religion and his cause. Amaram is pressured by his mentor figures. Amaram is given huge responsibilities, which you don' t give to a narcissist with half a brain. First off, at this point, he has sided with Odium. I'm 99% certain on that. Second, this isn' t bragging. This is frustration at not being allowed to be in the thick of the action. Do you think Kelsier would want to spend time rebuilding cities when there is a war to fight? Wax? Vin? His insult to her isn' t a rationalization for why she hates him. They are an angry answer to her insults. Just like Kaladin and Shallan counter eachothers insults when they dislike eachother in WoR. That doesn' t change the fact that she is negatively biased. She only speaks of his bad sides. We don' t need a witness that tells us Amaram has done bad things, because we know he has. The more interesting witness is the one without a bias, but with knowledge. Sadly we don' t have one of those.

Tearim is, for those of you who might have forgot, the captain of Gavilars Kings Guard, and, according to the Coppermind, known as one of the worlds greatest duelists. Yup, high praise there. Yet, we dont see him during Dalinars flashbacks, fighting for or against the Kholins. We don' t see or hear from him at the Plains either. So where in the storms is this guy? If he is a world famous legendary warrior, surely he should be mentioned more than once over the course of three books? For reference, the time he is mentioned is in the WoR prologue.

Kelsier as Magneto is an atpt comparison. Same for Hoid as the Doctor. Ruin always makes me think of Fire Emblem for some reason.