Toaster Retribution

"It took hours to decide, but Restares is right - this is what must be done. For the good of Alethkar." This heavily implies that Restares was convincing Amaram to do it. Why would he even speak of Restares opinions if they just discussed how to get away with the act. And furthermore, the quote is in the context of Amaram telling Kaladin why he couldn´t just ask for the Shards. That implies that Amaram maybe wanted to ask, but Restares told him not to. We have to read into things when discussing Amaram, since he doesn´t have too much screen-time. But I believe that the way the quote is phrased and the context it is in, defenitely makes it look like Restares was convincing Amaram to commit the crime. Yes, he has to be seen as the one who rightfully claimed the Blade. Both for his egos sake and for helping Alethkar. I am not arguing against that Amaram is driven by ego. I' m arguing that he is driven by more than one thing, as is the case with most humans. He is complex character, not a one-dimensional bad guy. Amaram looks guilty because he knows that part of him is driven by greed, and that it is partially about himself. But not completely. If that was the case, this exchange would be very out of place: Amaram looked Kaladin in the eys. "I am sorry for what I did to you and yours. Sometimes, good men must die so that greater goals might be accomplished." Kaladin felt a gathering chill, a numbness that spread from his heart outward. He... honestly believes that he did the right thing. Amaram honestly believes that his actions were justified. He doesn´t like them, because he has a moral compass, but he does believe that it was for a good cause. And Kaladin believes him. As for sparing Kaladin, that is a risk. He could just has well have done it out of guilt. He couldn´t bear to murder the man who saved his life. It looks more as a way to convince himself that he isn´t all bad, makes his sins easier to forget. Read Amarams POV at the end of WoR. It shows his drive for the greater good. Some quotes for you: I do not exult in this success. Lives will be lost. It has ever been our burden as the Sons of Honor. To return the Heralds, to return the dominance of the Church, we had to put the world into a crisis. The crisis we now have, a terrible one. The Heralds will return. How can they not, with the problems we now face? But many will die. So very many. Nalan send that it is worth the loss. This is Amarams letter to Restares, and speaks of his worries and guilt at the death of millions. He also makes it clear that he cares about the greater goal, and that he hopes that the return of the Heralds will be worth the loss of human lives. It was happening. It was really happening. The Sons of Honor had, at long last, achieved their goal. Gavilar would be proud. Amaram seems to be very excited about the imminent return of the Heralds. And he also thinks of how Gavilar would feel in regards to their success. Do note, he does not think of any of his own achievements or sacrifices here. Just about the success of the Sons of Honor as a whole. A narcissist would probably try to claim glory somewhere here, but he doesn´t. In fact, Amaram does not seem particularly narcissistic at all in this sequence. He does not speak to Taln about himself either, but instead talks about how Taln is, and what is awaiting Taln. Amaram had, somewhat foolishly, expected all Heralds to look Alethi. He admits to being a fool in certain aspects. Again, not really a sign of narcissism. The Desolation... Talenelat whispered. "Yes. It comes. And with it, your return to glory." Bolded by me. Again, Amaram focuses on Taln, not himself. Because to him, Taln is a holy being. Heart thumping in his chest, he looked back toward Talenelat, worried for the Heralds safety. After Amaram is attacked by Iyatil, he worries for Talns safety, and takes a moment to let his guard down and check on him. Granted, you could argue that this is just because he wants to deliver Taln and gain glory, but his earlier words and thoughts speaks of him as a man dedicated to the greater cause, and Taln is very much part of that cause. Yes we do. We see that Odium has taken away Amarams pain. Here: "I hurt once", Amaram said. "Did you know that? After I was forced to kill your squad, I... hurt. Until I realized. It wasn´t my fault. The color of his glowing eyes intensified to a simmering crimson. "None of this is my fault." This is what Odium does to people. He takes their pain, makes them feel like they don´t have to be held responsible for their own actions. He tries to do this exact thing to Dalinar, and fails: "Don' t blame yourself" Odium said as Dalinar winced. "I made you kill her, Dalinar. I caused all of this." This is what Odium does. He takes away pain, and convinces people it wasn´t their fault. He tricks and deceives them. Amarams claims at Thaylen Fields are more extreme than he has been earlier. This is Odiums effect. Odium enhances his bad traits by encouraging him to make up excuses for his actions. It is at this point, under the influence of Odium, that Amaram has turned into a full-blown narcissist, whereas he only has narcissistic streaks earlier. This is also why he is the foil to Dalinar. They have both done terrible things. They are both haunted by them. One gives in to Odium, the other doesn´t. It is a main point of the narrative in OB. In that way, Amaram is a foil to Jasnah. However, he serves a bigger narrative purpose by being Dalinars foil, not Jasnahs. He directly works as a mirror to the main character arc in OB, and shows what would happen if Dalinar had gone down the simple route, instead of the difficult one. Dalinar was about to prove that Amaram was guilty of murder, theft, lies and miscrediting his own victim. An arrest could have happened at any time. And Amaram would be a fool to strike down Dalinar then and there. They were standing in the middle of Dalinars bodyguards, and his army, with his loyal son, the dueling champion, and a bunch of other loyal shardbearers nearby. Had Amaram gone for it, he wouldn' t have left alive. And he is not that stupid. The Blade was there to ensure that he could get away, nothing more. First off, Jasnah says it herself: Amaram genuinely thinks he is Alethkars hope and salvation. Genuinely. Second, he loses his temper here, and is shamed in front of dozens of people. He has an overinflated ego, and is used to be able to command respect with his Blade. I doubt he would actually try to kill Jasnah here. We can also note that we don´t know the timeline of when Odium started hanging out with him. This could be before or after, but if it is the latter case, he was influenced by him here. I personally think he switched sides in Thaylen City, but there is no evidence for that. Considering one a fool isn´t the same as consider them stupid. Gandalf considers Pippin to be foolish at times, but never stupid. Amaram is a great general, and is trusted by both Gavilar and Restares. You don´t get that high up in a secret organization if you are stupid. The fact that Gavilar liked him also speaks for his intelligence. Gavilar was intelligent, no question about it. Amaram does things he thinks is right (killing Kaladins men, which is an action Kaladin states that he himself believes was right) and still feels bad about it, because he killed and betrayed innocents. And he felt bad before Kaladin revealed it to Dalinar. The tomato argument is not representative of how Amaram acts or thinks. As for the narcisism, I have already shown why I don´t think Amaram has the personality disorder. He defenitively has narcisistic traits, but not the entire disorder. He is in fact suffering from inner feelings of shame as stated above. He is also not at all times talking about his own greatness. In fact, he speaks of Dalinar as a role model and praises him, not himself. He speaks of glory for Taln, not himself. He is a great general, but he never goes into long rants about his military accomplishments. He is also very aware of the fact that Jasnah rejects him, and asks her why. He does not blame Dalinar for causing their friendship to break. Furthermore, Wikipedia states that the disorder brings lack of emphaty, which doesn't fit with Amaram. Agreed. But I think they also show his care about the greater good, and genuine horror at the crimes he commits. Yes, he does the things Jasnah accuses him of. But she hates him, and therefore, is not a great character witness. She is right about that he does bad things, but her overall assessment might miss out on the better parts, simply because of her bias.

Mraize is Radiant confirmed

There is one that he is one of the guys on Gavilars meeting in Eshonais prologue, and another one that he is Aesudans father.

We know nothing of how Restares convinced Amaram. There is nothing that points to Restares using Amarams ego to do it. And besides, the fact that Amaram didn’t want too, even when he could hide it and have his reputation benefit from it, is a sign of caring. The book is very clear when it comes to Amaram feeling guilty. He repeats it time and time again, and people like Kaladin?, who hates him believes it. Amaram keeps on justifying his actions with the help of Vorinism. When he discovers that Vorinism is a lie, he can’t forgive himself, because suddenly, all his crimes were for nothing. Which is where Odium comes in, and offers to take away Amarams pain. It makes thematic sense, and character-sense. It is also the reason for why Amaram is such a great foil to Dalinar. Both struggle with guilt. One overcomes it. The other fails. Also, he didnt summon his Blade to attack Dalinar or Jasnah. Dalinar was an attempt to defend himself if the Kholins attempted to arrest him. Jasnah was because he lost his temper. Attacking them would be stupid, and Amaram isnt stupid. Why does he feel bad in private if everything he does is for his ego? If all the caring is an act. Yes, what Amaram did is on him. And yes, partially he was bad for egoistical reasons. Partially it was for idealistic reasons. I think he is more complex than you give him credit for. We dont know how much time they have spent together. Dalinar loved Amaram, and they spent time together too. Might even be more time than Jasnah (could be less too, we dont know). Point is, Jasnah has an unknown beef with Amaram. We dont know what he did to her. We dont know how well she knows him. We know that they have history, that Amaram has a crush on Jasnah, and that Jasnah doesn’t like him. That is not enough to ignore her bias.

I just dont think this makes sense from what we know of Amaram. We know he cares. That is also made very clear in the books. He had to be talked into stealing the Blade. And when he did it, he did it for the greater good, which I think even Kaladin recognizes when he and Dalinar confront Amaram in WoR. And he is haunted by his crimes, and states his pain at the death of people in his letters to Restares, who he shouldn’t have to feig honor for. You are certainly right about that Amaram is in part motivated by selfishness and a wish for glory. But he is also motivated by genuinely wanting to bring Vorinism back to a people who is slowly losing it, and helping his country. There is evidence for both of these sides of him in the books, and I think both are correct. Amarams story is the story of a man who wants to be what he can’t become, because of his inability to beat his personal weakness, which is why he is a great foil to Dalinar. They are both men who have selfish drives, and heroic drives. The difference is that Dalinar ultimately fiund the strenght to be the hero. Amaram did not. He did not choose Odium for the glory. He chose Odium because he was unable to do what Dalinar did and accept his mistakes, and take the next step. Odium spent OB talking about taking peoples pain. Dalinar turned him down, but Amaram didn’t because he couldn’t live with the guilt. Finally, using Jasnah to evaluate Amaram feels like using Kelsier to evaluate a nobleman. She is obviously biased, which affects her objectivity.

Oh no...

Yeah, seems like they were allies to Team Honor. There is info on the Coppermind.

Wait, Amaram is a favorite of yours? I salute you, Mr Hat. I too have my problems with him in OB (he needed more page-time) but I wouldn’t mark it down as bad. I feel like their jokes sometimes kills suspense, or comes at the expense of the story. Like Lopen randomly getting KR-powers at the end of OB and immediately start being rude to the Stormfather (who I actually think is funnier than Lopen). And Lifts interruption of Odiums and Dalinars first meeting to talk about butts was just... no. They have their moments, but Brandon could easily cut 20-30% of their comedic stuff and the books would benefit from it. I know a lot of people thinks Shallans jokes dont land, but she is comedic gold compared to Lopen and Lift in my opinion. And the funniest Stormlight character is Pattern, by far.

I discussed this in another thread a couple days ago, and I have finally decided to make a thread purely dedicated to it. For those of you who doesnt remember, Mraize wears slippers when he meets with Ash in Oathbringer. I find this awesomely hilarious. Mraize, the mobster boss, hunter, scarred warrior, worldhopper, spy and general enigma is wearing stormin slippers? So, lets discuss! Anyone else who are fascinated by Mraizes slippers? How many pairs do we think he has? Are they invested? Does he have slippers from different planets? What size are they? SLIPPERS!!!!

I hope it is not Chana. I’m hyped to see her, so having her die quickly would be a bummer.

Sounds like Smokeform might be the Edgedancer form taken by the Parshendi Lift chases at Thaylen Field.

Sure, you can. And eventually we will see all the Heralds interact, probably in present time, but at least in Taln and Ash flashbacks.

The Pailiah WoB is unreliable though, since we never got a picture of the book it was written in. And the above WoB implies that there is only one Herald in Taravangians proximity. I personally dont think both Battar and Pailiah are in Kharbranth.

They are not both in Kharbranth. Looks like just one of them is. Unclear which one though.

If Moash is going to run around knifing Heralds from now on, who will he attempt to stabby-stab next? And will he succeed?

Aquaman = Parshendi confirmed. Honestly, sounds plausible to me. Might be the ones who Puuli is waiting for.

Mraize has slippers when he meets Ash in Oathbringer. I have been fascinated by this ever since. And you are my favorite arcanist/God Beyond! We are friends! SA is so much more than just the Kholins and Shallan. Moash/Kaladin, the war in Alethkar, Cosmere lore, Ishar on the rise, Nale on Team Odium, the Singers revolution, Mraize and his shady stuff, more Radiants, more Unmade, Vivenna and Vasher, the Sibling, Taravangian playing all sides, Cultivation and Hoid meddling, the Heralds trying to survive, Axies & Rysn, Anaram as a Cognitive Shadow (ok, probably not, but I can hope). Thing is, even if I was displeased with the Kholins and Shallan, which Im really not, I would have had tons of cool things to look forward too.

True, true. I am interested by the prospect of time skip as well. How many slippers will Mraize have managed to get his hands on? Has Amaram gained the post-mortem fans he deserves? How high is Nales wage working for Odium compared to what he had working for Honor? In reality I agree with you. I was joking. Open polls are fun for informal opinion gathering though. It feels like I am Anakin and Cal is the High Ground.

@Calderis The arcanist strikes again! I had forgotten about the WoB, so thanks for the reminder. There are a couple reasons for why I felt that the arc was over. First one is simply that Adolin isnt one of the main three (four in the next book, since Venli probably has a big role). Adolin has never really had major arcs of his own and I felt like the Sadeas thing wouldn’t fit in considering all the other stuff we will presumably get in book 4. The other reason is simply that it feels like exploring the ramifications if Sadeas murder one in-story year after Adolin reveals that he did it, would just feel strange to me. Like Dalinar (or someone else) waits for the readers to come back before they punish Adolin. @Karger Open polls are the best thing since toasted bread. That is objective truth.

@Calderis It felt like that plotline is done. At least, that is how I read it. But I might be wrong. @Justi I think Brandon means that Shallan is a character people interpret differently, and who some people really, love, and some people really dont get. Which is how real people work. Not trying to get political, but Trump is a great example. The people who love the guy are huge fans. And the people who dont like him despises him. Same with Shallan. Also, as for the poll, it was made just after OBs release (by me!) and I think Shallans numbers might be a bit lower had it been done today. When OB was fresh, frustration about Shallan was bigger, because people had not had the time to digest her role in the book yet. Had I made the poll today, I think she would have a lower number (but again, I might be wrong).

I see your point, but I dont necessarily agree. I think female characters get branded as annoying, and men as whiny. People dont call the female cast of Wheel of Time whiny. They are annoying. Rose Tico isnt said to be whiny, but annoying. And every main male character in classic fantasy are called whiny, but not annoying. Furthermore, I would say that the most severely hated character ever is Jar Jar Binks, who is a guy. I’ll give you this: Dalinar and Adolin, especially the resolution to Sadeas murder, was kinda lame.

@Justi Renarin will be a flashback character in books 6-10. He is more of a slow burn character I think. You will see more Renarin the further the story progresses.

I think this is partially due to Mistborn discussion not being as dominating in the fandom the last couple of years. I have seen plenty of people who hates Wayne. But since SA is discussed more, the Lift criticism is more visible. I think that women in fiction are regarded as annoying and men are regarded to be whiny. This defenitely has to do with how men and women are viewed in societies in real life. I am the kind of person who only gets really frustrated if the character is a complete douche (Uthred in The Last Kingdom or Ivar in Vikings) or in my mind, overpowered and over-hyped (Jasnah is in this cathegory for me, along with Arya in the last couple of GoT seasons, where her writing is atrocious). Generally female and male characters get hate, but for different reasons. Rey, Egwene, Shallan, are all commonly disliked characters, byt so are Anakin, Thrall, Wayne, etc. Sometimes fans (often Star Wars ones) go way overboard with their dislike, but mostly I just find the resulting discussions interesting.

Odium has a hit list, and he knows the other Shards, presumably rather well. He took down Ambition first, because he found her the most dangerous, presumably because of the Intent. After that, he has been going for pairings. I think he wants to take down the ones who are good at or at least willing to cooperate early. Aona and Skai, Honor and Cultivation. I suspect that Scadrial would have been his next goal after Roshar. He will leave the ones bent on isolation until it is too late for them to realize their error. Also consider that Shards are not thinking like humans would. They are strongly influenced by their intents. Ati/Ruin is probably the best example of this, since he was a kind man twisted by his Shard. Some other the other Shards might be incredibly into isolation, due to how they interpret their intent.

Its hilarious that the the most reasonable moral code a Skybreaker has chosen is the one represented by an ex-genocidal tyrant who accidentally burned his wife. You gotta love the Skybreakers.