Mid Range 50: The Northern Wind II

[Quintessential she/her]

15 minutes ago, Matrim's Dice said:

I genuinely don't know what this is referring to.

The lack of Assassins and Bodyguards in LG75 lol

4 minutes ago, Jondesu said:

I read it. I just wanted to know if anyone else had thoughts. Sometimes I miss things in rules, you could have too.

I went back over them pretty thoroughly after I saw that there was no elim kill : P

[Jondesu he/him]

By the way, I don’t know if I should do this, but I’m gonna fess up to the coded message. It wasn’t meant to break any rules; that rule was new while I was gone and I don’t know it had been added. I won’t be sharing a key with anyone (I don’t have one anyways) and anyone could theoretically decode it but I’d suggest just ignoring it and continuing as if I hadn’t unintentionally broken a rule.

[Devotary of Spontaneity]

49 minutes ago, Quintessential said:

You know the Biologist can't scan hospitalized people, right? Hospitalized people can only be targeted by actions from visitors, and visitors can only use kills and heals. Therefore, the elims don't actually have to worry about that; it's only a problem for them if they attack someone who has a Sak, and that person reveals they were attacked (which they would know because they'd be RB'd and lose the bird), and specifically asks for a Biologist to scan them.

The role the elims really have to worry about is Navigator, because Navigator can show everyone who targeted a person, and can do it without actually revealing their own identity.

The biologist specifically can scan hospitalised people.

Quote

Each cycle you can target a single player, including someone in the hospital. You’ll learn the identity of one player that targeted them the previous cycle.

The navigator sees a player's target, not a player's targeters. They scanned you to see who you targeted, not Gears to show everyone who targeted him. Still useful but in a different way.

[Quintessential she/her]

Just now, Devotary of Spontaneity said:

The biologist specifically can scan hospitalised people.

Ah, okay, I missed that.

1 minute ago, Devotary of Spontaneity said:

The navigator sees a player's target, not a player's targeters. They scanned you to see who you targeted, not Gears to show everyone who targeted him. Still useful but in a different way.

And yes, sorry, that's what I meant--the Navigator has the potential to anonymously follow the elim submitting the kill and report who that person targeted. Which is very bad for the elims and pretty useful for us lol

[StrikerEZ he/him]

I feel like I should quote something from the rules to clarify something.

Quote

Biologist: You’ve studied the flora and fauna of the Pantheon in detail, and will accompany the expedition to aid in the capture and study of the Aviars. Right now there’s not much to do for you though. You do have access to the ship’s laboratory, as well as a stack of detective novels. Each cycle you can target a single player, including someone in the hospital. You’ll learn the identity of one player that targeted them the previous cycle. If the laboratory is sabotaged while occupied, one occupant at random is hospitalized.

The bold was added by me. I hope this helps clarify some confusion!

[Gears]

The votes yesterday, with annotations.

• Philico votes Shade
• Quinn votes Biplet
• Tevris votes Tevris
• Szeth votes Szeth
• Azmine votes Illwei
• Illwei votes Azmine
• Order votes Zara for their unwillingness to vote
  • This was noted, but alas, Order has been exonerated.
• Philico retracts Shade and votes Quinn for preferring the Saboteurs to win over the Agent
  • I do note Tevris for their unusual questions
• Second votes Fourth
• Tevris votes the Captain
• Illwei votes Tevris for angering the Captain
• Order retracts Zara and votes the Captain
• Tevris votes Tevris
• Illwei votes Zara because of Order's hedging on that vote.
• Zara votes Tevris for their self-voting
• Shade votes Order for over-sharing
• Szeth votes Dawn for a false reason
• Philico votes Order for "gut reasoning"
• Second votes Roko for inclusive we
  • [OOC: My character is actively working against the airship. That doesn't mean that I am a Saboteur, and it doesn't mean that I am not. Or I could be lying. Take your pick.]
• Tevris votes Roko
  • The lack of reasoning is concerning. I would be perfectly amenable to their death.
• Biplet votes Order for leaving the vote despite saying it "won't stick"
• Quinn retracts Biplet and votes Illwei for voting Zara without reasoning despite having other suspicions.
• Szeth retracts Dawn and votes Illwei for commenting on their supsiciousness.
  • Noted.
• Fourth votes Illwei for having "ducked Tevris's question"
  • They did nothing of the sort. They answered the question. They had an answer of apathy. This is acceptable. This would be my answer as well.
• Illwei votes Order out of linked suspicion and also self-preservation
• Quinn retracts Illwei and votes Experience because of a mild read
• Tevris votes Order for a gut read on Illwei
• Philico retracts Order and votes Tevris
• [OOC: If I missed anything, yell at me.]

Tevris is distinctly noted. I would be amenable to their death. I see no reason why Illwei was up for death. I think that Order's death was reasonable, though given their early falterings at other times, perhaps a tad bit strong. No one else is distinctly noted. Given a distinct lack of votes this late into the day, I shall vote Tevris [Tani].

1 hour ago, Archer said:

Hey @Gears, did ya notice anything funny happen to you overnight?

Due to Quinn's action, I now know their role. The logic is obvious, but I shall leave it a "secret" for now in order to protect them. I do, however, expect them to die, so I would like to submit a request to Internal Affairs to put them in the Brig.

[Azmine_king]

Hey guys I'm here I need to read up tomorrow, I'll make an epic post to make up for it.

[|TJ| he/him]

13 hours ago, Archer said:

If the Tracker chose not to attack anyone this cycle, that is village alignment indicative. The elims would have been very unlucky if both of their attacks had been blocked. 

11 hours ago, Quintessential said:

[2] it would take some pretty insane balancing for an elim Tracker to work as a role, so I was already assuming the Tracker was village (if there is one at all *glares at Mat*). It's possible that the Tracker did submit a kill, but was roleblocked or submitted the kill on someone who had protection. It's also possible that the Tracker was inactive. Or they just decided that Terminal Seeking isn't worth it this early on  

Why are y'all mentioning Tracker for Trapper?? xD Had me confused there for a while.

6 hours ago, Gears said:

Tevris is distinctly noted. I would be amenable to their death. I see no reason why Illwei was up for death. I think that Order's death was reasonable, though given their early falterings at other times, perhaps a tad bit strong. No one else is distinctly noted. Given a distinct lack of votes this late into the day, I shall vote Tevris [Tani].

I'm reading Tani as the Agent right now, though I don't see any reason to kill her over it until we see an uptick in the no. of improved parts. 

6 hours ago, Gears said:

Due to Quinn's action, I now know their role. The logic is obvious, but I shall leave it a "secret" for now in order to protect them. I do, however, expect them to die, so I would like to submit a request to Internal Affairs to put them in the Brig.

Gears uses the word "logic" here meaning he worked it out rather than the action having a visible effect on him. Interestingly, Gears immediately assumes Quinn is village and makes no indication that any role Quinn might have is NAI OR the fact that Quinn could have been the one to submit the elim kill, rather requesting that she should be protected. This reads very much as TMI on Quinn as village to me. Gears

[Quintessential she/her]

Okay, great, thank you so much Gears for pointing out that you can actually figure out my role (or, well, narrow it down to two possibilities) just from what everyone knows. Now that he's said that, I'm just going to assume the elims know already and claim.

My action targeted a person, rather than a part of the ship, which means I'm not engineer or messenger and that I didn't place an anonymous note (which is doubly obvious since there isn't a second one) or request an Aviar. 

More specifically, my action targeted a living person on C1, meaning I'm not a Doctor or a Biologist. And it didn't independently cause any effects in the write-up, meaning I'm not a Navigator.

I could theoretically have requested an anonymous PM (I think?) but Gears's wording rules that out because he says he knows my role, not just what action I took. (Again, thanks a lot : P)

The only way I'm a Trapper (or an elim submitting the kill, for anyone who feels like being paranoid) is if Gears was Brigged; but I'm pretty sure that if he was Brigged, it would have occurred to him that I could be his attacker and not his savior, and he would have said something. Since he didn't, and since I didn't claim Internal Affairs at the start, the only possibility left is that I'm an Investigator... which I am.

So uh... yeah, if there are any Internal Affairs out there, I'd highly appreciate some protection : P TJ's right that it is a little weird Gears assumed I'm village, but on the other hand, second scans with Investigator are alignment scans, so it is a more useful role for the village.

[Biplet she/her]

3 hours ago, Quintessential said:

left is that I'm an Investigator... which I am.

Oof pretty useful role you just claimed. Agree, protection is good for Quinn lol.

No suspicions yet, but I am curious about what Gears is  lolol

TUO flipping engineer isn’t good. I’m hoping we have at least two more. That feels like a LOT of engineers, but it would be engineer insurance if we lost one early on… which happened. Ugh. 

Yo, Exp and Illwei when you see this, ppl avoided ties with you two last cycle. I’m hesitant to immediately read that as elim, bc no one likes a tie C1 lol, but I’m curious what your defense is, especially since TUO flipped village.

[Gears]

6 hours ago, |TJ| said:

Gears uses the word "logic" here meaning he worked it out rather than the action having a visible effect on him. Interestingly, Gears immediately assumes Quinn is village and makes no indication that any role Quinn might have is NAI OR the fact that Quinn could have been the one to submit the elim kill, rather requesting that she should be protected. This reads very much as TMI on Quinn as village to me. Gears

Alas, Shade seems to be incapable of reading between the lines. I know I was not Brigged as I was able to act freely. If pressed, I can reveal my action, but I would prefer to abstain for a time. As such, Quinn cannot have attempted to kill me. I misrepresented my intent to make Quinn accept the offer easier. Notably, the only protection that comes from another also restricts movement. As such, imprisoning them is the best course of action regardless of their motives on this voyage. If they are truly aligned with the Crew, then keeping them alive until the end is invaluable. If they are aligned with the Saboteurs, then keeping them from learning any further information is the correct choice, and it also winnows the options for those who can kill. Now that Quinn has in turn requested the same offer, they cannot retract this request without seeming distinctly odd. The plan has in fact succeeded. Huzzah.

3 hours ago, Quintessential said:

The only way I'm a Trapper (or an elim submitting the kill, for anyone who feels like being paranoid) is if Gears was Brigged; but I'm pretty sure that if he was Brigged, it would have occurred to him that I could be his attacker and not his savior, and he would have said something. Since he didn't, and since I didn't claim Internal Affairs at the start, the only possibility left is that I'm an Investigator... which I am.

So uh... yeah, if there are any Internal Affairs out there, I'd highly appreciate some protection : P TJ's right that it is a little weird Gears assumed I'm village, but on the other hand, second scans with Investigator are alignment scans, so it is a more useful role for the village.

I know with complete certainty that I was not Brigged. As such, that option is removed. A note: There is an option for anonymous communications? I was unaware.

I didn't assume any such thing. I misrepresented my opinions intentionally to trap you into a strictly advantageous position. If you are in fact a Crewmember, then you should be fine with this. If not, then you have no choice in the matter.

[Jondesu he/him]

I’m still stuck on Gears from before, so I’m totally on board with this. Forcing someone to reveal their role is never good anyways.

[Mat he/him]

I was gonna say-

55 minutes ago, Gears said:

I misrepresented my opinions intentionally to trap you into a strictly advantageous position.

This is not a village move imo :P. But I don't think it's an elim!Gears move to do this and then explain that he did it. So I'm staying on @Experience, who I want to come say something  

[Quintessential she/her]

28 minutes ago, Jondesu said:

I’m still stuck on Gears from before, so I’m totally on board with this. Forcing someone to reveal their role is never good anyways.

He didn't really, though. Anyone could have narrowed it down to either Internal Affairs or Investigator, both of which are targets for the elims. I was contemplating revealing anyway and asking for protection, but I wasn't sure whether it would be better to stay silent and hope the elims didn't realize. Really the person who forced me to reveal was whoever shone the ship's spotlights on me : P 

57 minutes ago, Biplet said:

No suspicions yet, but I am curious about what Gears is  lolol

I'm more inclined to trust Gears than suspect him, so I'm not going to reveal his role for now.

Current VC:

Illwei (1): Szeth
Exp (1): Matrim
Tani (1): Gears
Gears (2): TJ, Jondesu

I don't really understand why @|TJ| and @Jondesu are voting for Gears. What would an elim have to gain by intentionally revealing that they have knowledge of another player's role? It makes the elim in question more suspicious if that player dies to the NK, and calling attention to the fact that that player has an important role makes it more likely that they'll be protected, which in turn makes it harder to kill them.

As far as I can tell, Gears forced me to claim because A. I could be elim and B. if I'm not elim, I may already have a huge target on my back and my claiming will at least make the elims think twice about immediately attacking me. It's annoying because now it means I won't necessarily be able to scan people (which is why I sounded kind of annoyed when I claimed :P), but I'll still submit a scan each cycle on the off chance no one's protecting me. In the end, Gears probably just bought me a few more cycles of life, so I'm inclined to read him village for that.

1 minute ago, Matrim's Dice said:

This is not a village move imo :P. But I don't think it's an elim!Gears move to do this and then explain that he did it.

No, it's a Gears move. This kind of thing is why I find it so hard to read him  

[Mat he/him]

2 minutes ago, Quintessential said:

No, it's a Gears move. This kind of thing is why I find it so hard to read him  

Yes, that's what I was getting at  

[Gears]

11 minutes ago, Quintessential said:

As far as I can tell, Gears forced me to claim because A. I could be elim and B. if I'm not elim, I may already have a huge target on my back and my claiming will at least make the elims think twice about immediately attacking me. It's annoying because now it means I won't necessarily be able to scan people (which is why I sounded kind of annoyed when I claimed :P), but I'll still submit a scan each cycle on the off chance no one's protecting me. In the end, Gears probably just bought me a few more cycles of life, so I'm inclined to read him village for that.

'Twas not my intent to force you to claim. I merely intended to ensure that you would be protected from harm and prevented from acting to ensure that they would live as a Crewmember and not learn roles as a Saboteur. The misrepresentation of opinions to pretend that it was entirely out of good will merely ensured that you would accept. The decision to claim was your own. You were not forced into it. You did not need to do it. The implication of a powerful role alone would have been enough. In addition, the Saboteurs have all the same information that I did. They know that I was not the kill target and that I am not one of them, so I could not have been Brigged, and then all of the targeting of other jobs on the ship, so they knew your role already. [From my searching, I don't believe sending anonymous private messages exists.] Surely it is better that the Crew knows as well so they can protect you. While I did not intend this outcome, is it not superior to my silence, leaving the elims to kill you while no protection exists? 

27 minutes ago, Matrim's Dice said:

This is not a village move imo :P.

I would like elaboration on this point. Is it not the role of the Crew to ensure that important jobs are protected and that the Saboteurs are pinned down? I see no reason why I should not have acted in this manner. I see no reason why anyone would not have acted in this manner [save for those who reject the notion of dishonesty]. It succeeded. It was helpful [or rather, will be]. What more is to be strived for? 

1 hour ago, Jondesu said:

I’m still stuck on Gears from before, so I’m totally on board with this. Forcing someone to reveal their role is never good anyways.

[OOC: My character, Fourth of the Dark, is a person who is actively working against the Crew. They're a very traditional trapper, much like Dusk. Also, I claim elim a lot. I made it a trend. With Fourth of the Dark, I used "we" and "us" when referring to the elim faction because my character is basically a Saboteur [while technically not being part of them formally]. That has no bearing on my actual alignment. And I didn't force Quinn to reveal; they chose to do that after I requested protection for them. I can understand your suspicion, but I declare it unfounded. If you would like to persist in this unfounded suspicion, I will choose to disregard you and your points concerning me. Have a good day.]

[|TJ| he/him]

2 hours ago, Gears said:

As such, imprisoning them is the best course of action regardless of their motives on this voyage. If they are truly aligned with the Crew, then keeping them alive until the end is invaluable. If they are aligned with the Saboteurs, then keeping them from learning any further information is the correct choice, and it also winnows the options for those who can kill. Now that Quinn has in turn requested the same offer, they cannot retract this request without seeming distinctly odd.

Okay this is actually smart, but now I'm pondering if that was indeed your original plan or did you come up with after the slip was noticed.

1 hour ago, Quintessential said:

I don't really understand why @|TJ| and @Jondesu are voting for Gears. What would an elim have to gain by intentionally revealing that they have knowledge of another player's role? It makes the elim in question more suspicious if that player dies to the NK, and calling attention to the fact that that player has an important role makes it more likely that they'll be protected, which in turn makes it harder to kill them.

My thinking was, in this scenario the elims motive would be to pocket village!you by saying "hey this person is important. protect them" and when they reveal that this person is important, then that information becomes public knowledge, so them attacking you would not be suspicious then because everyone else knows you're important. Besides, anyone who tried could have narrowed your actions to roleblock, scan or elim kill tbh. 

My main point against Gears though, was he immediately assumed you were village and asked for protecting you, which he's now claiming to be a part of the plan. Fair enough, also, if by chance no one blocks Quinn and she survives, we can get to know Gears' alignment. Gears

Jondesu's voting seems very opportunistic. I think your D1 vote was that he portrayed an elim? Gears claiming elim is NAI and I think others have stated this.

[Jondesu he/him]

19 minutes ago, |TJ| said:

Jondesu's voting seems very opportunistic. I think your D1 vote was that he portrayed an elim? Gears claiming elim is NAI and I think others have stated this.

First, I’m not familiar with Gears and this trend, though of course it’s been mentioned now several times, but I have caught Elims in previous games (and IRL Mafia games) with similar admissions, so to a degree I don’t care if they’ve made it a play style. In fact, it’s a style I find problematic and would prefer to discourage. There’s nothing opportunistic about that.

Edit: it comes very close to gamethrowing, in my opinion.

Edited May 9, 2021 by Jondesu

[Mat he/him]

@Gears, your explanation is sound and I understand it. On the surface it doesn’t really look like it was helpful but you’re right in that it might actually be.

@Jondesu it’s only gamethrowing if you don’t disregard it imo 

[Illwei]

1 hour ago, Jondesu said:

Edit: it comes very close to gamethrowing, in my opinion.

I have to agree here on this, and this was a common d1 discussion topic back when gears started this.

Now, I'd like to welcome you all to the debate room.

First topic?

Quinn and Gears are both Elims. Discuss.

[Mat he/him]

11 minutes ago, Illwei said:

Quinn and Gears are both Elims. Discuss.

Well, that depends on if you voted on either of them last cycle.

I mean... I dunno what it would accomplish if it were true. Like, Gears successfully got his teammate thrown in the Brig every cycle? That wouldn't be good for them, especially if it were their rolescanner, and it's not like anyone is marking both/either as definitively village right now. So I'm going to say no on this one.

[Illwei]

5 hours ago, Biplet said:

Yo, Exp and Illwei when you see this, ppl avoided ties with you two last cycle. I’m hesitant to immediately read that as elim, bc no one likes a tie C1 lol, but I’m curious what your defense is, especially since TUO flipped village.

I really dont know what you expect me to defend lol. Someone not wanting to tie the vote?? I think people wanting to tie the vote isnt good and i dont think it has to do with the specific people, at least in my case. I dont remember XP being up there in the lead long enough for anything to matter there.

@matrim's dice but it doesnt work

Hm? Well, it depends on if you think that theres more than one...uh... ... ... brigman? And what the priorities of that person are going to be. 

I wouldnt be surprised if there was an elim brigman too. 

But if the priority is protection, and Gears does manage to get quinn protected, then that leaves the Elims less worried about being caught, and them also not worried about their target being protected. 

I have more to think but my break is over and i cant quote very easily on mobile :P. 

Edited May 9, 2021 by Illwei

[Devotary of Spontaneity]

1 hour ago, Illwei said:

Quinn and Gears are both Elims. Discuss.

That would require Quinn and Gears to have known that a navigator was going to scan Quinn, since I don't think there's any other reason for an elim to target a teammate C1. That would pretty much mean that Quinn, Gears, and the navigator are all evil, which I guess is possible.

In other Quinn opinions, a role/alignment scanner is only useful if they can actually submit scans, which can't happen if Quinn's roleblocked every cycle. The brig is also pretty useless as a way to protect villagers since sabotaging the brig as it protects someone accomplishes the same thing as attacking someone who isn't brigged. Kind of actively harmful since the elims can hospitalise two people at once if one of them is in the brig.

[Jondesu he/him]

1 hour ago, Illwei said:

I have to agree here on this, and this was a common d1 discussion topic back when gears started this.

Now, I'd like to welcome you all to the debate room.

First topic?

Quinn and Gears are both Elims. Discuss.

I doubt they’re both Elims, with them caveat that if Quinn ends up being lying about her role, he could be providing cover. That seems unlikely, though.

[Quintessential she/her]

4 hours ago, Jondesu said:

Edit: it comes very close to gamethrowing, in my opinion.

*sigh* in this particular case I have to strongly disagree with you, because Gears is RPing as one of the Saboteurs, and like... it'd be kind of unfair to outlaw RPing a certain character/POV imo. In other cases, where he's claiming elim OOC, I kind of get it, but also it's not really a big deal? idk. Like I don't see what the problem with saying you're elim is, because it's equally nonsensical for either alignment to do it, meaning that it's NAI. Treating it as if it should be AI (or forbidden) just doesn't make sense to me; if other people want to claim elim then it's really not that hard to just ignore it in serious analysis.

40 minutes ago, Devotary of Spontaneity said:

That would require Quinn and Gears to have known that a navigator was going to scan Quinn, since I don't think there's any other reason for an elim to target a teammate C1. That would pretty much mean that Quinn, Gears, and the navigator are all evil, which I guess is possible.

In other Quinn opinions, a role/alignment scanner is only useful if they can actually submit scans, which can't happen if Quinn's roleblocked every cycle. The brig is also pretty useless as a way to protect villagers since sabotaging the brig as it protects someone accomplishes the same thing as attacking someone who isn't brigged. Kind of actively harmful since the elims can hospitalise two people at once if one of them is in the brig.

A. Devo had the exact same response I did for the me/Gears e/e thing lol

B. The point of my claiming and asking for protection isn't to actually get protection--it's to keep the elims from attacking me. They (and I) don't know whether Internal Affairs will actually protect me or not. That's up to the person or people with that role to decide. However, so long as the elims know there's a higher than average chance that I'll have protection, they'll be wary of attacking me because doing so might backfire on them and prolong their win-con--something they already have had to deal with once, it seems, and probably aren't eager to have happen again.

Sabotaging the Brig is one way to get around that, obviously, but that was always going to be a problem; I doubt that village Internal Affairs was going to not protect people just because the Brig might be sabotaged that cycle.