"Anything you can do, I can do ... just as well?"

[Ixthos]

With regards to who-would-win scenarios, who else thinks that every magic system will eventually be revealed to potentially be capable of the same feats as every other? Especially with regards to future sight, memory storing and accessing, connection manipulation, investiture suppression, leaching, and enhancing, and even alternative-future-shadows (like Malatium and Renarin's light affecting Moash)?

The Cosmere has a unique set of interactions Investiture can produce when interacting with matter and the physical, cognitive, spiritual realm, and the interface between these worlds. While each manifests in a unique way, it seems probable that the mechanics of one type of interactions can be reproduced in others. So who else thinks that corrupted Truthwatchers use the same mechanic as Malatium, Bondsmiths use the same principles as Hemalurgy, Awakening and Feruchemy both use the same principles for memory storage, and the Sibling and a Leacher would see one another as having a lot in common?

[RedBlue]

Certain magical abilities can definitely be achieved via multiple different magic systems in the Cosmere. (Future sight, language interpretation, healing, etc.)

I’m not sure what you mean by different types of magic users using the same mechanics. They all use Investiture to make stuff happen. But the specifics of what they can do and how all seem very different. 

I think Nightblood is a good example. He’s kind of a Shardblade, but by way of a different magic system. And the result is that there are similarities between Nightblood and regular Shardblades, but also important differences. 

[Frustration]

I don't think so, no balancing attempt was made by Brandon, so some systems are just outright better than others.

I feel rather bad for Sand Mastery

[BenduLuke]

It seems to me that each world accesses a different aspect of investiture.

Roshar seems to involve accessing the magic through conjuration and binding spirit entities to empower them and so are limited to nature and elements of those spirits. It appears to access the most raw power but it also seems the least versatile.

Nalthis seems to operate through chromatic necromancy enchantment. (It steals life to power magic channeled through color to enchant things) It is limited to how much life has been stolen or given with color as a focus.

Sel seems to operate through symbolic evocation. limited to the accuracy of the symbols and location of the evocation. The sybolic evocation can also create enchantments.

Scadrial seems to operate through alchemy and is limited to the focus provided by the attributes of the metals their alloys and interactions between the shards on them. It appears to be the most versitile and grounded with the potential for the most and least powerful abilities depending on the situation. This magic also seems to lend itself to scientific discovery more so than any other.

I am not sure of Taldain's analog yet as I am not very familiar with White Sand.

[mathiau]

42 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

Scadrial. This magic also seems to lend itself to scientific discovery more so than any other.

How do you figure that?

[apepi]

I mean, it is all filtered through their shards(I am not sure we have seen any magic not shard related, besides creatures?).

Some of them get them through different things, like the Radiants can't even do certain things with their powers because of the oaths. Allomancy can be somewhat changed by Harmony and Preservation. Sel is very archaic.

The powers aren't them same because of this filter, Ruin's power wouldn't really be able to save people for another example.

[Kingsdaughter613]

4 hours ago, apepi said:

I mean, it is all filtered through their shards(I am not sure we have seen any magic not shard related, besides creatures?).

Some of them get them through different things, like the Radiants can't even do certain things with their powers because of the oaths. Allomancy can be somewhat changed by Harmony and Preservation. Sel is very archaic.

The powers aren't them same because of this filter, Ruin's power wouldn't really be able to save people for another example.

Not true on the last. One hemalurgic F-gold spike could be used to save a lot of people. (Stick it in a non-lethal bindpoint for someone badly injured. Give them a blank gold metalmind. Remove spike, patch entry wound and repeat with a new patient.) A-Pewter spike could do something similar. 

We also don’t know everything hemalurgy can do.

Edited March 14, 2021 by Kingsdaughter613

[apepi]

1 hour ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Not true on the last. One hemalurgic F-gold spike could be used to save a lot of people. (Stick it in a non-lethal bindpoint for someone badly injured. Give them a blank gold metalmind. Remove spike, patch entry wound and repeat with a new patient.) A-Pewter spike could do something similar. 

We also don’t know everything hemalurgy can do.

But alone, it can't heal anyone, it has to get that from others.

[Kingsdaughter613]

2 minutes ago, apepi said:

But alone, it can't heal anyone, it has to get that from others.

But it can enable lots of other people to be healed. As opposed to the power only being available to a few individuals. And we don’t know everything it can do.

Besides, many powers require multiple elements. You need access to Stormlight and a Spren bond to use any Radiant ability. You need a lot of technical know how, access to the Dor, and come from the right place to use a Selish system. Mistborn require being descended from someone who ate a godmetal and access to the correct metal. Feruchemists require being descended from the people altered by Preservation and the correct metal and an attribute store.

[Ixthos]

21 hours ago, RedBlue said:

Certain magical abilities can definitely be achieved via multiple different magic systems in the Cosmere. (Future sight, language interpretation, healing, etc.)

I’m not sure what you mean by different types of magic users using the same mechanics. They all use Investiture to make stuff happen. But the specifics of what they can do and how all seem very different. 

I think Nightblood is a good example. He’s kind of a Shardblade, but by way of a different magic system. And the result is that there are similarities between Nightblood and regular Shardblades, but also important differences. 

I mean that each system, or perhaps only the multiple systems on Scadrial, Sel, and Roshar - due to the breadth of each of those planet's multiple magic system's applications - can basically do the same things, that there is nothing one system can do that, with sufficient ingenuity, the others can't do as well, or at least replicate a similar effect. Much like how if you have fire you can work your way up to modern technology, if given enough time, just using the tools that the fire allows you to make, and the tools those allow you to make, etc.

 

21 hours ago, Frustration said:

I don't think so, no balancing attempt was made by Brandon, so some systems are just outright better than others.

I feel rather bad for Sand Mastery

To be fair, until Era 2 of Mistborn we had no idea Allomancy could make time bubbles. We still don't know what Voidbinding can do, or the different alloys of the shardmetals, or the different programs that Selish powers produce, etc. While Sand Mastery does seem love level, it also potentially is part of a larger system with the Skycolours, and could potentially do more. And while I know Slatrification might be removed, it does seem similar to soulcasting.

 

20 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

It seems to me that each world accesses a different aspect of investiture.

Roshar seems to involve accessing the magic through conjuration and binding spirit entities to empower them and so are limited to nature and elements of those spirits. It appears to access the most raw power but it also seems the least versatile.

Nalthis seems to operate through chromatic necromancy enchantment. (It steals life to power magic channeled through color to enchant things) It is limited to how much life has been stolen or given with color as a focus.

Sel seems to operate through symbolic evocation. limited to the accuracy of the symbols and location of the evocation. The sybolic evocation can also create enchantments.

Scadrial seems to operate through alchemy and is limited to the focus provided by the attributes of the metals their alloys and interactions between the shards on them. It appears to be the most versitile and grounded with the potential for the most and least powerful abilities depending on the situation. This magic also seems to lend itself to scientific discovery more so than any other.

I am not sure of Taldain's analog yet as I am not very familiar with White Sand.

Not a bad analysis :-) Also, hi from another Luke :-)

I will say that different aspects of investiture also potentially can converge on similar mechanics, and allow similar things with slightly different effects. For example, if one is very skilled with metalwork and only has a small amount of metal one can make a lock, or if one is strong and doesn't have great dexterity but does have a large object nearby one can bolt a door. While they are different techniques they nevertheless both involve preventing a door from swinging open.

 

18 hours ago, apepi said:

I mean, it is all filtered through their shards(I am not sure we have seen any magic not shard related, besides creatures?).

Some of them get them through different things, like the Radiants can't even do certain things with their powers because of the oaths. Allomancy can be somewhat changed by Harmony and Preservation. Sel is very archaic.

The powers aren't them same because of this filter, Ruin's power wouldn't really be able to save people for another example.

The shards are limited in some ways, but not in others. While Allomancy is powered by Preservation it does allow a Mistborn to take control of a spiked individual, something that Preservation can't do.

Edited March 14, 2021 by Ixthos

[Bejarden]

1 hour ago, Ixthos said:

The shards are limited in some ways, but not in others. While Allomancy is powered by Preservation it does allow a Mistborn to take control of a spiked individual, something that Preservation can't do.

Preservation used to be able to turn away Kolos

it says it somewhere in SH

So he might have been able to do a boatload more stuff before Ruin unraveled him

[Ixthos]

10 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

Preservation used to be able to turn away Kolos

it says it somewhere in SH

So he might have been able to do a boatload more stuff before Ruin unraveled him

I think that was actually in the epigraphs for Hero of Ages, where Sazed says something like "gone were the days when Preservation could turn away an Inquisitor with a base wave of his hand", or something. I think that was also a reference to the earlier draft where Endowment pointed and Marsh was forced to flee. Either way, while I don't doubt Preservation could do more before being unravelled, Preservation's power, when held by both Vin (fully) and Kelsier (partially and sans the mists), couldn't talk to anyone they weren't connected to strongly, such as Elend or Spook. As Ruin noted, Preservation's power wants to close wounds in other's souls, and thus can't use them. And I think Brandon said that Harmony is able to listen to thoughts using Preservation, and talk using Ruin - it might also be said in Shadow's of Self when Harmony talks to Wax, but I'm not sure.

[Kingsdaughter613]

41 minutes ago, Ixthos said:

I think that was actually in the epigraphs for Hero of Ages, where Sazed says something like "gone were the days when Preservation could turn away an Inquisitor with a base wave of his hand", or something. I think that was also a reference to the earlier draft where Endowment pointed and Marsh was forced to flee. Either way, while I don't doubt Preservation could do more before being unravelled, Preservation's power, when held by both Vin (fully) and Kelsier (partially and sans the mists), couldn't talk to anyone they weren't connected to strongly, such as Elend or Spook. As Ruin noted, Preservation's power wants to close wounds in other's souls, and thus can't use them. And I think Brandon said that Harmony is able to listen to thoughts using Preservation, and talk using Ruin - it might also be said in Shadow's of Self when Harmony talks to Wax, but I'm not sure.

Actually, Kelsier held the Shard fully. He just couldn’t access all the power. But he was able to see what the Mists saw and he recognized them as part of himself - just a part he couldn’t do very much with. It was like a paralyzed limb: still attached to his body, but one he couldn’t manipulate.

His bigger problem was that the Shard HATED him. It’s one of the reasons I recommend reading SH before RoW: it really helps explain what’s going on between Odium and Rayse.

[apepi]

8 hours ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Actually, Kelsier held the Shard fully. He just couldn’t access all the power. But he was able to see what the Mists saw and he recognized them as part of himself - just a part he couldn’t do very much with. It was like a paralyzed limb: still attached to his body, but one he couldn’t manipulate.

His bigger problem was that the Shard HATED him. It’s one of the reasons I recommend reading SH before RoW: it really helps explain what’s going on between Odium and Rayse.

Lord Ruler only held a portion of the power right? So they aren't counted as a sliver?

[Kingsdaughter613]

2 minutes ago, apepi said:

Lord Ruler only held a portion of the power right? So they aren't counted as a sliver?

TLR only held a portion, but it was enough to count. 

[Ixthos]

15 hours ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Actually, Kelsier held the Shard fully. He just couldn’t access all the power. But he was able to see what the Mists saw and he recognized them as part of himself - just a part he couldn’t do very much with. It was like a paralyzed limb: still attached to his body, but one he couldn’t manipulate.

His bigger problem was that the Shard HATED him. It’s one of the reasons I recommend reading SH before RoW: it really helps explain what’s going on between Odium and Rayse.

That is what I meant, I just didn't phrase it that way :-P my main point indicating it was to address any counters that Kelsier's example doesn't count because the shard resisted his use of it. Though it should be noted that its resistance to him is what partially allowed him to talk to Spook and to Vin, when his weak link allowed it to be pushed back from him. Though that does then raise questions about Vin being able to talk to Elend.

 

7 hours ago, apepi said:

Lord Ruler only held a portion of the power right? So they aren't counted as a sliver?

As @Kingsdaughter613 said, it does count, and in fact Rashek was the first person indicated to be a Sliver, hence his title as Sliver of Infinity.

[apepi]

4 hours ago, Ixthos said:

As @Kingsdaughter613 said, it does count, and in fact Rashek was the first person indicated to be a Sliver, hence his title as Sliver of Infinity.

Huh. Interesting. I...isn't it odd that Rashek could use that power while Kelseir had some trouble to? Rashek isn't much a greater choice than him. Could the Well have been unsealed?

Also stupidest thought....can you unseal a shard?

[Ixthos]

34 minutes ago, apepi said:

Huh. Interesting. I...isn't it odd that Rashek could use that power while Kelseir had some trouble to? Rashek isn't much a greater choice than him. Could the Well have been unsealed?

Also stupidest thought....can you unseal a shard?

Something noted by Sazed was that the Well's power - when claimed - was designed to attune someone to the Shard. Also, Rashek only used a small amount of Preservation, and it changed him. Kelsier was also changed, but the power wasn't designed to be usable by him, which was why he had to visit the Iree.

I don't think you can unseal a shard, but you might be able to, like Preservation, allow access to some of it to someone distinct from the shard.

[LewsTherinTelescope]

3 hours ago, apepi said:

isn't it odd that Rashek could use that power while Kelseir had some trouble to? Rashek isn't much a greater choice than him. Could the Well have been unsealed?

Rashek had a Physical body, for one thing, which was a major problem for Kel. Also, Rashek mostly used the power for the sake of Preserving. It refused to listen when he tried to destroy things. (Don't ask me why making the mistwraiths worked...)

3 hours ago, apepi said:

Also stupidest thought....can you unseal a shard?

What do you mean?

[Bejarden]

5 minutes ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Don't ask me why making the mistwraiths worked...)

Mistwraiths are the epitome of Preservation they live literally forever and can’t be hurt...until now (shadows of self)

[apepi]

1 hour ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Rashek had a Physical body, for one thing, which was a major problem for Kel. Also, Rashek mostly used the power for the sake of Preserving. It refused to listen when he tried to destroy things. (Don't ask me why making the mistwraiths worked...)

What do you mean?

Oh, I forgot about that, thanks.

Like normally to use a shard, you must fit the identity or have connection(I am not sure which?) to the shard that you would be the vessel for. But like metalminds, you can 'unseal' them somehow(like the Bands of Mourning), so that anyone could use it's abilities without having identity or even being an allomancer/feruchemist.

So...could you make the shard be 'unsealed', where you don't have to fit the shard? It could allow you to do what ever you want with the power, like for Preservation for example, you could hurt people with it instead of just preserving.

[Bejarden]

The Ire did this with Kelsier they forged a Connection but it only lasted very short if you can do it for longer you might be able to hack it

[LewsTherinTelescope]

20 minutes ago, apepi said:

Like normally to use a shard, you must fit the identity or have connection(I am not sure which?) to the shard that you would be the vessel for. But like metalminds, you can 'unseal' them somehow(like the Bands of Mourning), so that anyone could use it's abilities without having identity or even being an allomancer/feruchemist.

That's probably in large part Connection hacking, imo, so yeah, the Ire device might be a good example of that already.

20 minutes ago, apepi said:

So...could you make the shard be 'unsealed', where you don't have to fit the shard? It could allow you to do what ever you want with the power, like for Preservation for example, you could hurt people with it instead of just preserving.

An unsealed metalmind doesn't let you do things the power itself can't do, it just gives you access to it, so I doubt anything that works similarly would do that, personally.

Edited March 15, 2021 by LewsTherinTelescope

[+robardin]

On 3/14/2021 at 4:19 PM, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Actually, Kelsier held the Shard fully. He just couldn’t access all the power. ...

His bigger problem was that the Shard HATED him. It’s one of the reasons I recommend reading SH before RoW: it really helps explain what’s going on between Odium and Rayse.

I found that tidbit from RoW very interesting, because until then, we'd only heard via WoB that one of the reasons Rayse had gone a-Splinterin' instead of trying to absorb other Shards was because he felt Odium "suited him perfectly".

And all along, what the Shard really wanted was Mad, Sad, Glad To Be Bad Taravangian.

Edited March 15, 2021 by robardin

[mathiau]

2 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Rashek had a Physical body, for one thing, which was a major problem for Kel. Also, Rashek mostly used the power for the sake of Preserving. It refused to listen when he tried to destroy things. (Don't ask me why making the mistwraiths worked...)

They haven't been Destroyed they've been Remade which is something Preservation tolerate