Long Game 74: You Want It Darker

[Mailliw73]

1 hour ago, Elandera said:

"Hmm. This Elandera. Don't know her. You're as crazy as me it seems."

The metal is what matters right now. Yes. This time it's steel again. Always with the steel. 

Why does everyone want to go jumping around and jumping to conclusions?

They just need a bit more metal in their lives. It frees the mind.

Alright, cool, cool. 

1 hour ago, Illwei said:

I am no longer accepting arguments from Mailliw, as he has now seemingly resorted to using meta that he doesn't know smh. :P.

Is it illegal for me to decide to have a non-chaotic game? and what defines chaotic? :P. If you want to take the time to make a meta case against me, feel free to go back and read the games I've played. Everything since LG67 excluding MR43 and MR47 :).

Uh, okay... Apparently I need to explain my reasoning better than I have so at least your defense is based off of what i'm actually thinking. 

So. Illwei votes on Quinn, then retracts the vote and votes on Stick in the same post. I think that's weird, so I decide to put my vote on Illwei. I later learn through multiple PM conversations about Illwei that apparently that kind of voting is fairly normal for her, so now that voting reason is NAI to me. At the same time, the amount of tension and dialogue between Illwei and Quinn leads me to believe that one of the two dying would lead us to the most information and I'm leaning towards Illwei on that still if I had to pick. In addition, the more I look at the way Illwei has voted and the way Illwei has replied to Quinn, they feel like two different people. Like one is elim and the other is elim trying to play it off like village. So I'm leaving my vote. 

1 hour ago, Quintessential said:

I... ahhhh why am I doing this Illwei this feels like village!you and since my entire argument is based on meta... anyway.

Mailliw for... I'm not even sure. tbh I still haven't totally shaken the feeling that Maill is trying to pocket me, I guess. I have nothing else on anyone else. So. Yeah. There you go : P

Okay? Just cause we have a good PM going and I complimented your name doesn't mean I'm pocketing you. I complimented Gears's RP to start our PM, so idk how that's pocketing, but okay...

56 minutes ago, Fifth Scholar said:

- voting for Shard of Reading

- village reads: Stick, Maill, Quinn*, Araris, Elandera

Is Reading new? I thought they were, but I'm obviously out of the loop.

Yeah, why does Quinn have the asterisk?

11 minutes ago, STINK said:

i want u all to know im not reading these posts and u cant make me

Fair, I'll be honest, I only skim Fifth's. At least in this game but that's because there's a new page like every time I reload this. Like 4 or 5 posts each from Illwei and Quinn every time.

[Biplet]

The chatter in the tavern sat at a low rumble. No one knew what to make of the situation. Sara didn't either, she supposed. She'd caught more than one suspicious glance thrown the direction of people who would otherwise be friendly. Paranoia made an enemy of even the closest brothers.

She poured herself a pint.

-0-

Okay I'm going to be the new guy and say it's very hard to make a vote decision when half the reasoning in the thread is based on previous games and playstyles. Is that something that happens a lot here? 

Regardless, Illwei. Not totally sure what to make of that whole argument, but all of it was very suspicious. Unless y'all are both incredible at faking arguments, I don't see both of you being elim. But ah, anything could happen.

[STINK]

1 minute ago, Biplet said:

when half the reasoning in the thread is based on previous games and playstyles. Is that something that happens a lot here? 

if u throw the word meta around long enough when voting for someone then anything goes eventually

 

[Araris Valerian]

1 minute ago, Biplet said:

Okay I'm going to be the new guy and say it's very hard to make a vote decision when half the reasoning in the thread is based on previous games and playstyles. Is that something that happens a lot here? 

It happens a lot on the first day when nobody actually has any idea what they are doing. Honestly, my opinion on the D1 vote is you don't need reasoning to vote. Rather, basically all votes should be fine until an argument against  them is presented..

[Ashbringer]

Generally Elim teams are never all one "group". Some newer players (either just-joined new or only-a-few-games new) and some more experienced players. I wouldn't be surprised if for this game it's also split between newer, mid-gen, and the much older players.

That being said, I really don't like trying to out-meta the Elim team distribution. It works, but 1) it's really sucky for someone to get voted out for being experienced or inexperienced in lieu of actual evidence, (especially because experienced players also get more often fear-killed); and 2) I could definitely see some GMs making a small team with a lot of the experienced players or a large team without them (especially Kas with the former ).

So, pretty much any experience level can be an Elim. Basing suspicions on experience isn't the best without more things to be suspicious of, though.

 

That that being said, both the voters and the Elim kills usually have a unspoken rule of not killing new players or returning experienced players for the first 2-3 cycles. But this game has so many of both that that may prove difficult... and D1 votes are usually guided by these and other meta-reasons anyways.

Aaaand this topic is a page old already. Oh well.

[---]

1 minute ago, Biplet said:

Okay I'm going to be the new guy and say it's very hard to make a vote decision when half the reasoning in the thread is based on previous games and playstyles. Is that something that happens a lot here? 

Unfortunately yes, fut fortunately for you, Mailliw knows nothing about me, and has yet figured out how to somehow construct a meta argument about me :P. I believe in you :P.

This is, however, where I get frustrated at how there is no reason for people to vote either Quinn or Me. it's not a thunderdome. there are 25 other players (excluding you, you being the reader of this) and yet people get stuck on those things :))).

4 minutes ago, Mailliw73 said:

In addition, the more I look at the way Illwei has voted and the way Illwei has replied to Quinn, they feel like two different people. Like one is elim and the other is elim trying to play it off like village.

...cool? I donno how to defend against...that...so...coolio. you do you :P.

I didn't like how you jumped on me, and how your reasoning has shifted. It feels more like you're looking for a reason to kill me and stay on me, rather than actually trying to either find villagers or find Elims.

I love how I seem to be at the top of your mind, very flattering :P. but do you have any other thoughts? You shade Quinn in your post I see. That's not a point for me seeing you as village :P.
--
Quinn has almost 60 posts guys. I don't even have 30, and I'm second highest poster :P.

[Biplet]

1 minute ago, Illwei said:

This is, however, where I get frustrated at how there is no reason for people to vote either Quinn or Me. it's not a thunderdome. there are 25 other players (excluding you, you being the reader of this) and yet people get stuck on those things :))).

Bit defensive, really. Point two for me to keep my vote on you. Anyway, there are 25 other players, yet I know nothing about any of them. All information I can gather is based on this thread, and the people who have posted the most are... well, you guessed it. Hard to make a judgement on someone who's done nothing other than some rp, or said they'll come back for discussion later ;).

My vote could change, but it's staying now. I have my reason to vote for you, so shrugs.

[Mat]

Miscellaneous:

-I see Illwei as village. They’re always defensive, their tone seems how I think their village tone is. They were a lot more panicked when elim, trust me :P. Not loving this exe.

-I also tentatively see Quinn as village.

-I have developed a gut against Maill, so that exists :P. And my trust of Stick has dissolved into paranoid trust.

-Tani I think could be evil

-Still think Striker is evil, so there :P.

-Biplet seems good 

[Quintessential]

Illwei apparently I'm not just going paranoid and tinfoiling your elimminess into existence, and other people see it too : P 

[Mailliw73]

7 minutes ago, Illwei said:

...cool? I donno how to defend against...that...so...coolio. you do you :P.

I didn't like how you jumped on me, and how your reasoning has shifted. It feels more like you're looking for a reason to kill me and stay on me, rather than actually trying to either find villagers or find Elims.

I love how I seem to be at the top of your mind, very flattering :P. but do you have any other thoughts? You shade Quinn in your post I see. That's not a point for me seeing you as village :P.
--
Quinn has almost 60 posts guys. I don't even have 30, and I'm second highest poster :P.

I mean yes my reasoning shifted, you posted more, so it would be more strange if my reasoning stayed the same. Maybe I am kinda tunneling though, idk. I'll see if I cant put forward a number 2 suspicion. 

Also what did I do to shade Quinn? 

And Mat, I think you're the fourth(?) person to day that your gut is pointing at me, so idk. Maybe I'm just really old and my playstyle is outdated. Idk what's causing all this gut stuff. Maybe it's lactose?

[Quintessential]

4 minutes ago, Mailliw73 said:

And Mat, I think you're the fourth(?) person to day that your gut is pointing at me, so idk. Maybe I'm just really old and my playstyle is outdated. Idk what's causing all this gut stuff. Maybe it's lactose?

I mean, I'm pretty sure for me it's just that you're so nice and also you happen to agree with me in my reads of... well, most people anyway so that just seems... off to me? XD so yeah, maybe it is outdated playstyle or something :P.

Edited February 27, 2021 by Quintessential

[STINK]

how many inactives do we have btw anyone know after 11 pages

[Mat]

12 minutes ago, Quintessential said:

Illwei apparently I'm not just going paranoid and tinfoiling your elimminess into existence, and other people see it too : P 

Did I ninja you? :P.

9 minutes ago, Mailliw73 said:

And Mat, I think you're the fourth(?) person to day that your gut is pointing at me, so idk. Maybe I'm just really old and my playstyle is outdated. Idk what's causing all this gut stuff. Maybe it's lactose?

Yeah idk either, hence why I waited so long to mention it. We’ll see. That’s my philosophy a lot of the time, especially D1  

Edit: @STINK I want to say... three, maybe four. I’d have to check my notes.

Edited February 27, 2021 by Matrim's Dice

[StrikerEZ]

5 minutes ago, Matrim's Dice said:

-Still think Striker is evil, so there :P.

Ouch, but that’s fair.

6 minutes ago, Matrim's Dice said:

Tani I think could be evil

I mean, yeah. I could see it. Could be a new player told to come in thread and act really new. Could also just be a new player with a very different play style. Also have to keep in mind that it’s not like they’ve never played mafia or anything before. They even said that they’ve played on other places before. Even if the way we do things here is a bit different, mafia is still mafia.

7 minutes ago, Matrim's Dice said:

Biplet seems good

I agree. Bippy does seem very good.

8 minutes ago, Matrim's Dice said:

 

-I see Illwei as village. They’re always defensive, their tone seems how I think their village tone is. They were a lot more panicked when elim, trust me :P. Not loving this exe.

I mean, Illwei seemed especially defensive in the last MR. and even ignoring that, her defensiveness now just feels...not necessary? Like, I can understand wanting to be defensive. If you’re being voted on, you want to defend yourself. But it just seems like she’s try to discredit people’s arguments against her rather than try and give reasoning for why they’re wrong. If that makes sense.

10 minutes ago, Matrim's Dice said:

I have developed a gut against Maill, so that exists :P.

Any reasoning why? Or is it just pure gut? It’s okay if it’s just pure gut.

7 minutes ago, Mailliw73 said:

And Mat, I think you're the fourth(?) person to day that your gut is pointing at me, so idk. Maybe I'm just really old and my playstyle is outdated. Idk what's causing all this gut stuff. Maybe it's lactose?

I think it’s that you’re an older player that none of the newest generation has interacted with. Older players that have been playing lately have at least played with the newer players, so even if the new players don’t get the older playerstyles, they can just say it’s that player’s quirk. I think a lot of the reaction to you so far is from you coming back after a hot minute.

[---]

2 minutes ago, Biplet said:

Bit defensive, really. Point two for me to keep my vote on you. Anyway, there are 25 other players, yet I know nothing about any of them. All information I can gather is based on this thread, and the people who have posted the most are... well, you guessed it. Hard to make a judgement on someone who's done nothing other than some rp, or said they'll come back for discussion later ;).

My problem isn't the fact that people are thinking it's a quinn/me thunderdome now, it's the fact that people wait this long to vote :P. When they do that, all it leaves is the few people who do vote in the beginning of the cycle to choose the wagons for the day.

This is something that I have brought up in way more than one game. And people still don't care to try and change it. It's like the Activity issue with the more someone talks the more you have reason to suspect them. If you don't pressure people earlier into the cycle, then no one has much reason to talk if they don't already want to. They might think that the more active people have it covered. or...idk.

But when that happens the Vote can solidify on villagers very quickly. LG73 and Gears and Mat were the two candidates on D1 from the very beginning. then it was me and Mat. :P.

And in a me/quinn thunderdome I always lose here, because I don't think Quinn is an Elim right now :). I can't come up with a case that people would follow because I don't believe in it :).

It's a meta problem that no one wants to try and fix, for however much people might say they do, just like the Activity killing thing :).

@STINK : @The Windrunner Supreme and @Daisy are the two players who haven't spoken yet. Burnt, Devo, and Ventyl all have one post, and Bard, Gears, TJ, and Ash all have 2. Maybe ash has three now.

[Mailliw73]

8 minutes ago, Quintessential said:

I mean, I'm pretty sure for me it's just that you're so nice and also you happen to agree with me in my reads of... well, most people anyway so that just seems... off to me? XD so yeah, maybe it is outdated playstyle or something :P.

Is niceness not a part of the games anymore? What happened to the Gentleman Killers title? I don't know why things have to be personal or aggressive. Whenever I played, those were always frowned upon strongly. 

2 minutes ago, StrikerEZ said:

I think it’s that you’re an older player that none of the newest generation has interacted with. Older players that have been playing lately have at least played with the newer players, so even if the new players don’t get the older playerstyles, they can just say it’s that player’s quirk. I think a lot of the reaction to you so far is from you coming back after a hot minute.

I agree, I think there's a generational shift that I missed.

[Mat]

Just now, Mailliw73 said:

Is niceness not a part of the games anymore? What happened to the Gentleman Killers title? I don't know why things have to be personal or aggressive. Whenever I played, those were always frowned upon strongly. 

I agree, I think there's a generational shift that I missed.

I would hope niceness is still part of the game- if not, something has changed since last week  

[Mailliw73]

2 minutes ago, Matrim's Dice said:

I would hope niceness is still part of the game- if not, something has changed since last week  

Yeah, I just think the amount of intensity or aggressiveness (even if coming from a good place or in a friendship) is increased from when I was active. Like Quinn and Illwei's back and forth is further than it would have gone a few years ago when I was around. 

Edit: So I probably come off to Quinn as very nice, when in my head that's the expectation still. 

Edited February 27, 2021 by Mailliw73

[Biplet]

6 minutes ago, Illwei said:

it's the fact that people wait this long to vote :P. When they do that, all it leaves is the few people who do vote in the beginning of the cycle to choose the wagons for the day.

I'd like to say that I came to the conclusion myself. I almost voted for Striker, who is my actual irl boyfriend. I waited a while to vote because I was going between you two and a third person, not because I was waiting for a bandwagon to jump on. Didn't feel comfortable throwing a vote to the void for no reason, especially considering tani did that and was immediately pressed for a reason. Not that that's a bad thing, but I would be uncomfortable with it. I wanted to collect my thoughts.

And I'm not sure why I'm being jumped on for this. I'm making my own decisions based on what feels right, and doing my best to be active while juggling exams, projects, and essays  

Edited February 27, 2021 by Biplet
For the :P

[StrikerEZ]

7 minutes ago, Illwei said:

My problem isn't the fact that people are thinking it's a quinn/me thunderdome now, it's the fact that people wait this long to vote :P. When they do that, all it leaves is the few people who do vote in the beginning of the cycle to choose the wagons for the day.

This is something that I have brought up in way more than one game. And people still don't care to try and change it. It's like the Activity issue with the more someone talks the more you have reason to suspect them. If you don't pressure people earlier into the cycle, then no one has much reason to talk if they don't already want to. They might think that the more active people have it covered. or...idk.

But when that happens the Vote can solidify on villagers very quickly. LG73 and Gears and Mat were the two candidates on D1 from the very beginning. then it was me and Mat. :P.

I just want to say: I think it’s okay to wait and vote until later in the game. Sure, you might be influenced by what other people did first. But at the same time...it’s D1. There’s not a whole lot to go off of at the start. It makes sense to want to wait and see what happened and then make a decision later in the game. And plus, we all know that half of these votes will probably change in the last hour of the turn anyway, as is the current trend of SE right now. I think you are getting far too defensive over something that isn’t as big as you think it is. Which, in general, I think a more reactionary, primarily defensive, attitude is an elim tell. Which is why my vote is remaining on you.

Edited February 27, 2021 by StrikerEZ
Typo

[---]

Apologies if you feel like I'm personally attacking you, I didn't mean to mean anything like that.

Illwei

[Biplet]

1 minute ago, Illwei said:

Apologies if you feel like I'm personally attacking you, I didn't mean to mean anything like that.

Illwei

Well that's a twist XD. Anyway, didn't feel like a personal attack. Just wanted to put it out there that I did come to my own conclusions lol

[Mailliw73]

5 minutes ago, Biplet said:

I'd like to say that I came to the conclusion myself. I almost voted for Striker, who is my actual irl boyfriend. I waited a while to vote because I was going between you two and a third person, not because I was waiting for a bandwagon to jump on. Didn't feel comfortable throwing a vote to the void for no reason, especially considering tani did that and was immediately pressed for a reason. Not that that's a bad thing, but I would be uncomfortable with it. I wanted to collect my thoughts.

And I'm not sure why I'm being jumped on for this. I'm making my own decisions based on what feels right, and doing my best to be active while juggling exams, projects, and essays  

Who's the third person? Now I'm curious. 

[Quintessential]

18 minutes ago, Matrim's Dice said:

Did I ninja you? :P.

Yes, you did 

8 minutes ago, Illwei said:

Apologies if you feel like I'm personally attacking you, I didn't mean to mean anything like that.

Illwei

Nope okay I can't do this anymore Illwei

I'm starting to wonder if I should just not vote for the first couple of cycles at this point...

[Gears]

[Future Gears here, I was rereading this post and realised that my tone was very snappish, and for that, I apologise. I do not mean to offend. I'm not even upset right now, so I don't know why the tone is so miffed here. Also, I was ninja'd a lot, so if any points have been rendered obsolete, ignore them]

OK, I've been trying to do a post-by-post, but it was eaten three times, so I concede. General opinions: Negative opinion of Books in hindsight, Illwei and Quinn both seem reasonably fine, Quinn's reasons are terrible [joking about being elim? Changing votes mid-post? The second one's happened before MR48], Maia's reasons are just about them arguing which happens a lot so means nothing, Striker's and Biplet's reasoning is that Illwei is frustrated about terrible reasoning which is also not very good reasoning. Illwei PoV: You're just being your regular self, and someone keeps saying you're elim-y because of ridiculous meta reasons, and then someone else who hasn't even played with you before cites those same meta reasons to vote for you, and then someone votes you for being frustrated about being voted on, and everything is locked between you and Quinn for some reason even though there's no reason for that. Why is anyone even voting Illwei? Defensiveness? Quinn, you're paranoid and tunneling. Give me a genuine reason for elim!Illwei that doesn't boil down to MR48. One cannot extrapolate a meta from a single data point. 

The only person I can remember being suspicious of is Flyingbooks for their Striker points [yes, this is an opinion change from earlier, them formulating an opinion after Stick's questioning was odd. Also, I'm voting D1? Wow. Maybe this is the Twilight Zone game]. Illwei and Quinn are being their standard selves [and if either of you are elim, I'll kill you later, but nothing so far has made me suspect you]. Let's let go of the meta reasons for now and consider what has happened here. It doesn't have to be a thunderdome. [And Fifth, my opinion change to match yours was concerning to me as well. People agreeing with me makes me nervous.] Quinn accused Illwei based on meta reasoning that does not hold water. Maia, unused to the chaos demon, voted on them as well. Quinn and Illwei have been arguing about tunneling and meta reasoning. They do that a lot. It's perfectly normal. 

Other points in the post-by-post that died a horrible, painful death: Striker is noted but not particularly suspicious, Stick seems fine, Ventyl claims seem fine as well, Maia is noted, Tani is noted but new, Order's earlier comments felt wrong for some reason, positive opinion of Fifth [though agreement makes me paranoid], the Game Master is always evil, 

*ninja'd by a million people*

Well thanks. I do think that people tend to frame things around the first votes, but that's mostly because there's far more discussion around the people being voted on than about anything else. We do have a tendency to trap ourselves in unnecessary cages. Let's try and avoid that. Why is it between Quinn and Illwei? Because they're arguing? Can two villagers not argue? I want everyone currently voting to lay out their reasons for voting in full detail and any other suspicions you currently possess. I'm voting Books because of their immediate formulation of an opinion on Striker after being pressed by Stick and their rejection of perfectly sound points. Other possible candidates: .....I don't really know. 

Illwei, are you OK? 

And Quinn just retracted, I'm sure a lot of my points are invalidated by that, so I'm going to hit post before another million ninjas make me commit seppuku.

Edited February 27, 2021 by Gears