[Theory] Taln Wasn't the Herald Who Broke; It Was Chanarach

[RShara she/her]

7 hours ago, teknopathetic said:

It is unclear how the Stormfather would know this, considering as he just kind of barely  recognized Ash and Taln when they showed up again. I see your point, but the Stormfather is far from reliable. 

I'd be hesitant to say he's wrong when he makes definitive statements like this. He usually will admit when he doesn't know something.

[teknopathetic he/him]

11 hours ago, RShara said:

I'd be hesitant to say he's wrong when he makes definitive statements like this. He usually will admit when he doesn't know something.

Until we know how we would know< i think it is still possible this theory is correct. The Stormfather wasn't mentioned to have felt the true-death of a herald or anything like that, so it is unclear if the Stormfather would sense a herald dying a Braize-style death. Maybe the Stormfather assumed he would have heard if a Herald had died since for most desolations that news travelled fast.

[Guest]

I think the question is how the Stormfather would have found out. We know he can see everything in his storm, that he has a confused set of memories and that he talks to the other spren like the Honor spren sometimes. I'm not aware of him gathering info any other way.

1. He couldn't have gotten the information the first way because there's no reason given to suggest Shallan's mother died in a storm.

2. There's no reason why he would know that Shallan's mother would die from his memories

3.There's no reason to believe any sapient, non-deadeyed spren saw Shallan's mother dying.

4. We also know that the Herald's can hide that they are Heralds from regular people and even the secret societies. That means, even if the Stormfather heard about her death, he could have heard something about a woman in the secret societies dying.

5. We also have solid evidence to suggest none of the Herald's would have found out via the Oathpact (assuming Shallan's mother is Chanarach) and there's no statement suggesting the Stormfather is more connected to any of the Heralds than the other Heralds are.

6. We know the Stormfather isn't Honor so he can't know things and be everywhere like a Shard can.

So... unless I'm missing something there's no good reason why the Stormfather would know that Chanarach died if she did in fact do so. 

Edited May 6, 2021 by DougTheRug

[Isilel]

My problem with this theory is that Shallan isn't an only child, but one of 5 and the other 4, who are her full siblings, are fairly undistinguished. Nor does it explain why a Herald would have chosen to marry Lin Davar, of all people, and pop out 5 kids in quick succession. The only connection between Chana and Shallan is that both have red hair if the picture is to be trusted, but that's not enough, surely?

Concerning "mother's soul" shining in the safe, now that we know about liitle Shallan's interaction with a Seon, this is what it likely alludes to.

As to Lady Davar's secrets, I now suspect that she was the first Ghostblood in this family. And that her attack on Shallan was an attempt to force her daughter to demonstrate her abilities for an associate. Veil's experience may not have been completely fictious, after all - Shallan may have been groomed into a Ghostblood operative by her mother.

[teknopathetic he/him]

On 2021-05-06 at 3:37 PM, Isilel said:

My problem with this theory is that Shallan isn't an only child, but one of 5 and the other 4, who are her full siblings, are fairly undistinguished.

All 3 of surviving children seem to be touched in some way - who knows about Heleran. Who knows what they boys were capable of if they had broke in different ways. 

[Isilel]

On 9.5.2021 at 7:38 PM, teknopathetic said:

All 3 of surviving children seem to be touched in some way - who knows about Heleran. Who knows what they boys were capable of if they had broke in different ways. 

How is this different from normal damaged people who do or don't become Radiants? You postulated that child of a Herald would be something like a child of a Returned and that was the reason for Cryptics' attraction to Shallan. Except that Shallan had 4 siblings who were ignored and weren't special. In Warbreaker the whole Idrian royal family has the same abilities derived from their heritage. What is more, there is supposed to be some difficulty with Heralds procreating, but Lady Davar popped out 5(!) kids in fairly quick succession. And why would a Herald chose to have a ton of kids, who'd all die in the blink of an eye from her perspective?

Not to mention that a Herald, of all people, would have known that a Radiant might summon their spren as a shardblade and couldn't be easily killed with a knife.

There is also the fact that Tien was only a couple years older than Shallan when he began to attract a Cryptic, so I am not sure why she needed to have some special background? Spren picking children to bond may have been the result of Skybreaker persecution, for instance, since it would have been harder to pin crimes that warrant an execution on them.

The appearance of Radiant might have been inspired by religious ikons of Chanarach, but I don't see why it should prove any biological connection. Also, didn't  Radiant become blonde at some point?

From one of your earlier posts:

Quote

Shallan goes to the garden to scream at Testament and break her bond AFTER Testament is supposedly locked away in the safe. This timeline does not make sense even if we believe Testament could escape the safe. Why does Shallan believe her spren was trapped but also then in the garden? And how is Testament-blade = her mother's soul? There isn't a connection there logically. 

Well, of course Testament escaped the safe - that's what Shallan concluded back when she still thought that it was Pattern. Now that we know about the Seon, it is much more likely that it was the entity that remained in the safe (maybe Lin tried to stick Testament in the same box?) and also what little Shallan equated with her mother's soul. It all got muddled in her mind due to selective amnesia and trauma.

Why Davars of all people were involved with all of this is still a mystery, of course.  I suspect that there is a connection between them and one of the Unmade, due either to location or to family history. That may have made them interesting to the Ghostbloods and other secret societies. 

Finally, Taln may or may not not have been responsible for the current Desolation, but I always found the notion that just because he had never broken before Aharietam he never would, to be completely illogical. That's how it works with everything, doesn't it? It wears out until it breaks. Nothing is imprevious.

I am also not sure why the Last Desolation needs to be pinned on Shallan, when we know that Venli was already largely involved and that she was manipulated into it at a fairly young age.

[Aleph-Naught he/him]

Unless something changed dramatically on Braize in the intervening 8 years after this flashback takes place (such as, as this thread's hypothesis posits, another Herald shows up on Braize after being killed), the following exchange between Ulim and Venli seems to be pretty solid evidence that Taln did not break, and that the Everstorm was created to circumvent the Oathpact out of a concern that Taln would never break:

Quote

...“Ulim,” she whispered, “when will the other Voidspren be ready?”

Can’t say for certain, he replied. That stupid Herald is still standing strong all these years later. We have to work around him.

“The new storm,” Venli whispered.

Yes. It’s been building in Shadesmar for centuries...

-Rhythm of War, Chapter 73, "Which Master To Follow"

Edited May 12, 2021 by Aleph-Naught

[teknopathetic he/him]

17 hours ago, Aleph-Naught said:

Unless something changed dramatically on Braize in the intervening 8 years after this flashback takes place (such as, as this thread's hypothesis posits, another Herald shows up on Braize after being killed), the following exchange between Ulim and Venli seems to be pretty solid evidence that Taln did not break, and that the Everstorm was created to circumvent the Oathpact out of a concern that Taln would never break:

-Rhythm of War, Chapter 73, "Which Master To Follow"

In terms of timelines, Taln returns before the Everstorm, so that doesn’t make a lot of sense. We don’t know how the Everstorm could have caused a Herald to return, so I say we wait. 
 

As well, we have no idea how Ulim was able to get intelligence from Braize after he was freed. 
 

it’s hard to say who knew what 

[Halyo_Alex he/him]

2 hours ago, teknopathetic said:

As well, we have no idea how Ulim was able to get intelligence from Braize after he was freed. 

I have a hilarious mental image of him just hanging out near the braize border and just listening to Fused shouting through the barrier storm like some game of Telephone.

[Aleph-Naught he/him]

4 hours ago, teknopathetic said:

...As well, we have no idea how Ulim was able to get intelligence from Braize after he was freed. 

Most jails/prisons have telephones.

[Frustration]

9 hours ago, Aleph-Naught said:

Most jails/prisons have telephones.

Most prisions aren't entire planets surrounded by an impasable storm barrier.

[Aleph-Naught he/him]

39 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Most prisions aren't entire planets surrounded by an impasable storm barrier.

To keep the metaphor going, you'd be surprised: to most people inside a prison, it is their whole world--it may as well be an entire planet--and it definitely has an impassable "storm" barrier, of guards and automatic weapons.

Edited May 13, 2021 by Aleph-Naught

[Jofwu he/him]

On 5/6/2021 at 5:37 PM, Isilel said:

Concerning "mother's soul" shining in the safe, now that we know about liitle Shallan's interaction with a Seon, this is what it likely alludes to.

I was really intrigued by this idea, but looking back through the "mother's soul" references in WoR I think there are far too many things equating it directly with the sword itself. Pattern even corrects her at some point. It reads to me like young Shallan imagines the sword stole her mother's soul, and served as a sort of container for it.

[silver-the-ridgerunner he/him]

This is the Way. 

Edited July 7, 2021 by silver-the-thruhiker

[Use the Falchion]

Definitely a fan of the theory! I'm not sure how much I believe it, but I'll add it to my list of fun theories to keep an eye out for in future rereads!

(Also the way this uses a Death Rattle is a super cool one, and one that I hadn't thought of before. Awesome!)

[Halyo_Alex he/him]

On 2/2/2021 at 3:51 PM, Halyo_Alex said:

I both admire and hate the fact that I can totally see this being true... But at the same time, I can't help but wonder if I'm just grasping at straws.

Why is this even getting upvoted, I literally just said something so that I would have a message in here for no reason at all. It was just for kicks. Stop agreeing with my meaningless noise.

[mathiau he/him]

5 hours ago, Halyo_Alex said:

Why is this even getting upvoted, I literally just said something so that I would have a message in here for no reason at all. It was just for kicks. Stop agreeing with my meaningless noise.

Your meaningless noise is funny

[KandraAllomancer he/him]

Taln not breaking has just been confirmed!

Quote

Questioner

Taln. Did he actually ever give up? Or was it... Did he just get released when...?

Brandon Sanderson

You will find out, but Taln did not break. You'll find out how it happened, but Taln did not break.

JordanCon 2021 (July 16, 2021)

 

[Honorless he/him]

Confirmation that Taln did not break

Quote

Questioner

Taln. Did he actually ever give up? Or was it... Did he just get released when...?

Brandon Sanderson

You will find out, but Taln did not break. You'll find out how it happened, but Taln did not break.

JordanCon 2021 (July 16, 2021)

Edit: ninja'ed!

Edited July 21, 2021 by Honorless

[teknopathetic he/him]

4 hours ago, Honorless said:

Confirmation that Taln did not break

Edit: ninja'ed!

Thank you for this! I knew he could not have broken!

So either:

1. The Everstorm somehow brute forced the Oathpact in the Oathpact's weakened state, and Fused were allowed through without a Herald quitting. 
2. Another Herald Broke and the Everstorm was put into place after that to make this desolation the last one
3. Something we cant guess right now. 

Personally, I don't think Odium could return the Fused without a herald breaking. Sure, he could restore the Parshendi Singers, but I don't believe he could get the Fused to Roshar without the Oathpact being broken by someone (and that someone is not Taln). 

Edited July 21, 2021 by teknopathetic

[mathiau he/him]

Just now, teknopathetic said:

Thank you for this! I knew he could not have broken!

So either:

1. The Everstorm somehow brute forced the Oathpact in the the Oathpact's weakened state and Fused were allowed through. 
2. Another Herald Broke and the Everstorm was put into place after that to make this desolation the last one
3. Something we cant guess right now. 

 

Personally, I don't think Odium could return the Fused without a herald breaking. Sure, he could restore the Parshendi Singers, but I don't believe he could get the Fused to Roshar without the Oathpact being broken by someone (and that someone is not Taln). 

According to Rlain it's probably more than one thing

[Use the Falchion]

1 minute ago, teknopathetic said:

Thank you for this! I knew he could not have broken!

So either:

1. The Everstorm somehow brute forced the Oathpact in the Oathpact's weakened state, and Fused were allowed through without a Herald quitting. 
2. Another Herald Broke and the Everstorm was put into place after that to make this desolation the last one
3. Something we cant guess right now. 

Personally, I don't think Odium could return the Fused without a herald breaking. Sure, he could restore the Parshendi Singers, but I don't believe he could get the Fused to Roshar without the Oathpact being broken by someone (and that someone is not Taln). 

There's a theory on Reddit right now that Gavilar actually took the place of a Herald, and that's how he got to Braise IIRC. Either his assassination or a previous journey before then let him get to Braise again, but this time as a Herald, where he was either found, tortured, and gave up or simply gave up from the start; and that kickstarted the Desolation. 

But the full theory is in the link below.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Stormlight_Archive/comments/ooe5hr/cosmerenew_wob_gavilar_the_oathpact_and_the/

[teknopathetic he/him]

20 minutes ago, Use the Falchion said:

There's a theory on Reddit right now that Gavilar actually took the place of a Herald, and that's how he got to Braise IIRC. Either his assassination or a previous journey before then let him get to Braise again, but this time as a Herald, where he was either found, tortured, and gave up or simply gave up from the start; and that kickstarted the Desolation. 

But the full theory is in the link below.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Stormlight_Archive/comments/ooe5hr/cosmerenew_wob_gavilar_the_oathpact_and_the/

Oh, interesting! I too think Gavilar is not dead-dead, but I had not thought of that. Could it both perhaps? Gavilar goes, Shallan's mother dies and then agrees to swap with Gavilar? 

----

For the Shallan's mother theory, we do now have another nod that non-returned cognitive shadows have had children, and we don't have many options for who those Shadows may be. Not proof, but making it more plausible that Shallan has a herald for a mother. 

Kingsdaughter613

I wanted to know if any of the non-Returned Cognitive Shadows have had children?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Edited July 21, 2021 by teknopathetic

[mathiau he/him]

20 minutes ago, teknopathetic said:

However, we do have another nod that non-returned cognitive shadows have had children, and we don't have many options for who those Shadows may be. Not proof, but making it more plausible that Shallan has a herald for a mother. 

Kingsdaughter613

I wanted to know if any of the non-Returned Cognitive Shadows have had children?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

He could be talking about the pre-Evil Threnodite shadows

[+Oltux72 he/him]

On 13.5.2021 at 1:52 AM, teknopathetic said:

In terms of timelines, Taln returns before the Everstorm, so that doesn’t make a lot of sense. We don’t know how the Everstorm could have caused a Herald to return, so I say we wait. 

To be tortured to save a whole world is one thing. To suffer it after the scheme designed to render your actions moot is sure to be soon implemented is another far less desirable thing.

In addition, as far as he knew the Rosharans needed to be warned. All you need to explain this is for Taln to be able to sense the coming Everstorm. That is plausible. Many Spren were able to do so. In fact the Stormfather had started talking to Gavilar.

On 13.5.2021 at 1:52 AM, teknopathetic said:

As well, we have no idea how Ulim was able to get intelligence from Braize after he was freed. 

The same way Raboniel got her answers within a few hours? Why would the exact method matter?

On 13.5.2021 at 1:52 AM, teknopathetic said:

it’s hard to say who knew what 

Well, the basic problem remains. Testament bonded Shallan before Shallan killed her mother. Yet the bond is supposed to have triggered the killings. And these bonds were supposed to be a recent development in response to a looming Desolation. There is a basic contradiction.

1 hour ago, mathiau said:

He could be talking about the pre-Evil Threnodite shadows

Or Thaidakar. We are talking about hundreds of years and a public figure with a large number of admirers. Frankly, this is nigh inevitable.