Unpopular Rhythm of War opinions

[Frustration]

3 hours ago, Procrastination Shard said:

Right then and right there, this is generally agreed to be the meaning of challenging someone to a duel and then immediately drawing your weapon and approaching the other.

This is also why Dalinar immediately steps between the two of them to defuse the situation and why Ruthar demands he steps aside and stops intefereing with the duel. They're doing it right there and then.

Then Wit admited defeat by stepping out of the duel. Otherwise they hadn't started when Jasnah took the sword from him. You can't change the conditions of a duel mid-fight, that's not how it works.

[Frustration]

2 minutes ago, Procrastination Shard said:

He did no such thing, he requested his desire to bring in a champion to take his place and Ruthar agreed. He never surrendered.

So they are still in the phase where they can dicuss condiitons, otherwise, no you cannot.

2 minutes ago, Procrastination Shard said:

You can if your opponent agrees to it, which Ruthar did. He fight then began immediately as they had just agreed.

Did he ever say "let's start now?" No.

Drawing a weapon isn't enough, in bascially every duel you start with weapons drawn, and you have a judge begin the match. When did that happen?

[Frustration]

5 minutes ago, Procrastination Shard said:

You can, I have listed two examples of this happening on Roshar itself.

Where did it ever happen?

5 minutes ago, Procrastination Shard said:

He didn't have to, everyone in the tent knew exactly what was about to happen. A great deal of human communication is non verbal, not everything is explicitly said. We infer a great deal of information during interactions.

Dalinar stepped between them so obviously it has not gotten to the point where Ruthar can no longer back out, therefore the duel has not started.

5 minutes ago, Procrastination Shard said:

As you yourself note this doesn't happen in every duel and you don't have to do it. They agreed not to. This isn't all that unusual.

On our world it's almost every duel.

On Roshar every duel we've seen has a judge.

5 minutes ago, Procrastination Shard said:

Why would they even need a judge for a duel to the death?

Duels to the death actually are more likely to have judges because telling combatants when to start is that much more improtant.

Edited May 28, 2022 by Frustration

[Frustration]

5 minutes ago, Procrastination Shard said:

Isn't is suggested for Adolin to back out of the duel with the 4 Shardbearers immediately and then he refuses to do so? There seems no indication at all that one can't back out of a duel mid duel, you yourself early suggested that Wit may have backed out of it himself before hand showing this possibility.

Doing so would be to forefeit, not a simple termination.

6 minutes ago, Procrastination Shard said:

I'm not sure if this is true, the only duels we've seen with a judge are ones in WoR during Adolin's attempt to gather Shards. We know that Shardbearers have duels with each other in the battlefield and it is doubtful they would wait for a judge and negotiate official terms on who owns the Shards if someone dies in the middle of a war zone, indeed the one example we have of this example; Dalinar vs Eshoni, they both just start wailing on each other.

I can't tell if you are being intentionally dishonest here. They might be called "duels" but they are in reality 1 vs 1's. A duel is combat in a formalized setting with established rules.

7 minutes ago, Procrastination Shard said:

On the mention of other duels though a great many of the ones seen contradict what you think should have happened, the duel between Dalinar and Aratin does not end with Dalinar yielding or the judge calling it to end but both contestants end it without question and no one stops them,

You mean when Dalinar slapped his hand on the padding, conceding that Aratin won?

8 minutes ago, Procrastination Shard said:

during the duel between Dalinar and Kadash it is noted that many of the duels happening around them have both combatants stop in order to listen to their conversation, this is presumably not standard practice to end duels that way.

Those were sparing matches, not duels.

10 minutes ago, Procrastination Shard said:

The duel itself also does not end in any formal way but instead with Dalinar simply choosing to walk away, Kadash even notes there was an invalid strike during the duel but they keep going regardless, there is also no mention of a judge over seeing the duel as surely they would have separated them after the invalid strike instead of needing Kadash to point it out.

Again sparring match.

11 minutes ago, Procrastination Shard said:

The duel between Dalinar and Fen's son also has the details renegotiated only after both parties already step into the ring, it is also noted that a scribe is sent to count the time for the battle but to not judge it, in fact they make no rulings the entire duel and are only referenced at a time keeper, they don't even intervene to give a ruling when Dalinar and Fen argue if the duel is over or not.

That still counts.

12 minutes ago, Procrastination Shard said:

But they had already agreed on that, as well as that no one wanted a judge so why would they need one? There is nothing for them to judge, it is fairly clear who would win a duel to the death.

Judges are there to begin the duel, not to declair a victor.

[Treamayne]

3 hours ago, Frustration said:

Things

and

3 hours ago, Procrastination Shard said:

Stuff

What exactly is the root of this disagreement? I'm not sure I can follow what is in contention - whether or not that scene was really a "duel" that could result in Ruthar's exile?

Edited May 28, 2022 by Treamayne

[SymphonianBookworm]

By the way, Dalinar tries to convince Ruthar to not duel, but actually, instead of him convincing Ruthar to not, actually, it only provokes Ruthar further.

[Letryx13]

21 hours ago, Frustration said:

Tell me where the agreed start time was?

Saying "Shall we?" does sounds very much like an invitation to begin the duel, after which Ruthar says "Fine.", a clear acceptance.  I agree there is some nuance there since after that Wit said he wanted to use a champion, but still.

6 hours ago, Procrastination Shard said:

From what I gather that is essentially it, whether the duel actually counts as a duel by Rosharan standards.

Dalinar himself admits nothing illegal is going on during all of this.

9 hours ago, Procrastination Shard said:

Where are you getting this from? It seems many people just end duels or contestants whenever, there is nothing indicating you can't back out.

I think Elhokar mentions to Dalinar that if Adolin pulls out of that duel he forfeits all the Shards he wagered, so it does seem like the only options are to fight or forfeit.

9 hours ago, Procrastination Shard said:

This never happens, it ends when Navani coughs and calls for Dalinar at which point Aratin lets go of him and walks off. He even thinks to himself that he should have tapped out.

There's no official winner of that contest, but Dalinar does give a mark of respect indicating he considers Aratin the victor.

11 hours ago, Frustration said:

Then Wit admited defeat by stepping out of the duel. Otherwise they hadn't started when Jasnah took the sword from him. You can't change the conditions of a duel mid-fight, that's not how it works.

Technically, you can.  The duel with Adolin and Kaladin in the arena was inspired by a duel Sadeus had.  In that duel, Sadeus paused the fighting several times to up the stakes in order to create a bigger spectacle to earn the right of challenge from Gavilar. 

Though to be fair, you have a point. Wit did say he accepted the trial by combat, then asked Ruthar, "Shall we?", and  only after Ruthar accepted did he say he wanted to use a champion. That does seem like the sort of thing you'd need to say before inviting the start of the duel.  He probably only said it to make sure the duel happened then and there, but without knowing Alethi laws regarding duels (which I'd bet aren't clear) there's no real way to say for sure.

3 hours ago, SymphonianBookworm said:

By the way, Dalinar tries to convince Ruthar to not duel, but actually, instead of him convincing Ruthar to not, actually, it only provokes Ruthar further.

I don't think it provoked him further. Ruthar paused when Dalinar spoke. I think it's more that the conversation just gave him a chance to vent a lot of grievances he felt.

11 hours ago, Procrastination Shard said:

He did no such thing, he requested his desire to bring in a champion to take his place and Ruthar agreed. He never surrendered.

He probably should have said that he wanted to call a champion before inviting Ruthar to begin, but I agree. I don't think that would be enough to invalidate the duel.

[Harbour]

I just finished rereading SA, and i came to realization through the analyze of my feels and thoughts, that i dont enjoy Sanderson sanderlanches as much as i thought i did.

What i enjoy the most in SA are the highlight moments (like Kaladin jumping on arena to help Adolin), AND, MASSIVELY, OVERWHELMINGLY, the slow plot.

WoK is the only book where i IMMENSELLY enjoyed the sanderlanche. I think the core my enjoyement based off was the fact that Culmination wasnt the battle itself or Sadeas betrayal, or else, but Kaladin deciding to help lighteyes, and Dalinar freeing them in excange for the shardblade. The way story was told, this culmination felt deeply satusfying and delivering the awe.

Meanwhile the daily life and struggles and mini victories of Bridge 4 were the bread and butter for me. The character dynamics and twists were written extremely well and thoughtfull.

WoR and Oathbringer were very much the same. Sanderlanches there felt very chaotic, the constant changes of PoV harmed the experience. But also the very essence of the lances there were pretty simple and shallow. None of Shallan scene there resonated with me, and even Kaladin scenes were Culminated in him fighting and beating the BAD GUY.

And while Kaladin vs Szeth started off epically, it boiled down to Dragonball Z fight in the sky, that didnt feel that much epic. In the very end it felt just like beating some mini-boss in the RPG, not less, not more.

Meanwhile the daily life and struggles of Kaladin and Shallan were extremely fun to read. Both felt, again, full of soul and written brilliantly. I could have read 200 more pages of Kaladin captaining as Kholins' bodyguard. I could have read 200 more pages of protagonist trio infiltrating the capital city.

Same with RoW, except for i didnt enjoy both components here in the same degree as in previous books.

Edited August 2, 2022 by Harbour

[KaladinWorldsinger]

1 hour ago, Harbour said:

WoK is the only book where i IMMENSELLY enjoyed the sanderlanche. I think the core my enjoyement based off was the fact that Culmination wasnt the battle itself or Sadeas betrayal, or else, but Kaladin deciding to help lighteyes, and Dalinar freeing them in excange for the shardblade. The way story was told, this culmination felt deeply satusfying and delivering the awe.

Oof yes. WoK has the best ending i have ever read in my limited book reading experience. Nothing has topped that. While not an ending, WoR has a scene very similar at the arena battle which is my fav scene in that book, not the ending. OB ending was carried hard by Dalinar, both kal and shallan did not make me feel much...

RoW was same, but mainly because I thought ressurecting tien was cringy. If not maybe I would have  liked it. What I loved about the row sanderlanche was.... Todium.

[Duxredux]

I just finished Aether of Night, and I enjoyed that barely edited book more than I enjoyed Rhythm of War. This might be an unpopular Stormlight Archive opinion but...

How do I put this... It's been a long time since Brandon has done anything standalone in the Cosmere (which is why I'm really excited for the Secret Projects), and... I realized that I miss seeing happy endings for my Cosmere friends. If feels like it's been a long, long time since I've read anything from Brandon where I wasn't worried about someone trying to nuke the planet in the next book. Book 4 of a 10 book series, for obvious reasons I wasn't expecting a happy ending, but I don't think I really needed 3-4 years to have Todium hanging over my head. Yes, I know that this cast deals with mental health, and yes I know they are in a war, but I just want at least some of my Cosmere friends to actually be happy with their life without a sense of dread gnawing at them at the end of a book every once in a while (and yes there have been books like this, and I like them more. I'm more likely to reread them at least). Brandon's good enough that I'll still read every single new book that he comes out with, I'll even go back and read his "unpublishable" Cosmere works to get even a bit of a better glimpse into the Cosmere, so I really wish he would stop giving massive world/universe imperiling reveals at the end of his books when it will be years before we see the next installment. Brandon is good enough of a writer that I will suffer it and come back for more of his work, but... I've considered just stopping right after the main Sanderlanche at the end and just opting out of all of the doomsday theorizing regarding the last few chapters until the next book comes out. At least I'd put down the book with a smile. If Brandon didn't leave a killer cliffhanger at the end of every book, I will still come back and read his next one. Coming from him, it feels a bit cheap in that he doesn't need to write those cliffhangers to get people to read the next one, and I wonder if he takes just a bit too much delight in the torment of the fans.

I wish Brandon would write more like one of his (and my) favorite authors, Terry Pratchett, who had a massive collection of books set in the Discworld, but you could pretty much pick up any book and read it and bask in Pratchett's genius, because Pratchett was just that good of a writer that nearly everything he put out was fantastic. There were large scale changes in the Discworld, and there were certain story arcs that progressed chronologically over several books that focused on specific casts, but each book was self-contained. I think originally Brandon intended for the Cosmere to function so that anyone who happened to stumble onto one of his series could read it and not get too lost, but it seems that has been becoming less and less of the case as well, we as fans have been pestering him to know what is going on at the big Cosmere-level story. I know Brandon's trying to finish his own Wheel of Time but... I've tried to finish Wheel of Time 3 different times, with physical, digital, and audio copies, and I just can't bring myself to care about the nth new viewpoint character that has no relation to the main cast that I can remember (though there probably is one). There is genius and a draw to the massive scale of the Cosmere and how interconnected the planets, peoples, and magic systems are, but... somewhere in me wonders if Brandon and many of his fans would actually be happier if we got more self-contained novels that exhibited Brandon's genius with magic system building in a bunch of different worlds over him trying to do a massive epic fantasy to rival the Wheel of Time, the ordeal that is the Stormlight Archive, considering I know that they are an ordeal for Dragonsteel and for Brandon himself. It's hard to recommend a series to someone by saying "the writer's fantastic, the characters are compelling, it's just going to be another 20 years before you get closure, that's all."

Thanks for reading my rant. I loved the Dog and the Dragon, and I'm glad Brandon wrote Rhythm of War.

Edited August 3, 2022 by Duxredux

[Mr. Misting]

The first time I read the book every chapter felt like the same thing from each character. Each character's issues felt like the entire point of their chapters and I didn't get time to enjoy what I liked about them. And to break things up it was just Kaladin chasing nodes. I still really like this book it was just a hard read first time through.

[Hyarmenatan]

On 14.02.2021 at 9:49 AM, Hoiditthroughthegrapevine said:

I really don't like the Kaladin establishing a mental health system angle of RoW. It all seems a bit too pat, a bit too schlocky. 

damn, this is too native. No idea what you mean as a non-native speaker.

[Frustration]

21 minutes ago, Hyarmenatan said:

damn, this is too native. No idea what you mean as a non-native speaker.

I'm a native speaker and I barely understand it.

From what I get it feels to contrived to be natural.

[Lego Mistborn]

19 hours ago, Hyarmenatan said:

damn, this is too native. No idea what you mean as a non-native speaker.

Basically the person doesn't like Kal discovering the practice of mental medicine, because it's too nice and easy.

[Treamayne]

22 hours ago, Frustration said:

I'm a native speaker and I barely understand it.

From what I get it feels to contrived to be natural.

3 hours ago, Ta'veren Kaladin said:

Basically the person doesn't like Kal discovering the practice of mental medicine, because it's too nice and easy.

Well, if you go and read the full post (page 4) that was excerpted from there is more explanation and context. @Ta'veren Kaladin summed it up, but it amounts to:

- If "Wisdom of the Heralds" has handed down concepts like santitation for regular medicine and that has persisted for 4000 yrs, how are we expected to believe that nobody before Kaladin ever developed any mental health practices in that time (or that the Heralds didn't bring those concepts with them too)

It's the values dissonance that the subplot exists only to give something for Kaladin to do while recovering from his own problems and find that "helping myself helps me protect others"

I'm not saying I agree with the original post, but I think the points deserve consideration. 

 

[cometaryorbit]

51 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

Well, if you go and read the full post (page 4) that was excerpted from there is more explanation and context. @Ta'veren Kaladin summed it up, but it amounts to:

- If "Wisdom of the Heralds" has handed down concepts like santitation for regular medicine and that has persisted for 4000 yrs, how are we expected to believe that nobody before Kaladin ever developed any mental health practices in that time (or that the Heralds didn't bring those concepts with them too)

It's the values dissonance that the subplot exists only to give something for Kaladin to do while recovering from his own problems and find that "helping myself helps me protect others"

I have similar objections, but not for exactly the same reasons. The visibility of rotspren lets Rosharans discover what herbs etc work against infections without needing to actually understand germ theory. So their understanding physical medicine better than mental health actually makes sense in world.

But even if we accept an early germ theory level of medical knowledge for Roshar... early psychiatry on Earth was really primitive & often pretty harmful. It would still mean Kaladin has jumped something like 100-150 years of development in a year all by himself.

I don't think it's just giving something for Kaladin to do though... Roshar in general, or at least the Alethi/Urithiru, seem to be advancing excessively fast. Jasnah's social changes, Navani's technology, Kaladin's mental health stuff etc.

Now great crises can lead to rapid development (eg WWII) but this seems too much even for that. It's only been, what, a year and a half since the Everstorm arrived? For most of WOK/WOR there was no obvious disruption to most of the world. And WWII happened in a time when science was well established, whereas Rosharan science and magitech is pretty early days.

And in Well of Ascension Elend's social changes had huge difficulties in a world which was at least as disrupted. That felt more realistic to me.

(Do we know that "Wisdom of the Heralds" is actually from the Heralds vs just lore? So much knowledge has been lost that I kind of doubt it.)

Edited August 5, 2022 by cometaryorbit

[Treamayne]

15 minutes ago, cometaryorbit said:

And in Well of Ascension Elend's social changes had huge difficulties in a world which was at least as disrupted. That felt more realistic to me.

(Do we know that "Wisdom of the Heralds" is actually from the Heralds vs just lore? So much knowledge has been lost that I kind of doubt it.)

Concur whole-heartedly. 

As for the "Wisdom" I do think at least some of that was passed down (and likely distorted) from when Humans first came to Roshar

Spoiler

If for no other reason than that they came from Ashyn - and so they likely had at least some grasp of germ theory

I also don't think that the Devotary's stance, as presented, is the whole story. If we ever get more information, I expect we'll find that other nations/cultures have more/different ideas in this area. I also expect we'll learn that even when some knowledge/recognition of different mental health techniques were known - they were subsequently lost (due to Desolations, purposely avoided "because that was a Radiant thing and they bretrayed us", or even just the normal Alethi in-fighting).

I don't see that Kaladin's made much progress - other than to recognize that different maladies need different treatments - and that people with depression similar to his can be helped with sunlight*, talking, and keeping active (feeling useful). 

*I say sunlight because if their depression is similar to his - his flashbacks show signs that at least some of his early depression was, in part, Seasonal Affective Disorder

[cometaryorbit]

11 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

Concur whole-heartedly. 

As for the "Wisdom" I do think at least some of that was passed down (and likely distorted) from when Humans first came to Roshar

  Hide contents

If for no other reason than that they came from Ashyn - and so they likely had at least some grasp of germ theory

I also don't think that the Devotary's stance, as presented, is the whole story. If we ever get more information, I expect we'll find that other nations/cultures have more/different ideas in this area. I also expect we'll learn that even when some knowledge/recognition of different mental health techniques were known - they were subsequently lost (due to Desolations, purposely avoided "because that was a Radiant thing and they bretrayed us", or even just the normal Alethi in-fighting).

I don't see that Kaladin's made much progress - other than to recognize that different maladies need different treatments - and that people with depression similar to his can be helped with sunlight*, talking, and keeping active (feeling useful). 

*I say sunlight because if their depression is similar to his - his flashbacks show signs that at least some of his early depression was, in part, Seasonal Affective Disorder

Its more that I think Heralds era Roshar was actually pretty primitive, and much later-discovered knowledge is attributed incorrectly to them by modern Rosharans.

Taldain was iirc the first cosmere world to really go technological, so I think Ashyn science/tech way back then was actually quite limited (though they had powerful Surgebinding or something similar).

Spoiler

I don't think Ashyn magic was disease based yet, either.

Perhaps he hasn't made as much strides as I was making it sound, but it's more... and this may be just me rather than anything really true about the book... how they *discuss* mental health in RoW feels much more modern than it does beginnings-of-psychology (say Freud era), in word choice and attitudes  etc.

Edited August 5, 2022 by cometaryorbit
spelling

[Treamayne]

Spoiler

I agree that the Ashyn thing could go either way - I agree the investiture was unlikly to be disease based - but the fact that it moved that direction after whatever happened implies some knowledge of germ theory in the days before Ishar's folly

8 minutes ago, cometaryorbit said:

Taldain was iirc the first cosmere world to really go technological

I beleive that is correct - but White Sand also shows us that:

Spoiler

Cosmere technology does not really follow our history (except possibly Scadrial which is an Earth-analog) since Darkside had gunpowder and such and beleived Dayside was primitive, until Khriss realised Dayside was far more advanced in Pneumatics and other certain fields

It seems possible that some advance in one area (like Germ theory - which could also be an understanding of effect without truely understanding cause - sanitation improves health without having microscopes and being able to "see" microorganisms) could predate when we made that advance in what other sciences have been explored and which technologies are available

Non-Cosmere

Spoiler

Seven Kennings (Hearne) shows a magic system where part of the magic includes very advanced Germ theory - with almost none of the accompanied sciences

So it's also possible that whatever form investiture did have could have led to this knowledge through non-technological advances. 

6 minutes ago, cometaryorbit said:

Perhaps he hasn't made as much strides as I was making it sound, but it's more... and this may be just me rather than anything really true about the book... how they *discuss* mental health in RoW feels much more modern than it does beginnings-of-psychology (say Freud era), in word choice and attitudes  etc.

Now I see what you mean. I agree, the way it is discussed seems more advanced that what is discussed and how. Not that half-a chapter before the invasion gave much time to get many details. 

[cometaryorbit]

On 8/5/2022 at 5:09 PM, Treamayne said:

It seems possible that some advance in one area (like Germ theory - which could also be an understanding of effect without truely understanding cause - sanitation improves health without having microscopes and being able to "see" microorganisms) could predate when we made that advance in what other sciences have been explored and which technologies are available

Yeah, I think that is where Roshar got its antiseptics etc. The ability to see rotspren makes it easier to tell what helps than it was on Earth. But I don't think they actually know what germs *are*, even though their medical care is more effective than what we had pre-germ-theory.

Raboniel makes a reference in RoW that sounds like the Fused know what antimatter is, but by being told by one of the Shards, not by discovering it on their own. So there may be bits of out-of-context knowledge around, well beyond what the society even in the days of the established Radiant Orders had the theoretical basis to understand.

Edited August 7, 2022 by cometaryorbit

[Treamayne]

On 5/6/2022 at 9:06 AM, Torol Sadeas said:

Edit: Actually, I have another one: In the Jasnah/Wit/Ruthar scene, I shockingly found the former two to be incredibly embarrassing. The scene felt incredibly forced to me, probably the worst I can remember across all four Stormlight books. Wit's insults didnt work at all for me. Very surprising, since I really like both Jasnah and Wit throughout the first three books. (Though to me it seems that Jasnah has become less empathic over time) 

On 5/7/2022 at 10:29 AM, Frustration said:

Jasnah started the fight.

On 5/7/2022 at 5:20 PM, SymphonianBookworm said:

Yes, but if Ruthar hadn't been sexist, the fight wouldn't have happened in the first place. Wit wouldn't have had to insult him, and Jasnah would not have had to stab him. Like I said before, it is a sexist world, but I still can't forgive that. Even drunk, he should know better. In what way do you believe Jasnah started the fight---by talking to the Mink about war tactics?

By the way, I just wanted to say that my tone is lighthearted- I know tone can be misconceived when typing. I am not trying to sound angry or anything like that, and I know what I wrote could be interpreted that way.

I just had a thought about all of this:

• Yes, Ruthar is sexist and a political enemy and threat
• Yes, Jasnah was obviously manipulating the situation
• Yes, Dalinar tried to calm things down

Spoiler

But haven't we seen Wit Riot and Sooth on Roshar before. . .

Maybe it was more of a set-up than it seems on the surface.

[Procrastination]

Ok, I got a few.

1. I don’t really like Dalinar. I loved Adolin’s POVs, and that’s a huge part of it, but this has been building since Oathbringer. While Dalinar had his great moments, his flashbacks were the only ones I’ve disliked, and every time he talks to Adolin in RoW, I grow more upset with him. Because of all that, I was actually completely fine with very little Dalinar in RoW, because we just got so much Dalinar in Oathbringer.

2. I really liked Eshonai and Venli’s flashbacks. I just thought they were really interesting.

3. I like Venli’s character. I like seeing her struggles, and seeing her trying to be better made me really happy. I just overall liked reading her POVs.

4. I liked Navani and the Sibling bonding. It provides room for conflict, and the Sibling did choose to bond Navani in the end. Navani technically didn’t force them, unlike Dalinar with the Stormfather.

 

[Torol Sadeas]

On 11.8.2022 at 4:14 PM, Treamayne said:

I just had a thought about all of this:

• Yes, Ruthar is sexist and a political enemy and threat
• Yes, Jasnah was obviously manipulating the situation
• Yes, Dalinar tried to calm things down

  Reveal hidden contents

But haven't we seen Wit Riot and Sooth on Roshar before. . .

Maybe it was more of a set-up than it seems on the surface.

My issue with the scene was not what it tried to do, but that i thought it was horribly executed. It reminded me of a lot of Shallan scenes in TWoK in the sense that Brandon tried way too hard to make it funny. 

[Treamayne]

2 hours ago, Torol Sadeas said:

My issue with the scene was not what it tried to do, but that i thought it was horribly executed. It reminded me of a lot of Shallan scenes in TWoK in the sense that Brandon tried way too hard to make it funny. 

Concur - with the caveat that I think BS might not have been trying for humor. I think it's possible (probable) his goal was to make the scene as uncomfortable for the reader as it was for the bystanders witnessing this in-story.

[SymphonianBookworm]

7 hours ago, Torol Sadeas said:

My issue with the scene was not what it tried to do, but that i thought it was horribly executed. It reminded me of a lot of Shallan scenes in TWoK in the sense that Brandon tried way too hard to make it funny. 

Am I the only one who likes the scene? Wit and Jasnah worked so well together and what they achieved was great, in so little time. She made a new law, got rid of an annoying high prince, got loyalty of his children, insulted people, etc, etc!

guess that’s another unpopular RoW opinion.