Does anyone still want a Moash redemption arc?

[Letryx13]

11 hours ago, Frustration said:

Radiants with regrowth heal faster than those without. I'd assume more powerfully to. And Honorblades are likely the same.

Do we know that it's the regrowth that causes this? The only instance I know of this happening is Renarrin. A squire is certainly less powerful than a full radiant, but members of Bridge Four could heal from shard blade wounds after they became squires.

1 hour ago, Treamayne said:

Most likely T mentioned an Honorblade with Regrowth because the healing Szeth gained from the Windrunner Honorblde didn't let him heal a blade severed limb, so if you are trying to convince The Assassin in White that Radiants have not returned, it would take a Regrowth Blade to heal a blade severed limb.

Very likely, since Renarin's fight with the Thunderclast showed him using healing like Miles in AoL:

Oathbringer Ch 120:

  Hide contents

The thunderclast’s palm crashed down on Renarin, smashing him. Adolin screamed, but his brother’s Shardblade cut up through the palm, then separated the hand from the wrist.

The thunderclast trumpeted in anger as Renarin climbed from the rubble of the hand. He seemed to heal more quickly than Kaladin or Shallan did, as if being crushed wasn’t even a bother.

Then again, it's Renarin, so there could be other factors. . .

I agree, Renarin is the only example we have of a Radiant healing more quickly . I admit, at first I thought the surge of progression is what caused this, but in RoW, Rabonial mentions how radiant's and Honor's power is external focused while Odium's is more internal. It's entirely possible that this is what makes Renarin's internal healing more effective. 

I don't think it's compounding, I think it's Odium's influence making the power more internal than external. It interferes with the surge of Illumination, so it's not unreasonable to think it could alter his internal healing.  

[Treamayne]

3 hours ago, Frustration said:

Not really, compounding is changing what effect the Investiture gives you, this would be a boost in the powers effect because you have twice the power.

3 hours ago, Letryx13 said:

I don't think it's compounding, I think it's Odium's influence making the power more internal than external. It interferes with the surge of Illumination, so it's not unreasonable to think it could alter his internal healing.  

Well, it would depend on the definition, wouldn't it? Compounding (Capital C) is a feature of the metallic arts from Scadrial in which use of one form of investiture through a different method (burning a Metalmind) changes how both "work" (The burning changes the output from the Allomantic result to the Feruchemical result; while burning instead of tapping changes the output power from additive and balances to multiplicative and exponentially increased).

However, it is possible that compounding (small c) is a feature of similar effects from different or related sources results in a multiplicative result, We don't have enough data to say this is true, but I think it is possible.

3 hours ago, Letryx13 said:

It interferes with the surge of Illumination, so it's not unreasonable to think it could alter his internal healing.  

What makes you say that it interferes with Illumination?

From the data I'm aware of, we only truly know that Renarin was not able to use Illumination the same way that Shallan does; but we also know that each order's manifestation of a surge are not necessarily the same. Also, we know he was able to use illumination with Moash in RoW for an effect similar to Electrum (showing Moash what he could have been if things in the past had gone differently).

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Do we know that it's the regrowth that causes this? The only instance I know of this happening is Renarrin. A squire is certainly less powerful than a full radiant, but members of Bridge Four could heal from shard blade wounds after they became squires.

 

It could very well be an application between Progression and Regrowth, similar to the Reverse Lashing being an application of both Adhesion and Gravitation.

Also, while squires could slowly heal from a shard deadened limb; I thought the original point was why would King T need to imply an honorblade with regrowth was how Kaladin healed his arm. So, it's not just *what* can heal a blade deadened limb; it's what methods that don't require a Radiant Bond can do so and why T thought that was the best red herring for continuing to manipulate Szeth.

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I agree, Renarin is the only example we have of a Radiant healing more quickly .

 

He is also the only Truthwatcher/Edgedancer we have seen in the situation where that level of healing was needed. Until we see somebody other than Lift or Renarin perform this type of healing (or fail to do so) we won't have enough data to know if it is a feature or bug of a Truthwatcher/Edgedancer bond.

[Letryx13]

2 hours ago, Treamayne said:

Well, it would depend on the definition, wouldn't it? Compounding (Capital C) is a feature of the metallic arts from Scadrial in which use of one form of investiture through a different method (burning a Metalmind) changes how both "work" (The burning changes the output from the Allomantic result to the Feruchemical result; while burning instead of tapping changes the output power from additive and balances to multiplicative and exponentially increased).

However, it is possible that compounding (small c) is a feature of similar effects from different or related sources results in a multiplicative result, We don't have enough data to say this is true, but I think it is possible.

I suppose it's possible. If compounding works, in part, because of the combination of two shards, then I suppose this could be a different form of compounding.

2 hours ago, Treamayne said:

What makes you say that it interferes with Illumination?

Renarin has trouble with illusions. He doesn't seem to be able to create full illusions intentionally, just balls of light.  

2 hours ago, Treamayne said:

From the data I'm aware of, we only truly know that Renarin was not able to use Illumination the same way that Shallan does; but we also know that each order's manifestation of a surge are not necessarily the same. Also, we know he was able to use illumination with Moash in RoW for an effect similar to Electrum (showing Moash what he could have been if things in the past had gone differently).

Other TruthWatchers, such as the stump, are able to create illusions, according to Navani.  And I don't think he made that illusion of Moash intentionally. What would be the point? And not to nitpick, but I'm not sure Electrum is the right metal.  It's more like Gold, but of someone else. Malatium, maybe?

2 hours ago, Treamayne said:

Also, while squires could slowly heal from a shard deadened limb; I thought the original point was why would King T need to imply an honorblade with regrowth was how Kaladin healed his arm. So, it's not just *what* can heal a blade deadened limb; it's what methods that don't require a Radiant Bond can do so and why T thought that was the best red herring for continuing to manipulate Szeth.

The point I was making there is that from what Szeth told T at the time, T could have assume the person Szeth saw healed someone else's wound.  Which is why he might have mentioned a blade that granted regrowth.

2 hours ago, Treamayne said:

He is also the only Truthwatcher/Edgedancer we have seen in the situation where that level of healing was needed. Until we see somebody other than Lift or Renarin perform this type of healing (or fail to do so) we won't have enough data to know if it is a feature or bug of a Truthwatcher/Edgedancer bond.

Unfortunately, this is true. We don't have a good comparison, yet.

[Moash's Dad]

 Just wondering why does Moash need a redemption ark? He gets the the thumbs up from papi, guys. He's a perfect person with no flaws.

 

[Frustration]

1 hour ago, Moash's Dad said:

 Just wondering why does Moash need a redemption ark? He gets the the thumbs up from papi, guys. He's a perfect person with no flaws.

 

You know, other than murdering multiple defenseless bystanders.

[Immortal Platypus]

8 minutes ago, Frustration said:

You know, other than murdering multiple defenseless bystanders.

Just ignore that . . .  

[Could Be Fire]

More than a year of percolating later I'm more and more convinced of Moash redemption. It might be a "redemption in death" Vader/Snape style (sort of like Elhokar I guess lol?) but honestly, I can really see it being a full-blown Dalinar style dragging himself from the gates of hell to become a better person arc.

I know killing Teft is really really bad, but he didn't just killing Teft for the lulz or revenge or even hatred of Teft but as a desperate attempt to make Kaladin commit suicide. Which, lol, does sound even worse, but death was the only way Moash can think of to keep Kaladin safe from Odium.

Look back at Interlude 4

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I WOULD CLAIM THIS ONE, AS I HAVE CLAIMED YOU, Odium said.

And Vyre would see him dead first. A mercy.

...

WILL THIS BE ENOUGH? IF WE SHOW HIM VISIONS, WILL THAT BREAK HIM?

“It will be a start. I can bring him to the brink. Get him to step up to the ledge.”

THEN WHAT?

“Then we find a way to make him jump,” Moash said softly.

 

It's honestly kind of impressive that Moash is able to do this. Moash's POV in RoW really hammers in just how under Odium's control he is now, but he's still able to hold enough ofh himself together here to manipulate Odium into a plan that is (in his mind) the only way he has to keep Kaladin out of Odium's clutches.

This is even a repeatable thing. There's also later in Chap 105. Same idea, Odium wants someone alive, Moash does what he can to kill them.

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Odium was interested in the Edgedancer, and Moash had been forbidden to kill her. Hopefully he hadn’t struck her head too hard. He didn’t always control that as he should.

Like yes murder bad but if Moash was truly completely irredemable, he would have just actually try to help Odium recruit Kaladin and Lift.

The suicide baiting is seriously f'd up as a plan of action, but considering Moash is psychically connected to the literal embodiment of hatred who is playing 52-card pick-up with his emotions it's kind of understandable how he ended up with it. I think it's also important to remember that Moash joins Odium at an explicit "join us or die" choice. He chooses "join us", and he clearly regrets that.

I'm not trying to say that Moash is secretly the hero or whatever, just that a redemption arc is very possible. The more I think about his character the more I see the parallels to Marsh especially (just compare Moash's RoW chapters to Marsh HoA ones), but also the Lord Ruler or Hrathan, the characters who are clearly villians from a narrative perspective (do bad things to the protagonist) but have understandable (and often magically forced) motivations. It's an archetype Sanderson clearly really likes.

I also there's a lot to be said about how Moash's arc intersects with the Kholin/Moash/Roshone/Kaladin ""situation"" and the whole Alethi insitionalilized casteism thing that it's emblematic of, especially with Gaivnor's growing role in the narrative and the deliberate reminders that Dalinar was (and sometimes still is) a bad person but that's an entirely different thread.

[KaladinWorldsinger]

I will have immense respect for Brandon if he even tries to do a moash redemption without killing him. 

But seeing how Brandon talks about him sometimes, moash will prolly feel a lot of guilt at the end, cry and die.

But I can hope

[Wayne's Unlucky Hat he/him]

I would love for him to get a more important spot in the next book and for him to redeem himself.

[Marabout]

On 2022-11-01 at 10:23 PM, Frustration said:

You know, other than murdering multiple defenseless bystanders.

Szeth has murdered many more innocent bystanders than Moash but everyone seems to love him.

The grand champion of killing innocent bystanders though is Dalinar.

 

[Frustration]

22 minutes ago, Marabout said:

Szeth has murdered many more innocent bystanders than Moash but everyone seems to love him.

The grand champion of killing innocent bystanders though is Dalinar.

 

Yes because fan love and moral character are perfectly interchangeable. 

You will note I said this in response to someone saying Moash needed no redemption, which both Dalinar and Szeth did.

Edited November 26, 2022 by Frustration

[Letryx13]

18 hours ago, Marabout said:

Szeth has murdered many more innocent bystanders than Moash but everyone seems to love him.

The grand champion of killing innocent bystanders though is Dalinar.

 

Szeth did all of that hating himself, and wanting to stop, but kept going because he believed he was honor bound to continue. I think he was wrong either way, but there’s a big difference between that and someone throwing everyone away and killing people for revenge or on a whim. 
 

Dalinar was a terrible person earlier on his life, but even at his absolute worse at the Rift, even justified while fighting against a rebelling city, he never intended to wipe out Rathalass completely. He tried to stop Sadeas from burning it all to the ground, but lost control of the situation. He comes right up to the edge of being unforgivable, but I don’t think he crosses it. And while Dalinar acknowledges what he did and is trying to do better, Moash refuses to do so, no matter what happens. When he arrived in Revalar, after fleeing the warcamps, all he did was rationalize his previous choices. 

[Marabout]

It took Dalinar years and years soaked in alcohol and the death of his brother to begin his redemption arc.

The fact that we are introduced to Dalinar After his crimes and partial redemption rather than them being fresh to us doesn’t make them any less serious than Moash’s and doesn’t make Dalinar more deserving of redemption than Moash (the point of this thread).

As far as motivation goes… we have Revenge vs War lust vs Stupidity.  Go ahead and argue that Szeth was being honourable and following custom but doing whatever someone tells you to because they are holding a special rock is just plain stupid and naive.  As far as motivations for murder goes, Szeth’s is the worst, followed by Dalinar, followed by Moash who has an Actual Reason for hating the people he wants to kill.

As for the magnitude of the crimes, Dalinar’s are the worst, followed by Szeth, followed by Moash.  Moash has the lowest kill count by far.  Moash is unfairly demonized because of Who he has killed, not how many.  

As to who has been killed… Moash killed a king, Szeth killed at least two (plus various highlords), Moash killed a Bridge 4 member, Szeth killed at least 3 of them.

Some state that Moash can’t be forgiven because he was willing to kill Kaladin in WOR.  Consider this though… Kaladin’s oath was that he will protect even those he hates as long as it is right… Moash’s oath is that he will kill even those he loves as long as it is right.  It is the perfect foil to Kaladin’s POV.

Is Moash wrongheaded?  Certainly from the narrator’s POV.  But if Moash was the main character he would be a man seeking revenge at all costs who goes too far and then gets seduced by a dark God who allows him to not feel guilt.  

I still think Moash will find redemption.  Maybe in the form of a sacrificial death but I hope not… too cliché.

 

[Letryx13]

1 hour ago, Marabout said:

It took Dalinar years and years soaked in alcohol and the death of his brother to begin his redemption arc.

The fact that we are introduced to Dalinar After his crimes and partial redemption rather than them being fresh to us doesn’t make them any less serious than Moash’s and doesn’t make Dalinar more deserving of redemption than Moash (the point of this thread). 

Dalinar’s years of alcoholism prove that he regretted what happened at the rift. He was horrified at the death that he caused, and even on that day he acknowledged that they’d gone too far. If and when Moash manages to say something similar, his deserving of redemption might change. Yes, Gavilar’s death is what shocked Dalinar into pursuing the Night Watcher, but he still made that choice of his own volition. He wanted to change. Does Moash?

2 hours ago, Marabout said:

As far as motivation goes… we have Revenge vs War lust vs Stupidity.  Go ahead and argue that Szeth was being honourable and following custom but doing whatever someone tells you to because they are holding a special rock is just plain stupid and naive.  As far as motivations for murder goes, Szeth’s is the worst, followed by Dalinar, followed by Moash who has an Actual Reason for hating the people he wants to kill.

I don’t consider Szeth honorable for adhering to the rules of a Truthless. I posted a poll a while back about that very topic. But at the same, he was doing what he believed was right as he perceived it based on his culture. And different cultures have different values.  And as far as Dalinar’s motivations go, he was influenced as much by the Thrill as anything else, and much of what he did was for uniting a kingdom. He can’t bear sole blame for what he did.  Or if you’re talking about the Rift in particular, they had rebelled, betrayed, and tried to kill him first. Terrible as it was, they were a city in rebellion. Some sort of response was warranted. 

Moash, on the other hand, cares about no one but himself. He killed Elhokar and Rashone for revenge, which served no one but himself. He tried to use duty to the kingdom to justify it to Kaladin, but it was all about revenge. And to get it, he threw away the people that had accepted him as a brother, one of whom gave him treasures worth kingdoms. And after his first attempt to kill Elhokar (which he said he had a right to do) instead of acknowledging how terrible his actions were, he blamed everyone else. Beyond that, he’s killed people, on mere whim, thinking they were better off dead. 

2 hours ago, Marabout said:

As for the magnitude of the crimes, Dalinar’s are the worst, followed by Szeth, followed by Moash.  Moash has the lowest kill count by far.  Moash is unfairly demonized because of Who he has killed, not how many.  

Dalinar’s and Szeth both regret their actions. Redemption requires remorse and atonement. Moash is demonized because he is a traitor twice over (by his own admission) and never been sorry. The circumstances of someone’s actions matter, or every soldier on a battlefield that’s ever killed an enemy would be a murderer. You can’t use a cookie cutter approach that every act can be judged the same way. That’s addressed in one of the conversations between Dalinar’s and Tarravangian. 

2 hours ago, Marabout said:

As to who has been killed… Moash killed a king, Szeth killed at least two (plus various highlords), Moash killed a Bridge 4 member, Szeth killed at least 3 of them.

Again, Szeth believed he had no choice. I agree with Kaladin that he always had a choice, but Szeth makes it clear many times that he has no desire to hurt anyone. Moash killed for revenge, abandoning people who considered him to be family. He killed for stupid and selfish reasons. Besides, what’s more terrible killing strangers or killing family?
 

2 hours ago, Marabout said:

Some state that Moash can’t be forgiven because he was willing to kill Kaladin in WOR.  Consider this though… Kaladin’s oath was that he will protect even those he hates as long as it is right… Moash’s oath is that he will kill even those he loves as long as it is right.  It is the perfect foil to Kaladin’s POV.

Kaladin’s oath is about protecting people whether he likes them or not. As he himself notes, if he only protects people he likes, he only cares about what’s convenient for him. That’s not protecting, it’s selfish. Moash’s reasons have nothing to do with what is right. It’s about doing what he wants, making himself feel better, no matter who gets in his way. Even that person is a brother who helped pull him out of Damnation and gave him priceless treasures. 
 

2 hours ago, Marabout said:

Is Moash wrongheaded?  Certainly from the narrator’s POV.  But if Moash was the main character he would be a man seeking revenge at all costs who goes too far and then gets seduced by a dark God who allows him to not feel guilt.  

Killing for revenge is always wrong. It’s selfish and shortsighted. It twists a person until they’re something they’re not. As it almost does to Kaladin. 

Beyond that, for all we know, Moash’s grandparents died of natural causes in prison. We have no proof that they would have lived if they hadn’t been thrown in prison. We also don’t know that they were innocent of the crime they were accused of. They shouldn’t have been thrown in jail before anything was proven, but there’s no proof that they were innocent. 

[Frustration]

@Marabout Moash said he wasn't sorry for what he did, only that it hurt him.

He killed Men who had been locked away in Hearthstone just because he knew it would hurt Kal, he killed a comatose radiant simply because Teft wasn't fighting him. He killed Jezrien simply because he was asked to.

He feels no remorse for his actions, even when Odium isn't influencing him.

[Marabout]

@Ookla the Frustrated.

The things you just listed, other than Jezrien, were done under Odium’s influence.

The only two times he isn’t under the influence during RoW are when he’s struck by “the light”, once from Renarin and once from Navani. 

And again, Szeth killed Dozens of people just because he was told to.
 

[Frustration]

15 minutes ago, Marabout said:

@Ookla the Frustrated.

The things you just listed, other than Jezrien, were done under Odium’s influence.

The only two times he isn’t under the influence during RoW are when he’s struck by “the light”, once from Renarin and once from Navani. 

"I burned the children of Rathalas, you may have been influencing me, but it was my choice." -Dalinar OB.

Being under Odium's influence doesn't take away agency. Moash is still responsible.

16 minutes ago, Marabout said:

@Ookla the Frustrated.

And again, Szeth killed Dozens of people just because he was told to.

And he felt sorry for it.

Which Moash, even when not under Odium's influence clearly states that he is not.

[Letryx13]

8 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

"I burned the children of Rathalas, you may have been influencing me, but it was my choice." -Dalinar OB.

Being under Odium's influence doesn't take away agency. Moash is still responsible.

Hard agree.  
The whole point of the third BondSmith ideal is about owning up to mistakes. And Dalinar’s redemption portrays this perfectly. How can someone be redeemed or forgiven if they don’t admit they’ve done something wrong in the first place?

[Marabout]

I never argued that Moash isn’t responsible.

Of course he is.

The question is whether redemption is still possible.

My point is that Moash has not done anything that other characters haven’t done and those characters have gone on to have a redemption arc (except for Szeth who everyone but Navani… fans included… seem to instantly forgive)

Its not fair to compare him to Dalinar at a point when Dalinar is at the End of his redemptive arc and Moash is in the pre-contemplation stage.

Will Moash ever progress to the contemplative stage and accept responsibility for his actions and choose to feel the full emotional weight of what he has done?  Likely not.  It sure doesn’t seem written that way so far.  

I just don’t see him as irredeemable.

 

[Greywatch she/her]

Moash definitely feels bad. If he wasn't sorry, he wouldn't have to constantly tell himself that he doesn't feel bad. Brandon doesn't hand-feed character; sometimes the text requires us to understand that what a character believes isn't necessarily true.

[Beodrakis he/him]

I see where you are coming from, but I don't think that it is possible to give every character a redemption arc. So far, the main characters, have gotten redemption arcs, but if every bad guy turns good, then there isn't much fun to it, if you know that someone will eventually turn back to the good side, then what is the point of making them bad in the first place. there is also the fact that Moash is now a serial killer, and I don't think that Kaladin would be quick to forgive the person that killed Elhokar, and then Teft. Moash has been completely absorbed by Odium's passion, and although it's good to be hopeful, I sadly don't think that there is any possibility of Moash coming back.

[Letryx13]

On 11/27/2022 at 9:00 AM, Marabout said:

My point is that Moash has not done anything that other characters haven’t done and those characters have gone on to have a redemption arc (except for Szeth who everyone but Navani… fans included… seem to instantly forgive)

It's less that Szeth has been forgiven and more that he's been given a chance to atone. I don't believe that he should be instantly forgiven, considering how foolish he was, but what he did is still different than someone who doesn't regret his choices.

On 11/27/2022 at 9:00 AM, Marabout said:

Its not fair to compare him to Dalinar at a point when Dalinar is at the End of his redemptive arc and Moash is in the pre-contemplation stage.

Again, even on the day of the fire at the Rift, Dalinar acknowledged that they'd gone to far, and was haunted by the screams he heard of people dying.  Has Moash shown anything like that in terms of remorse or regret?

When Moash was presented with the chance to confront what he'd done, he blamed the entire world, saying it wasn't his fault.  And later he admitted that he wasn't sorry about what he'd done, just sorry about how it made him feel.  If killing someone who'd been like family to him wasn't enough to make him consider that he might be wrong, bring him to the contemplation stage as you call it, then what will?  

[Frustration]

17 hours ago, Greywatch said:

Moash definitely feels bad. If he wasn't sorry, he wouldn't have to constantly tell himself that he doesn't feel bad. Brandon doesn't hand-feed character; sometimes the text requires us to understand that what a character believes isn't necessarily true.

"Teft, I..." He couldn't say it. The words wouldn't form. He wasn't sorry for what he'd done. He was only sorry for how his actions made him feel." -RoW 1169-1170

[offer]

9 hours ago, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

"Teft, I..." He couldn't say it. The words wouldn't form. He wasn't sorry for what he'd done. He was only sorry for how his actions made him feel." -RoW 1169-1170

He is not sorry for his actions because logically he believes that he did it to help his freinds.

He is definetly feeling bad for what he did and the suffering he caused to his freinds bad he is not sorry because he believe that was the best action possible.

[Greywatch she/her]

On 2022-11-28 at 7:31 PM, Ookla the Frustrated. said:

"Teft, I..." He couldn't say it. The words wouldn't form. He wasn't sorry for what he'd done. He was only sorry for how his actions made him feel." -RoW 1169-1170

Yes, thank you for grabbing the quote, that was exactly what I had in mind when I said what I said. Insisting that he's not sorry is great character writing for a character who can't get what he's done out of his own head and trying to put a different spin on why he can't stop himself thinking about it. I appreciate the help in backing up my point.