Moash poll

[SymphonianBookworm]

I think Moash, from the beginning, hasn’t been the best character. Trying to kill Elhokar, Kaladin, and actually killing Teft? And then deciding he doesn’t want to deal with emotions? I’m sorry Moash, but you have to deal with the consequences of your actions. 

[HOID WANTS INSTANT NOODLES]

Who put in moash is great on the poll??? what?

[Frustration]

1 hour ago, HOID WANTS INSTANT NOODLES said:

Who put in moash is great on the poll??? what?

They were probably just trolling.

[Rg2045]

33 minutes ago, Frustration said:

They were probably just trolling.

And it was before RoW when everyone thought he was kaladin but on the singer side(and in a way he is, Just odium is literally the embodiment of passionate hate so moash is kinda how kaladin would have been if he fallen) 

[Treamayne]

Moash turned his Laser Guided Karma at the end of WoR into being a Karma Houdini with Joker Immunity because Kaladin doesn't want to fight him. Unfortunately for him, the Warranty has ended not just because he killed Teft and Phendorana, but because of how. I don't expect Kal to cut him any more slack, should they meet again. 

Also, RoW Ch 111 shows that it was neither his Connection to Odium, nor Unmade influence that led him to this:

Spoiler

Her light. The queen’s light.

And before that, a terrible sound. It had pushed away his Connection to Odium, forcing Moash to feel pain for the things he’d done—pain he didn’t want. Pain he’d given away.

. . .

“Teft, I…” He couldn’t say it. The words wouldn’t form. He wasn’t sorry for what he’d done. He was only sorry for how his actions made him feel.

All that aside, I think Moash's arc is well conceived and executed. He's just a moral sinkhole who has decided to avoid any responsibility for his own choices and actions through excuses and escapism. 

Moash never even pretended to care about working to fix the class disparity between light and dark eyes - and only recognizes it as a further excuse for his own revenge plans. 

On 6/28/2022 at 2:42 PM, Oltux72 said:

At the risk of repeating myself: Kaladin broke his word. There is no way around that.
You are suggesting that Moash do the same with the man whom he had given his word to.

Okay, let's explore that:

Spoiler

WoR Ch 44

Quote

“Syl,” he said, trying a thrust with the sword, “you’re honorspren. Does that mean you can tell me the right thing to do?”

“Definitely,” she said, hanging nearby in the form of a young woman, legs swinging off an invisible ledge. She wasn’t zipping around him in a ribbon, as she often did when he sparred.

“Is it wrong for Moash to try to kill the king?”

“Of course.”

“Why?”

“Because killing is wrong.”

“And the Parshendi I killed?”

“We’ve talked about this. It had to be done.”

“And what if one of them was a Surgebinder,” Kaladin said. “With his own honorspren?”

“Parshendi can’t become Surgebin—”

“Just pretend,” Kaladin said, grunting as he tried another thrust. He wasn’t getting it right. “I’d guess all the Parshendi want to do at this point is survive. Storms, the ones involved in Gavilar’s death, they might not even still be alive. Their leaders were executed back in Alethkar, after all. So you tell me, if a common Parshendi who is protecting his people comes up against me, what would his honorspren say? That he’s doing the right thing?”

“I . . .” Syl hunched down. She hated questions like this. “It doesn’t matter. You said you won’t kill the Parshendi anymore.”

“And Amaram? Can I kill him?”

“Is that justice?” Syl asked.

“One form.”

“There’s a difference.”

“What?” Kaladin demanded, thrusting. Storm it! Why couldn’t he make the stupid weapon go where it should?

“Because of what it does to you,” Syl said softly. “Thinking about him changes you. Twists you. You’re supposed to protect, Kaladin. Not kill.”

WoR Ch 46

Quote

“They’re right. You know they are, Kal. I can see it in you.”

“They’re traitors,” Kaladin said. “I want nothing to do with them.”

“You said you’d consider!”

“I said that,” Kaladin said softly, “so that they’d let me leave. We have a duty, Moash.”

“Is it greater than the duty to the country itself?”

“You don’t care about the country,” Kaladin snapped. “You just want to pursue your grudge.”

WoR Ch 52

Quote

“There’s a question you’re avoiding,” Syl said, landing on his shoulder. “It’s been two days. When are you going to tell Dalinar about those men that Moash took you to meet?”

“He didn’t listen when I told him about Amaram.”

“This is obviously different,” Syl said.

It was, and she was right. So why hadn’t he told Dalinar?

“Those men didn’t seem the type who would wait long,” Syl said.

“I’ll do something about them,” Kaladin said. “I just want to think about it some more. I don’t want Moash to get caught in the storm when we bring them down.”

She fell silent as he walked the rest of the way, retrieving his spear, then climbed the ladder up onto the plateaus.

WoR Ch 56

Quote

I’ll get you out of this, Moash, Kaladin thought, pulling the man aside. We’ll fix this.

“Moash,” Kaladin said, speaking softly. “Starting tomorrow, I’m putting you on patrol duty.”

Moash frowned. “I thought you always wanted me guarding . . .” His expression grew hard. “This is about what happened. In the tavern.”

“I want you to take a deep patrol,” Kaladin said. “Head out toward New Natanan. I don’t want you here when we move against Graves and his people.” It had been too long already.

WoR Ch 66

Quote

Moash turned to him sharply. “So . . .”

“So tell them I agree with their plan,” Kaladin said. “I’ll do what they want me to in order to help them . . . accomplish their task.”

The room grew strangely still.

Moash took him by the arm. “I told them you’d see.” He gestured to the Plate he wore. “This will help too, with what we must do. And once we’ve finished, I think a certain man you challenged might need the same treatment.”

“I only agree,” Kaladin said, “because it’s for the best. For you, Moash, this is about revenge—and don’t try to deny it. I really think it is what Alethkar needs. Maybe what the world needs.”

“Oh, I know,” Moash said

WoR Ch 68

Quote

He leaned in to whisper. “Don’t worry. Graves says you aren’t going to have to do much. We just need an opening.”

Kaladin felt sick. “We can’t do it when Dalinar is in the warcamp,” he whispered. “I won’t risk him being hurt.”

“No problem,” Moash said. “We feel the same way. We’ll wait for the right moment. The newest plan is to hit the king with an arrow, so there’s no risk of implicating you or anyone else. You lead him to the right spot, and Graves will fell the king with his own bow. He’s an excellent shot.”

WoR Ch 77

Quote

 “We’ll raise an alert in the palace that the Assassin in White has been seen. Then we’ll do what was done last time—send all of the servants into hiding in their rooms. Nobody will be around to see what we do, nobody will get hurt, and they’ll all believe that the Shin assassin was behind this. We couldn’t have asked for this to play out better! And you won’t have to do anything, Kal. Graves says that we won’t need your help after all.”

“So why are you here?” Kaladin asked.

“I just wanted to check on you,” Moash said. He stepped in closer. “Is it true, what Lopen says? About your . . . abilities?”

Storming Herdazian. Lopen had stayed behind—with Dabbid and Hobber—to take care of the barrack and watch over Kaladin. They’d been talking to Moash, it seemed.

“Yes,” Kaladin said.

“What happened?”

“I’m not sure,” he lied. “I offended Syl. I haven’t seen her in days. Without her, I can’t draw in Stormlight.”

“We’ll have to fix that somehow,” Moash said. “Either that, or get you Plate and Blade of your own.”

Kaladin looked up at his friend. “I think she left because of the plot to kill the king, Moash. I don’t think a Radiant could be involved in something like this.”

“Shouldn’t a Radiant care about doing what is right? Even if it means a difficult decision?”

“Sometimes lives must be spent for the greater good,” Kaladin said.

“Yes, exactly!”

“That’s what Amaram said. In regards to my friends, whom he murdered to cover up his secrets.”

“Well, that’s different, obviously. He’s a lighteyes.”

Kaladin looked to Moash, whose eyes had turned as light a tan as those of any Brightlord. Same color as Amaram’s, actually. “So are you.”

 

 

So, once in seven examples he agrees (without an oath) to the plan - because he has just been in his deepest depression up until this point by being jailed and is angry and bitter. Before the events after the dual he explictly was against the action, and explicitly ordered Moash to cease and desist. After he is obviously against the decision emotionally, and trying to convince himself otherwise. And before the confrontation itself, he already told Moash he couldn't be a part of the plans and that it was so wrong that Syl "left" him. Also, most of Kaladin's internal waffling has more to do with trying to protect Moash than honor any implied agreement with his revenge plan.

I don't see any broken oath toward Moash here - and even less toward Graves and his "plan."

Edited July 8, 2022 by Treamayne
SPAG/Formatting

[+Oltux72]

14 hours ago, HOID WANTS INSTANT NOODLES said:

Who put in moash is great on the poll??? what?

Somebody who took a statistics class and knows how to make a neutral poll.

10 hours ago, Treamayne said:

I don't see any broken oath toward Moash here - and even less toward Graves and his "plan."

He agreed with him going ahead to do a capital crime. Technically that is not an oath. Nevertheless, it is his word.

[Treamayne]

3 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Somebody who took a statistics class and knows how to make a neutral poll.

I think HWIN meant "who voted for that option," not "who added that as an option."

Quote

He agreed with him going ahead to do a capital crime. Technically that is not an oath. Nevertheless, it is his word.

Call it what you will, but there is still a distinct difference between Moash, who did swear actual Military oaths, multiple, to obey his superiors and protect Dalinar and his Family (which includes his nephew Elhokar) and Kaladin saying "he agrees with Graves' plan" in a fit of anger and depression - and immediately regretting it. Then warning Moash before the plan was executed that he wouldn't support it. 

I admit there was obviously values dissonance involved or Syl's bond would not have been affected. It comes down to this:

• Kaladin is obviously confused, but trying to understand the moral and ethical factors around protection, revenge, and "justice"
• Moash, through action and words, clearly shows that nothing and nobody is more important to him than his revenge. And when we do get his viewpoint in Oathbringer he doesn't regret betraying his oaths - only that Bridge Four might find out what he did. 

OB Ch 43

Spoiler

Moash could almost hear their voices, and he smiled, imagining that he was there. Then, he imagined Kaladin telling them what Moash had done.

He tried to kill me, Kaladin would say. He betrayed everything. His oath to protect the king, his duty to Alethkar, but most importantly us.

Moash sagged, patch in his fingers. He should throw that thing in the fire.

Storms. He should throw himself in the fire.

He doesn't even consider what "friendship" might mean to others and that Kaladin still wouldn't sell him out in that way.

I don't want or expect you to change how you think of Moash, your opinions are your own and you are entitled to them. I'm just trying to show you that trying to say that Kal and Moash are the same is empirically incorrect.

Edited July 9, 2022 by Treamayne
SPAG

[HOID WANTS INSTANT NOODLES]

4 hours ago, Treamayne said:

I think HWIN meant "who voted for that option," not "who added that as an option."

Yes that is what i meant. It makes sense to have it on a poll but not to vote for it. Even if you think moash is redeemable he clearly is not "great" and saying moash is a mirror of kaladin does not make much sense either as the whole conflict between them is(rhythm of war spoilers)

Spoiler

that moash gave up his pain and took the cowardly option while kaladin accepted responsibility. This is one of the big themes of stormlight. Responsibility Dalinar accepts it, Kaladin accepts it, Szeth kinda accepts it. Radiancy revolves around the notion that with great power comes great responsibility. Moash is a foil to kaladin in that he accepts power but not responsibility. He takes weakness before strengtha(giving up his pain) and journey before destination(his power before he can wisely handle it. In stormlight our 3 main foils to the first oath are Sadeas, for life before death, Moash, for strength before weakness, and Taravangian, for journey before destination. Moash is weak and pityable but cannot be truly compared to somebody brave and honorable like Kaladin

 

 

[+Oltux72]

56 minutes ago, HOID WANTS INSTANT NOODLES said:

Yes that is what i meant. It makes sense to have it on a poll but not to vote for it. Even if you think moash is redeemable he clearly is not "great" and saying moash is a mirror of kaladin does not make much sense either as the whole conflict between them is(rhythm of war spoilers)

How shall I put this? Human attitudes are quite variable.

You could be a hard core socialist and see Moash as the only member of Bridge 4 who did not sell out to the aristocracy. Mind you, it is not a position I would hold, but if you have a highly skewed perception, there is a kernel of truth to this. Kaladin is now technically a feudal lord with command over people who are not allowed to leave his lands. Moash stood up for slaves and eagerly accepts hard labour.

Quote

  Hide contents

that moash gave up his pain and took the cowardly option while kaladin accepted responsibility. This is one of the big themes of stormlight. Responsibility Dalinar accepts it, Kaladin accepts it, Szeth kinda accepts it. Radiancy revolves around the notion that with great power comes great responsibility. Moash is a foil to kaladin in that he accepts power but not responsibility. He takes weakness before strengtha(giving up his pain) and journey before destination(his power before he can wisely handle it. In stormlight our 3 main foils to the first oath are Sadeas, for life before death, Moash, for strength before weakness, and Taravangian, for journey before destination. Moash is weak and pityable but cannot be truly compared to somebody brave and honorable like Kaladin

 

No. Simply no. Moash is a man who fought for his revenge. Who fought slavers, who could just have ended him then and there. He is not weak. He may be beaten, but everybody can be beaten, if too many things go wrong. That does not make him weak.
There are things you can say like that he is treating a friend with a mental illness in an inexcuseable way, but he is neither weak nor a coward.

Edited July 9, 2022 by Oltux72
typo

[offer]

37 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

There are things you can say like that he is treating a friend with a mental illness in an inexcuseable way, but he is neither weak nor a coward.

From his percpective he is trying to help Kaladin and willing to risk a lot of pain for it.

He sees liife as inherently bad and painfull and he is trying to save his freind from the pain. Of course Kaladin sees that life is actually worth living, but Moash doesn`t know that - he doesn`t have anyone to explain him life can be enjoiable or to give him an optimistic vision of his dead brother.

[HOID WANTS INSTANT NOODLES]

3 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

 

No. Simply no. Moash is a man who fought for his revenge. Who fought slavers, who could just have ended him then and there. He is not weak. He may be beaten, but everybody can be beaten, if too many things go wrong. That does not make him weak.
There are things you can say like that he is treating a friend with a mental illness in an inexcuseable way, but he is neither weak nor a coward.

revenge. That's a word that you are using to explain why Moash isn't a coward. Revenge is cowardly, it means you arent strong enough to accept what has happened and move on.To let go of your hatred. Seeking justice is good, Seeking to save others by distributing justice is good, but that is not what Moash wants, Moash wants to hurt those who hurt him, it is a childish outake on life. I dont believe there should be no punishment, just that punishment should be distributed so that you prevent harm to others, not get your petty revenge. Do we ever really so Moash do something brave. He always chooses somebody who he knows he is stronger than. And then like a child, he refuses to take responsibility for what he has done and tries to get his friend to kill himself. Moash is as bad as any brightlord. He attacks those who cannot protect themselves. Has he really done much to help anyone? He only works because it helps him ignore his guilt.

[Rorzikel]

I'm greatly amused by the similarities between Moash and a certain thieving crew leader's attitudes on the righteousness of violent revenge (even against those merely a part of the corrupt system to feed their families), and how often the exact same people can adore said crew leader and despise Moash simply because of how Brandon has written the PoV characters' relationships with the two of them and their levels of charisma. I have no doubt that if Moash had been a main character and people had to read about his grandparents' death from his perspective, that people would be clamoring for Elhokar's blood.

Edited July 9, 2022 by MyrmidonOfAchilles

[Frustration]

2 minutes ago, MyrmidonOfAchilles said:

I'm greatly amused by the similarities between Moash and a certain thieving crew leader's attitudes on the righteousness of violent revenge (even against those merely a part of the corrupt system to feed their families), and how often the exact same people can adore said crew leader and despise Moash simply because of how Brandon has written the PoV characters' relationships with the two of them and their levels of charisma. I have no doubt that if Moash had been a main character and people had to read about his grandparents' death from his perspective, that people would be clamoring for Elhokar's blood.

You are really using surface level simalarities there.

[Rorzikel]

Just now, Frustration said:

You are really using surface level simalarities there.

No, I don't think I am. Brandon himself describes Kelsier as having clinical psychopathy.

All this talk about revenge twisting you and always being wrong, and Kelsier is completely about murderous revenge against the nobility and the Lord Ruler for what happened to Mare and him.

[Frustration]

Just now, MyrmidonOfAchilles said:

No, I don't think I am. Brandon himself describes Kelsier as having clinical psychopathy.

This is the Stormlight forum so let's keep this to spoilers but

Spoiler

Marsh outrights says in HoA that it was never about revenge, Kelsier did it because it was what Mare wanted.

And Kelsier spared Elend's life, something Moash would never do.

 

[NameIess]

2 minutes ago, MyrmidonOfAchilles said:

No, I don't think I am. Brandon himself describes Kelsier as having clinical psychopathy.

All this talk about revenge twisting you and always being wrong, and Kelsier is completely about murderous revenge against the nobility and the Lord Ruler for what happened to Mare and him.

Kelsier and Moash are similar in their origin, but their journeys were very different.

Spoiler

Kelsier had people like Vin that convinced him that his unilateral hatred of nobles was wrong. Moash ignored those people and made as close to a deal with the devil as is possible in the Cosmere.

 

[HOID WANTS INSTANT NOODLES]

2 hours ago, MyrmidonOfAchilles said:

I'm greatly amused by the similarities between Moash and a certain thieving crew leader's attitudes on the righteousness of violent revenge (even against those merely a part of the corrupt system to feed their families), and how often the exact same people can adore said crew leader and despise Moash simply because of how Brandon has written the PoV characters' relationships with the two of them and their levels of charisma. I have no doubt that if Moash had been a main character and people had to read about his grandparents' death from his perspective, that people would be clamoring for Elhokar's blood.

Spoiler

I think that kelsier obviously extreme and that he is ambigous at best. Anyways the Lord Ruler and Elhokar are two completely different people. 

 

[Letryx13]

 

On 7/9/2022 at 5:43 PM, MyrmidonOfAchilles said:

I'm greatly amused by the similarities between Moash and a certain thieving crew leader's attitudes on the righteousness of violent revenge (even against those merely a part of the corrupt system to feed their families), and how often the exact same people can adore said crew leader and despise Moash simply because of how Brandon has written the PoV characters' relationships with the two of them and their levels of charisma. I have no doubt that if Moash had been a main character and people had to read about his grandparents' death from his perspective, that people would be clamoring for Elhokar's blood.

Elhokar was not a good king, but he was not a tyrant on the level of Rashek.  Elhokar recognized his failings later on and both tried to step down as king and almost became a radiant. As Dalinar himself discovers, there's a big difference between a man who recognizes his mistakes and owns up to them and someone who refuses to admit he made any and take responsibility.  In that regard, Moash is actually similar to Rashek (and Tarravangian).  I consider that to be a fatal flaw.

And, based on how good Brandon is about throwing curveballs at us about expectations, I wouldn't be surprised to find out that Moash's grandparents died of natural causes. While they died in prison, which was a mistake as Dalinar admitted, we have no proof that they would have lived even if left alone. They were 75 years old.  Not an unheard of time to die of old age.

On 7/9/2022 at 5:49 PM, MyrmidonOfAchilles said:

No, I don't think I am. Brandon himself describes Kelsier as having clinical psychopathy.

All this talk about revenge twisting you and always being wrong, and Kelsier is completely about murderous revenge against the nobility and the Lord Ruler for what happened to Mare and him.

Spoiler

 

Kelsier was manipulative and violent, but he also showed compassion and mercy and wasn't willing to work with people who weren't of good enough character. He justified his actions against the nobility by the nobility's actions against the skaa. To be fair, many of the noblemen probably deserved retribution. Kelsier's motivations were complicated, but I don't think it can be denied that he became much more bloodthirsty because of his desire for revenge.

Vin's last words to Kelsier before following Elend into the spiritual realm were to ask him how much of his actions were about helping the skaa, and how much was about revenge. She knew he was motivated by both, but was worried about what he was becoming, by letting revenge drive him.

 

On 7/9/2022 at 5:52 PM, Frustration said:

This is the Stormlight forum so let's keep this to spoilers but

  Hide contents

Marsh outrights says in HoA that it was never about revenge, Kelsier did it because it was what Mare wanted.

And Kelsier spared Elend's life, something Moash would never do.

 

I agree. Moash wouldn't spare somebody for someone else's sake, a major difference between him and Kelsier.  Moash has proven time and time again he only looks at the negative aspect of situations.

Spoiler

Marsh may say that Mare's wishes were Kelsier's motvation, but I don't think that's the whole story. He wanted revenge, and to prove that the Lord Ruler hadn't defeated him.  If Vin's last words to Kelsier were an accurate assessment, Kelsider's biggest motivation of all was pride.

 

On 7/9/2022 at 5:54 PM, Nameless said:

Kelsier and Moash are similar in their origin, but their journeys were very different.

  Hide contents

Kelsier had people like Vin that convinced him that his unilateral hatred of nobles was wrong. Moash ignored those people and made as close to a deal with the devil as is possible in the Cosmere.

 

I think the differences between them are how they channeled their anger and how they treated people close to them.  One of them launched himself into a crowd, toward almost certain death, all to rescue a young boy whom he called a friend. His last words (while alive) to his apprentice were a lecture about friendship. The other may have been willing to charge an army to rescue a high prince with his fellows, but he later was willing to kill a man who had helped free him and given him a vast treasure all to get his revenge.  Both had friends who tried to help them, but only one of them genuinely cared.

The single biggest difference between them is the choices they made, not their circumstances.

On 7/9/2022 at 1:36 PM, Oltux72 said:

You could be a hard core socialist and see Moash as the only member of Bridge 4 who did not sell out to the aristocracy. Mind you, it is not a position I would hold, but if you have a highly skewed perception, there is a kernel of truth to this. Kaladin is now technically a feudal lord with command over people who are not allowed to leave his lands. Moash stood up for slaves and eagerly accepts hard labour.

No. Simply no. Moash is a man who fought for his revenge. Who fought slavers, who could just have ended him then and there. He is not weak. He may be beaten, but everybody can be beaten, if too many things go wrong. That does not make him weak.
There are things you can say like that he is treating a friend with a mental illness in an inexcuseable way, but he is neither weak nor a coward.

Kaladin explicitly states that he doesn't want the "burden" of land ownership or rule. He recognizes the responsibility. And Moash didn't seem to want to help the humans that didn't have food against the humans that were hoarding food when he first got dropped off in that slave area in Alethkar. 

Being beaten is one thing, but giving up is another. He had the chance to own up to his mistakes, like attempting to kill Elhokar and nearly killing Kaladin, but he took the easier way out by blaming everyone else, and acting like he was forced into it. That is weakness, not strength.

On 7/9/2022 at 8:41 PM, HOID WANTS INSTANT NOODLES said:

  Hide contents

I think that kelsier obviously extreme and that he is ambigous at best. Anyways the Lord Ruler and Elhokar are two completely different people. 

 

Spoiler

Agreed. Kelsier's ambiguous nature is part of what makes him an appealing character, despite the terrible things he does. He shows both good and bad sides of himself. It's part of why it's believable to think he could become Thaidakar, and eventually become a villain later on down the line.

 

[cometaryorbit]

I think Moash was arguably justified in WoR, depending on one's personal political philosophy on when violently removing a bad ruler is warranted.

But by RoW definitely evil. After Elhokar is dead, basically everything he originally was fighting for is achieved (Elhokar is dead and replaced by Jasnah, who is working to remove slavery and the arbitrary power of the Alethi monarchy). So there's no reason to continue on that path.

Plus Odium is the kind of being that turns originally good causes into pointless destructive conflict - the Fused were once defending themselves justly but are now body-stealers living off the death of those they are supposedly fighting for.

So I think this is kind of an One Ring situation- Odium's help is sufficiently corrupting that no cause justifies accepting it, since it will turn to evil however good the original intentions were.

--

Another big difference between Moash and Kelsier is that we see in Secret History that

Spoiler

Once the greater external cosmic threat (Ruin in this case) becomes known to him, he focuses on opposing that. Moash didn't turn to opposing Odium, he took Odium's side.

Helping the Singers would be justified, helping the Fused (who are exploiting the Singers just as much as the humans ever did, literally consuming their lives to stay alive) not so much.

Edited July 14, 2022 by cometaryorbit

[+Oltux72]

On 14.7.2022 at 3:27 PM, Letryx13 said:

Kaladin explicitly states that he doesn't want the "burden" of land ownership or rule.

And that make it right? Whether he wanted it or not, he accepted it. He may claim mitigating circumstances, but let's be clear he cooperated with including the Knights Radiant into a feudal structure.

On 14.7.2022 at 3:27 PM, Letryx13 said:

He recognizes the responsibility. And Moash didn't seem to want to help the humans that didn't have food against the humans that were hoarding food when he first got dropped off in that slave area in Alethkar. 

This is putting Kaladin onto a pedestal for altruism.

On 14.7.2022 at 3:27 PM, Letryx13 said:

Being beaten is one thing, but giving up is another. He had the chance to own up to his mistakes, like attempting to kill Elhokar and nearly killing Kaladin, but he took the easier way out by blaming everyone else, and acting like he was forced into it. That is weakness, not strength.

  Reveal hidden contents

Agreed. Kelsier's ambiguous nature is part of what makes him an appealing character, despite the terrible things he does. He shows both good and bad sides of himself. It's part of why it's believable to think he could become Thaidakar, and eventually become a villain later on down the line.

 

Let me make one thing clear. Moash had every right to kill Elhokar. You may say that then he should not have sworn to protect him. Fair enough. But if you disagree about his basic right to avenge his grandparents then I am afraid there is no point in continuing.

 

On 14.7.2022 at 11:37 PM, cometaryorbit said:

I think Moash was arguably justified in WoR, depending on one's personal political philosophy on when violently removing a bad ruler is warranted.

But by RoW definitely evil. After Elhokar is dead, basically everything he originally was fighting for is achieved (Elhokar is dead and replaced by Jasnah, who is working to remove slavery and the arbitrary power of the Alethi monarchy). So there's no reason to continue on that path.

That is fair to say.

On 14.7.2022 at 11:37 PM, cometaryorbit said:

Plus Odium is the kind of being that turns originally good causes into pointless destructive conflict - the Fused were once defending themselves justly but are now body-stealers living off the death of those they are supposedly fighting for.

So I think this is kind of an One Ring situation- Odium's help is sufficiently corrupting that no cause justifies accepting it, since it will turn to evil however good the original intentions were.

You say that because you are not a Singer.

On 14.7.2022 at 11:37 PM, cometaryorbit said:

--

Another big difference between Moash and Kelsier is that we see in Secret History that

  Reveal hidden contents

Once the greater external cosmic threat (Ruin in this case) becomes known to him, he focuses on opposing that. Moash didn't turn to opposing Odium, he took Odium's side.

Helping the Singers would be justified, helping the Fused (who are exploiting the Singers just as much as the humans ever did, literally consuming their lives to stay alive) not so much.

Let me put it this way. You are judging Kaladin and Moash by different standards. Yes, it is clear that Moash did bad things and more and worse bad things than many others. That does not mean that his basic motivation was unjustified.

[Letryx13]

8 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

And that make it right? Whether he wanted it or not, he accepted it. He may claim mitigating circumstances, but let's be clear he cooperated with including the Knights Radiant into a feudal structure.

He doesn't have the authority to overrule that structure. And he also expresses the desire to "oust Alethkar's ruling class" but realizes they have bigger problems at the moment.

8 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

This is putting Kaladin onto a pedestal for altruism.

No it isn't. Society needs to have some sort of structure or leadership. The people at the top need to recognize the responsibility that comes with that position.  Otherwise you have people who want power for power's sake.

8 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Let me make one thing clear. Moash had every right to kill Elhokar. You may say that then he should not have sworn to protect him. Fair enough. But if you disagree about his basic right to avenge his grandparents then I am afraid there is no point in continuing.

Revenge is short sighted and selfish.  It accomplishes nothing but making a victim feel better and furthering chaos.  

8 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Let me put it this way. You are judging Kaladin and Moash by different standards. Yes, it is clear that Moash did bad things and more and worse bad things than many others. That does not mean that his basic motivation was unjustified.

No, if Kaladin had gone through with Killing Elhokar, he would have been the same as Moash. Something Kaladin himself admits, when he says he's no different from Moash, just before he swears the third ideal.   And again, revenge is stupid.  Particularly in this case, where we have no evidence that being in the dungeons is what actually killed Moash's grandparents.

[Frustration]

8 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

And that make it right? Whether he wanted it or not, he accepted it. He may claim mitigating circumstances, but let's be clear he cooperated with including the Knights Radiant into a feudal structure.

1. Is that even a problem?
2. Not the Radinats, just him.

8 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

You say that because you are not a Singer.

No it's just a fact. Odium doesn't care about the Singer's cause and never will. And the majority Fused have objectively lost intrest in winning for the Singers, they want to win, just to win.

[+Oltux72]

20 minutes ago, Letryx13 said:

Revenge is short sighted and selfish.  It accomplishes nothing but making a victim feel better and furthering chaos. 

On the contrary. Revenge is the basis of every civilization. Without revenge people doing as they please are rewarded. There is no such genuine thing as justice. Justice is a formalized form of revenge.

17 minutes ago, Frustration said:

No it's just a fact. Odium doesn't care about the Singer's cause and never will. And the majority Fused have objectively lost intrest in winning for the Singers, they want to win, just to win.

True, but only true in that direction. To an ordinary Singer a victory is a victory regardless of whom or what the Fused intend to win for.

[Frustration]

1 minute ago, Oltux72 said:

True, but only true in that direction. To an ordinary Singer a victory is a victory regardless of whom or what the Fused intend to win for.

After the Fused propaganda efforts maybe.

Before that not a single Parshmen attacked a human.

[+Oltux72]

1 minute ago, Frustration said:

After the Fused propaganda efforts maybe.

Before that not a single Parshmen attacked a human.

Yes. They were sold like pigs. Well, horses. They did not eat them. That is before that they were absolutely beaten.