Moash poll

[Innovation]

So, what are everyone’s views about Moash, especially considering recent actions seen in the preview chapters? I understand there is a lot of grey area; perhaps you think that Moash is a good, but misguided, person. Or perhaps you think he is corrupted by the Unmade. Or maybe you can’t decide.

As for the second question, the options once again have a fair bit of ambiguity. If Moash doesn’t get redeemed, he might just die without much of a conflict. Or perhaps Moash will live/die unredeemed, having destroyed Bridge Four and wreaked havoc everywhere. 

I am interested to see what everyone thinks about these questions. 

Edited November 21, 2020 by Innovation
Clarification and more options.

[LewsTherinTelescope]

I think that, before Chapter 8, I would say Moash had some justification. After Chapter 8, I can only say he's a horrible person.

I expect him to be given a shot at redemption, but not take it. 50/50 on if I expect him to survive the front half, but will probably die by Book 10 at the latest. 

[NameIess]

I think that Moash is a good person who has been corrupted by a desire for justice.

[LuckyJim]

I think Moash as a character is a more complicated subject than most of the people involved with the discourse realize. It's hard to say whether or not he's good or bad, both due to the elements influencing his beliefs and actions, and the issues surrounding Roshar in general making it difficult to determine what is and isn't right.

Since this is the RoW forums, I know everyone's going to be talking about chapter 8, but even in this case I don't think it's as simple as Moash just trying to psychologically torture Kaladin. Moash has been heavily influenced by the Unmade at this point, he's not operating on the same logic as everyone else. At this point Moash believes humanity (with a few exceptions) is corrupt beyond repair, and ultimately doomed due to the fact that the Everstorm makes Odium's forces undying. The war will continue until one side is wiped out, and the final victor should be the singers. He knows that Kaladin pushes himself to save everyone, and carries everyone's death as a personal burden. The only way he could end the pain this puts him in is to give himself up to Odium, or end it himself, and he knows Kaladin well enough to know that he won't give away his pain. Moash sincerely, without a hint of spite or malice, belives that this is the only way to end Kaladin's suffering.

As for whether or not he will be redeemed, well, I think it's a little more complicated than it appears at first glance. What would need to happen for him to be redeemed, I mean, isn't it good to be fighting for the singers? Personally, I think Moash is on the right track but misguided, he's fighting for the right people, but for the wrong reasons. His "redemption" (in my eyes) wouldn't involve returning to the human coalition, but allying himself with Venli's faction instead. He'd make a powerful ally, he's practically a member of the Heavenly Ones and seems to be of similar rank to the Fused, and the end of Oathbringer seemed to imply he was gaining a strong influence with some of the regular singers.

Edited November 4, 2020 by LuckyJim

[LewsTherinTelescope]

3 hours ago, LuckyJim said:

Moash has been heavily influenced by the Unmade at this point, he's not operating on the same logic as everyone else.

I mean, the whole point of Oathbringer was that that's not an excuse at all. 

[mariapapadia she/her]

I think Moash is being read just as Brandon intended & is a well written character.

That being said... HE NEEDS TO BE SQUASHED LIKE THE VERY DISGUSTING COCKROACH HE IS!!!!

[Honorless he/him]

Moash isn't a "bad" person, not really, more of a hopeless one but he really is not in a headspace to be any kind of "good" either. So I chose neutral and I think he'll get hope again and that hope would be quashed, he'll die redeeming himself, believing his final action to be pointless but going through with it anyway because it's the right thing to do. A parallel, of sorts, of his actions at the end of Oathbringer.

But I'd very much like for him to be saved somehow.

[LuckyJim]

1 hour ago, beewall said:

I mean, the whole point of Oathbringer was that that's not an excuse at all. 

I'm not saying that it's not bad that he told Kaladin to kill himself, I'm saying that he didn't do it with malicious intent, as backwards as that sounds.

The point I'm trying to make here is that particular instance isn't really enough for me to say that Moash has lost any redeeming qualities. He still has great respect for Kaladin and is trying to help him not hurt him, even if the result is morally reprehensible from our perspective.

Edited November 4, 2020 by LuckyJim

[LewsTherinTelescope]

3 minutes ago, LuckyJim said:

I'm not saying that it's not bad that he told Kaladin to kill himself, I'm saying that he didn't do it with malicious intent, as backwards as that sounds.

The point I'm trying to make here is that particular instance isn't really enough for me to say that Moash has lost any redeeming qualities. He still has great respect for Kaladin and is trying to help him not hurt him, even if the result is morally reprehensible from our perspective.

I don't think he has no redeeming qualities. But I would still call him a terrible person, no matter the intentions he had. 

[mariapapadia she/her]

Yes, Moash isn’t inherently bad, but up until what point one’s trauma & influence excuses one’s actions? He’s influenced, not mind washed/controlled. 

As for the redemption.. There’s a certain breaking point after which things can’t be the same. Yes, you can understand one’s actions & circumstances, but that doesn’t mean you connect to them or that doesn’t leave a mark. Even IRL when someone hurts someone else it takes a long journey to get over that & It’s not always a guarantee. While I trust Brandon as an author, I feel like At this point Moash would need a whole book for that & why spend So much time on that when there are so many other great characters we can explore? 

[+Oltux72 he/him]

10 hours ago, Nameless said:

I think that Moash is a good person who has been corrupted by a desire for justice.

Well, what was he supposed to do once Kaladin reneged?  He could only hope that the coconspirators would not try to eliminate him.

It is Kaladin's fault.

[NameIess]

5 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Well, what was he supposed to do once Kaladin reneged?  He could only hope that the coconspirators would not try to eliminate him.

Which is why he joined the parshmen, killed Elhokar, and tried to convince Kaladin to kill himself? Kaladin would have protected Moash if he hadn't joined the conspirators.

[CamilleDesmoulins]

I think Moash is a misguided person. There wasn’t really anything wrong with the WoR plot (besides the fact that it wouldn’t have actually helped the darkeyes, just replaced one lighteyes with another). Elhokar was a bad king and Moash had personally suffered because of his corrupt and arbitrary rule. It was just unlucky that Kaladin’s oaths meant he had to protect Elhokar.

Its after killing Elhokar, when he starts giving up his pain to the Unmade, that’s the issue. He becomes nothing more than a mindless servant of Odium.

[Malim he/him]

I have a bit of a different take on Moash.  I see him and Szeth as two faces of the same coin.  Both did the things that they did because they felt that they had no other course of action.  Szeth followed his masters' plans explicitly because he believed that he was Truthless, and therefore somehow even stronger than honor bound to do so.  Moash went down the path he did because he believed that he was bound by family honor to kill Elhokar and overthrow the lighteyes.  Both did claim that they had no choice in the matter.  It doesn't matter that they both were flawed in their thinking, it is what they truly believed.

The parallel continues in RoW.  Both Moash and Szeth continue to push responsibility for their present actions on someone else.  In Moash's case its Odium, in Szeth's, Dalinar.  In both cases, they continue to disclaim any true responsibility for what they do.  In both cases it is an arguement of "I'm just following orders."  In Szeth's case, he is lucky in that Dalinar, as he currently is, does genuinely seem to be a good person who wants to protect his people, while for Moash, Odium obviously doesn't.  Note that both cases can lead to abuses:  Even Dalinar might require terrible things in the name of "greater good."

So the question is this:  Does Moash deserve redemption?  For that matter does Szeth?  To say one does, but not the other is to miss the point.  Second question:  If redemption is offered, would either one accept it?  Honestly, I don't think either would unless they had some sort of epiphany about their own culpability.  So far I haven't seen evidence of that from either of them.

TLDR; Moash is misguided, but no more so than Szeth, and neither of them will be redeemed unless they admit their own responsibility.

[Pattern he/him]

In WoW Moash established a Connection between Odium and myself. In the sense that I HATE Moash even more.

[NameIess]

You know what? I think my vote has aged really well.

[Kingsdaughter613 she/her]

14 hours ago, Nameless said:

You know what? I think my vote has aged really well.

Mine too.

[Innovation]

RIP Teft. 

[Lament on the Wind she/her]

I Really hate Moash.Soon there will be Moreash...Mash(-ed potato?)(I hope that I didn't offend the Moash likers out there and if I did I apologize )

[Wandering Drow]

Honestly, Moash is a very interesting character. From a reader’s perspective I absolutely despise him with every fiber of my being. He is terrible and I want him to be destroyed. 
However, from a writer’s perspective, I absolutely love Moash. He’s so interesting how he is misguided and has done terrible things for a cause he genuinely believes in. Sure, he has done some awful things that are 100% inexcusable, but that’s what makes him interesting. He has so much potential to grow and learn, and honestly despite how much I hate him I want him to get redeemed, at least somewhat. 
If I’m being honest, I doubt he’ll be a hero. He may not even get redeemed, just because there are so many other characters to focus on. I do genuinely hope that he gets some sort of redemption, or at least learns somewhat, because that would make him an amazing character. I don’t want him to be an Amaram: someone who does bad things for a kinda good reason but dies without learning or doing anything good. I want Moash to end the series having learned that it’s good to feel, good to have pain, and learning to see things from the perspective of others, just as we are having to do with him. 

[Letryx13]

I've thought about this a lot, and I think Moash had two shots at redemption and threw away them both. First, when he arrived in the city before marching to Kholinar, and second after he killed Teft.  The first time, he chose to blame everyone and everything besides himself for what he did, saying it wasn't his fault.  He chose to only see the bad around him, and to put the worst possible spin on it. He hoped the upheaval would cast the light eyes down, and was disgusted that it hadn't happened. The second time, after killing Teft and then temporarily being disconnected from Odium, he couldn't say he was sorry for killing Teft. Moash regretted the pain it caused him, no his friend's death itself.

I'll never say that someone is completely beyond redemption, but in order for someone this far gone to be redeemed, something pretty dang miraculous would have to happen. And I really don't think that's going to happen.  I have some ideas for how to appropriately punish Moash, but that's a different matter.

Also, two Moash related plot twists that might happen in book five.  First, his grandparents actually committed the crime Rashone accused them of.  Or second, they died of natural causes, something completely unrelated to their imprisonment, and would have been dead the all the same.  I know Dalinar called what happen to them a mistake, but still.

On 11/4/2020 at 2:09 AM, LuckyJim said:

I'm not saying that it's not bad that he told Kaladin to kill himself, I'm saying that he didn't do it with malicious intent, as backwards as that sounds.

The point I'm trying to make here is that particular instance isn't really enough for me to say that Moash has lost any redeeming qualities. He still has great respect for Kaladin and is trying to help him not hurt him, even if the result is morally reprehensible from our perspective.

He was trying to get Kaladin to kill himself to try and validate his own actions.  He's seeking approval from someone he respects as a way to justify what he's doing.  In his head, it's like he's saying, "If Kaladin chooses to give up too, it must be ok that I did". Taravangian does something similar with Dalinar in a later chapter.

On 11/3/2020 at 8:13 PM, Nameless said:

I think that Moash is a good person who has been corrupted by a desire for justice.

He didn't want justice. He wanted revenge. As Syl stated, that's what revenge does. It twists you until you're something else.

On 11/4/2020 at 6:59 AM, Oltux72 said:

Well, what was he supposed to do once Kaladin reneged?  He could only hope that the coconspirators would not try to eliminate him.

It is Kaladin's fault.

If Moash had sided with Kaladin in that hallway with Graves and the unconcious Elhokar, Kaladin would probably have kept quiet about Moash's previous involvement with them.  After all, Graves was still intending to kill Elhokar, and Moash would have been what was stopping him.  The king would have thought Moash was a hero.  Instead, Moash chose his own petty vengeance over the new family he'd gained in Bridge Four.

On 11/4/2020 at 10:50 PM, Malim said:

I have a bit of a different take on Moash.  I see him and Szeth as two faces of the same coin.  Both did the things that they did because they felt that they had no other course of action.  Szeth followed his masters' plans explicitly because he believed that he was Truthless, and therefore somehow even stronger than honor bound to do so.  Moash went down the path he did because he believed that he was bound by family honor to kill Elhokar and overthrow the lighteyes.  Both did claim that they had no choice in the matter.  It doesn't matter that they both were flawed in their thinking, it is what they truly believed.

The parallel continues in RoW.  Both Moash and Szeth continue to push responsibility for their present actions on someone else.  In Moash's case its Odium, in Szeth's, Dalinar.  In both cases, they continue to disclaim any true responsibility for what they do.  In both cases it is an arguement of "I'm just following orders."  In Szeth's case, he is lucky in that Dalinar, as he currently is, does genuinely seem to be a good person who wants to protect his people, while for Moash, Odium obviously doesn't.  Note that both cases can lead to abuses:  Even Dalinar might require terrible things in the name of "greater good."

So the question is this:  Does Moash deserve redemption?  For that matter does Szeth?  To say one does, but not the other is to miss the point.  Second question:  If redemption is offered, would either one accept it?  Honestly, I don't think either would unless they had some sort of epiphany about their own culpability.  So far I haven't seen evidence of that from either of them.

TLDR; Moash is misguided, but no more so than Szeth, and neither of them will be redeemed unless they admit their own responsibility.

I see it more as a comparison between Moash and Dalinar. Both did terrible things, both were influenced by Odium, but one owned up to his mistakes and accepted responsibility. The other did not. As for the comparison to Szeth, you've got a point, he does place blame mostly on the Shin who named him TruthLess, but I think he accepts at least some of the blame too.  

8 hours ago, Wandering Drow said:

Honestly, Moash is a very interesting character. From a reader’s perspective I absolutely despise him with every fiber of my being. He is terrible and I want him to be destroyed. 
However, from a writer’s perspective, I absolutely love Moash. He’s so interesting how he is misguided and has done terrible things for a cause he genuinely believes in. Sure, he has done some awful things that are 100% inexcusable, but that’s what makes him interesting. He has so much potential to grow and learn, and honestly despite how much I hate him I want him to get redeemed, at least somewhat. 
If I’m being honest, I doubt he’ll be a hero. He may not even get redeemed, just because there are so many other characters to focus on. I do genuinely hope that he gets some sort of redemption, or at least learns somewhat, because that would make him an amazing character. I don’t want him to be an Amaram: someone who does bad things for a kinda good reason but dies without learning or doing anything good. I want Moash to end the series having learned that it’s good to feel, good to have pain, and learning to see things from the perspective of others, just as we are having to do with him. 

I think Moash is supposed to be an example of what happens when someone let's a desire for revenge consume them.  Amamaram is more an example of what happens when someone deludes themselves that what they are doing is righteous; the ends justifying the means, and so on.

[NameIess]

1 hour ago, Letryx13 said:

He didn't want justice. He wanted revenge. As Syl stated, that's what revenge does. It twists you until you're something else.

Let me revise my statement: Moash is a good person with a corrupted sense of justice.

[+Oltux72 he/him]

5 hours ago, Letryx13 said:

If Moash had sided with Kaladin in that hallway with Graves and the unconcious Elhokar, Kaladin would probably have kept quiet about Moash's previous involvement with them.  After all, Graves was still intending to kill Elhokar, and Moash would have been what was stopping him.  The king would have thought Moash was a hero.  Instead, Moash chose his own petty vengeance over the new family he'd gained in Bridge Four.

At the risk of repeating myself: Kaladin broke his word. There is no way around that.
You are suggesting that Moash do the same with the man whom he had given his word to.

[Letryx13]

42 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

At the risk of repeating myself: Kaladin broke his word. There is no way around that.
You are suggesting that Moash do the same with the man whom he had given his word to.

Kaladin chose to do what he knew to be right, eventually.  And he swore an oath to protect people who couldn't protect themselves long before agreeing to anything with Moash. Wouldn't the earlier promise, especially a divine oath, take priority?

As for Moash, his word to Graves didn't mean anything to him. He didn't care about Alethkar, he just wanted revenge. But even so, what exactly did Moash promise Graves? All I remember him promising Graves was that Kaladin was trustworthy. Which is true.

But are you suggesting that Moash was right to do what he did? Betray the man that had not only led him to freedom from his enslavement, been his best friend, and given him a weapon and armor worth a small kingdom and try to kill him? The man he said would always be his captain, that he would never outrank?

[AquaRegia he/him]

I love Moash as a character.  All the best villains in fiction have believable backstories and motivations... the "bad guys" are always the "heroes" in their own stories, e.g., Taravangian, Raboniel, and coming soon, Jasnah and/or Hoid! 

Were we not all on the same page with Moash at the beginning, when he was filled with rage at the injustice of Lighteyes rule?  Did the Lighteyes, in fact, deserve to wield the power of literal life and death over the Darkeyes just because?  Was Elhokar, in fact, deserving of his position and worthy of the loyalty of good people during WoK and WoR?  That was such a realistic crisis of conscience for both Kaladin and Moash, and neither of them can claim to have resolved it without fault.  Every decision Moash has made has been, to me, a rational one, based on his previous experiences and emotional states.  And he has not blindly maintained the same position in the face of changing evidence; now that he "knows" ALL of humanity is fatally flawed and doomed, he's doing the best he can.

Yes, I hate the things he has done, but I love the ride he's taking us on, and I can't wait to see where we go next!

That said, I expect him to die with, at best, very minor redemption.