Moash poll

[Frustration]

Just now, Oltux72 said:

Yes. They were sold like pigs. Well, horses. They did not eat them. That is before that they were absolutely beaten.

I'm afraid I don't understand.

[cometaryorbit]

11 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

You say that because you are not a Singer.

 

Well sure most of the Singers currently disagree. But it seems to me that the living (non-Fused) Singers are being scammed by the Fused.

The Fused literally require the sacrifice of Singer lives to live themselves, and they're mostly insane.

They say they're fighting for the Singers to get their own back, but how plausible is it that the Fused (if they won) would actually let the Singers live free, vs being under the sway of arbitrary mostly insane god-kings?

A very few like Leshwi maybe, but they are an extreme minority among the Fused.

2 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

 To an ordinary Singer a victory is a victory regardless of whom or what the Fused intend to win for.

Only because they still believe the Fused are fighting for them.

But it's not really a victory for the average Singers, in the sense of them gaining anything by it. I can't see life under the Fused being better for the average (non-Regal) living Singer than what, say, Dalinar could offer them. There are Singer Radiants now, the situation is totally different from when every human thought parshmen were just zombies.

And absent Odium the Singers could have their own nation without need to fight. There is a very large part of eastern Roshar which is unclaimed by human nations, far far larger than the Shattered Plains area inhabited by the Parshendi.

[Duxredux]

On 7/9/2022 at 3:43 PM, MyrmidonOfAchilles said:

I'm greatly amused by the similarities between Moash and a certain thieving crew leader's attitudes on the righteousness of violent revenge (even against those merely a part of the corrupt system to feed their families), and how often the exact same people can adore said crew leader and despise Moash simply because of how Brandon has written the PoV characters' relationships with the two of them and their levels of charisma. I have no doubt that if Moash had been a main character and people had to read about his grandparents' death from his perspective, that people would be clamoring for Elhokar's blood.

Well... spoiler for the referenced crew leader:

Spoiler

I've referenced this on another thread, but foundational to Kelsier is Brandon pitching the idea of someone had they been in a different context and made different choices could have been a villain. There is a darkness to Kelsier that he has embraced, and Moash has similar evils that he has embraced (though we'll see how deeply). There are quite a few similarities between them, but I like Kelsier more precisely because in his story he made better decisions than Moash did. I disagree with both of their murderous tendencies and views on how class disparity should be addressed, and I always was uncomfortable with how easily and brutally they kill, but Kelsier sacrificed, built up, and gave more to his friends than Moash has done thus far. Kelsier understands far more about friendship than Moash does, and many of the readers love him for it. It is a value judgement, but I will almost always like the character that supports and saves their friends over the one that murders their friends in cold blood, no matter their ideology or background because of what they choose to do. Moash's story isn't over yet, so we'll see what he chooses to do and if my opinion changes.

 

[Letryx13]

On 7/18/2022 at 1:08 PM, Oltux72 said:

On the contrary. Revenge is the basis of every civilization. Without revenge people doing as they please are rewarded. There is no such genuine thing as justice. Justice is a formalized form of revenge.

That makes absolutely no sense. Justice is a subjective concept, to be sure, but it is essential to order.  People who want revenge just want to hurt the person that hurt them.  They often don't care what it costs or who else it hurts, as long as they get what they want.  That is chaos.  You can't base a civilization on chaos.

[Frustration]

47 minutes ago, Letryx13 said:

That makes absolutely no sense. Justice is a subjective concept, to be sure, but it is essential to order.  People who want revenge just want to hurt the person that hurt them.  They often don't care what it costs or who else it hurts, as long as they get what they want.  That is chaos.  You can't base a civilization on chaos.

Not only that but revenge is personal, Justice has a separation between the victim and the people who bring justice.

[+Oltux72]

11 hours ago, Frustration said:

Not only that but revenge is personal, Justice has a separation between the victim and the people who bring justice.

Exactly. Formalized. Nevertheless it is revenge. For rules to exist there must be punishment. Locking up, let alone execute, a murderer or a rapist will not undo a murder or a rape. We pursue such people at considerable expense despite that having no practical worth. We do so for deterrence. Justice is a refinemnt that allows deterrence of a community in defense of its rules against lawbreakers.

[Letryx13]

On 7/18/2022 at 3:48 PM, cometaryorbit said:

Well sure most of the Singers currently disagree. But it seems to me that the living (non-Fused) Singers are being scammed by the Fused.

The Fused literally require the sacrifice of Singer lives to live themselves, and they're mostly insane.

They say they're fighting for the Singers to get their own back, but how plausible is it that the Fused (if they won) would actually let the Singers live free, vs being under the sway of arbitrary mostly insane god-kings?

A very few like Leshwi maybe, but they are an extreme minority among the Fused.

Agreed. My initial reaction to the Fuzed was that they were using the Singers and except for those like Leshwi, nothing has really changed that impression.

On 7/18/2022 at 3:48 PM, cometaryorbit said:

Only because they still believe the Fused are fighting for them.

But it's not really a victory for the average Singers, in the sense of them gaining anything by it. I can't see life under the Fused being better for the average (non-Regal) living Singer than what, say, Dalinar could offer them. There are Singer Radiants now, the situation is totally different from when every human thought parshmen were just zombies.

And absent Odium the Singers could have their own nation without need to fight. There is a very large part of eastern Roshar which is unclaimed by human nations, far far larger than the Shattered Plains area inhabited by the Parshendi.

I agree. If the Singers were to cooperate with the Radiants and Dalinar, they'd probably be better off than under Fuzed rule.  Odium is the main driving force pushing the singers to attack humans.  They'd probably have been able to negotiate peace long ago without his influence.

On 7/19/2022 at 10:52 AM, Duxredux said:

Well... spoiler for the referenced crew leader:

  Reveal hidden contents

I've referenced this on another thread, but foundational to Kelsier is Brandon pitching the idea of someone had they been in a different context and made different choices could have been a villain. There is a darkness to Kelsier that he has embraced, and Moash has similar evils that he has embraced (though we'll see how deeply). There are quite a few similarities between them, but I like Kelsier more precisely because in his story he made better decisions than Moash did. I disagree with both of their murderous tendencies and views on how class disparity should be addressed, and I always was uncomfortable with how easily and brutally they kill, but Kelsier sacrificed, built up, and gave more to his friends than Moash has done thus far. Kelsier understands far more about friendship than Moash does, and many of the readers love him for it. It is a value judgement, but I will almost always like the character that supports and saves their friends over the one that murders their friends in cold blood, no matter their ideology or background because of what they choose to do. Moash's story isn't over yet, so we'll see what he chooses to do and if my opinion changes.

 

Hard agree.  Moash repeatedly threw people away to get what he wanted.  He didn't value his friends, only what they could do for him.  A certain crew leader valued his friends above all else. And their choices define them. I think you summed up comparing and contrasting the two pretty well.

18 hours ago, Frustration said:

Not only that but revenge is personal, Justice has a separation between the victim and the people who bring justice.

I think that's probably a necessary element to it as well. That separation helps maintain order.

6 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Exactly. Formalized. Nevertheless it is revenge. For rules to exist there must be punishment. Locking up, let alone execute, a murderer or a rapist will not undo a murder or a rape. We pursue such people at considerable expense despite that having no practical worth. We do so for deterrence. Justice is a refinemnt that allows deterrence of a community in defense of its rules against lawbreakers.

If you're doing something to deter others from committing the same act, then you're not enacting revenge. Revenge is just you hurting someone who hurt you. The person committing it is doing to it make themselves feel better.  Deterring criminal acts is meant to protect people from others who might commit those same acts. This is actually part of why I think the SkyBreakers and WindRunners have more common ground than they think.  While another of Sanderson's books calls into question how effective this deterrence actually is, there can be little doubt that some form of deterrence is essential to maintaining order.

[cometaryorbit]

Another thought on the Kelsier vs Moash thing: Kelsier died before the Final Empire was actually overthrown, and being dead & in the Cognitive Realm forced him to massively change his methods.

Arguably Kelsier died soon enough to prevent him from becoming a villain. If Moash had died at the end of book 2, I think he'd be way more sympathetic.