The Recreance

[Amaror]

Tanavast is the man who held the Honor Shard, also known as the Almighty in Vorinism. He is dead, though, which means when Kaladin says "honor is dead" it's more true than he realizes.

 

Right. I always mistake the two. Both of them Start with T. Tanavast was the Shardholder and how was the Herald named again? The one that was found by Hoid then brought to the Plains?

[Ansalem]

Right. I always mistake the two. Both of them Start with T. Tanavast was the Shardholder and how was the Herald named again? The one that was found by Hoid then brought to the Plains?

 

That's Talenelat (or Talenel or Taln).

 

There's also Taravangian, king of Kharbranth in case it wasn't already hard enough to keep track of. 

[DreamEternal]

Yeah, in the first Stormfather scene I read him calling Kaladin "child of Taravangian", wich was seriously weird(althought there is a theory out there that his mother is a bastard daughter of a Kharbaranthian nobleman, so...)

Edited August 22, 2015 by CognitivePulsePattern

[Awesomness]

Yeah, in the first Stormfather scene I read him calling Kaladin "child of Taravangian", wich was seriously weird(althought there is a theory out there that his mother is a bastard daughter of a Kharbaranthian nobleman, so...)

In fact, the stormfather calls him "Child of Tanavast".

[natc]

. . . I think he knows.

[DreamEternal]

Yes, I do.

[Sophiina]

Sorry if this is considered a necropost (I did search through before I posted anything) but this is also my first post on the forums! Hihi.

 

So, I am assuming that the First Ideal only applies to the Knights Radiant and not to the Heralds, since the Heralds would have broken that First Ideal when they left Taln (sacrificing one for the greater good). Do you think that the Knights Radiant might have been a little annoyed about that when/if they found out?

[Yata]

Sorry if this is considered a necropost (I did search through before I posted anything) but this is also my first post on the forums! Hihi.

 

So, I am assuming that the First Ideal only applies to the Knights Radiant and not to the Heralds, since the Heralds would have broken that First Ideal when they left Taln (sacrificing one for the greater good). Do you think that the Knights Radiant might have been a little annoyed about that when/if they found out?

Welcome !

 

The Heralds used a different kind of bond to obtain surgebinding powers.

Each one was bond to an Honorblade and simple hold the Blade give them the Surgebinder power. Like Syl said "there isn't any Spren's control".

Edited September 12, 2015 by Yata

[Sophiina]

Welcome !

 

The Heralds used a different kind of bond to obtain surgebinding powers.

Each one was bond to an Honorblade and simple hold the Blade give them the Surgebinder power. Like Syl said "there isn't any Spren's control".

 

Thanks! And yes, very much so - but do you think that they might still be expected to follow the ideal despite it not being a source of their surgebinding?

[Yata]

Thanks! And yes, very much so - but do you think that they might still be expected to follow the ideal despite it not being a source of their surgebinding?

Indeed no!

I don't know if you read World of Radiance.

The Ideal came after.

In the beginning Honor gave to the Heralds the Honorblade and they obtained power from the Blades.

.....time passed.......

The Spren understud how Honor does it, and they try to copy that ability. The 10 order, the Ideals and probably other stuff are all made by the Spren's Nature and their bond.

The Honorblade do not required any ethics or similar, You hold one and you became a surgebinder. Like you saw with Szeth.

Edited September 12, 2015 by Yata

[Sophiina]

Indeed no!

I don't know if you read World of Radiance.

The Ideal came after.

In the beginning Honor gave to the Heralds the Honorblade and they obtained power from the Blades.

.....time passed.......

The Spren understud how Honor does it, and they try to copy that ability. The 10 order, the Ideals and probably other stuff are all made by the Spren's Nature and their bond.

The Honorblade do not required any ethics or similar, You hold one and you became a surgebinder. Like you saw with Szeth.

Yes, I have read both of the books - but my question isn't with regards to some magical demand that they follow it... just whether you might expect them to follow it. Might the Knights Radiant whose Orders were created by the Heralds, come to expect their founders to follow the same First Ideal that they do?

[Yata]

Yes, I have read both of the books - but my question isn't with regards to some magical demand that they follow it... just whether you might expect them to follow it. Might the Knights Radiant whose Orders were created by the Heralds, come to expect their founders to follow the same First Ideal that they do?

The KR aren't created by the Herald.

They began to "spawn" without any "pianification" and sudderly Roshar was full of surgebinders.

Then Ishi, one of the Herald, thinking about the damage of many Surgebinders without controll, offered Himseft to became the patron of the KR with his own Surges, the Bondsmith. And He invited the other Heralds to do the same thing.

But before of this patronage herald-order the KR had their oaths and anything else.

[natc]

. . . you literally claimed that the KR were not created by the heralds and then proceeded to explain that the heralds founded and organized the KR, completely contradicting yourself and supporting that last bit of what he said.

"Knight Radiant" is a title associated with a man-made organization. The only thing the Heralds had no hand in the creation of in this conversation is surgebinders. Sophiina appears to be talking about the Orders, not the people specifically.

As for the Heralds, I do believe back then they at least were embodiments of those . . . attributes of some kind, whether a term exists escapes me. It's a Vorinism thing. Like leading/protecting for Jezrien and creativity/honesty for Shalash. They seem to align with the more detailed oaths.

Edited September 12, 2015 by natc

[Yata]

. . . you literally claimed that the KR were not created by the heralds and then proceeded to explain that the heralds founded and organized the KR, completely contradicting yourself and supporting that last bit of what he said.

"Knight Radiant" is a title associated with a man-made organization. The only thing the Heralds had no hand in the creation of in this conversation is surgebinders. Sophiina appears to be talking about the Orders, not the people specifically.

As for the Heralds, I do believe back then they at least were embodiments of those . . . attributes of some kind, whether a term exists escapes me. It's a Vorinism thing.

Yes indeed.

For me KR is simple "surgebinder-by-spren-bond", therefore I used this term in the previous post.

It's just a simple way to distinguish from Honorblade and Spren surgebinders.

Sorry for the misunderstanding

Edited September 12, 2015 by Yata

[Malim]

Yes, I have read both of the books - but my question isn't with regards to some magical demand that they follow it... just whether you might expect them to follow it. Might the Knights Radiant whose Orders were created by the Heralds, come to expect their founders to follow the same First Ideal that they do?

 

Personally, I think you are right on target.  Though the Heralds were not required to make or follow any oaths, I think that the orders would most definitely have expected them to do so.  In a way the KR were founded as an imitation of the Heralds, and as such they would have been seen as being the paragons of the ideals.  Obviously they were not.

 

I've actually seen theories around that the revelation that the Heralds had repudiated the Oath Pact, and were therefore not following any ideals, directly lead the the KR losing faith and caused the Recreance.  Seems as good a theory as any to me.

[natc]

They probably were paragons of their ideals initially, to be honest. But after centuries to millennia of war and torture, you can't really blame them for giving up.

[Sophiina]

Thank you all, and I'm sorry for any misunderstanding that might have come about. =\

 

I don't think that it's solely the realisation that the Heralds broke their Pact that might have caused the Recreance, but the fact that finding out that the Heralds broke the pact that started to cause issues for the Knights Radiant themselves. We know that on Roshar ideas and thoughts are a powerful thing - hence why the spren exist. We also know that the Nahel Bond would not be able to survive through 'legal technicalities', so if a Knights Radiant had betrayed their oaths then the spren would start to die. I think that, after discovering that the Heralds broke the Oathpact they would no longer be able to follow the Heralds.

 

Do we know if Odium itself started to corrupt the Heralds due to how much time it had to spend with them between Desolations?

 

Edit:

Just a quick following up to my statement, and purely speculation, but what if Desolations are caused by the breaking of Oaths? We know that the Desolations only began once the Heralds 'broke' to the torture that they were subject to. This could be seen as a weakening of Honor by not being hono(u)rable - and thus weakening the thing that is binding Odium. It would also suggest that the Recreance led to the death of Honor himself, due to the sheer number of Oaths that were broken in one go.

 

If it can be shown that the First Ideal is not possible to be adhered to by the Knights Radiant, and it is inevitable that the Ideal will be broken, then it would also suggest that the existence of the Knights Radiant are partly a cause for the Desolations.

Edited September 13, 2015 by WeiryWriter
please do not double post, use the edit feature

[ParadoxicalZen]

Thank you all, and I'm sorry for any misunderstanding that might have come about. =\

 

I don't think that it's solely the realisation that the Heralds broke their Pact that might have caused the Recreance, but the fact that finding out that the Heralds broke the pact that started to cause issues for the Knights Radiant themselves. We know that on Roshar ideas and thoughts are a powerful thing - hence why the spren exist. We also know that the Nahel Bond would not be able to survive through 'legal technicalities', so if a Knights Radiant had betrayed their oaths then the spren would start to die. I think that, after discovering that the Heralds broke the Oathpact they would no longer be able to follow the Heralds.

 

Do we know if Odium itself started to corrupt the Heralds due to how much time it had to spend with them between Desolations?

 

Edit:

Just a quick following up to my statement, and purely speculation, but what if Desolations are caused by the breaking of Oaths? We know that the Desolations only began once the Heralds 'broke' to the torture that they were subject to. This could be seen as a weakening of Honor by not being hono(u)rable - and thus weakening the thing that is binding Odium. It would also suggest that the Recreance led to the death of Honor himself, due to the sheer number of Oaths that were broken in one go.

 

If it can be shown that the First Ideal is not possible to be adhered to by the Knights Radiant, and it is inevitable that the Ideal will be broken, then it would also suggest that the existence of the Knights Radiant are partly a cause for the Desolations.

 

http://www.theoryland.com/intvsresults.php?kwt='radiants'

 

WoB number 3

 

Interview: Feb 28th, 2011

Reddit Fantasy Bookclub Q&A with Brandon Sanderson (Verbatim)

gunslingers ()

The number 10 seems to be a recurring theme in this world. Are the Ten Fools the antithesis of the ten orders of the Knights Radiant?

Have you ever killed off a character and later regretted it?

When writing a battle scene in which thousands die do those deaths affect you in any way?

Brandon Sanderson

First Question: Yes, ten is a number of mythological import in the world. The Ten Fools are, essentially, the opposites of the Ten Heralds—who each represented an ideal. (Those ideals were later adopted by the orders of Knights Radiant, so yes, there is a connection—but there's a step between them.)

 

 

The Heralds each embodied an Ideal *note, singular and not plural*, and as natc said, were most likely the paragon of said Ideal so I think that this Ideal can be split into their primary and secondary attributes. Seeing as those ideals were adopted by the Orders (and the fact that Ishar forced/made the surgebinders follow a system (a la KR oaths/ideals) due to them possibly causing untold damage as a result of unchecked power. 

Edited September 13, 2015 by ParadoxSpren

[Sophiina]

WoB number 3

 

 

So we don't actually know why they 'turned against humanity' yet, but it wasn't due to what the Heralds did. Okay.

Edited September 13, 2015 by Sophiina

[Jondesu]

So we don't actually know why they 'turned against humanity' yet, but it wasn't due to what the Heralds did. Okay.

I don't know that the WoB quoted there says anything about that part, actually.  I'd say discovering what the Heralds did might well have led to the Recreance, though it may have been entirely unrelated.  I'm sure Odium's touch was involved, unless it was a plan to strike against Odium's power in some way as has been speculated, but it's also possible that something as simple as discovering that the Heralds had abandoned their Honorblades and lied about the Desolations being over could have been behind it.

 

jW

[ParadoxicalZen]

I think Sophiina might be referring to the other WoB'S located in that link. Accidentally quoted her other post but that WoB was meant to clear up the whole 'Heralds follow the ideal' thing

[hoser]

This WoB?

 

Interview: Nov 10th, 2011

Alloy of Law Signing Report - Green Hoodie Mistborn (Verbatim)

Question

Was the Almighty still alive when the Heralds packed it in, and did the Radiants pack it in in direct response to what the Heralds did?

Brandon Sanderson

The Radiants did NOT abandon their post as a response to the Heralds. The Radiants abandoned it for some other reason which will become evident eventually. The Almighty was still around when the Heralds did their thing.

[Sophiina]

As mentioned above. =] Sorry again for the misunderstanding. 

Edited September 14, 2015 by Sophiina

[Jondesu]

Cemci posted this in another topic, an epigraph in WoK Part 2, Chapter 46 "Child of Tanavast". 

 

Though I was due for dinner in Veden City that night, I insisted upon visiting Kholinar to speak with Tivbet. The tariffs through Urithiru were growing quire unreasonable. By then, the so-called Radiants had already begun to show their true nature.

 

I began to wonder about something based on that… do we know that all of the Radiants (at the end) were surgebinders?  Is it possible they'd begun to admit members based on more political reasons, but that had caused them to lose their purpose and focus, and then the Recreance was the Radiants leaving in disgust basically?  There'd have to be more, considering they knew what it would do to their spren (we assume), but I wonder if that could have been some portion of what led to the Recreance.

 

jW

[hoser]

For me, this presents a paradox. 

Cemci posted this in another topic, an epigraph in WoK Part 2, Chapter 46 "Child of Tanavast". 

 

 

 

I began to wonder about something based on that… do we know that all of the Radiants (at the end) were surgebinders?  Is it possible they'd begun to admit members based on more political reasons, but that had caused them to lose their purpose and focus, and then the Recreance was the Radiants leaving in disgust basically?  There'd have to be more, considering they knew what it would do to their spren (we assume), but I wonder if that could have been some portion of what led to the Recreance.

 

jW

If they lack purpose and focus, then why would they quit in a purposeful and focused way?  Why would they give up their power?  It is the spren who choose the Knights.  How would a living idea, the definition of monomania, lose purpose and focus?