The Recreance

[Seloun]

I'm in favor of the bond-farming theory, especially since someone has brought up the quote about Syl having helped kill men before. (Entering speculatve theory) We know Syl has been following Kaladin for awhile, seeing someone honorable who protected people... but she can't begin the Nahel bond because he isn't broken. It would've been easy for her to just stick Tien's shoe to the ground in a battle, causing him to trip and be killed, and she knew this would be part of the breaking for Kaladin.

 

Basically this. AFAIK I'm the originator the bond-farming theory; it actually came from trying to figure out the relationship between spren and the greatshells. It seems that the greatshells (and possibly all native Roshar life) are somehow symbiotically intertwined with the spren for their lifecycle (I think there's a quote to this effect, but I can't find it). My theory is that the spren require a material host of some kind to "reproduce" or otherwise evolve:

 

 

“It is the bond,” he explained. “In Shadesmar, I do not communicate this way, this . . . human way. My connection to you gives me the means by which I can manifest in the Physical Realm as more than a mindless glimmer. Mmmm. It links me to you, helps me communicate as you do. Fascinating. Mmmm.”

Sanderson, Brandon (2014-03-04). Words of Radiance (Stormlight Archive, The) (p. 739). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.

 

“It is inevitable,” Pattern said. “You will eventually betray your oaths, breaking my mind, leaving me dead— but the opportunity is worth the cost. My kind is too static. We always change, yes, but we change in the same way. Over and over. It is difficult to explain. You, though, you are vibrant. Coming to this place, this world of yours, I had to give up many things. The transition was . . . traumatic. My memory returns slowly, but I am pleased at the chance. Yes. Mmm.”

Sanderson, Brandon (2014-03-04). Words of Radiance (Stormlight Archive, The) (p. 888). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.

 

Originally, the spren only had the animals and the Parshendi to bond with. Then something occurred, and humans arrived, Tanavast created the Honorblades, and some of the spren learned to take on attributes that didn't exist before. This is the 'betrayal' referred to by the Listeners:

 

 

The spren betrayed us, it’s often felt.

Our minds are too close to their realm

That gives us our forms, but more is then

Demanded by the smartest spren,

We can’t provide what the humans lend,

Though broth are we, their meat is men.

Sanderson, Brandon (2014-03-04). Words of Radiance (Stormlight Archive, The) (p. 368). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.

 

Roshar life doesn't seem to require being 'broken' in the same way humans do, based on how Parshendi bond with their spren, instead being mediated by the highstorm. Most likely the first sets of spren to bond with humans did so accidentally (plenty of 'broken' people during Desolations, or, people being people, in between) but eventually, the spren (or some small group of spren) may have begun to intentionally break people (perhaps just as an attempt to continue surviving).

 

Sort of like a Garden of Eden story, except humans are the Fruit of Knowledge for the spren.

 

Edit: As food for thought - what happens to the spren when the Radiant dies? It's unlikely that they get 'killed' as in the same manner as the Recreance (otherwise the world should be littered with Shardblades), so something else must happen. When a greatshell is killed, spren seem to leave the body before vanishing:

 

 

Dalinar looked up at the hulking carcass. Tiny, near-invisible spren were floating out of the beast’s body, vanishing into the air. They looked like the tongues of smoke that might come off a candle after being snuff ed. Nobody knew what kind of spren they were; you only saw them around the freshly killed bodies of greatshells.

Sanderson, Brandon (2010-08-31). The Way of Kings (The Stormlight Archive) (p. 224). Macmillan. Kindle Edition.

 

So - spren reproduction?

Edited August 12, 2015 by Seloun

[kaellok he/him]

My theory is that the recreance was really a peace treaty between the KR and the parishendi.

We know the radiants gave up their surges willingly, and that the parishendi chose dullform on purpose as well. The result? A complete stop to their war.

With that in mind, that might be why lots of people are so obsessed about surgebinders returning. It means that both sides will have to bond with spren again to survive. Bringing an inevitable war.

As far as the one order that remained at great expense to the others, one group does seem to have soulcasters, which is a surge. We've already seen two fake soulcaster devices. What if they are all fake? We've been told again and again that the war couldn't continue without soulcasters. Its propping up the conflict. It might just be the last order of KR trying to wipe out the last of the voidbringers. Since they aren't using their powers directly, it might not elicit the same response from the parishendi. In fact they didn't agree to try stormform until a surgebinder showed himself on the battlefield.

 

Well, I guess a ~5 month necro-post isn't the worst first post I've seen.  So, welcome to the forums!  I tend to write in very forceful terms, and have an inordinate fondness for breaking things.  Please don't let this scare you away

 

The problem I have with your idea is a timeline.  Radiants were still around at the end of the Final Desolation (prologue from WoK.)  The Recreance happened a significant, but unknown, amount of time later.  However, there's nothing to suggest that the parshmen were still a threat/antagonists during this time.  Which suggests that they'd lost.  Given what we've seen of their culture, they tend to act more honorably than humans in warfare, even if much of what they do is alien/different than how we'd do things (ie, assassinating Galivar was pretty weird and nonsensical based on what we currently know.  Even their 'ruling council' of sorts is rather different.  And never mind their biology and customs.) 

 

So, basically, parshmen would have to have become antagonistic against the Knights Radiant, with both groups being those that act most honorably, well after any Desolation--and hence, during a time period relatively free of Odium's influence. 

 

I'd like to point out that the Radiants didn't "give up their Surges willingly."  They murdered their closest friends.  At least, based on the relationship that we see with our examples (Kaladin and Shallan primarily, with hints towards Lift and Renarin), the Bond between spren and Knight is great.  Also remember that "the choice of honor is life."  Not murder, not death, but life.  The Recreance was a very visceral abandonment of the primary tenet of what Radiants are.  I refuse to believe that some paltry conflict or war that would, by definition, be less than a Desolation would cause this.  They might choose to fight the war, sure, but murder innocents/best friends?  No.  No for the Parshendi, and definitely no for the Knights.

 

I'm not sure why the Recreance happened, but my headcanon was that it was consensual from both Spren and Radiant. I don't particularly believe the Spren could not have known what the Radiants were planning/had planned, especially from the way Kaladin's and Syl's bond has been portrayed thus far.

Syl knew what Kaladin was planning, and was powerless to stop it.  She died.  It's likely that the spren knew what the Radiants were planning, but they themselves couldn't stop it, and were unable to break their oaths that helped to form the Bond.  After all, the oaths of men are fickle things.  (I'd swear that's somewhere in-book, but can't find it now.  So, alas.  Perhaps I made it up?  Or it's from somewhere else?)

[EvilNuff]

...

The problem I have with your idea is a timeline.  Radiants were still around at the end of the Final Desolation (prologue from WoK.)  The Recreance happened a significant, but unknown, amount of time later.  However, there's nothing to suggest that the parshmen were still a threat/antagonists during this time. 

...

I'd like to point out that the Radiants didn't "give up their Surges willingly."  They murdered their closest friends.  At least, based on the relationship that we see with our examples (Kaladin and Shallan primarily, with hints towards Lift and Renarin), the Bond between spren and Knight is great.  Also remember that "the choice of honor is life."  Not murder, not death, but life.  The Recreance was a very visceral abandonment of the primary tenet of what Radiants are.  I refuse to believe that some paltry conflict or war that would, by definition, be less than a Desolation would cause this.  They might choose to fight the war, sure, but murder innocents/best friends?  No.  No for the Parshendi, and definitely no for the Knights.

 

Syl knew what Kaladin was planning, and was powerless to stop it.  She died.  It's likely that the spren knew what the Radiants were planning, but they themselves couldn't stop it, and were unable to break their oaths that helped to form the Bond.  After all, the oaths of men are fickle things.  (I'd swear that's somewhere in-book, but can't find it now.  So, alas.  Perhaps I made it up?  Or it's from somewhere else?)

 

Given what we know of the bond's between Radiants and their spren I think it is reasonable to assume that the Knights knew what they were doing when they abandoned their oaths.  They knew that they were killing their spren.  The spren likely could not stop them but I think that is somewhat irrelevant.  Given what the Radiants are and stood for, and given that entire orders of them choose to break their oaths, something incredibly dire had to have been discovered/happened in order to prompt such a wide spread act.

 

My theory is that the Nahel bond forming Radiants has a counter part with the listeners.  That the act of creating the Knights expanded the voidbringers, probably with multiple/additional types which made the desolations even worse than pre-Radiant.  The knights likely discovered that the Heralds broke their oathpact and they collectively decided to break their oaths in an attempt to stop the desolations from returning.  

 

I belive that one of the 10 orders is still active in Shinovar also and that their bonds are what allows the listeners to still bond with some of the forms they have.  If all 10 orders had broken then the listeners would all be consigned to dull form.

 

Just my 2c.

[ParadoxicalZen he/him]

Syl knew what Kaladin was planning, and was powerless to stop it.  She died.  It's likely that the spren knew what the Radiants were planning, but they themselves couldn't stop it, and were unable to break their oaths that helped to form the Bond.  After all, the oaths of men are fickle things.  (I'd swear that's somewhere in-book, but can't find it now.  So, alas.  Perhaps I made it up?  Or it's from somewhere else?)

 

My point/idea was that both the Spren and Radiants agreed it had to be done, regardless of whether the Spren could have stopped it or not. We see how Kaladin was after his bond with Syl was mended, so the secret that broke the Orders must have been pretty dire for nigh 100% of 9 Orders to break their oaths and doom their closest friends to a half-death state. To me the Spren must have discovered something that causes the Nahel Bond to be far more damaging than it first appears and it was through the convincing of their respective Radiants that the Oaths were broken for the good of everyone (granted this is speculation but tis my headcanon)

[kaellok he/him]

My point/idea was that both the Spren and Radiants agreed it had to be done, regardless of whether the Spren could have stopped it or not. We see how Kaladin was after his bond with Syl was mended, so the secret that broke the Orders must have been pretty dire for nigh 100% of 9 Orders to break their oaths and doom their closest friends to a half-death state. To me the Spren must have discovered something that causes the Nahel Bond to be far more damaging than it first appears and it was through the convincing of their respective Radiants that the Oaths were broken for the good of everyone (granted this is speculation but tis my headcanon)

This is what I disagree with

 

The Knights agreed it had to be done.  Or were somehow forced into it (as in, magically forced.  Not some mundane threat/coercion.)  If the spren actually agreed, then it doesn't make sense to me that they would now come back and start Bonding with humans again.  If the spren agreed, then Pattern would have said, "You will have to kill me, but it's worth it..." rather than "You will kill me, but it's worth it..." The Stormfather...well, he may have reacted just the same regardless.

 

Also, even if the spren initially agreed, I'm pretty sure that they changed their minds at the end.  In the vision Dalinar has, he hears distant screaming; WoB has it that that was from the spren.  I know you said it's your head-canon, which is great!  It just--it just doesn't work for me

 

 

My theory is that the Nahel bond forming Radiants has a counter part with the listeners.  That the act of creating the Knights expanded the voidbringers, probably with multiple/additional types which made the desolations even worse than pre-Radiant.  The knights likely discovered that the Heralds broke their oathpact and they collectively decided to break their oaths in an attempt to stop the desolations from returning.  

 

I belive that one of the 10 orders is still active in Shinovar also and that their bonds are what allows the listeners to still bond with some of the forms they have.  If all 10 orders had broken then the listeners would all be consigned to dull form.

 

Just my 2c.

 

The Bond making Desolations worse is a possibility.  But it doesn't cause them.  Desolations predate Radiancy.  (Heralds were created to fight the Desolation, and spren copied the Heralds to create Radiants later.)  To somehow get the idea in your head that committing suicide and killing your best friend at the same time would stop the world from ending is--it's insane to me, especially since it's the actual opposite of what Radiants are supposed to believe.  Especially since we know that getting rid of Radiants won't get rid of Desolations, because Desolations predate Radiants.  Without Heralds, should another Desolation come, Radiants are the only thing that stands as protection for humanity. 

 

Also, parshmen predate Radiants, and almost definitely humanity as a whole.  Since they seem to have evolved on Roshar (or with it), and much of Roshar's natural animals have a symbiotic bond with various types of spren, it just makes sense to me for parshmen to have that innately as well.  So in my mind they would, at a minimum, have access to more than just dullform as long as there are spren around.  The Radiants may be a cause (whether direct or indirect) of there being more types of spren, which give them more 'options' as it were, but their natural state would almost definitely be able to include the basics needed for survival--mating, fighting, and food.  Dullform don't seem capable of doing these on their own.  I liken dullform to a lack; as in they are missing an arm, or some other vital necessity for survival.  Or maybe the parshmen body is a type of chrysalis that only quickens when bonded with a spren.  But it's still missing something, not complete in and of itself. 

 

Again though, just because I disagree shouldn't mean you enjoy your own head-canon any less    Especially since I disagree with every fan-theory for Recreance that has been posted since WoR was published (and some more before that, but I wasn't on the boards before then, so.../shrug)

 

Mistborn spoilers.  But also contains my personal head-cannon (yes. My head is an actual cannon, and it shoots crazy ideas at 1700 m/s)

My zero-support head-canon is that someone found a magical way to take control of (most) of the KR and forced them to break their Bond, in a way similar to how Vin or Elend took control of koloss armies.  It's the only thing that I've been able to think of that actually solves for all of the problems I have with the Recreance, other than an astounding lack of supporting evidence (there's literally none.  I looked.)

[EvilNuff]

...

The Bond making Desolations worse is a possibility.  But it doesn't cause them.  Desolations predate Radiancy.  (Heralds were created to fight the Desolation, and spren copied the Heralds to create Radiants later.)  To somehow get the idea in your head that committing suicide and killing your best friend at the same time would stop the world from ending is--it's insane to me, especially since it's the actual opposite of what Radiants are supposed to believe.  Especially since we know that getting rid of Radiants won't get rid of Desolations, because Desolations predate Radiants.  Without Heralds, should another Desolation come, Radiants are the only thing that stands as protection for humanity. 

...

 

Yes I am well aware that desolations were pre-Radiant, I mentioned that in fact.  Given what we know and my INTJ brain, my train of logic is as follows:

1. Given what we know of Kaladin & Shallon's bonds, in the time of the Radiants I cannot fathom that they did not know what breaking their oaths would mean.

2. I cannot fathom that almost all of the Knights would suddenly turn evil and abandon the things they held dear.  Given that and #1, the only way almost all of the Knights would take such a drastic step as to break their oaths, killing their spren, has to be because they believed it would be for the greater good.

3. I have to believe that only a desolation would be significant enough to warrant that drastic an action.

4. It seems like this happened somewhat suddenly, all at once so to speak, so I am assuming that something happened or was discovered that prompted this drastic huge change.

 

Hence my guess that the Knights intentionally broke their bonds, probably with their spren's consent to be honest, in order to lessen the desolations.  Given #4 my guess is they found out that 9 heralds broke their oaths and this was their plan to lessen the effect of the desolations so humanity had a chance to survive with only 1 of the 10 heralds.

[hoser he/him]

This is what I disagree with

 

The Knights agreed it had to be done.  Or were somehow forced into it (as in, magically forced.  Not some mundane threat/coercion.)  If the spren actually agreed, then it doesn't make sense to me that they would now come back and start Bonding with humans again.  If the spren agreed, then Pattern would have said, "You will have to kill me, but it's worth it..." rather than "You will kill me, but it's worth it..."

The spren fear extinction.  If Odium wins, then he will presumably destroy the local Shadesmar and the spren.  Why would they not take the risk that some would be killed, rather than the certainty of annihilation?

 

Also, even if the spren initially agreed, I'm pretty sure that they changed their minds at the end.  In the vision Dalinar has, he hears distant screaming; WoB has it that that was from the spren. ...

Couldn't they have agreed, but the effect of what they agreed to caused them to scream?

 

The Knights must have had meetings or discussions to plan the Recreance.  They learned of the "wicked thing of eminence", then nine of the orders decided to wholly disband in concert.  There is no way the spren would not have known.  If the spren had disagreed they could have appeared to others and made their POV or objections known.  There is no evidence that they did. 

[ParadoxicalZen he/him]

Well, to be fair, most of the spren from that time are locked in Shardblade form (that and we're still lacking in-depth info as to what normal and Nahel spren are like in Shadesmar but when they manifest in the physical realm, their sentience is massively reduced without a person to bond)

 

If my idea is true to some extent, it could be that those spren didn't pass on the information of whatever the 'wicked thing of eminence' was to their ruling government bodies so they could use the Recreance as a 'forewarning/lesson' (i can't think of the right word at the moment and it is really bugging me, but it is along those lines) to the very few that remain of the Spren species to prevent them from bonding in the future.

Edited August 12, 2015 by ParadoxSpren

[Zas678 he/him]

I'm of the idea that Spren are causing people to be broken, in order to bond with them. 

 

The amount of anguish, on the part of the Stormfather, and present in the Shardblades, doesn't seem to agree with mutual agreed suicide. It seems to be an attacked. The spren that the Alethi Shardbearer heard during the duel with Adolin and Kaladin heard said "You killed me." 

 

Think of Kaladin. Think of Shallan. They are both so very very close to their spren. What would cause them to abandon them? And not only abandon them but betray them? The only thing that makes sense to me is that Pattern and Syl either were aware of and approved, or helped cause the breaking that allowed Pattern and Syl to bond with Shallan and Kaladin. How would Kaladin react if he knew that Syl helped cause Tien's death? Or in the death of his men? 

 

The decoded epigraph from the diagram says "Hold the secret that broke the Knights Radiant. You may need it to destroy the new orders when they return." I believe that this is the Secret- this thing of wicked eminence- the fact that the spren are the ones that cause or encourage the shattering of souls to allow them to become conscious. 

 

EDIT- Plus, it makes for a more interesting twist for the readers than mass suicide on the part of the spren. 

[hoser he/him]

Lets assume it were so.

I'm of the idea that Spren are causing people to be broken, in order to bond with them. 

 

The amount of anguish, on the part of the Stormfather, and present in the Shardblades, doesn't seem to agree with mutual agreed suicide. It seems to be an attacked. The spren that the Alethi Shardbearer heard during the duel with Adolin and Kaladin heard said "You killed me." 

 

Think of Kaladin. Think of Shallan. They are both so very very close to their spren. What would cause them to abandon them? And not only abandon them but betray them? The only thing that makes sense to me is that Pattern and Syl either were aware of and approved, or helped cause the breaking that allowed Pattern and Syl to bond with Shallan and Kaladin. How would Kaladin react if he knew that Syl helped cause Tien's death? Or in the death of his men? 

 

The decoded epigraph from the diagram says "Hold the secret that broke the Knights Radiant. You may need it to destroy the new orders when they return." I believe that this is the Secret- this thing of wicked eminence- the fact that the spren are the ones that cause or encourage the shattering of souls to allow them to become conscious. 

 

EDIT- Plus, it makes for a more interesting twist for the readers than mass suicide on the part of the spren. 

The spren are causing people to be broken.  It's an interesting idea, but so what?  Why would that cause the Knights to quit?  There must be another step that I'm not seeing. 

 

Are the Knights doing it to stop the spren from helping break other people?  If so, then why not communicate it?  Wouldn't it be more helpful to warn people about the danger?  Instead, they seem to have carefully protected "The Way of Kings" and the Dawnchant among the Vanrial at the Silent Mount.  They carefully made sure that people had Soulcasters, Shardblades, Shardplate and one Oathgate, but no Regrowth or portable teleportation fabrials.  Why such particular details if all they wanted to do was to stop the spren from bonding?

 

I don't see how it fits either the spren or Honor's intent.  Pattern and Syl seem straightforward enough that a secret dark side doesn't really make sense.  I can see where Odious influence on Roshone or Shallan's father could be implicated.  Syl is composed of Honor, supposedly the embodiment of Nobility, oaths and promises.  How does she reconcile that with getting Tien killed?  Kaladin's signing up to help protect Tien was really the thing that started him on his protection path, but did Syl even know him when Tien was killed?

 

All I can figure is that the Knights had a plan.  They had Truthwatchers with precog.  They somehow saw that their continued existence would be worse.  Planning the Recreance could still have been congruent with their intent, but the moment they took action by yielding their Shards, they broke the first ideal and the spren were killed.  They must have needed people to have certain fabrials and not others.  They left only one working Oathgate as a way to get to Urithiru when the spren returned. 

Edited August 12, 2015 by hoser

[Seloun]

Lets assume it were so.

The spren are causing people to be broken.  It's an interesting idea, but so what?  Why would that cause the Knights to quit?  There must be another step that I'm not seeing. 

 

Are the Knights doing it to stop the spren from helping break other people?  If so, then why not communicate it?  Wouldn't it be more helpful to warn people about the danger?  Instead, they seem to have carefully protected "The Way of Kings" and the Dawnchant among the Vanrial at the Silent Mount.  They carefully made sure that people had Soulcasters, Shardblades, Shardplate and one Oathgate, but no Regrowth or portable teleportation fabrials.  Why such particular details if all they wanted to do was to stop the spren from bonding?

 

I don't see how it fits either the spren or Honor's intent.  Pattern and Syl seem straightforward enough that a secret dark side doesn't really make sense.  I can see where Odious influence on Roshone or Shallan's father could be implicated.  Syl is composed of Honor, supposedly the embodiment of Nobility, oaths and promises.  How does she reconcile that with getting Tien killed?  Kaladin's signing up to help protect Tien was really the thing that started him on his protection path, but did Syl even know him when Tien was killed?

 

It's not necessarily Syl, Pattern or even necessarily a majority of the spren were directly involved in the bond-farming thing; it just requires some of the spren to have conspired to do so. In fact, my theory is that originally the bonds were all 'natural', but eventually some spren or group of spren hit on the idea of making more hosts (possibly due to Odium's influence). In many cases I would imagine the spren involved in 'breaking' the person wouldn't necessarily be the one that eventually bonded the person.

 

The Knights would have killed their spren off because they would have felt betrayed. If they learned that their capacity to be bonded was due to a loss of a loved one (or whatever trauma) and that at least in some cases the spren were actually responsible for the trauma in the first place, they'd certainly feel betrayed. It's also possible that they did in fact try to record what happened; the Vorin church apparently destroyed or altered most of the records from that time:

 

 

Jasnah smiled through her fatigue. “Very good indeed. My time in the Palanaeum was very useful, but also in some ways disappointing. While I confirmed my suspicions about the parshmen, I also found that many of the great library’s records bore the same signs of tampering as others I’d read. This ‘cleansing’ of history, removing direct references to Urithiru or the Radiants because they were embarrassments to Vorinism— it’s infuriating. And people ask me why I am hostile to the church! I need primary sources. And then, there are stories— ones I dare to believe— claiming that Urithiru was holy and protected from the Voidbringers. Maybe that was wishful fancy, but I am not too much a scholar to hope that something like that might be true.”

Sanderson, Brandon (2014-03-04). Words of Radiance (Stormlight Archive, The) (p. 113). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.

 

 

Since almost no one seems to know how KR were even bound in the first place, it seems reasonable to expect any information about how the bonds were formed or abused was similarly suppressed.

 

I don't get the impression the Vanrial were set up by the KR, but instead formed by people who wanted the KR back. I don't think the KR were related to preservation of TWOK or any of the fabrials (I'm not sure why you get this impression - the artifacts could certainly be left over without intentionally preserved). The Shardblades and the Plate, perhaps - but that might be because the KR were in somewhat of a bind; they were personally betrayed but their goals were still beneficial to humanity (Voidbringers were definitely real and certainly seemed to be a threat to humans). So it's possible they intentionally left something to help humans protect themselves while washing their own hands of their powers.

 

Alternatively, the spren may have arranged for world-wide events that caused sufficient trauma to keep the number of available potential bond candidate up (e.g. stirred up wars). Really any kind of activity that would have increased the number of potential bond candidates could be seen as a betrayal of the KR protecting humanity.

[hoser he/him]

It's not necessarily Syl, Pattern or even necessarily a majority of the spren were directly involved in the bond-farming thing; it just requires some of the spren to have conspired to do so. In fact, my theory is that originally the bonds were all 'natural', but eventually some spren or group of spren hit on the idea of making more hosts (possibly due to Odium's influence). In many cases I would imagine the spren involved in 'breaking' the person wouldn't necessarily be the one that eventually bonded the person.

 

The Knights would have killed their spren off because they would have felt betrayed. If they learned that their capacity to be bonded was due to a loss of a loved one (or whatever trauma) and that at least in some cases the spren were actually responsible for the trauma in the first place, they'd certainly feel betrayed.

So the Knights feel betrayed by what different spren (possibly Odious) have done?  So offended that they kill their friends (who may be innocent) and abandon their Oaths-sworn duty. 

 

It's a theory.  I can't prove it false.  But it explains nothing.  The Knights could have pursued many courses of action.  They could have tried to trap or affect the spren that were causing the mischief.  They could have acted in individually different ways. 

 

Why did it cause them to do what they did?  Nine orders, to the person, and in unity.  Because they felt betrayed.  People's feelings are individual.  For a joint action like this, I think it would have required something connected to their duties.  Some of them likely would have been broken naturally, even. 

 

I ...

 It's also possible that they did in fact try to record what happened; the Vorin church apparently destroyed or altered most of the records from that time:

 

Since almost no one seems to know how KR were even bound in the first place, it seems reasonable to expect any information about how the bonds were formed or abused was similarly suppressed.

The author of the in-book WoR, who wrote soon after the Recreance and was very cognizant of spren bonds, apparently didn't know.  If the Vorin church was censoring information about bonds, they couldn't have gotten to that book.  The church was censoring things that made the Knights look good.  They would have no reason to hide the fact that the Knights had been broken by spren deliberately traumatizing them.

 

It's ...

I don't get the impression the Vanrial were set up by the KR, but instead formed by people who wanted the KR back. I don't think the KR were related to preservation of TWOK or any of the fabrials (I'm not sure why you get this impression - the artifacts could certainly be left over without intentionally preserved). The Shardblades and the Plate, perhaps - but that might be because the KR were in somewhat of a bind; they were personally betrayed but their goals were still beneficial to humanity (Voidbringers were definitely real and certainly seemed to be a threat to humans). So it's possible they intentionally left something to help humans protect themselves while washing their own hands of their powers.

 

Alternatively, the spren may have arranged for world-wide events that caused sufficient trauma to keep the number of available potential bond candidate up (e.g. stirred up wars). Really any kind of activity that would have increased the number of potential bond candidates could be seen as a betrayal of the KR protecting humanity.

I have no evidence either way about the Vanrial.  While a precognitively-influenced plan for the Knights to be reborn would explain it neatly, there are other possible explanations that rely on coincidence to explain why a single copy of tWoK was preserved in the same place as the Dawnchant. 

It seems that you agree that the Recreance may have been, in part, a plan to give people Shardblades, Shardplate and Soulcasters for their own protection.  Meanwhile certain other artifacts were withheld.  Yay for agreement!  

 

Why would Odiously-influenced spren want more Knights?  Why would the existing Knights consider the Odious actions a betrayal by their own spren?  I don't get it.   

[ParadoxicalZen he/him]

It seems that you agree that the Recreance may have been, in part, a plan to give people Shardblades, Shardplate and Soulcasters for their own protection.  Meanwhile certain other artifacts were withheld.  Yay for agreement!  

 

If the whole 'Surgebinding assists with the hastening of Desolations' theory is in any part true, this could explain some possible reasons why they did what they did (again, in support of my self-sacrifice idea). In order to halt/slow the process of Desolations, but not leave Roshar defenseless, they handed over the Shards to the people. I like this idea, have some upvotes!

[Seloun]

So the Knights feel betrayed by what different spren (possibly Odious) have done?  So offended that they kill their friends (who may be innocent) and abandon their Oaths-sworn duty. 

 

It's a theory.  I can't prove it false.  But it explains nothing.  The Knights could have pursued many courses of action.  They could have tried to trap or affect the spren that were causing the mischief.  They could have acted in individually different ways. 

 

Why did it cause them to do what they did?  Nine orders, to the person, and in unity.  Because they felt betrayed.  People's feelings are individual.  For a joint action like this, I think it would have required something connected to their duties.  Some of them likely would have been broken naturally, even. 

  

 

If it became clear that some of the Knights were 'created' by the spren through bond-farming, it would potentially taint the entire enterprise, especially if the activities had been going on for some time or if the means of creating proto-Radiants were larger than individual in scope:

 

 

Teft picked up spheres, putting them in his pouch. He held the last one for a second, then tucked it away too. “Journey before destination. There are always several ways to achieve a goal. Failure is preferable to winning through unjust means. Protecting ten innocents is not worth killing one. In the end, all men die. How you lived will be far more important to the Almighty than what you accomplished.”

Sanderson, Brandon (2010-08-31). The Way of Kings (The Stormlight Archive) (p. 831). Macmillan. Kindle Edition.

 

Also, I'm not suggesting that Odiumspren directly went around breaking people and that was the cause of the Recreance; my suggestion is that Odium may have influenced otherwise 'normal' spren into thinking that this might be a good idea (either to have more KR or to ensure the survival of their species).

 

WoR was written quite a bit after the Recreance:

 

 

But what was the “wicked thing of eminence” that led to the Recreance? she thought, writing the quote in her notebook. It was the second day of their travels on the Plains, and she had agreed to ride in the coach Adolin had provided— alone, though it baffled Adolin why she wouldn’t want her lady’s maid with her. Shallan did not want to explain Pattern to the girl.

The book had a chapter for each order of Knights Radiant, with talk of their traditions, their abilities, and their attitudes. The author admitted that a lot of it was hearsay— the book had been written two hundred years after the Recreance, and by then facts, lore, and superstition had mixed freely. Beyond that, it was in an old dialect of Alethi, using the protoscript, a precursor to the true women’s script of modern day. She spent a lot of her time sorting out meanings, occasionally calling over some of Navani’s scholars to provide definitions or interpretation.

Sanderson, Brandon (2014-03-04). Words of Radiance (Stormlight Archive, The) (p. 938). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.

 

 

The first line also suggests that author did know, and thought it was common enough knowledge not to have to expound on it (though it's also possible the author did not know, and simply assumed it was something really bad).

[Michael Portz he/him]

Say, where does this -several times during the above discussion mentioned- idea, that Odium will destroy the Shadesmar come from???

 

Why should he do so? Isn't Shadesmar an absolute MUST for the cosmere to work? And perhaps Odium wants to reign, but he does not want to destroy the whole world.

[hoser he/him]

Say, where does this -several times during the above discussion mentioned- idea, that Odium will destroy the Shadesmar come from???

 

Why should he do so? Isn't Shadesmar an absolute MUST for the cosmere to work? And perhaps Odium wants to reign, but he does not want to destroy the whole world.

Shadesmar only really exists where there are Shards and other thinking beings.  Odium wants to wipe out all other Shards.  To do that he needs to get free of Roshar with his investiture.  Presumably he wants to splinter Cultivation and destroy all intelligent life before picking up his investiture and going to hunt down other Shards.  That would not leave much of Shadesmar, methinks. 

 

Interview: Dec 15th, 2011

Alloy of Law Signing Report - Zas (Verbatim)

Question

So Ruin and Preservation combine. When Odium slays the Shardbearers, why doesn’t he absorb the enemy Shards?

Brandon Sanderson

Because that would actually change the way he views the world. The Shard would actually start to influence him, and could actually ruin who he views himself as being. So instead of combining them all, his goal is to destroy them all and be the only one left at his power level.

QUESTION

So by his nature, he can't combine?

BRANDON SANDERSON

I mean he could, but it would change his nature. So he won't.

[natc]

There would be less bits of it, but you can't just get rid of it.

If anything Sel still has almost too much intelligent life for its own good after Odium finished with it. The cognitive realm should still be mostly intact. Blatantly unsafe to travel through, but intact.

Edited August 14, 2015 by natc

[Michael Portz he/him]

So Shadesmar would be less accessible with Odium reigning, but it would still be there. Thats something I can wrap my brain around, thanks :-)

[Awesomness]

I don´t think the spren "farmed" surgebinders. Why would they need it?

- KR were a minority of powerful people. 

- Spren bond with broken people.

It sounds impossible that they could have run out of "broken people" and started farming them. And I´ll sustain this with common sense (Sorry!):

How many people do you know that is Not Broken in any way?

 

As long as we know, in order to break their oaths simultaneously, the 9 orders would have to break their firs oath: Life before death, strength before weakness, travel before destination.

I think they discovered the Nahel Bond was somehow related with the Desolations. So they chose to give up, the death of the surgebinders in order to protect humanity. In other words: destination before travel.

We don´t know exactly what this “wicked thing of eminence” was exactly, but it was strong enough to make them sacrifice everything, even extremely usefull knowledge, and leave the shards and soulcasters to the humans so they could take care of themselves.

 

 So it's possible they intentionally left something to help humans protect themselves while washing their own hands of their powers.

 

Alternatively, the spren may have arranged for world-wide events that caused sufficient trauma to keep the number of available potential bond candidate up (e.g. stirred up wars). Really any kind of activity that would have increased the number of potential bond candidates could be seen as a betrayal of the KR protecting humanity.

Or was it to avoid those spren to form a new bond, trapped in a shardblade form.??

 

There´s still a piece that puzzles me:  the war against spren that seemed to be happening in one of Dalinar visions (unfortunately I don´t have the quote now, but hopefully I´ll edit this post to add it when I get home).

Just to remind you, Dalinar was marching with a balalion, probably squires, and a Radiant was leading them. She pointed out a spren in a lake and the soldiers attacked it.

[Seloun]

 

I don´t think the spren "farmed" surgebinders. Why would they need it?

 

- KR were a minority of powerful people. 

 

- Spren bond with broken people.

 

It sounds impossible that they could have run out of "broken people" and started farming them. And I´ll sustain this with common sense (Sorry!):

 

How many people do you know that is Not Broken in any way?

 

 

People who are broken and have the necessary attributes are probably a pretty small minority (how many Kaladins are available in the series so far?).. All of the modern Radiants are fairly exceptional people. Being 'broken' also seems to require fairly significant trauma, to the point that I don't think most young adults in a non-wartime environment would qualify. This would especially be the case if the KR were particularly effective at protecting humanity.

 

Being broken may also be a matter of degree; someone who is more 'broken' may be easier to bond or may be stronger.

 

The hardest thing for theories on the Recreance to explain, in my mind, is why the Radiants chose to kill their spren rather than themselves. Since the world is not littered with Shardblades, there must be some means in which spren get 'recycled' (either go back to Cognitive or whatever) when a Radiant dies 'normally'; this might just be the bond breaks without killing the spren when the Radiants die, or maybe there's some ritual, etc. The point is that there must have been *some* way for Radiants to stop being Radiants without killing their spren; yet they specifically chose that route. That suggests to me that killing the spren was not just a byproduct, but (at least one of) the goal.

[Shadow Guardian he/him]

Contrary to what most people seem to feel, I don't necessarily think that all of the bonded spren were 'betrayed' per-se.

I tend to think that whatever the root cause of the recreance was, it had to do more with the nature of the nahel bond or what it may have been causing in the long term (I have a loose side theory that surgebinding may weaken the heralds, causing them to break sooner, but that's getting off track) rather than a response to anything that the spren had done (such as bond farming).

The bond between knight and spren is not something to take lightly. Just with Kaladin and Syl, we know how close they are, and I just don't see every person in the organization being willing to break something that precious. Even if the spren 'were' farming bonds, to judge an individual because something their entire people were doing just seems harsh to me, and I think a lot of knights would chosen to judge their bonded spren individually rather than as a collective. An example would be Kaladin's prejudice against light eyes as a collective and how he judges them "all", but those closer to him, such as Dalinar and Adolin, he judges more accurately as the individuals that they are instead of just hating them as light eyes. That's not to say he doesn't keep some of his bias with them, but that's not the only thing he sees. I think it would be similar case between each Knight and his spren, judging the individual that they know, rather than only seeing what their "people" had done.

My inclination has always been that the spren who were bonded to knights at the time of the recreance were just as aware as the knights as to whatever the "wicked thing of eminence" was that caused them to to disband in the manner that they did. Barring the individuals that must have felt otherwise, as a collective, I think that both the knights and bonded spren must have agreed that the route they took, and the manner in which they did it, was absolutely necessary.

The primary argument against the spren being complicit to recreance is all of the modern spren, who clearly see it as a betrayal on the side of the humans, but I counter that just because the bonded spren knew why, does not mean that they ever passed that on to the rest of their kind, most likely by intention. Whatever the secret was, if the purpose in disbanding the KR was to cease the existence of surgebinders and to prevent the spren from forming more nahel bonds in the future, it makes sense for the spren populous as a whole to see what happened as such a betrayal that they would completely cease to form those bonds at all.

One good reason for the spren to see a betrayal, instead of maybe an explanation by the bonded spren of "hey, this is why this has to happen" is the longterm effect. Where knowledge maybe wouldn't get passed on, or some maybe wouldn't care as much about it as it became more a thing of the past, the deep rooted feeling of being completely betrayed is, I think, far more deep rooted and long lasting.

Perhaps I'm applying too many human attributes to the spren and their reactions, but from my interpretation as I've read, I don't think it nearly so far-fetched.

The biggest counter to my theory, I think is the Stormfather and the sense that he gives off that the humans will betray the spren, since, if he was bonded at the time of the recreance, which is most likely, if not confirmed (memory is fuzzy ATM), than he would know the reasoning behind it, and I do not at all get the impression that the recreance was something that he agreed to. But then again, he, and also pattern, speak of the humans killing their spren in more of a "inevitable outcome" vibe, rather than a "you're going to stab me/them in the back one day"

This.... Turned out a whole lot longer than I anticipated.... Sheesh. This is what happens when I rarely post, when I do, everything I have to say comes out in a giant wall-o-text.

tl;dr: I don't think the reason for the recreance was because anything the spren intentionally did, and I think that at least the majority of the bonded spren were complicit in the decision to disband, but chose to let the rest of the spren think it was a betrayal in order to prevent future surgebinders. The Stormfather kinda throws a wrench in my theory.

Edited August 20, 2015 by Shadow Guardian

[kaladin_stormblessed_]

Something i just thought of while reading the above post is that if the radiants were planning to betray the spren, wouldnt the spren have known? Doesnt Syl read Kaladin's mind after they get the next oath and she can become a shard-whatever he needs at the moment? It seems like spren would try to unbond their KR? It seems like the spren has to voluntarily choose their KR, (though wyndle doesn't seem to like Lift very much as a KR). IMO the spren would have to be complicit in the act in the recreance, because they couldve had the power to start trying to undo their bonds if the KR had done the planning necessary for nine orders to simulatneously give up their shards.

[ParadoxicalZen he/him]

Contrary to what most people seem to feel, I don't necessarily think that all of the bonded spren were 'betrayed' per-se.

I tend to think that whatever the root cause of the recreance was, it had to do more with the nature of the nahel bond or what it may have been causing in the long term (I have a loose side theory that surgebinding may weaken the heralds, causing them to break sooner, but that's getting off track) rather than a response to anything that the spren had done (such as bond farming).

The bond between knight and spren is not something to take lightly. Just with Kaladin and Syl, we know how close they are, and I just don't see every person in the organization being willing to break something that precious. Even if the spren 'were' farming bonds, to judge an individual because something their entire people were doing just seems harsh to me, and I think a lot of knights would chosen to judge their bonded spren individually rather than as a collective. An example would be Kaladin's prejudice against light eyes as a collective and how he judges them "all", but those closer to him, such as Dalinar and Adolin, he judges more accurately as the individuals that they are instead of just hating them as light eyes. That's not to say he doesn't keep some of his bias with them, but that's not the only thing he sees. I think it would be similar case between each Knight and his spren, judging the individual that they know, rather than only seeing what their "people" had done.

My inclination has always been that the spren who were bonded to knights at the time of the recreance were just as aware as the knights as to whatever the "wicked thing of eminence" was that caused them to to disband in the manner that they did. Barring the individuals that must have felt otherwise, as a collective, I think that both the knights and bonded spren must have agreed that the route they took, and the manner in which they did it, was absolutely necessary.

The primary argument against the spren being complicit to recreance is all of the modern spren, who clearly see it as a betrayal on the side of the humans, but I counter that just because the bonded spren knew why, does not mean that they ever passed that on to the rest of their kind, most likely by intention. Whatever the secret was, if the purpose in disbanding the KR was to cease the existence of surgebinders and to prevent the spren from forming more nahel bonds in the future, it makes sense for the spren populous as a whole to see what happened as such a betrayal that they would completely cease to form those bonds at all.

One good reason for the spren to see a betrayal, instead of maybe an explanation by the bonded spren of "hey, this is why this has to happen" is the longterm effect. Where knowledge maybe wouldn't get passed on, or some maybe wouldn't care as much about it as it became more a thing of the past, the deep rooted feeling of being completely betrayed is, I think, far more deep rooted and long lasting.

Perhaps I'm applying too many human attributes to the spren and their reactions, but from my interpretation as I've read, I don't think it nearly so far-fetched.

The biggest counter to my theory, I think is the Stormfather and the sense that he gives off that the humans will betray the spren, since, if he was bonded at the time of the recreance, which is most likely, if not confirmed (memory is fuzzy ATM), than he would know the reasoning behind it, and I do not at all get the impression that the recreance was something that he agreed to. But then again, he, and also pattern, speak of the humans killing their spren in more of a "inevitable outcome" vibe, rather than a "you're going to stab me/them in the back one day"

This.... Turned out a whole lot longer than I anticipated.... Sheesh. This is what happens when I rarely post, when I do, everything I have to say comes out in a giant wall-o-text.

tl;dr: I don't think the reason for the recreance was because anything the spren intentionally did, and I think that at least the majority of the bonded spren were complicit in the decision to disband, but chose to let the rest of the spren think it was a betrayal in order to prevent future surgebinders. The Stormfather kinda throws a wrench in my theory.

 

You just summed up my whole idea perfectly (Y) 

 

I see what you mean about the Stormfather, but given that he held Honour's power for a short time, and that he refers to Syl as his 'daughter', and that she is an Honourspren (with their rather narrow/selective viewpoint), it could be he has a rather distorted viewpoint, not to mention how he's seen humans behave all these centuries 

Edited August 22, 2015 by ParadoxSpren

[Amaror]

I think the Recreance was more of a sacrifice by the Radiants than a Betrayal. From Dalinars Visions and Tavanasts(Was that the Name of the one Herals that died?) Ramblings that most of the time the humans are in a primitive early stage of civilization when the desolations come. We know that this is not the case now, so i think that the time has been a lot longer than usual for the desolation to come.

 

I think that, somehow, the abandoning of their spren and bonds didn't only break their own bonds, but the bonds of the parshendi as well. We allready know that Parshmen are Parshendi without a bonded Spren, so it makes sense that, at some point, the Bond between the Voidbringers and their Spren must have been broken. Maybe the Stormfather thinks that the betrayal of the Spren by the humans is ultimately inevitable, because it's the only way to break the bonds of the Voidbringers and their Spren and thus the only way for the humans to ultimately be victorious.

[Ansalem]

From Dalinars Visions and Tavanasts(Was that the Name of the one Herals that died?) 

 

Tanavast is the man who held the Honor Shard, also known as the Almighty in Vorinism. He is dead, though, which means when Kaladin says "honor is dead" it's more true than he realizes.