EvilNuff

I don't think anyone mentioned it but Kaladin in chapter 31 uses windspren to deflect the storm which made me think of manifesting plate:

First off, the oaths are not set in stone. They can and do vary from knight to knight within a given order. I base this statement on the oaths we have seen for Windrunners being different for each person. Given that I think it is a fair assessment to say that the Edgedancer oaths are around remembering and listening to those forgotten/ignored/etc. You already gave three great examples of how Adolin personifies these traits and there are more, the way he stood up for Kal after the lopsided fight in WoR is one that comes to mind. As for Stonewards we don't know terribly much so far. Adolin does not sacrific himself. He isn't the type to reconcile between opposing parties, on the contrary he is more of an instigator. I actually think the information you gathered helps argue for him becoming an Edgedancer over a Stoneward.

Torol Sadeas makes for a spectacular corpse!

Such a hard decision for me. Probably Dalinar right now. Adolin and Lift are close contenders as well as is Syl.

There are ample examples in the books that different orders which share a surge have it behave differently for each order. The Truthwatchers first surge is progression and the Edgedancers second surge is progression. That alone explains why Renarin and Lift's regrowth are different.

I loved the book, I thought it was much better written than Words despite having a less satisfying climax. In no particular order things I liked and disliked: Loved Maya, I think Adolin is fantastic with his sword. Loved seeing Vivenna, I'm assuming her sword was created similarly to Nightblood just less psycho? Loved Dalinars story arc. It broke my heart when he went back to drinking. Ehlokar is just a tragic figure, he wants to do better but just cannot. I hated Shallan in this book. Reading her chapters was just pure torture for me. I want more Jasnah, she is so much more interesting to me than Shallan. I am torn whether I feel sorry for Venli or not early and happy for her at the end or not. On one hand she brought the about but on the other she suffered quite a bit as well. I absolutely hated that Renarin lived. Ugh by far my least favorite Sanderson character ever and I was so hopeful that Jasnah would do the right thing and kill him...ARGH!

I absolutely *love* that concept art.

You and I, my friend, have diametrically opposed views. I loved Mizzy and the bad puns were the absolute best thing about the books to me. I want more just for those!

Those are very cool indeed, thanks for sharing.

Absolutely, and I have enjoyed reading your theories in this forum. As I recall after Megan burned herself intentionally at the big fight at the tower, Prof's goons are about to shoot her and David and David mentions something to the effect of, with her power temporarily negated if she died it would be for good. So burning her alive is one way but negating her powers and killing her conventionally would be another.

I love the thought that went into this post and I appreciate you sharing with us. However: I do think that it is a very large stretch to assume that the quirk of Steelheart's metal insulation extends to all transfersion type abilities so the rest of the theories here just read as not something I agree with.

My interpretation about Tia is that she was still dead but Prof had momentarily forgotten: He grew pale because he had forgotten that she was dead. The quote about Mizzy was: From that I interpret that Knighthawk was just filling them in on the happenings in Ildithia (sp?) since they left.

Agreed, I need more bad similes!

This is just from memory but as I recall in Firefight Regalia asked/suggested for water powers and Calamity said he would get something thematically appropriate. Obviously since he killed Steelheart, getting those powers fit that bill.

The quote about Chicago dogs in Mitosis is pretty funny...despite the fact that Chicago dogs are disgusting and ketchup is required for any real hot dog.

Very well said, and I agree completely...delightful post.

I have two main complaints about how these stories were written. (Also just want to point out that I love the series so even though I have complaints I still highly recommend the books to friends.) First, the way Jasnah was "killed". It was obvious that that as a character she had been built up too much, there was too much unresolved backstory and information to just kill her. However, she had far too much information that, from a narrative's perspective, Shallon needed to discover on her own. I just feel the way that it was handled was sloppy and transparent. Brandon is a far better writer than this and it really bothered me. Second, the entire character of Renarin and how others interact with him. As written, he is a bigger problem for house Kholin than Sadeas and closer to a villain than Sadeas. That is obviously not the intent of the character so again this is just extremely poor writing by Brandon in an otherwise fantastic book.

I think there are multiple types of voidbringers. I suspect chasmfiends might be another type when bonded with other voidspren.

Yes I am well aware that desolations were pre-Radiant, I mentioned that in fact. Given what we know and my INTJ brain, my train of logic is as follows: 1. Given what we know of Kaladin & Shallon's bonds, in the time of the Radiants I cannot fathom that they did not know what breaking their oaths would mean. 2. I cannot fathom that almost all of the Knights would suddenly turn evil and abandon the things they held dear. Given that and #1, the only way almost all of the Knights would take such a drastic step as to break their oaths, killing their spren, has to be because they believed it would be for the greater good. 3. I have to believe that only a desolation would be significant enough to warrant that drastic an action. 4. It seems like this happened somewhat suddenly, all at once so to speak, so I am assuming that something happened or was discovered that prompted this drastic huge change. Hence my guess that the Knights intentionally broke their bonds, probably with their spren's consent to be honest, in order to lessen the desolations. Given #4 my guess is they found out that 9 heralds broke their oaths and this was their plan to lessen the effect of the desolations so humanity had a chance to survive with only 1 of the 10 heralds.

Given what we know of the bond's between Radiants and their spren I think it is reasonable to assume that the Knights knew what they were doing when they abandoned their oaths. They knew that they were killing their spren. The spren likely could not stop them but I think that is somewhat irrelevant. Given what the Radiants are and stood for, and given that entire orders of them choose to break their oaths, something incredibly dire had to have been discovered/happened in order to prompt such a wide spread act. My theory is that the Nahel bond forming Radiants has a counter part with the listeners. That the act of creating the Knights expanded the voidbringers, probably with multiple/additional types which made the desolations even worse than pre-Radiant. The knights likely discovered that the Heralds broke their oathpact and they collectively decided to break their oaths in an attempt to stop the desolations from returning. I belive that one of the 10 orders is still active in Shinovar also and that their bonds are what allows the listeners to still bond with some of the forms they have. If all 10 orders had broken then the listeners would all be consigned to dull form. Just my 2c.

Maxal you make some good points, responses below... I chose the wrong word here, you are correct she was not well developed. What I intended to say was there were too many unanswered questions about her that had been hinted at to the readers and left unresolved for me to believe in her death. You have a character who has been built up in this world. She obviously has answers that we the readers (through Shallan) cannot have this early in the series so she has to be removed from the narrative. I remember thinking at the end of WoK, "Wow how is he going to handle Jasnah mentoring Shallon going forward, she clearly has too much knowledge". So I expected something to happen to separate the two of them early in WoR. The way that it happened was what frustrated me. "Killing" her off just felt like weak writing and a pretty obvious fake out. My dislike of Renarin has absolutely nothing to do with his autism. My dislike of him is because of his personality and selfishness. He is the son of a major power and he needs to support his house and family. Throughout the first two books he repeatedly displays sheer stupidity over and over again and endangers his entire house! He has a "blood disorder" that renders him unsuitable for military training yet he insists on continuing to avoid any other calling. His brother and father love him so (assuming that Brandon has a complete picture of him in his head/notes) his personality cannot be as bad as shown to the readers through the first two books. Shards, as described, are critical to military success so when Dalinar gave his plate, Renarin should have declined it so it would actually be used. When Adolin started winning shards he again should have declined a blade so it could be used by someone in Dalinar's forces who would be more effective. Keeping either or both of those was pure selfishness and an act that makes Renarin more like Sadeas than Dalinar or Adolin. He actively weakened his family, after they were already dealt a harsh blow at the Tower, by keeping those shards! That is the worst action depicted so far in the books by anyone other than Sadeas towards house Kholin! When he did take the blade and heard screaming he should have immediately told his father and renounced the blade and plate. It was obvious he could not wield them. His father had visions, he would be receptive to Renarin experiencing something extra-natural. Those shards in the hands of a fighter would have meant who knows how many house Kholin soldier's lives being saved on bridge runs after he received them! So we already have the 2nd greatest villain to house Kholin before this making his betrayals even worse. Just think about it, Renarin's selfishness is directly responsible for more Kholin deaths than Amaram's betrayals. Finally the duel. By joining the duel he prevented someone else who could have helped from joining in the fight. He knew that he could not fight (because of the screaming) so by joining he significantly increased the chances that Adolin would lose. It is probable that he did it out of love for his brother, but that incredibly serious lack of judgement is further proof that he has no business being a shard bearer. It is one thing to be emotional if you can back it up with ability, but Renarin has neither. I have no doubts that as he grows as a Radiant his character will change...but to date his the greatest (still living) villain for house Kholin. I suspect that Brandon intends a very strong redemption story for him but it remains to be seen how many books that will take to play out. Great post, thanks! I really agree across the board with you here and I think you phrased my frustrations with Kaladin's journey in WoR better than I could, thank you!

The eyes, I picture Szeth as asian and cannot shake that image.

Spoilers follow: I feel that the Jasnah scenes were just poorly written. She was too well developed a character to kill off that quickly with too many unanswered questions. Similar to the end of a Dance With Dragons there is too much build up (R+L=J for example) that would be wasted without something happening other than what was visibly described. With Jasnah and Szeth both coming back now nobody feels in danger to me. I need several major characters to actually die to regain that sense of potential danger. Renarin is a truly horrible character. As described he is a shallow, 2 dimensional character. He is incredibly selfish and actively detrimental to his family. As depicted so far he has been more harmful to the Kholin's than anyone but Sadeas! Brandon will have to take a 180o in describing him in future books for me to see him as anything but just a terribly written, incomplete character. I think book 1 has the downward spiral Kaladin goes on carry on a bit long. It feels pretty drawn out, ultimately the redemption at the Tower is worth it, but it felt dragged out. I also felt that he reverted a bit in book 2 and regressed some. This left me wondering what Syl saw in him at times. I have to assume it was potential more than anything else.

I do not believe Listeners can or will become Radiants. My personal speculation is that spren bonding with humans, forming the Radiants allowed Odium to bond void spren with Listeners and form more varieties of Voidbringers. I believe the recreance was the Knights intentionally breaking their oaths, with their spren in agreement, in order to stop Odium's voidbringers from being as powerful/numerous. Incidentally I also would not be surprised if 1 of the 10 orders kept their oaths (in Shinovar perhaps?) and that is what allowed the Listeners to retain the ability to bond to spren for the forms they did have, albeit in reduced numbers. Just speculation on my part of course.

I think its definitely a squire thing. If he had a spren of his own that would have been called out/shown. Further there were specific mentions of Windrunner squires and Kaladin had just spoken a new oath.