The Recreance

[Cayden]

I dont believe it really, I think that it was orchestrated in part by Odium. Even if it was some sort of pact between the KR and Odium to abandon their Oaths and Odium would leave the planet alone.

 

To me the Recreance and Odium going away for a long time makes perfect sense from Odiums perspective. What is 4500 years to the life of a Shard? From what i've read they can think very long term. and While the KR were alive, while the Heralds upheld their Oaths then he was far more limited in what he could do. 

 

I think it was a way to systematically weaken mankind and trick them into eradicating their only hope for survival, so he could merely have set all this in motion and then gone away for a nice little vacation, then waited for the conditions to be just right, knowing that eventually some human or another would be stupid enough to start the ball rolling. Assuming he didnt orchestrate that from a distance using his Unmade, afterall we know they can effect people by their mere proximity. what would happen if they deliberately focused on someone? Could they do the same as the Stormfather and give people visions?

[Cayden]

I made a theory on it. Evidence is lacking... but consider this:

 

Why is there not a Desolation every year? Desolations happened every hundred years or so, if not longer. Odium might have to rebuild his forces, sure, but if everyone just remembers that the parshmen are evil and kills them all off, then Odium would be screwed. The fact that Odium lets humanity rebuild every time he attacks with the Desolation does not fit Odium's personality. Therefore, I think he's limited - he can only attack when humanity has sufficiently rebuilt its forces. If Surgebinders never reach a certain number, then Odium can't attack. Or he can only attack in proportion to the number of Surgebinders or something. If there's less Surgebinders, the Desolations become less scary.

 

It's speculative, and uncertain. We don't know enough. I think the theory might have some merit though.

 

Unless he cannot initiate the desolation? what if it has to be a willing participation from the first Parshman/endi? what if they have to be the one to open the door. Before that he can only nudge in the right direction and prod here and there?

 

The Nohadon vision says about the surgebinder causing wars, but it never says against whom. What if part of it was against the Parsh race of that time? and that triggered them to give in to the Void spren? 

[Shards of Mist]

I think that Odium is limited by the Oathpact with the Heralds. I believe that as long as they suffer, he is bound. I don't think that the Oathpact was destroyed when the other Heralds deserted, it was just all put on Taln's shoulders then.

I think the Heralds choose when to end the suffering. I think(when there were 10 of them) when one of them breaks, they all come back and prepare for the fight once again. The reason that peace has lasted 4000 years is because of Taln IMO. His resolve is stronger. He was able to hold out longer than the others were. It's also why he's now mad.

[Luke.spence]

Ok, so building on your theory, here's what I think:

 

I think the Heralds Oathpact is the key here. We know that when they weren't on Roshar preparing for a Desolation, they were being tortured (most likely on Rayse). Why would that happen? Also, why had Voidspren not appeared to the Parshendi before now?

 

I think the Oathpact made Odium only bring as much force to bear as the Heralds had available. In turn, when the desolation was over, the Heralds would turn themselves over for torture at Odium's hand. Torturing mankind's hero seems like something that Odium would enjoy.

 

I think the limiting factor here was the Nahel bond. Odium could only send as many voidspren to bond Parshendi as there were human Nahel bonds. The larger the KR force got, the larger the force of Voidbringers as well, therefore worse and worse desolations. The KR figured this out sooner or later, and decided that saving the world from desolations was worth the price of killing off their spren (who knows, maybe the spren helped convince them).

 

The biggest problem is that the KR were still around after the Heralds left. I can't figure out how that works in.

[Jreengus Occured]

 Do we have any idea when the day of recreance occured? The wiki only lists it as happening prior to the Heirocracy. I'm asking because in Eshonai's interludes she refers at least twice to the time when The Listners escaped Odium as "centuries ago" given the last desolation was 4500 it seems unlikely that was when The Last Legion broke free. The only major event I can think of that could have happened centuries ago is The Recreance so I'm wondering if there is a connection there, I can maybe see the KR doing what they did if it offered an entire race a chance at freedom, hell some orders like the windrunners could be looking at a conflict of oaths either way.

 

Of course everyone is talking about the Recreance as happening shortly after the final desolation which would screw with this theory quite a lot. So I'm wondering if I missed something.

Edited March 11, 2014 by Jreengus Occured

[Numb]

In the visions of Dalinar Honor mentioned that Odium realized he didn't have continually fight man but instead just leave them alone and they would destroy themselves more than if he actively tried. When you have a larger foe you tend to forget your differences and bond together to fight said foe so it makes sense for Odium to leave them alone. 

 

What if previous desolations were caused by Odium but he figured out if he left people alone they would eventually bring about their own desolation so he waited all this time until they have basically no defense against the Voidbringers. I mean look at the history, they actively destroyed information that could help and they pushed a race of people into a corner which in turn started the Voidbringers coming back without any Radiant/Heralds to save them.

[Luke.spence]

 In Eshonai's interludes she refers at least twice to the time when The Listners escaped Odium as "centuries ago" given the last desolation was 4500 it seems unlikely that was when The Last Legion broke free. The only major event I can think of that could have happened centuries ago is The Recreance so I'm wondering if there is a connection there, I can maybe see the KR doing what they did if it offered an entire race a chance at freedom, hell some orders like the windrunners could be looking at a conflict of oaths either way.

 

Yeah, when the KR forsook their oaths, it might have killed off/banished the Voidspren at the same time, effectively freeing the Parshendi.

[Cayden]

 Do we have any idea when the day of recreance occured? The wiki only lists it as happening prior to the Heirocracy. I'm asking because in Eshonai's interludes she refers at least twice to the time when The Listners escaped Odium as "centuries ago" given the last desolation was 4500 it seems unlikely that was when The Last Legion broke free. The only major event I can think of that could have happened centuries ago is The Recreance so I'm wondering if there is a connection there, I can maybe see the KR doing what they did if it offered an entire race a chance at freedom, hell some orders like the windrunners could be looking at a conflict of oaths either way.

 

Of course everyone is talking about the Recreance as happening shortly after the final desolation which would screw with this theory quite a lot. So I'm wondering if I missed something.

 

This is one of the reasons I feel like the Recreance was designed to banish all intelligent spren from Roshar. Makes me wonder if Feverstone Keep was near the shattered plains and whether they were fighting the Parshendi of that time or whether it was against humans.

 

Afterall in WoR they state that the current warcamps were a satellite city, what if it was actually a Keep designed as a last bastion against what remained of Odiums forces.

 

Then the KR and Parshendi made a deal to banish the spren. Both sides agreeing to give up the power in order to stop their Gods from forcing them into things?

 

Theres just so many possibilities its unreal, all of them as likely as another.

[EHyde]

Why is there not a Desolation every year? Desolations happened every hundred years or so, if not longer. Odium might have to rebuild his forces, sure, but if everyone just remembers that the parshmen are evil and kills them all off, then Odium would be screwed. The fact that Odium lets humanity rebuild every time he attacks with the Desolation does not fit Odium's personality. Therefore, I think he's limited - he can only attack when humanity has sufficiently rebuilt its forces. If Surgebinders never reach a certain number, then Odium can't attack. Or he can only attack in proportion to the number of Surgebinders or something. If there's less Surgebinders, the Desolations become less scary.

Were there even Surgebinders at the time of the earliest desolations, though? We know from Dalinar's vision that Surgebinders were created by spren "wishing to imitate what [the Almighty] had given men" and that the Almighty was surprised by their appearance. No timeframe was given but it seems to me that there would have had to be at least some Desolations before the Radiants were formed.

I think that Odium is limited by the Oathpact with the Heralds. I believe that as long as they suffer, he is bound. I don't think that the Oathpact was destroyed when the other Heralds deserted, it was just all put on Taln's shoulders then. I think the Heralds choose when to end the suffering. I think(when there were 10 of them) when one of them breaks, they all come back and prepare for the fight once again. The reason that peace has lasted 4000 years is because of Taln IMO. His resolve is stronger. He was able to hold out longer than the others were. It's also why he's now mad.

That makes sense with the quote from Taravangian's diagram, "The Ancient of Stones must finally begin to crack It is a wonder that upon his will rested the prosperity and peace of a world for over four millennia"

[Luke.spence]

Maybe Odium killed Honor for the "breach of contract" from the Heralds. I'm sure Odium isn't the kind to let the 9 just walk away, no questions asked, limiting Odium to 0 Desolations for 4,500 years. 

[Kessler]

I think Heralds are linked with Recreance. They decided to give up and then told KR that the war was won, but they needed to abandon their Oaths and banish Spren, so the Desolations will be ended once and for all. Which is half-true, since it did delay the Desolation, but at cost. Odium took advantage of the event to attack and destroy Honor and after that subtly influenced the world to stagnate and be weakened by constant wars (for example by arranging the Thrill for Alethi).  

[name_here]

The impression I got from comments about inevitability and what Syl said after the bond started degrading is that the KR found their oaths trapping them in a contradiction. No matter what they did, they would violate their ideals and kill their spren. So they broke their oaths by quitting instead of breaking their oaths by killing.

 

I'm rather firmly convinced that Surgebinding does not cause Desolations. Jasnah quite clearly states that the spren are returning because the Desolation threatens their existence as well. Also, given what Syl says about intelligent spren and the Honorblades, Desolations predate nahelbonds. Nalan appears to have the causation backwards.

[Lugonn]

The impression I got from comments about inevitability and what Syl said after the bond started degrading is that the KR found their oaths trapping them in a contradiction. No matter what they did, they would violate their ideals and kill their spren. So they broke their oaths by quitting instead of breaking their oaths by killing.

 

 

 

I doubt it, it seems the Recreance was the only mass betrayal of oaths. Syl was bonded before after all and she turned out fine. The Diagram seems to say that the Desolations are timed on the Heralds, Taln breaking is what sets it off.

[shinintendo]

What if Someone took control over them(or their spren and by that over them) and made them turn on the normal humans. it's to break the bond or to kill innocent people, that's motive enough to break the bond.

 

Or what if they knew that the more KR there are the more people will die(maybe more storms/voidbringers). I mean the "deal" made with Odium(the whole choose a champion and challenge Odium's champion to a duel).

Edited March 11, 2014 by shinintendo

[marianmi]

I made a theory on it. Evidence is lacking... but consider this:

 

Why is there not a Desolation every year? Desolations happened every hundred years or so, if not longer. Odium might have to rebuild his forces, sure, but if everyone just remembers that the parshmen are evil and kills them all off, then Odium would be screwed. The fact that Odium lets humanity rebuild every time he attacks with the Desolation does not fit Odium's personality. Therefore, I think he's limited - he can only attack when humanity has sufficiently rebuilt its forces. If Surgebinders never reach a certain number, then Odium can't attack. Or he can only attack in proportion to the number of Surgebinders or something. If there's less Surgebinders, the Desolations become less scary.

 

It's speculative, and uncertain. We don't know enough. I think the theory might have some merit though.

 

There were Desolation before any surgebinders existed.

Heralds would come and teach people how to use bronze.

So what you are saying is ver very unlikely.

[marianmi]

I doubt it, it seems the Recreance was the only mass betrayal of oaths. Syl was bonded before after all and she turned out fine. The Diagram seems to say that the Desolations are timed on the Heralds, Taln breaking is what sets it off.

 

I am tired of responding to this - HOW WAS SYL BOUND? She never was. (sorry for double post)

Edited March 12, 2014 by marianmi

[Moogle]

There were Desolation before any surgebinders existed.

Heralds would come and teach people how to use bronze.

So what you are saying is ver very unlikely.

 

I'm not sure how these thoughts are related. Are you saying that Surgebinders didn't exist when people had to learn how to use bronze? The Prelude to The Way of Kings has Radiants intermixed with people wearing primitive clothing, so that doesn't quite make sense to me.

 

 

There were so many corpses, and among them walked the living. Men in primitive wraps, carrying spears topped by bronze heads. Juxtaposed between them were others in gleaming plate armor. One group walked past, four men in their ragged tanned skins or shoddy leather joining a powerful figure in beautiful silver plate, amazingly intricate. Such a contrast.

 

It seems very likely there were Surgebinders amongst the primitive societies that survived the Desolations.

 

I am tired of responding to this - HOW WAS SYL BOUND? She never was. (sorry for double post)

 

From TWOK:

 

“I thought you didn’t like killing.”

“I hate it,” she said, growing more translucent. “But I’ve helped men kill before.”

Kaladin froze on the ladder. “What?”

“It’s true,” she said. “I can remember it, just faintly.”

 

Where are you getting this idea that she's never bound someone before? You seem very confident.

Edited March 12, 2014 by Moogle

[Bramble Thorn]

2. I doubt that honorspren would do something like that.  It kind of is the opposite of "protecting".

 

Devils Advocate here. The Stormfather tried to kill Dalinar, Kaladin, Shallan, and the entire army of thousands around them. All of whom were innocent, and were in fact following Tanavasts Visions. Visions he sent because the Almighty required it of him. This is pretty much really, really, dishonorable. Now, being both spren and a splinter of Honor, he is by definition an Honor spren. He was able to do this in spite of that, and doing it did not kill him.

So yeah, I can see how it might be possible you spren to farm broken people to bond with, despite being honor spren. Remember, one of the Words of Radiance epigraphs implied that the oath system may be an artificial construct, instated so that one of the Heralds would not start killing all the surge binders...

 

But as for Ishi’Elin, his was the part most important at their inception; he readily

understood the implications of Surges being granted to men, and caused organization to

be thrust upon them; as having too great power, he let it be known that he would destroy

each and every one, unless they agreed to be bound by precepts and laws.

—From Words of Radiance, chapter 2, page 4

 

Now some of this is almost certainly wrong, as current consensus is surge binders came before knights radiant, who were founded after the Heralds had returned to Damnation following a Desolation. But the consequences for dishonorable action (death of the spren) may be consequence of the Nahel Bond as an artificial construct, and only when the human does it.

[Slater]

I'm not sure how these thoughts are related. Are you saying that Surgebinders didn't exist when people had to learn how to use bronze? The Prelude to The Way of Kings has Radiants intermixed with people wearing primitive clothing, so that doesn't quite make sense to me.

 

 

It seems very likely there were Surgebinders amongst the primitive societies that survived the Desolations.

 

 

From TWOK:

 

Where are you getting this idea that she's never bound someone before? You seem very confident.

 

The prelude in Way of Kings take place at the LAST Desolation Where the KR had already existed for centuries. Besides that when the KR formed in the first place they where aware of the Heralds and named them Patrons which means the Heralds had already been through desolations and used there powers in ways that the spren then decided to imitate. Also sense both Honor and the Heralds were surprised by the KR that means regular people having bonded with spren before them couldn't have happened, as then they would not have been surprised by something like this happening.

 

Finally Ishar forced them into following laws because he realized what there powers could do unchecked . If Surgebinders were around before this then laws would have already been in place about them. Sense surgebinders are mentioned in Nohadons flashback I'm willing to bet that his desolation and it's aftermath is when the bonds where first formed and by the time the Heralds returned they had organized into the KR.

Edited March 12, 2014 by Slater130

[marianmi]

I'm not sure how these thoughts are related. Are you saying that Surgebinders didn't exist when people had to learn how to use bronze? The Prelude to The Way of Kings has Radiants intermixed with people wearing primitive clothing, so that doesn't quite make sense to me.

It seems very likely there were Surgebinders amongst the primitive societies that survived the Desolations.

 

Right, the Almighty was surprised about the Radiants, not surgebinders. My bad. Indeed, it's not clear when surgebinders appeared.

On the other hand, it's interesting how the spren organized themselves, not binding random people anymore, but only those that speak oaths. I'm assuming there were no oaths for surgebinders => their spren did not "die" when a surgebinder would be nasty.

 

 

From TWOK:

Where are you getting this idea that she's never bound someone before? You seem very confident.

 

Well, almost all bonded spren died at the Recereance. We've seen in the vision the Windrunners all dropping the shardblades. So how did she survived then? The only explanation is that - she was not bonded then, maybe her radiant was dead; or she "helped kill men before" in some other way, not as a shardblade.

[Vortaan]

The prelude in Way of Kings take place at the LAST Desolation Where the KR had already existed for centuries. Besides that when the KR formed in the first place they where aware of the Heralds and named them Patrons which means the Heralds had already been through desolations and used there powers in ways that the spren then decided to imitate. Also sense both Honor and the Heralds were surprised by the KR that means regular people having bonded with spren before them couldn't have happened, as then they would not have been surprised by something like this happening.

 

Finally Ishar forced them into following laws because he realized what there powers could do unchecked . If Surgebinders were around before this then laws would have already been in place about them. Sense surgebinders are mentioned in Nohadons flashback I'm willing to bet that his desolation and it's aftermath is when the bonds where first formed and by the time the Heralds returned they had organized into the KR.

 

To your second point: you are assuming that Surgebinders unrestricted by laws would be easy to stop. Let's assume that any Surgebinder pre-Radiants had even Szeth's level of Surgebinding... how effective were any conventional means of stopping him, again? That doesn't even touch Jasnah, or even Lift. I wouldn't doubt that Surgebinders were effectively uncontrollable until the Heralds forced organization onto them, probably post-Nohadon. In fact, Nohadon might have been the one to instigate it

[Moogle]

Well, almost all bonded spren died at the Recereance. We've seen in the vision the Windrunners all dropping the shardblades. So how did she survived then? The only explanation is that - she was not bonded then, maybe her radiant was dead; or she "helped kill men before" in some other way, not as a shardblade.

 

Liespren are the only known group of spren that were all bonded. Honorspren like Syl were known to be picky, so it is likely that Syl was not bonded at the time of the Recreance. However, if she helped men kill before, it is likely that she was bonded to a Radiant who had died in a previous Desolation (or any other time) and was stuck in Shadesmar when the Recreance happened.

 

Spren don't die if their Radiants die. It's just if they betray their oaths. And even that doesn't kill them, probably. It seems that the Radiants specifically summoned them as Shardblades and then locked them in that form. Syl didn't seem to be dead in WoR, just back in Shadesmar because the bond couldn't be sustained. The Stormfather prevents her from returning to Kaladin again, after all - if she was dead, that wouldn't have happened.

Edited March 12, 2014 by Moogle

[Seloun]

Well, almost all bonded spren died at the Recereance. We've seen in the vision the Windrunners all dropping the shardblades. So how did she survived then? The only explanation is that - she was not bonded then, maybe her radiant was dead; or she "helped kill men before" in some other way, not as a shardblade.

 

We still don't know what happens if the Radiant dies without breaking their oath. Given that the world isn't covered in Shardblades, it seems almost a given that there's either some way to stop being a Radiant/Surgebinder without resulting in dead spren or some way to recycle them.

 

I still feel it's hard to justify the Feverstone Keep vision without the spren somehow being responsible for something; assuming the vision is accurate, a whole lot of Windrunners (among the most honorable individuals on the planet) killed off their spren and walked away without any remorse. I still think bond-farming is a reasonable theory at this point (especially if the bond-farming was _encouraged_ by Tanavast or the Heralds). I concede there isn't a lot of evidence for the spren being ashamed of anything, but, again, if it wasn't something the spren did, why such a brutal method?

[Bramble Thorn]

To your second point: you are assuming that Surgebinders unrestricted by laws would be easy to stop. Let's assume that any Surgebinder pre-Radiants had even Szeth's level of Surgebinding... how effective were any conventional means of stopping him, again? That doesn't even touch Jasnah, or even Lift. I wouldn't doubt that Surgebinders were effectively uncontrollable until the Heralds forced organization onto them, probably post-Nohadon. In fact, Nohadon might have been the one to instigate it

 

I think Slater130's theory is that when the first Surgebinders were bonded, they were had the power of a full Knight Radiant who had sworn the full sequence of Ideals. And not all them were worthy of that power, and some chose poorly in how they used it. And some spren chose to bond with people who should never have been given such power ("not all were as discerning as Honor spren")

 

This came about between Desolations, when the Heralds were absent. So when the Desolation finally came one or two centuries later, It went really badly. Nohadon said it was one of the worst Desolations to date. Not necessarily because Odiums forces became more powerful (although this is when I think he enslaved the Parshendi into Voidbringers), but because some of those new Surgebinders were busy trying to become king of the hill, or some other agenda, instead of stopping the Apocalypse. Conflicts between opposed surgebinders may have been letting the world burn faster.

 

The Herald saw this and laid down an ultimatum. I don't know if he could have killed every surgebinder that refused, but even the fact that he made the threat would make a big difference, like an Archangel coming down from on high to personally slap you upside the head. 

 

Nohadon's solution to that was the oaths, so power was tiered to the responsibility you had shown. Nahel bond but no oaths and you can inhale Stormlight only. As Lopen can attest, that alone is a lot. When you actually understand the other Ideals and agree to be bound by them, you get the actual surges, and become increasingly powerful and efficient using them. Accept more responsibility, get more power.

 

The death of the spren may be an unfortunate side effect of doing things this way, or may be intentional. I think the bonded spren has to agree for the upgrade to occur. I also think the consequences for the oaths being broken grow more severe as more are sworn and accepted. No Oaths sworn, no penalty. Breaking after the universal boilerplate oath, probably low cost to the spren as well. The Reason Sly survived Kaladin breaking the oath bond, was he was not a Knight Radiant yet. Those at the recreance were all Knights Radiant who had sworn at least 3 oaths. 

 

Basically, a way to avoid a moral hazard when the spren choose to bond. So they bear the consequences of offering great power to those who misuse it, and not just those poor mortals in the physical realm.

 

Edit: Or at least that is my theory, if not Slaters.

Edited March 12, 2014 by Bramble Thorn

[marianmi]

Liespren are the only known group of spren that were all bonded.

Then how any of them survived? Or you think they all died then, then others were formed out of Honor splintering?

 

* What happened at the recreance to the radiants that were of lesser levels? Maybe Syl was bonded then, but smaller level, and she was not "locked"? (another proof that Syl was bonded before is that her first transformation was in Shardblade, I guess, a "familiar" form)

 

* I wonder how much control spren have in their transformations ... can they be forced into a shape, then left in that shape?

 

* Re-reading chapter 52 TwoK - there were others waiting for those radiants - their squires? Also, "They were the first, and they were also the last" - what does that mean? Windrunners and stonewards were the first to emerge as radiants with oaths, and were the last to leave their shards? Or something else?