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[OB] Oathbringer chapters 10-12


Mestiv

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2 hours ago, Slothspren said:

 Not to mention I am really REALLY hating Dalinar being so possessive about Radiants and Kaladin being so subservient to him. They are both Radiants and by the KR law they are both equals from different orders. And the fate of that Honorblade should be decided by Kaladin not Dalinar, it is a Windrunner blade which belongs to the patron of their order. Ideally it should be locked away in Windrunner custody. 

I think I agree. The problem with reading just a few chapters of Oathbringer weekly is that our perception of the timeline gets distorted and we can give too much attention to small details that aren't important, so this may be one of those issues. BUT it just feels strange that Dalinar and the other Knights Radiant haven't sat down and talked about what being a KR means and what their roles are. 

Ok, first of all, it does make sense that the few KR around Dalinar would automatically be subservient to him. Renarin, Shallan and Kaladin were already loyal and obeying Dalinar before the KR stuff started happening and Dalinar was the one who made it known that he was refounding the KR. Neither Shallan or Renarin have shown any eagerness to lead yet, and Kaladin has been serving in the army for years, working under his superior wouldn't seem strange at all. Even Mr. T's mysterious surgebinder will probably automatically follow Dalinar's command. But what happens when other surgebinders do being to show up? Some, like Lift, will probably not have allegiances to anyone and just want to stop the upcoming Desolation, but there will definitely be others who are loyal to their country. Others might want to stop the Desolation, but will see no reason to try and do it Dalinar's way (whatever that is.) And what if another Bondsmith appears who has different methods than Dalinar? Would Dalinar try to co-lead or would he decide that that Bondsmith is in the wrong and try to wrest power away? (I think he would.)

I think that the real issue is that by being the 'Highking' of Alethkar AND refounding/leading the Knights Radiant, Dalinar is unintentionally setting up the Knights Radiant as an Alethi group, which will definitely create factions among the surgebinders. So, Dalinar has a few options: 

  • Dalinar can step down as the Alethi Highking to lead the Knights Radiant, or co-lead it with the other two Bondsmiths (if they show up.)
  • Or Dalinar should realize that he was never supposed to lead the KR. (I like this idea better.) Each Order had their own Herald that they followed, so it seems strange to me that they would all look to the Bondsmith's Order specifically, especially since Windrunner's also have the leadership attributes. We know that all the Orders worked together, but that there was a good bit of infighting. Skybreakers acted as the KRPD (Knights Radiant Police Department), so other orders could have filled in similar roles, but I think each order was ultimately self-governing and followed their own specific goals. So Dalinar could continue to be Highking, but realize that he should treat the other KR's more as independent peers, no as subordinates. 

IF the second option is right, then I am really hoping that it's addressed in this book, since it's not only focused on Dalinar's bloodsoaked past, but it will also be dealing heavily with the rebuilding of the KR and Shallan's discoveries of the KR's history.

Personally, I would love it if either Shallan or Renarin realize that they're not doing what they're supposed to be doing and break away from Dalinar. Obviously, since Dalinar was a warrior and is now the army commander/Hightking of an militaristic country, he will treat the KR as an army and will use the surgebinders around him as soldiers and pawns (which isn't necessarily a bad thing.) Wouldn't it be great if Renarin realizes that he's not supposed to be fighting any wars or leading the men, especially since Truthwatchers attributes are Learned/Giving and Creative/Honesty? This lines up perfectly with his character: he grew up the son of a Highprince in a country where being a soldier is considered divine, but he's so ill-suited for fighting that even his father has tried to convince him to become an ardent. His surges, Progression and Illumination won't be very handy in a fight, but for the first time in his life, he'll be good at something and will be needed, just not as a soldier. I'm crossing my fingers that he'll realize this, realize that as a Truthwatcher, he shouldn't be subservient to his father, and insist on doing his own thing, possibly discovering the 'truth' about the Recreance/Desolations/Spren/Shards while giving to those in need and instructing others how to prepare for the Desolation. The same can be said for Lift and maybe Shallan, but I really like the idea that every order will fight/save the world in different ways and Dalinar just hasn't realized it yet. 

Edited by Pammie
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9 hours ago, robardin said:

I agree, the tenor of the Azish Spanreed Correspondence didn't sound like Gawx - it's a "representative". The question is, was that due to:

  • (A) A usurpation of power (deliberate sidestepping of Gawx)
  • (B) Gawx explicitly having delegated the discussion with Dalinar, because He Couldn't Be Bothered
  • (C) A substitution out of necessity (Gawx was Seriously Indisposed or Busy Doing Something Else At The Last Minute) where the viziers didn't want to admit what was up with Gawx to a foreign leader

Option A doesn't seem right; from what we saw in Edgedancer, at least, it seems Gawx really is respected as the Prime Aqasix and not just a figurehead (indeed, he had always been Prime...). And while a "freeze out" of Gawx is imaginable, if they didn't start out that way from Day One, it hasn't been long enough (I think) for them to start doing this sort of thing. It'd start with some core group browbeating Gawx more and more with "let us handle this", and Gawx would have a second group of favor seekers pushing him to push back (or act) against them ("be your own man - and think about THIS angle we've got while you're being your own man").

Option B doesn't seem right, either, also from what we saw in Edgedancer, Gawx is actually doing ruling type stuff as Prime and not just feasting while his advisors do the administrating.

So if it's Option C, what would be more important or more distracting to Gawx than keeping a spanreed appointment to talk to Dalinar? Maybe we'll find out when a Lift POV is Chapter 13 next week

I was thinking option d.. Gawx was there and the information on negotiations and what was going on was from him, though written it was cleaned up. But then they interfered and did the backtrack, without his knowledge.

Hoping now he tells lift!

 

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@maxal I can't believe Adolin's murder will remain hidden. I can't believe he'll get a free pass for his actions. I mean, this isn't Westeros.

So, let's assume Adolin will eventually be outed as Sadeas's murderer and list out some recent events, in order:

  1. Adolin murdered Sadeas.
  2. A member of Sebarial's army is murdered in the same manner as Sadeas.
  3. Elhokar makes Dalinar highking of Urithiru.
  4. Adolin becomes highprince of Kholinar.

From the perspective of the other highprinces, it's going to look like Elhokar and Dalinar are, at best, trying to cover for a sociopathic Adolin by putting him in an untouchable position ex post facto and, at worst, actually complicit in the murders. Throw into this that the second murder takes place among Sebarial's camp, and the Kholins will be hemorrhaging allies. Even if Ialai isn't behind the second murder, you know she'll take advantage of it to attack them politically.

After Adolin's actions come to light, if no punishment is meted out, Alethkar will divide back into competing princedoms. In order to keep the kingdom together, Elhokar will have to come down hard on Adolin. My gut tells me the punishment will involve giving his Shards to Sadeas's princedom as recompense. Possibly land as well. I can't see Adolin fighting the punishment. If he did, Elhokar (and Dalinar) would have to side with the other highprinces and make war upon Adolin in order to keep the country unified. Aside from the practical issues of rebelling against his father, cousin, and the rest of Alethkar, Adolin seems like the type who would rather accept his punishment for the good of others than fight tooth and nail against it.

@muco As for whether Bridge Four will fight against Adolin's punishment... they didn't fight Kaladin's imprisonment. They were told not to do anything, and they followed orders. I can't imagine they'll act differently here. Same goes for the Kholinar army. I believe most of the Kholinar army will refuse to rebel against Dalinar. They were recruited to fight for Dalinar, not his son, and it'll be awhile before they're "Adolin's" men.

 

Of course, it's entirely possible that the plot requires a divided Alethkar. Desolations destroy civilization after all. Adolin might accept punishment and still see Alethkar break apart. Knowing that he caused the division of the country his father and uncle built may be consequence enough for Adolin. As a silver lining, if Alethkar divides, the Sadeas princedom could be overrun by voidbringers and receive no help from its neighbors. I'm imagining a scene where Ialai gets her comeuppance as a snack for a hungry thunderclast.

I have a hard time believing the Rosharan nation-states we're accustomed to will remain static throughout the series. For this Desolation to live up to its hype, nations have to fall, and it can't just be ones we aren't attached to (like, who really cares if Babatharnam gets destroyed?). As we read this series, we should keep in mind that Brandon isn't afraid to kill characters or destroy places for a great plot. Much of what has been presented as rock-solid is probably going to end up with the consistency of Play-Doh.

 

Edited by Salkara
I should proofread better
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10 minutes ago, Salkara said:

Not really. From WoR Ch 66:

Quote

"How did the men take it?" [Kaladin] asked. "My imprisonment?"

"There was talk of breaking you out," Teft admitted softly. "I beat some sense into them."

 

 

So, there was tension and what happened to Kaladin is marked different to what we think will happen to Adolin.

Jailed for few days is different to what we are discussing would happen to Adolin.

 

Let's assume if Kaladin was kicked out of the army and shunted out of shattered plains, would Bridge 4 still have stuck with Dalinat & co?

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1 minute ago, muco said:

 

So, there was tension and what happened to Kaladin is marked different to what we think will happen to Adolin.

Jailed for few days is different to what we are discussing would happen to Adolin.

 

Let's assume if Kaladin was kicked out of the army and shunted out of shattered plains, would Bridge 4 still have stuck with Dalinat & co?

Kaladin was thrown in jail with no maximum sentence specified. As far as the men in Bridge Four knew, he could be in there for years, and they aren't the types to give lighteyes any benefit of the doubt (you know, because they were bridgemen... and had to push bridges through a hail of arrows without armor). Teft told them to stay in line though, so they did.

If Elhokar punishes Adolin, and Adolin accepts the punishment, I don't see Bridge Four or the Kholinar army rebelling. I can see them being upset, but that's all.

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9 minutes ago, Salkara said:

Kaladin was thrown in jail with no maximum sentence specified. As far as the men in Bridge Four knew, he could be in there for years, and they aren't the types to give lighteyes any benefit of the doubt (you know, because they were bridgemen... and had to push bridges through a hail of arrows without armor). Teft told them to stay in line though, so they did.

If Elhokar punishes Adolin, and Adolin accepts the punishment, I don't see Bridge Four or the Kholinar army rebelling. I can see them being upset, but that's all.

 

The normal Bridge 4 who were never associated with the army were ready to rebel because they did not understand better.

Teft is a veteran and understood the mood and scenario and hence why 'talked sense'.

 

Question still remains, if Kaladin was kicked out, like we assume will happen with Adolin, would Bridge 4 stick have stuck with Dalinar?

 

The reason why I ask this question is simply because Dalinar's army is in effect loyal to their commander, who for better part of few years happens to be Adolin.

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Just now, muco said:

 

The normal Bridge 4 who were never associated with the army were ready to rebel because they did not understand better.

Teft is a veteran and understood the mood and scenario and hence why 'talked sense'.

 

Question still remains, if Kaladin was kicked out, like we assume will happen with Adolin, would Bridge 4 stick have stuck with Dalinar?

 

The reason why I ask this question is simply because Dalinar's army is in effect loyal to their commander, who for better part of few years happens to be Adolin.

I'd argue that Dalinar's army is loyal to Dalinar. For the last few years, Adolin has been a commander in the army, but the commanders in the army were loyal to Dalinar. That will ebb as Adolin replaces the old guard (of which there is a vacuum after the Battle of Narak), but for the immediate future, the army will side with Dalinar over Adolin if it comes to rebellion.

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Okay, Bridge 4 isn't close to Adolin. I think they would feel bad for him if he were put on trial, but they would only defend him if Kaladin thought they needed to. I don't think Kaladin would try to prevent the trial by open rebellion.

I think Kaladin is going to break Adolin out and help him escape but that is as far as it will go.

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13 minutes ago, eveorjoy said:

Okay, Bridge 4 isn't close to Adolin. I think they would feel bad for him if he were put on trial, but they would only defend him if Kaladin thought they needed to. I don't think Kaladin would try to prevent the trial by open rebellion.

I think Kaladin is going to break Adolin out and help him escape but that is as far as it will go.

Renarin or Shallan could do the same.

I don't think Dalinar and Elhokar are in any position to punish severely Adolin as at least half the surgebinders and a lot other people will likely be on his side. A slap on the wrist is the most I see possible, though that doesn't mean Adolin won't take it hard.

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2 minutes ago, eveorjoy said:

Renarin and Shalan would likely help, but neither could help Adolin escape as far or as fast as the Windrunner.

Both can hide him with him with illumination. Urithiru is enormous and full of too many people to notice of there's suddenly one more darkeyestable boy. No need to be overly dramatic and fly away.

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7 minutes ago, Aleksiel said:

Both can hide him with him with illumination. Urithiru is enormous and full of too many people to notice of there's suddenly one more darkeyestable boy. No need to be overly dramatic and fly away.

But why keep him there? Oh well, I guess we shall see.

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48 minutes ago, Aleksiel said:

So he can revive his Blade thus becoming an ED, and explode with light in the middle of Urithiru Kaldin style. :lol: Talk about mitigating circumstances :ph34r:

I think he can revive his blade anywhere.

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8 minutes ago, Emerald101 said:

And considering the current lack of stormlight, it would be quite the waste the keep Adolin hidden by illumination 24/7, and also pretty inconvenient if he had to stick near Shallan or Renarin all the time.

He wouldn't need to be around either one after the illusion is created it would stick to him and feed on the light independently, technically speaking, but neither can create such masterful believable illusions at the moment. Though it can still be used for escape in the dark. He could just stay somewhere hidden after that. He could be transported via the oathgate (especially if in the mean time another one is opened). The details aren't important really. 

My main point is the majority of the Urithiru Radiants would be on Adolin's side, which should make Dalinar reluctant to punish him as severely as some suggest. Unless one believes Shallan would turn on Adolin.

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3 minutes ago, Aleksiel said:

He wouldn't need to be around either one after the illusion is created it would stick to him and feed on the light independently. 

Nope. Shallan's illusion failed without line of sight, unless she attached them to pattern. 

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Just now, Calderis said:

Nope. Shallan's illusion failed without line of sight, unless she attached them to pattern. 

Which technically means being around Shallan all the time is not a requirement, though Pattern obviously can't stay away from her indefinitely. But that's beside the point, really.

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Why even bother with a magical illusion? Put Adolin in some scruffy clothes, dye his hair, give him some eye-darkening drops and forbid him from bathing for 3 days. No one would ever suspect it's really him.

Possibly, he may prefer death to this treatment.

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20 hours ago, Erunion said:

On Adolin: his murder investigation will likely play out in a way none of us expect, and it will have plenty of good drama and interesting story @maxal - have faith in our Sanderson ;) 

Considering the fact we never expected a murdering spree, I would argue it is already unfolding in ways we haven't predicted. This being said, I really hope for an Adolin-centrist drama, no matter which way Brandon swings it. My actual fear are it will get lost within the mayhem and no consequences will fall onto Adolin.

19 hours ago, SLNC said:

The people would never accept him that way. They will want vengeance, we don't know what kind of guy Sadeas was to his people. Maybe he actually was loved by them? Either way, it is the way of the Alethi to exact vengeance.

Honestly, I think it could go various ways... It may be, as you are suggesting, Sadeas's men were deeply loyal to him and would feel inclined to avenge him. Or it could be some were unhappy with how things were managed, but kept their mouths closed because Sadeas was too powerful. Another option is, being a manipulative ambitious scumbag, Sadeas attracted manipulative ambitious scumbags around him which may mean one of them will be glad he is dead.

I currently consider the state of the former Sadeas's princedom to be a wild card: we know so little.

8 hours ago, redbishop said:

Another point I haven't seen discussed, which I will bring up because I don't buy Adolin-reawakens-his-blade (Because Adolin being an Edgedancer seems like it will take an unusual amount of character growth in unexpected directions):  Renarin returned the blade that Adolin won for him, for Adolin to decide how to dispose of it.  A few thoughts:

  1. Assuming it is of a more-suitable Order, will some trick of fate result in him reawakening it?  There are several Orders (Dustbringers, Willshapers, Stonewards... even Windrunners) I could find that as plausible.
  2. We have a precedent for what a sharpbearer-cum-KR does with a former shardblade - relinquish it to the ardents, for redistribution to someone they trust to decide.  This may eventually become the Stormfather, though that's a pet theory.
  3. Combining 1 and 2, Adolin will become a KR and relinquish his balde, asking Dalinar to decide what to do with his blade.  He'll ask the Stormfather, and I expect Very Interesting Things may result.

Did we ever get a description of Renarin's blade?  I believe we saw Elhokar's and Amaram's described, and at least one of them sounded Dustbringer-y.

Actually, the story has been hinting pretty strongly towards Adolin growing into an Edgedancer... The entire scene with Gallant was him looking towards the past, seeking solace in order to give himself time to remember Sureblood, the Rhysadium everyone is willing to forget. This is how it has been with Adolin for the past two books: always looking back, always having thoughts for the fallen, for the lost, for the forgotten. So when everyone are making plans, growing, learning how to obtain Shardblade, uniting the world, rescuing cities, what is Adolin doing? He is sadly remembering the companion he has lost and sought comfort into his father's former companion, the one he no more has time for.

The scene by itself, apart from being terribly sweet, sad and adorable, also showed us a side of Adolin we have rarely seen. Sad Adolin, melancholic Adolin, unsure Adolin, sensitive Adolin too and somehow it does fit with the Edgedancers. Wyndle, Lift, they would approve. 

Also, reviving a Shardblade is extraordinarily difficult, so difficult we cannot expect it to happen anymore than once, througout abnormal extraordinarily circumstances. Thus, the only reason Adolin reviving his Blade is a theory is not because of Adolin's character, but because of his behavior, of how he talks to it, of how he does seem like he has a stronger bond with it than most Shardbearers. Him ditching his current Blade, to pick up another one from an order other readers find more "suitable" just isn't going to be the same: the Blade won't be revived because it is Adolin, it will be revived because him and his Blade were an unlikely perfect match. A once in a lifetime event. Luck. It may not have worked with another Blade and no Adolin is incredibly unlikely to revive another Blade because the other Blade wouldn't be his "nameless Edgedancer Blade", it wouldn't be "the one he won in this duel where everyone took him for a loser back when he was just a kid". Maybe to readers, it does not matter so much, but to Adolin's character such details do matter. I think it was one of the purpose of this scene: to show just how sensitive and attached to things/people Adolin actually is.

Some of us find his behavior quite similar to Lift, different but similar.

7 hours ago, Salkara said:

@maxal I can't believe Adolin's murder will remain hidden. I can't believe he'll get a free pass for his actions. I mean, this isn't Westeros.

So, let's assume Adolin will eventually be outed as Sadeas's murderer and list out some recent events, in order:

  1. Adolin murdered Sadeas.
  2. A member of Sebarial's army is murdered in the same manner as Sadeas.
  3. Elhokar makes Dalinar highking of Urithiru.
  4. Adolin becomes highprince of Kholinar.

From the perspective of the other highprinces, it's going to look like Elhokar and Dalinar are, at best, trying to cover for a sociopathic Adolin by putting him in an untouchable position ex post facto and, at worst, actually complicit in the murders. Throw into this that the second murder takes place among Sebarial's camp, and the Kholins will be hemorrhaging allies. Even if Ialai isn't behind the second murder, you know she'll take advantage of it to attack them politically.

After Adolin's actions come to light, if no punishment is meted out, Alethkar will divide back into competing princedoms. In order to keep the kingdom together, Elhokar will have to come down hard on Adolin. My gut tells me the punishment will involve giving his Shards to Sadeas's princedom as recompense. Possibly land as well. I can't see Adolin fighting the punishment. If he did, Elhokar (and Dalinar) would have to side with the other highprinces and make war upon Adolin in order to keep the country unified. Aside from the practical issues of rebelling against his father, cousin, and the rest of Alethkar, Adolin seems like the type who would rather accept his punishment for the good of others than fight tooth and nail against it.

@muco As for whether Bridge Four will fight against Adolin's punishment... they didn't fight Kaladin's imprisonment. They were told not to do anything, and they followed orders. I can't imagine they'll act differently here. Same goes for the Kholinar army. I believe most of the Kholinar army will refuse to rebel against Dalinar. They were recruited to fight for Dalinar, not his son, and it'll be awhile before they're "Adolin's" men.

I like your commentary. I like the part where you state it may look from the other princedoms perspective as if Dalinar/Elhokar are trying to hide Adolin. It may look as if they had him kill Sadeas, on purpose, only to elevate him so he would be untouchable. It would be an interesting tangent for the story to take and it reconcile me, slightly, with the idea of Highprince Adolin.

I however am unsure Elhokar has the capacity and the will to take drastic actions against Adolin. I have considered Adolin may need to buy his way out by handing over the Shards he has won, including his own personal ones to his enemies. I do agree Adolin would accept his punishment or impose one onto himself, though if he is Highprince, he probably won't. 

I agree Bridge 4 would not get involve. They might be against it, they might approve of Adolin, but it is best to remember how Syl hates him. They are Windrunners squires. They may not hate him, but it may be an over-statement to say they would fight for him. They do not owe him anything, they likely tolerate him: it is Renarin they liked. The same may not be true about the Kholin army... Adolin has been with them since he was a teenager: they have seen him grow from green recruit to war general. Dalinar stated, back in WoK, how Adolin tend to be too friendly with the men, how the men liked him... We have seen leadership being exercised in various ways throughout the series: Dalinar leads because people both fear him and respect him for his bloody days, Kaladin leads because he is inspiring and Adolin leads because people just like him. They want to follow him, not because he is inspiring, not because he has charisma, not because he is fearsome nor cunning, they follow him because he puts his heart into everything. He cares and in the end, the men loves him for it, hence they follow him. How will they react if they are forced to choose in between Dalinar and Adolin? I cannot say, but I wouldn't say it is a done deal they could prefer Dalinar.  

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I think the story would be more interesting if Adolin was exiled at the end of this book. Hiding in Urithru would be pointless. What is he going to do while in hiding at Urithru? The only reason to keep someone in hiding would be if you could vindicate them somehow. Adolin did it. The only way to vindicate him is either a trial where his actions are found justified or his status places him beyond the law. I hope it is not the second. That would be dull. But I see no reason to hide Adolin at Urithru. If Shallan or Renarin help Adolin it would be by activating an Oathgate to get him out of there. 

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I really do see exile as the likeliest path for Adolin - one way or another. It might be imposed by the King, or self-imposed - hard to tell. But I am fairly confident that Adolin will have to deal with his crimes, and I can't see him getting executed by his cousin. 

Although that would be a twist ;)
 

Also, Adolin acts very edgendancer-ey. Remember the prostitute in Sadeas' warcamp? Adolin did. Remember poor Renarin, the boy on the spectrum shunned by his own society? Adolin did. Remember Sureblood, and Gallant, the brave horses who fought and one died for their masters? Adolin did. He remembers those that were forgotten. 

Further, the Edgedancers were famed for their grace in and out of battle, their refined bearing and their cultured attitude. Adolin fits all of that very well (his first duel in WOK Dalinar comments how watching him fight with a shardblade is like watching a dance, unlike most other fighting). 

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14 minutes ago, Erunion said:

I really do see exile as the likeliest path for Adolin - one way or another. It might be imposed by the King, or self-imposed - hard to tell. But I am fairly confident that Adolin will have to deal with his crimes, and I can't see him getting executed by his cousin. 

Although that would be a twist ;)

Don't you dare suggest this :o

15 minutes ago, Erunion said:

Also, Adolin acts very edgendancer-ey. Remember the prostitute in Sadeas' warcamp? Adolin did. Remember poor Renarin, the boy on the spectrum shunned by his own society? Adolin did. Remember Sureblood, and Gallant, the brave horses who fought and one died for their masters? Adolin did. He remembers those that were forgotten. 

Further, the Edgedancers were famed for their grace in and out of battle, their refined bearing and their cultured attitude. Adolin fits all of that very well (his first duel in WOK Dalinar comments how watching him fight with a shardblade is like watching a dance, unlike most other fighting). 

I would also add how Dalinar describes Adolin as "an artist with the Blade having one color to pain from" or something along those lines. Oddly enough, it fits so well within the Edgedancers, though I would argue Adolin may not be one of the circle's choices.

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