The morality of Adolin's actions

[maxal]

On 7/3/2017 at 8:46 AM, cometaryorbit said:

This is a tricky question partially because the situation is one we don't see in the modern Western/technologically-connected world (and haven't in centuries).

There really is no effective government or justice system over the highprinces; technically they are subject to the king, but this is very much an early-medieval feudal situation where the lords only listen to the king if it's in their own interest. Sadeas has an army personally loyal to him/his dynasty, not the kingdom as a whole; there is no real way for Elhokar (...or even a hypothetical halfway-competent, non-useless king of Alethkar...) to try and sentence Sadeas for his crimes - at least not without sparking a civil war while the kingdom as a whole is at war with an external enemy.

Given that, this is something that could be argued for ages. I think, technically, Adolin was probably still in the wrong since he acted totally alone without any kind of sanction.

However, depending on exactly how Alethi custom on these sorts of things works, if one wanted to defend Adolin's actions, one could argue that he was essentially acting as a representative of the Kholin dynasty, doing what Dalinar himself couldn't for political reasons. I think there's a plausible argument that Sadeas's betrayal of Dalinar in battle could be seen to have created a de facto state of war between the Kholins and the Sadeas, or at least been sufficient grounds for a reprisal.

Very good post! For my part, I have always found it baffling so many readers would judge Adolin so harshly and yet give a free pass to both Shallan and Jasnah. I think many are confused as to how modern day legal system do work and they ignore the truth likely is, among those three, Adolin is the one who would get the lesser penance.

Why?

Because Shallan poisoned her father and then she strangled him. It does not matter he was threatening her brother's life, he was not threatening hers. It isn't self-defense if you aren't the one being physically attacked. Sad, but true. Also, poison is always considered first degree murder as it is always intentional: you can't pretend it was an accident. The fact she add to it by strangulating him afterwards settles her case: maximum penance.

Because while Jasnah could argue she first attacked out of self-defense, she has no defense for killing fleeing men. Basic forensic would prove those men were killed while running away which would also count as first degree murder. Legal system says you are allowed to defend yourself, you aren't allow to dispense justice as you see fit.

On his side, Adolin is a soldier on duty who killed a traitor to the nation guilty of crime against humanity which has just uttered a war declaration. Under martial law, he'd probably be exonerated. Under regular law, he gets away with third degree murder, which is a much lesser penance. A very good lawyer could probably plead all sort of loopholes and reduce his penance, but the fact is, according to modern law, what Adolin did remain the lesser crime.

Hence, I am always surprised so many people are willing to sell Adolin to Odium for what he did.

Now, I will post this which was posted by @gbazz4 into another thread because I feel they are relevant here too.

 

Quote

Life before death

The Radiant seeks to defend life, always. He never kills unnecessarily, and never risks his own life for frivolous reasons. Living is harder than dying. The Radiant's duty is to live.

Strength before weakness

All men are weak at some time in their lives. The Radiant protects those who are weak, and uses his strength for others. Strength does not make one capable of rule; it makes one capable of service.

Journey before destination

There are always several ways to achieve a goal. Failure is preferable to winning through unjust means. Protecting ten innocents is not worth killing one. In the end, all men die. How you lived will be far more important to the Almighty than what you accomplished.

This is Teft explaining to Kaladin the meaning of the first oath, according to the Envisagers, back in WoK. I read a lot of people claiming Adolin violated the first oath or is unable to live by it. I strongly disagree.

Life before death

Many took it is means "You will not kill unless it is self-defense" which isn't quite right. While Radiants ought to defend life and ought not to waste theirs uselessly, it is never stated they cannot kill a foe responsible for killing and willing to kill thousand of innocents. Killing this one antagonist is preserving life and would thus be inline with the first oath.

Strength before weakness

Many took it Adolin murdering Sadeas meant he was too weak to seek another way. The oath instead means to use you strength to protect others which is exactly what Adolin did: he took his own personal strength, put it forward and remove the man likely to cause thousand of useless life. He took the cost to himself, just himself. He was strong. He didn't have someone else do it for him which is why I do think sending an assassin might have been worst.

Journey before destination

Many took it killing Sadeas meant Adolin put the end before the means, but my thoughts are they are forgetting what the end is and what the means is. It is said you should not kill 10 innocents to save one, but Sadeas is NOT an innocent. He is an evil man having killed the innocents: killing him saves those innocents, all of them. How you live is what matters, so how should you live? Should you live as the man knowing an antagonist has promised to wager war to your princedom, to kill your father and the king, to destroy the one chance you know humanity has to survive the Desolation but walked away because "Oh no murder is evil, it is against the law to murder a Highprince."? Or should you live as the man who did something ugly which needed to be done and thus taking all the cost onto himself, not on others?

I thus say, Adolin absolutely did not violate the first oath, even better, he is embracing it.

Edited July 6, 2017 by maxal

[Kav]

In regards to the theories about which order of Radiants Adolin will join (if any) I'm convinced he will become an Edgedancer after reviving his blade.

I just finished rereading WoR and while there's a few reasons I'm on board with this, the following scene in Ch.85 jumped out at me. 

 

“Adolin cursed and lunged for the assassin, but a fluttering tarp—brushed by the assassin in passing—leaped toward Adolin. The monster could command inanimate objects! Adolin sliced through the tarp and then jumped forward to swing for the assassin.
He found nothing to fight.
Duck.
He threw himself to the ground as something passed over his head, the assassin flying through the air. Szeth’s hissing Shardblade missed Adolin’s head by inches.
Adolin rolled and came to his knees, puffing.
How . . . What could he do . . . ?
You can't beat it, Adolin thought. Nothing can beat it." 

 

I'd advise reading more of the chapter around it for context but it seems to me that "Duck" could be the first time the blade speaks to him. His instinct to duck comes from nowhere and saves his life. He is immediately confused by how he knew to do so, but before he can think about it he is distracted. I think it's the kind of subtle foreshadowing Brandon uses all the time. To me at least it's fairly convincing evidence. Has anyone noticed this passage before? Sorry if this isn't formatted too well I'm having to type and copy from my phone right now. 

Edited July 6, 2017 by Kav
Easier to read

[Einadan]

I am starting to think that the blades have never been as dead as we are led to believe.  I think they have been held captive by the gems attached to them.  Also i feel that the blade has been leading adolin subconsciously down a path to becoming an edgedancer. This passage could just be Adolin understanding that he was out of his depth and wondering how he had the instinct.  Previously i feel he thought he was that much better than his opponent and didn't register the cues. 

[Krandacth]

3 hours ago, Kav said:

In regards to the theories about which order of Radiants Adolin will join (if any) I'm convinced he will become an Edgedancer after reviving his blade.

I just finished rereading WoR and while there's a few reasons I'm on board with this, the following scene in Ch.85 jumped out at me. 

 

“Adolin cursed and lunged for the assassin, but a fluttering tarp—brushed by the assassin in passing—leaped toward Adolin. The monster could command inanimate objects! Adolin sliced through the tarp and then jumped forward to swing for the assassin.
He found nothing to fight.
Duck.
He threw himself to the ground as something passed over his head, the assassin flying through the air. Szeth’s hissing Shardblade missed Adolin’s head by inches.
Adolin rolled and came to his knees, puffing.
How . . . What could he do . . . ?
You can't beat it, Adolin thought. Nothing can beat it." 

 

I'd advise reading more of the chapter around it for context but it seems to me that "Duck" could be the first time the blade speaks to him. His instinct to duck comes from nowhere and saves his life. He is immediately confused by how he knew to do so, but before he can think about it he is distracted. I think it's the kind of subtle foreshadowing Brandon uses all the time. To me at least it's fairly convincing evidence. Has anyone noticed this passage before? Sorry if this isn't formatted too well I'm having to type and copy from my phone right now. 

This scene has actually been discussed quite a lot, with people arguing both sides pretty strongly. While I can see your point (and actually believe that, if a blade is to be revived, it should be by Adolin), I actually read Duck as just his honed battle instincts responding instantly to having lost track of his adversary with evasive maneuvers. Though I do like and subscribe to your interpretation, it certainly isn't proof :-(

(There was another scene just before this that I found much more compelling, if only from a narrative perspective.  I'll find a link to the discussion and edit it in here at some point.)

I also read the "How... What could he do...?" as Adolin scrambling to try to find a way to fight back: How... could he win against Szeth? What could he do... to fight back? This interpretation is strengthened by the fact that the next line seems to be answering these half-formed questions before his brain can even finish thinking them, showing to the readers just how plain it is to Adolin that there is no hope of him winning. But hey, mine is just one interpretation :-) 

[StrikerEZ]

5 hours ago, Einadan said:

I am starting to think that the blades have never been as dead as we are led to believe.  I think they have been held captive by the gems attached to them.  Also i feel that the blade has been leading adolin subconsciously down a path to becoming an edgedancer. This passage could just be Adolin understanding that he was out of his depth and wondering how he had the instinct.  Previously i feel he thought he was that much better than his opponent and didn't register the cues. 

Well, they're as dead as a Spren can be, but they can be revived obviously. Also, they aren't being held captive in blade form by the gems. Navani herself say that the gems came after the shardblades were made. The reason they are stuck as shardblades is because they used to be bonded to Radiants pre-Recreance, then the Radiants broke their oaths, killing their spren and trapping them as Shardblades.

[gbazz4]

5 hours ago, Kav said:

In regards to the theories about which order of Radiants Adolin will join (if any) I'm convinced he will become an Edgedancer after reviving his blade.

I just finished rereading WoR and while there's a few reasons I'm on board with this, the following scene in Ch.85 jumped out at me. 

 

“Adolin cursed and lunged for the assassin, but a fluttering tarp—brushed by the assassin in passing—leaped toward Adolin. The monster could command inanimate objects! Adolin sliced through the tarp and then jumped forward to swing for the assassin.
He found nothing to fight.
Duck.
He threw himself to the ground as something passed over his head, the assassin flying through the air. Szeth’s hissing Shardblade missed Adolin’s head by inches.
Adolin rolled and came to his knees, puffing.
How . . . What could he do . . . ?
You can't beat it, Adolin thought. Nothing can beat it." 

 

I'd advise reading more of the chapter around it for context but it seems to me that "Duck" could be the first time the blade speaks to him. His instinct to duck comes from nowhere and saves his life. He is immediately confused by how he knew to do so, but before he can think about it he is distracted. I think it's the kind of subtle foreshadowing Brandon uses all the time. To me at least it's fairly convincing evidence. Has anyone noticed this passage before? Sorry if this isn't formatted too well I'm having to type and copy from my phone right now. 

 

2 hours ago, Krandacth said:

 I actually read Duck as just his honed battle instincts responding instantly to having lost track of his adversary with evasive maneuvers. Though I do like and subscribe to your interpretation, it certainly isn't proof :-(

I also read the "How... What could he do...?" as Adolin scrambling to try to find a way to fight back: How... could he win against Szeth? What could he do... to fight back? This interpretation is strengthened by the fact that the next line seems to be answering these half-formed questions before his brain can even finish thinking them, showing to the readers just how plain it is to Adolin that there is no hope of him winning. But hey, mine is just one interpretation :-) 

I interpreted the Duck similar to Krandacth. I always just thought it was battle instincts that kicked in when he didn't see his enemy he knew he had to get out of the way of a likely strike.

I read the "How...What could he do..?" a little differently. Mind i haven't read the whole scene in a while so my recollection could be off, but from memory i thought the question was more asking what Szeth could do? I think this is the 2nd time Adolin has faced him. So i think he is still trying to figure out what Szeth can do and so internally he is asking how Szeth wasn't there when he came through the tarp and what else could he do? My thought is he is asking this question so if he could figure it out maybe he could figure out a plan to fight Szeth. Then after thinking a second he kind of thinks nothing can beat Szeth.

[maxal]

14 hours ago, Kav said:

...

As others have pointed out, this has been discussed in the past. It comes across every once in a while and I would say while no firm consensus have been made, it is generally agreed the word duck wasn't Adolin's Blade speaking to him. Within the same text sequence, words in italic have been used to indicate Adolin's inner thoughts. There is no reason to believe they might mean his Blade is speaking to him. The evidence in favor has always gone two ways: Adolin had no way to know he had to duck, he couldn't see Szeth which makes the word duck sound like a warning and well many of us want it to be his Blade speaking to him 

I personally feel it merely was Adolin's instincts kicking in. Yes, it sounds a bit frazzled, slightly out of nowhere, disconnected, but Adolin is out of his depth out there. He just got trashed by both Szeth and Eshonai, he's tired by the war, he complains several times over his head hurts, so him not exactly being within the perfect mind frame isn't all surprising. I read the scene as disconnected events linked together by Adolin's desire to fight back, but unable to do so. The desperate fight of someone finding out he can't win, he can't beat his opponent.

That's why I have always preferred Adolin's fighting scenes over Kaladin: the odds, the desperation, knowing he might not win, cannot win.

[king of nowhere]

21 hours ago, Krandacth said:

 

(There was another scene just before this that I found much more compelling, if only from a narrative perspective.  I'll find a link to the discussion and edit it in here at some point.)

http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/56576-proof-that-adolin-has-already-partially-revived-his-sword/#comment-502999

here it is.

9 hours ago, maxal said:

That's why I have always preferred Adolin's fighting scenes over Kaladin: the odds, the desperation, knowing he might not win, cannot win.

i preferred adolin fighting scenes because kaladin is just so powerful, he borders to a boring invincible hero. adolin doesn't have any  wacky superpower, he has to earn it all.

[Toaster Retribution]

Adolins fight scenes are for the most part more interesting, although Kaladins final fight with Szeth is pretty cool as well. And the training fight with Rock, Sigzil and Lopen is neat too, mostly for the comedy. 

I wouldnt really say that Adolin got trashed by Eshonai though. He bested her, after all.

[maxal]

10 hours ago, king of nowhere said:

http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/56576-proof-that-adolin-has-already-partially-revived-his-sword/#comment-502999

I didn't go back and re-read what I responded at the time, but I would argue when he says "Thank you", he means Eshonai. 

Thank you for offering me a fair fight, a duel, something I can do because right now, I can't even bear to hold my Blade.

This has been a point made over and over again with Adolin over the course of the first two books: he dislikes carnage and butchery. He hates killing, he only does it because he thinks it serves a purpose: fixing his father from his bad mood since Gavilar died, making him go back to whom it was (it was so naive of Adolin to think that I find it nearly heartbreaking, as if you could erase pain and guilt and start anew). However, once he is forced to fight without the support of the Thrill, the unfairness of the fight, the fact he is killing poor people unable to defend themselves, the fact the singers are pretty much helpless puppets just turn his stomach over, makes him shake and drop his Blade.

I always use this example to explain how Adolin is reacting more strongly to Dalinar losing the Thrill. I typically use it as an argument to explain how Adolin is not like his father: with or without the Thrill, Dalinar was blood-thirsty and in search of a challenge. My personal thoughts are the Thrill amplifies what is already there: for Dalinar is made his desire to kill nearly unbearable, but for Adolin is just makes him more reckless and less thoughtful. Once it is gone, he truly sees what he is doing and he can't stomach it while Dalinar still can, but he keep asking himself why he is doing it.

10 hours ago, king of nowhere said:

i preferred adolin fighting scenes because kaladin is just so powerful, he borders to a boring invincible hero. adolin doesn't have any  wacky superpower, he has to earn it all.

Yeah that's what I thought to.

9 hours ago, Toaster Retribution said:

Adolins fight scenes are for the most part more interesting, although Kaladins final fight with Szeth is pretty cool as well. And the training fight with Rock, Sigzil and Lopen is neat too, mostly for the comedy. 

I wouldnt really say that Adolin got trashed by Eshonai though. He bested her, after all.

By trashed I meant his armor was half destroyed by Eshonai. I thought it was important to mention within what kind of physical shape Adolin is during those scenes: he watched his horse die, he was tired, he watch a helpless fight facing creatures straight from hell which he rescued by being smart, but it led him to slaughter defenseless people which shook him greatly. Then, he fought Eshonai, give it all he had left, he pushes her with his head and then he nearly fall only to stumble onto Szeth which does I have no idea what with him, but next time we see him, his Plate is nearly destroyed, he is gliding on the ground, half conscious and spends the remainder of the chapter complaining over how much his head hurts. 

A few minutes after the passage which was quoted, Dalinar is sent to die into the sky, Adolin makes his last tearful stance, got the wind knocked out of him, his wrist was broken and he remained on his knees until Dalinar came back to help him back up. Dalinar states Adolin looks worst for wear, bruised and dizzy, but he urges him forward to save his men. Shallan comments shortly after he looks like a mess.

I say, Adolin's entire state does have to be taken into consideration if we are to draft the right context for the scene. He was injured, tired and shaken: it might explain why his mental thoughts weren't very detailed.

[king of nowhere]

@maxal: we derail this thread. I linked to that old thread because someone referred to it. maybe if we want to continue that specific discussion we should go back to the other thread?

for my part, I will only say that times when one ddoes not think clearly are perfect to discover new powers. adolin does not stop to think that he is summoning his blade and it takes ten heartbeats, so he summons it faster without realizing it.

[maxal]

3 hours ago, king of nowhere said:

@maxal: we derail this thread. I linked to that old thread because someone referred to it. maybe if we want to continue that specific discussion we should go back to the other thread?

for my part, I will only say that times when one ddoes not think clearly are perfect to discover new powers. adolin does not stop to think that he is summoning his blade and it takes ten heartbeats, so he summons it faster without realizing it.

Threads derail all the time, I don't mind it so much. The other thread has gotten old, I don't even remember what I said in it 

While it is true nothing within the textual technically precludes Adolin from having inadvertently summoned hid Blade without the required 10 heartbeats, I think it remains highly unlikely. I find it entirely plausible Adolin did unconsciously summon his Blade (after all there are other instances of him sending the command without thinking about it), waited the 10 heartbeats without thinking about them. He has a nervous tic with his Blade, which means he constantly summons his Blade, whenever he is nervous and/or too emotive. Remember early in WoK when he faces Sades? Renarin touches him and urges him to calm down which is when Adolin realizes he had started summoning it. How many heartbeats had passed? We never knew, but he did summon his Blade and he did not pay attention to the 10 heartbeats.

This being said, I always thought, if Adolin does revive his Blade, one of the signs would be the Blade materializing faster than 10 heartbeats. I would however expect seeing it happening in a moment where Adolin does count and is aware something odd happened. If not, then we are just fishing.

[iamstick]

I'm waiting for Adolin to destroy the diagramatists next. Bring on the dust!

 

Quote

This being said, I always thought, if Adolin does revive his Blade, one of the signs would be the Blade materializing faster than 10 heartbeats.

I love this idea

Edited July 8, 2017 by iamstick
added quote

[Ceradis]

Since a lot of this has spiraled into topics concerning the consequences of his actions, I would like to bring up the fact that since Urithiru isn't in Alethkar it could be agrued that the highprinces have no right to judge or rule there.

[Calderis]

10 minutes ago, kalaxin said:

Since a lot of this has spiraled into topics concerning the consequences of his actions, I would like to bring up the fact that since Urithiru isn't in Alethkar it could be agrued that the highprinces have no right to judge or rule there.

True. But if Dalinar makes the argument that Urithiru should be separated as it was in the past, he better have made that argument before Adolin's actions come out. 

If not, a city held by the Alethi, and a murder committed between two high ranking Alethi nobles, will make it seem like a inept ploy on Dalinar's part and have a very poor outcome politically. 

There's also the fact that a murder was committed, and regardless of jurisdiction, they either in force some form of law, or embrace Chaos. 

[Ceradis]

35 minutes ago, Calderis said:

True. But if Dalinar makes the argument that Urithiru should be separated as it was in the past, he better have made that argument before Adolin's actions come out. 

If not, a city held by the Alethi, and a murder committed between two high ranking Alethi nobles, will make it seem like a inept ploy on Dalinar's part and have a very poor outcome politically. 

There's also the fact that a murder was committed, and regardless of jurisdiction, they either in force some form of law, or embrace Chaos. 

Completely agree, it was more so a point as to how the entire thing would actually play out when/if the murder comes out and Adolin is discovered. It could be that the Radiants rule the city; though unlikely, this kinda makes sense to me because they are the only way into and out of Urithiru. In a sense, the city belongs to them since they control access to it. They could feasibly argue their right to rule, and people wouldn't be able to deny it to them.

Again I do think that this would be unlikely as it might dredge up memories of the Lost Radiants and their corruption, but I do think it would change the consequences that Adolin would face.

[maxal]

On 7/17/2017 at 4:51 PM, kalaxin said:

Since a lot of this has spiraled into topics concerning the consequences of his actions, I would like to bring up the fact that since Urithiru isn't in Alethkar it could be agrued that the highprinces have no right to judge or rule there.

These thoughts have been made before. We had wondered if Adolin killing Sadeas in Urithiru and not in Alethkar would have an impact on his sentence. Is there a loophole which would make him exiled from Urithiru, but not Alethkar? Well, we do not know, but it certainly has been on the mind of many.

On 7/17/2017 at 5:48 PM, kalaxin said:

Again I do think that this would be unlikely as it might dredge up memories of the Lost Radiants and their corruption, but I do think it would change the consequences that Adolin would face.

Considering Radiants are mistrusted and hated across Roshar, I would think they cannot afford to go easy on Adolin, they can't afford to be seen not dispensing fair justice if they are to be viewed as moral honorable people. 

No matter how I shuffle it, I see little people not having within their best interest to go extraordinarily hard on Adolin. Everyone will have a reason to turn Adolin into an example.

[king of nowhere]

8 hours ago, maxal said:

No matter how I shuffle it, I see little people not having within their best interest to go extraordinarily hard on Adolin. Everyone will have a reason to turn Adolin into an example.

Alas, this. his allies will need to go hard to show they are not playing favourites, and his enemies will go hard on him because they are his enemies.

Considering how it went with amaram, I think exile is the most likely solution.

[maxal]

12 hours ago, king of nowhere said:

Alas, this. his allies will need to go hard to show they are not playing favourites, and his enemies will go hard on him because they are his enemies.

Considering how it went with amaram, I think exile is the most likely solution.

The only individual which may take Adolin's side and wish to protect him is Navani: only she would sacrifice the political end game for one of the family's children, only she would breach conventions to protect him, only she would not care what other people are doing. If she sees Adolin as one of her chicks (and I think she does), she will protect him. Unfortunately, her influence might not be strong enough to tide in the wave. 

Shallan could potentially side with Adolin, but she could also oppose him. She wouldn't about what is honorable or how it is seen: if she truly likes Adolin, she might craft him a defense.

I have no idea if Renarin would support Adolin or his father, but either way, he has little influence.

Everyone else is likely to want Adolin's punishment to be harsh. He might get officially exiled, but he may never make it to being exiled because of "events". 

This being said, I would die to read a father/son moment where Dalinar actually forgives Adolin, accepts his son is not him and admits he actually loves him.

 

[Calderis]

@maxal I agree Navani will side with him, but I don't think she'll be alone. 

I think if Kaladin is there he will stand by him. 

I also think there is nothing in Roshar that's going to keep Renarin from standing by his brother. 

[king of nowhere]

I think shallan will try to help him, but only within the limits of the law. She'd rather lose adolin that spark a civil war among the alethi. heck, I think adolin himself will want to be judged according to the law if caught; the adolin I know would not put his well being in front of alethkar's unity. they could also invoke some sort of "our finest warrior in our hour of need" clause, where they agree to condemn adolin, but only after the desolation is ended. Sort of like galad's judgment of perrin in the wheel of time. There are just so many ways this could turn out.

then maybe brandon will surprise us all and have adolin just never be discovered.

[maxal]

2 hours ago, Calderis said:

@maxal I agree Navani will side with him, but I don't think she'll be alone. 

I think if Kaladin is there he will stand by him. 

I also think there is nothing in Roshar that's going to keep Renarin from standing by his brother. 

I agree about Kaladin. I did not mention him because my thoughts are he is likely to be away when the Sadeas's murder is being dealt with. One potential story arc I had was Adolin either running away or being exiled only to be trailed by grumpy Kaladin frustrated he had to hike up half the world in order to "protect him". Thought the potential of Adolin living his down moment with Kaladin  was gigantic 

Renarin is a wild card. I say it depends how their brother to brother relationship evolves now he is a Radiant. I do think a rift is possible. I do think Adolin will explode at some point and ruin most of his relationships including the one with his brother.

1 hour ago, king of nowhere said:

I think shallan will try to help him, but only within the limits of the law. She'd rather lose adolin that spark a civil war among the alethi. heck, I think adolin himself will want to be judged according to the law if caught; the adolin I know would not put his well being in front of alethkar's unity. they could also invoke some sort of "our finest warrior in our hour of need" clause, where they agree to condemn adolin, but only after the desolation is ended. Sort of like galad's judgment of perrin in the wheel of time. There are just so many ways this could turn out.

then maybe brandon will surprise us all and have adolin just never be discovered.

I agree Adolin would want to be trialed and punished according to the law. He would not want to be made an exception and he might demand the harshest of punishment. It will be up to his allies to craft him a better defense, but I worry he may not have enough of them.

Adolin is getting discovered, it would be terribly anti-climatic if he weren't. 

[Guest]

6 hours ago, maxal said:

Shallan could potentially side with Adolin, but she could also oppose him. She wouldn't about what is honorable or how it is seen: if she truly likes Adolin, she might craft him a defense.

I think, that Shallan would side with him, but I also think, that Adolin would refuse her support, because he wants to shelter her from the political fallout. This in turn might irritate Shallan and strain their relationship. Might even lead to the break up of their causal. Adolin trying to shelter Shallan. The more I think of it, the more I could see it happening, actually.

4 hours ago, maxal said:

Renarin is a wild card. I say it depends how their brother to brother relationship evolves now he is a Radiant. I do think a rift is possible. I do think Adolin will explode at some point and ruin most of his relationships including the one with his brother.

I can most definitely see that happening.

And I also agree about Kaladin. Hell, he might even return to Urithiru right about the time, when Adolin is about to be exiled or otherwise punished and actually speak in favor of him. To protect him. I mean his oaths don't just include protection from physical harm, I think.

Edited July 20, 2017 by SLNC

[the winter system]

I'm pretty sure I'm an Edgedancer and I say no, it wasn't right or moral, or even necessary. He didn't do it to prevent Sadeas from harming anyone else. He didn't do it to protect or as justice for the people he's killed/gotten killed. He did it because Sadeas was acting like an arrogant jerk, he did it for revenge. JUST1C3 and revenge are too similar to tell apart without being in the head of the person, but we were. He just snapped, and then he hid the evidence. If it was about JUST1C3, shouldn't he have revealed the fact, along with his motivation? There's no honor in what Adolin did-- killing someone in a corridor because he was angry? No court would've convicted Sadeas, yes, but there's got to be another way. (Is a filthy Homestuck therefor I spell justice with a 1 and 3. This Reminds me a bit of Vriska, except Sadeas probably deserved it more and Terezi had a better reason.)

Edit: actually, to better put this in Homestuck terms. I think Sadeas's death would've been considered Just, but Adolin's actions not Heroic.

Edited July 20, 2017 by winter devotion

[king of nowhere]

6 hours ago, SLNC said:

And I also agree about Kaladin. Hell, he might even return to Urithiru right about the time, when Adolin is about to be exiled or otherwise punished and actually speak in favor of him. To protect him. I mean his oaths don't just include protection from physical harm, I think.

I can see the scene where adolin is under trial and going to be condemned and kaladin storms into the room and gives a big speech on how bad sadeas was and how adolin was fair to him even though he disliked kaladin, and somehow sway the court. That would be another potential great scene.