The morality of Adolin's actions

[maxal]

20 hours ago, SLNC said:

I think, that Shallan would side with him, but I also think, that Adolin would refuse her support, because he wants to shelter her from the political fallout. This in turn might irritate Shallan and strain their relationship. Might even lead to the break up of their causal. Adolin trying to shelter Shallan. The more I think of it, the more I could see it happening, actually.

I agree with you here. My perspective on Adolin's character is he would rather die alone and frightened then have his actions cause harm to anyone he actually cares for. Already, he is asking himself if he is worthy of Shallan. We know not feeling he is "good enough" for relationship is the one reason he keeps running away from them. It thus seems incredibly plausible he would run away from this relationship as well, especially considering what he has done. I do agree the last thing Adolin would want is to draw Shallan into his mess nor to doom her to marry a disowned prince with little to bring to the table (in his own perspective).

I wouldn't necessarily refer to it as "protectiveness", but I do agree Adolin wouldn't want anyone to take the plunge for him be it Shallan or anyone else.

20 hours ago, SLNC said:

And I also agree about Kaladin. Hell, he might even return to Urithiru right about the time, when Adolin is about to be exiled or otherwise punished and actually speak in favor of him. To protect him. I mean his oaths don't just include protection from physical harm, I think.

I love this idea. I have been advocating how I feel Kaladin's character has been utilized in a predictable way within the story so far. I thus feel this potential story arc is exactly what is needed to steer him away from re-enacting the climaxes of the first two books. Kaladin protecting with his words as opposed to with his powers would definitely form a story arc I would enjoy reading.

14 hours ago, king of nowhere said:

I can see the scene where adolin is under trial and going to be condemned and kaladin storms into the room and gives a big speech on how bad sadeas was and how adolin was fair to him even though he disliked kaladin, and somehow sway the court. That would be another potential great scene.

I agree. Adolin is the only man who would stood up for Kaladin when no one else would. He is the only one who believed him without asking for tangible proof. 

Now I want Kaladin to return the favor, to stood up for Adolin when everybody is ready to kick him away. When chull hits the fan and Adolin finds himself alone hitting rock bottom, I want Kaladin to be the one to give him a hand, because Adolin once did the same.

[+Extesian]

11 minutes ago, maxal said:

Now I want Kaladin to return the favor, to stood up for Adolin when everybody is ready to kick him away. When chull hits the fan and Adolin finds himself alone hitting rock bottom, I want Kaladin to be the one to give him a hand, because Adolin once did the same.

I'd say the debt is paid, Kaladin did fight three Shardbearers with his bare hands to save Adolin but i really like this thinking too, them protecting each other in WoR was one of the most beautiful parts of the book. I'd love to see them as friends or, even better, two dudes Wii really don't match well but are steadfast and loyal to each other because ou'd their mutual values of protecting people with absolutely no fear for their own lives. 

[maxal]

Just now, Extesian said:

I'd say the debt is paid, Kaladin did fight three Shardbearers with his bare hands to save Adolin but i really like this thinking too, them protecting each other in WoR was one of the most beautiful parts of the book. I'd love to see them as friends or, even better, two dudes Wii really don't match well but are steadfast and loyal to each other because ou'd their mutual values of protecting people with absolutely no fear for their own lives. 

Adolin repaid Kaladin for fighting for him by staying in prison on his behalf and offering him Shards. Him actually believing Kaladin's tale, without doubting, without needing to make inquiries, was a mark of trust more powerful and more meaningful to Kaladin than all the Shards in the world grouped together.

I think it is this favor Kaladin ought to pay back and, well, I do think he will because huh, that's Kaladin.

[+Extesian]

2 minutes ago, maxal said:

Adolin repaid Kaladin for fighting for him by staying in prison on his behalf and offering him Shards. Him actually believing Kaladin's tale, without doubting, without needing to make inquiries, was a mark of trust more powerful and more meaningful to Kaladin than all the Shards in the world grouped together.

I think it is this favor Kaladin ought to pay back and, well, I do think he will because huh, that's Kaladin.

Great point maxal, faith can be even more powerful than actions

[maxal]

2 minutes ago, Extesian said:

Great point maxal, faith can be even more powerful than actions

Especially since Adolin actually gave Kaladin the one thing he has been denied all his life: respect. He treated him as an equal, he listened to his tale without taking for granted he was lying.

He listened.

And to Kaladin, I think this was priceless, even if he needed to fall into a chasm to realize it.

[Fatling]

So to me killing Sadeas was a mistake. Interestingly, I think Adolin believes it was a mistake, because what does he do after he kills Sadeas? He hides the evidence and pretends like it didn't happen. If he really believed that what he had done was right, he should have owned it. Hiding leads to shame, shame leads to blame, blame leads to hate, hate leads to the dark side. Just imagine I said that in a Yoda voice. But anyway, I think that if Adolin doesn't own his actions, he's making an even worse mistake than that of murdering Sadeas, because by doing so he's killing someome much better than Sadeas- himself. Brandon is good about making his characters dynamic, not static, so even if Adolin has done good things in the past (and he has), that won't prevent this mistake from consuming him if he can't move on (and from what I've seen of Adolin there might be hope for him to move on. If it were Kaladin, maybe not so much)

[maxal]

On 7/20/2017 at 11:47 PM, Fatling said:

So to me killing Sadeas was a mistake. Interestingly, I think Adolin believes it was a mistake, because what does he do after he kills Sadeas? He hides the evidence and pretends like it didn't happen. If he really believed that what he had done was right, he should have owned it. Hiding leads to shame, shame leads to blame, blame leads to hate, hate leads to the dark side. Just imagine I said that in a Yoda voice. But anyway, I think that if Adolin doesn't own his actions, he's making an even worse mistake than that of murdering Sadeas, because by doing so he's killing someome much better than Sadeas- himself. Brandon is good about making his characters dynamic, not static, so even if Adolin has done good things in the past (and he has), that won't prevent this mistake from consuming him if he can't move on (and from what I've seen of Adolin there might be hope for him to move on. If it were Kaladin, maybe not so much)

A mistake is not a word I would use to refer to it. According to Alethi law, murdering a Highprince is one of the most serious offense punishable by either death or exile. We might argue as to whether or not it was "morally right" to kill the man having professed high treason and having the means to pursue those goals, we might argue as to whether or not it was "honorable" to jump on a man without having taken the time to make a formal demand in duel, but we cannot argue as to whether or not it was legal, because it wasn't.

Thus, Adolin hiding the clues is not him "covering it up" and "refusing to own it". Own what? He has just killed one of the most important man within his society. In the name of what should he merely hand himself over to justice? Honor? Come one... He won't just be thrown into prison: he will be executed or, if he is lucky exiled, but being a Shardbearer, execution seems more likely. Might as well slit his own wrists right and and now because "owning it" as many wish he had (because it would have made him sound so much more honorable) is the equivalent of giving himself a death sentence. For what? For Torol Sadeas? Adolin ought to die for this crem?

This being said, I never took it hard on Adolin for hiding the clues. He is half-traumatized when he does it, he is in shock: he just committed one of the worst crime a man can commit within his world. He didn't kill him while being in complete control of himself: this was not cold-blooded murder. Adolin snapped and speaks of a daze within his head: he lost control of himself, his instincts took over. Push a man too hard, increase his anxiety level too high and he might just snap, completely. Adolin was in a situation where he could not mentally and physically deal with more and when a brick load of more was dropped on him, he just couldn't take it anymore.

Bottom line is I think it is rather sad: truth is Adolin cracked under the pressure. I really hope someone will realize Adolin needs room to vent and he can't be kept on being shove from one side to the check board to the other side of it upon the whims of his father without never ever being given time to process. He is a classic case of "too much pressure", "not enough time to process", "too much too soon".

[Fatling]

 

3 hours ago, maxal said:

A mistake is not a word I would use to refer to it. According to Alethi law, murdering a Highprince is one of the most serious offense punishable by either death or exile. We might argue as to whether or not it was "morally right" to kill the man having professed high treason and having the means to pursue those goals, we might argue as to whether or not it was "honorable" to jump on a man without having taken the time to make a formal demand in duel, but we cannot argue as to whether or not it was legal, because it wasn't.

Thus, Adolin hiding the clues is not him "covering it up" and "refusing to own it". Own what? He has just killed one of the most important man within his society. In the name of what should he merely hand himself over to justice? Honor? Come one... He won't just be thrown into prison: he will be executed or, if he is lucky exiled, but being a Shardbearer, execution seems more likely. Might as well slit his own wrists right and and now because "owning it" as many wish he had (because it would have made him sound so much more honorable) is the equivalent of giving himself a death sentence. For what? For Torol Sadeas? Adolin ought to die for this crem?

This being said, I never took it hard on Adolin for hiding the clues. He is half-traumatized when he does it, he is in shock: he just committed one of the worst crime a man can commit within his world. He didn't kill him while being in complete control of himself: this was not cold-blooded murder. Adolin snapped and speaks of a daze within his head: he lost control of himself, his instincts took over. Push a man too hard, increase his anxiety level too high and he might just snap, completely. Adolin was in a situation where he could not mentally and physically deal with more and when a brick load of more was dropped on him, he just couldn't take it anymore.

Bottom line is I think it is rather sad: truth is Adolin cracked under the pressure. I really hope someone will realize Adolin needs room to vent and he can't be kept on being shove from one side to the check board to the other side of it upon the whims of his father without never ever being given time to process. He is a classic case of "too much pressure", "not enough time to process", "too much too soon".

I will concede that the word mistake could be viewed as a gross understatement- in fact I will concede that it is a gross understatement to avoid a battle of semantics. In my prior post I explored the undesirable consequences of what would happen if Adolin carries on in a "business as usual" sort of way. It would consume him. In your post you explored the undesirable consequences of his confessing, or owning the problem.

I guess to me the question of Adolin's morality really comes down to a question of "what will he do next?" And the moral argument is "what should Adolin do?" He could continue to pretend he has nothing to do with Sadeas' murder and try to justify his actions to himself (which would end poorly in the long run, I think we can agree). He could confess his actions and suffer whatever penalty the law inflicts upon him, which would most likely be execution. Both of these kind of leave a bad taste in my mouth. You're right that there isn't much honor in dying because of Sadeas.

We could propose any number of fantastic alternative solutions that would fall between these two, a sort of compromise. Something where he wouldn't have to endure a lengthy and political trial that would kill many of the readers before he met his demise. Something where he could show himself that he is no longer the same man as the one that killed Sadeas, so he can leave that behind him. I'll leave it up to Brandon to come up with something clever, but I feel like it has to be something like that.

On the matter of Adolin cracking under pressure, you're totally right. He's in a situation where there's too much being asked of him and really nothing to show for his efforts. He needs a situation where it is rewarding to do hard things, and right now it isn't very rewarding. I think that's why he allowed himself to kill Sadeas, because there had been this question in his head of "does it matter what I do?" and by killing Sadeas he was doing something that made a difference. I mean, he wasn't thinking that while he killed him, but that was kind of the thought process that led to this situation. 

[WhiteLeeopard]

The problem of giving himself up or confessing, or other ideas along this lines because it is "the honorable thing to do" is always the same. Alethi society is not honorable, is not fair, and is not just. Acting with honor when no-one else does, doesn't mean you set an example for others, it just means you get trampled, the honorable people die, and just the filth is left (this was basically a big part of what the whole Dalinar-Adolin storyline in WoK was about). 

I think Adolin needs to let the truth off his chest, but that doesn't mean he should give himself over for Sadeas. Trusting Renarin, Shallan, and Kaladin when he returns for moral support would cover this quite nicely. And they could tell him their opinions on the matter, which would reinforce keeping it relatively silent. After all Renarin would likely support his brother no matter what, Shallan would be quite fine with it, and Kaladin might have sworn his oaths but that doesn't mean he hates Sadeas any less, and he still firmly believes he escaped justice. After all, I would be hard pressed to see how Kaladin would see protecting Sadeas as "right", which is what his last oath comes down to. 

[Calderis]

14 minutes ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

The problem of giving himself up or confessing, or other ideas along this lines because it is "the honorable thing to do" is always the same. Alethi society is not honorable, is not fair, and is not just. Acting with honor when no-one else does, doesn't mean you set an example for others, it just means you get trampled, the honorable people die, and just the filth is left (this was basically a big part of what the whole Dalinar-Adolin storyline in WoK was about). 

Exactly. This was the conclusion to Dalinar's story arc in tWoK. Acting with honor and expecting others to do so in return in spite of evidence to the contrary lead to the betrayal at the tower. 

Expecting Adolin to repeat those mistakes "because it's the honorable path" is ignoring the story so far. 

Dalinar, the one half of everyone says is the most honorable, figured this out too late. It was Adolin pointing this out to him from the beginning. Why would Adolin suddenly flip 180 and commit the same mistakes he saw his father make? 

In an unjust society, you can't follow the law and expect justice. 

I will continue to defend Adolin's actions. He killed a man who was above legal punishment, who was openly threatening to undermine the Kingdom, and kill members of Adolin's family, and people who he is sworn to protect as a Kholin prince, while knowing Sadeas has the means to carry out those threats. 

Not acting at that point is permitting someone to attack, and hoping you can block in time. In a fight, and this is perfectly analogous to a physical battle. If an opponent is coming towards you in a threatening manner, when they have already shown intent to kill, and you see an opening, you strike. You don't just sit and defend and hope they get tired. 

Edited July 22, 2017 by Calderis

[maxal]

On 7/22/2017 at 1:15 PM, Fatling said:

I will concede that the word mistake could be viewed as a gross understatement- in fact I will concede that it is a gross understatement to avoid a battle of semantics. In my prior post I explored the undesirable consequences of what would happen if Adolin carries on in a "business as usual" sort of way. It would consume him. In your post you explored the undesirable consequences of his confessing, or owning the problem.

I agree arguing over the semantic would be rather pointless, as long as we each understand the point we are both trying to raise. I do agree keeping it all to himself isn't really an option as Adolin isn't secretive nor would he be able to keep something so important to himself without feeling so much guilt it would consume him. My post did mean to highlight how terrible "owning it" would have been. As much as many readers love to hand it over Adolin's head as a sign of his impending descend into evil deeds, I do think covering the clues was the best short term decision, it is the one which allows him time to think, to process as opposed to rush into, perhaps more honorable, but incredibly damaging confession. Mind, I absolutely do not think Adolin did it for those reasons: I don't think he... thought at all. My reading of the scenes is Adolin is acting by impulse: none of this actions were planned nor reflected, including hiding the clues, but his reaction might be the one to save his life.

On 7/22/2017 at 1:15 PM, Fatling said:

I guess to me the question of Adolin's morality really comes down to a question of "what will he do next?" And the moral argument is "what should Adolin do?" He could continue to pretend he has nothing to do with Sadeas' murder and try to justify his actions to himself (which would end poorly in the long run, I think we can agree). He could confess his actions and suffer whatever penalty the law inflicts upon him, which would most likely be execution. Both of these kind of leave a bad taste in my mouth. You're right that there isn't much honor in dying because of Sadeas.

We could propose any number of fantastic alternative solutions that would fall between these two, a sort of compromise. Something where he wouldn't have to endure a lengthy and political trial that would kill many of the readers before he met his demise. Something where he could show himself that he is no longer the same man as the one that killed Sadeas, so he can leave that behind him. I'll leave it up to Brandon to come up with something clever, but I feel like it has to be something like that.

What should Adolin do is a question I fear 10 different readers would answer in 10 different ways. Most would however argue to retain was if left of his honor, Adolin ought to confess immediately while I think he ought to think about what to do next. Obviously, he will need to confess, but he ought to have a plan before he does. Sadly, Adolin being a very emotional individual currently crumbling under the pressure under an authoritative father whom never allowed him the possibility to make mistakes, I think he is likely to burst out at the worst possible moment. Adolin can be... explosive, impulsive, strong-headed and downright irrational. It is thus I think it is either Adolin will quickly confess, say if someone is accused, or he will keep it quiet, try to stay strong, but will only become more and more unstable as his idea of strong whenever stressed out if to work himself out to exhaustion. In shorts, we saw how Adolin dealt with high stressed situations where he feels he is powerless within the aftermath of Szeth's first encounter. I thus definitely think there could be an arc where he does just that: he overworks himself, never rests enough, take weird roots to compensate for his lack of sleep (too much of them perhaps?), work harder, try to be even more perfect up until he just collapses, breaks down and just... explodes. Then, the truth comes out. 

I could see it going either way, but the least people know the truth, the more chances he has to get away with it as keeping the story quiet will give time for Navani to figure out how to pull him out of it without damaging the family.

The second option absolutely does not require lengthy political procedure which we are all going to agree would be boring to read. Knowing Adolin, I do think this arc will be wrapped up rather harshly for him just as I do think "over-working root chewing" Adolin is a real possibility. It fits with how the character has behaved so far and up until he goes through an arc where he starts to assess this side of him, I don't expect it to go away this easily.

On 7/22/2017 at 1:15 PM, Fatling said:

On the matter of Adolin cracking under pressure, you're totally right. He's in a situation where there's too much being asked of him and really nothing to show for his efforts. He needs a situation where it is rewarding to do hard things, and right now it isn't very rewarding. I think that's why he allowed himself to kill Sadeas, because there had been this question in his head of "does it matter what I do?" and by killing Sadeas he was doing something that made a difference. I mean, he wasn't thinking that while he killed him, but that was kind of the thought process that led to this situation. 

Yeah... Dalinar asked everything out of Adolin, which he gladly gave, but he never got anything back in exchange. Regular soldiers can hope for promotions: Kaladin can hope for being entrusted with more, being listened more and being given even more freedom. What can Adolin expect? Nothing. The credit for everything he does usually goes to Dalinar (or to Kaladin), the credit which goes to him is usually meaningless such as him being named the "king'd champion", which was his personal dream, but became sour as he decided to locked himself up in prison. The worst to me is there is one thing Dalinar could give Adolin, but has steadily refused him: love, respect (he respects more Kaladin and his elites then he does Adolin whom he needs to be brow-beaten to even listen), consideration/attention and some free time. Real free time. Unfortunately, Dalinar isn't going to do it because Adolin did not earn his respect (he never did anything Dalinar thought was impressive enough to win it, unlike Kaladin) and he can't love him as much as he loves Elhokar/Renarin because there is no guilt when it comes to Adolin, just responsibilities and the need to have the perfect heir.

This being said, it is interesting to say Adolin lakcing recognition (which I do agree with) might have been a weighting factor in his decision to murder Sadeas. I have always read Adolin as someone focusing on what he can do, never what he cannot do, even if what he can do appears small. I do think the pressure slowly built on him in a way he never really noticed: it all started when he decided he had to be strong for his family, to be the strength which hides their weaknesses, to die so they can live, to jump towards the destination just so they could have a chance at making their journey. In shorts, it may be Adolin has been sacrificing his own self (albeit unconsciously) just so his close family members could become Radiants. So while I am unsure if Adolin did think murdering Sadeas was making his actions useful or more meaningful, but I do think it fits with him taking the fall for his family.

On 7/22/2017 at 1:45 PM, WhiteLeeopard said:

The problem of giving himself up or confessing, or other ideas along this lines because it is "the honorable thing to do" is always the same. Alethi society is not honorable, is not fair, and is not just. Acting with honor when no-one else does, doesn't mean you set an example for others, it just means you get trampled, the honorable people die, and just the filth is left (this was basically a big part of what the whole Dalinar-Adolin storyline in WoK was about). 

I think Adolin needs to let the truth off his chest, but that doesn't mean he should give himself over for Sadeas. Trusting Renarin, Shallan, and Kaladin when he returns for moral support would cover this quite nicely. And they could tell him their opinions on the matter, which would reinforce keeping it relatively silent. After all Renarin would likely support his brother no matter what, Shallan would be quite fine with it, and Kaladin might have sworn his oaths but that doesn't mean he hates Sadeas any less, and he still firmly believes he escaped justice. After all, I would be hard pressed to see how Kaladin would see protecting Sadeas as "right", which is what his last oath comes down to. 

I would argue it also is Kaladin's story arc.. Why did Amram's betrayal hurt so badly? Because Kaladin thought he would be honorable, he trusted he would be, he expected the lighteyes to be as honorable as him: he was wrong.  That hurt.

One of my dissatisfaction about the tower story arc is we never get the sense Dalinar made a mistake (which I do think he did) out of thinking others would play be his rules. It was presented as a decision he had to make, for better or for worst, while I persist in thinking his "blind-sighted honor" is what got his men killed. 

I do agree Adolin will need to speak to...someone. I honestly have no idea whom he'll tell first: a rational can be made for several choices thought I wouldn't say Renarin nor Shallan's support should be taken for granted. 

On 7/22/2017 at 1:59 PM, Calderis said:

Exactly. This was the conclusion to Dalinar's story arc in tWoK. Acting with honor and expecting others to do so in return in spite of evidence to the contrary lead to the betrayal at the tower. 

Expecting Adolin to repeat those mistakes "because it's the honorable path" is ignoring the story so far. 

Dalinar, the one half of everyone says is the most honorable, figured this out too late. It was Adolin pointing this out to him from the beginning. Why would Adolin suddenly flip 180 and commit the same mistakes he saw his father make? 

In an unjust society, you can't follow the law and expect justice. 

I will continue to defend Adolin's actions. He killed a man who was above legal punishment, who was openly threatening to undermine the Kingdom, and kill members of Adolin's family, and people who he is sworn to protect as a Kholin prince, while knowing Sadeas has the means to carry out those threats. 

Not acting at that point is permitting someone to attack, and hoping you can block in time. In a fight, and this is perfectly analogous to a physical battle. If an opponent is coming towards you in a threatening manner, when they have already shown intent to kill, and you see an opening, you strike. You don't just sit and defend and hope they get tired. 

I think being honorable is being overstated by many readers: we saw how being too honorable causes more death and tragedies then being more level-headed. Szeth and Dalinar might be honorable, but we can't say their actions were always spectacular, to say the least.

I love the fact Adolin isn't this purely white honorable to the death character: it makes him so much more interesting as it gives him the opportunity to decide based on what he thinks is right, not based on what an old book says is right. I find it very appealing into a character.

Also, Sadeas sworn he would kill the King, not just a Highprince... In the storm cellar, he professed his intentions of slaying Elhokar's throat. This is high treason and just this ought to get him convicted but you are right: Sadeas is above the law and it will always be Adolin's (a boy everyone underestimates, dismisses and thinks is nothing more than a foolish impulsive too emotive kid within a society where showing emotions is shunned upon) words against Sadeas's (a man everyone respects which does embody the Alethi ideals).

[Calderis]

@maxal yeah. I agree. I wasn't even trying to bring Honor into it. I'm just sick of the "vigilante justice is wrong" argument.

In a society with a proper legal system, where the law can be applied to everyone if you have evidence, sure. Find the evidence and go through proper channels. 

Alethkar is not that system. The idea that killing Sadeas was wrong, simply because it was in a secluded place and no one saw it, doesn't make it any different than if he'd been out in the open in full view. 

The system is going to say what Adolin did was wrong, regardless of what Sadeas said or did. It doesn't matter how justified or right Adolin was. Sadeas could have attacked him and the situation, from the Alethi legal perspective, would be no different. Sadeas died by Adolin's hand with no one the wiser. It's his weird (or lack thereof) against whoever decides to speak on Sadeas' behalf (most likely Ialai). 

There's no way for this to end well in the open. And as far as the Alethi are concerned, there were no witnesses and he left room for deniability. It's arguably a very Alethi solution to the Sadeas problem. 

It may not be the "right way" that people want by projecting our societies morals onto the situation, but it was both necessary due to the facts of the situation, and acceptable by Alethi standards of "we can guess what happened, but no one really knows so we'll all just look the other way." 

I'm just... The idea that Morality is this concrete, never changing ideal makes no sense to me. The moment you try to force anything into black and white terms a situation will arise that shows it's not that simple. It just doesn't work that way. 

[king of nowhere]

37 minutes ago, maxal said:

One of my dissatisfaction about the tower story arc is we never get the sense Dalinar made a mistake (which I do think he did) out of thinking others would play be his rules. It was presented as a decision he had to make, for better or for worst, while I persist in thinking his "blind-sighted honor" is what got his men killed.

Well, he did blame himself at some point. he had that conversation with adolin, where he was telling adolin something like "say it! say it's my fault" and adolin replied no, it's sadeas' fault, or something like that, and it was a good dialogue. and later dalinar muses that he would never put himself in a position like the tower again. and at another point dalinar wonders why he forced his sons to upheld the codes but did not try to force the highprinces. So, as tactical mistakes go, it was fully acknowledged.

It also goes to show how dalinar treats his son more like a soldier. that's the curse of reliable people: others rely on them, and they put more and more stuff on their shoulders until they collapse.

[gbazz4]

1 hour ago, Calderis said:

In a society with a proper legal system, where the law can be applied to everyone if you have evidence, sure. Find the evidence and go through proper channels. 

Alethkar is not that system. 

And as far as the Alethi are concerned, there were no witnesses and he left room for deniability. It's arguably a very Alethi solution to the Sadeas problem. 

It may not be the "right way" that people want by projecting our societies morals onto the situation, but it was both necessary due to the facts of the situation, and acceptable by Alethi standards of "we can guess what happened, but no one really knows so we'll all just look the other way." 

The more i think about this i think there is a really interesting point being made by @Calderis. In one of the books i think i recall them mentioning that in Alethi society assassination is ok as long as it can't be traced back to you. So in Adolin's situation by cleaning up the scene and hiding the evidence there is a chance this doesn't become the huge issue we expect it to because it might not be that huge for other Alethi. We might just be attaching more of our real world justice philosophy to this situation than we should. If assassination is acceptable (assuming i remembered that right) then really there is no difference in Adolin killing Sadeas than a hired assassin so long as he doesn't get caught. If Sadeas' group find evidence and can tie it to Adolin then we might have the problem we all are envisioning (i don't remember the scene enough to even think if there was any special detail that could be used to tie Adolin to the crime. Did Sadeas' guards see Adolin? If it is just blood and a knife wound how do they narrow it down to specifically Adolin?). In any event this will be interesting to see how it plays out.

Edited July 24, 2017 by gbazz4

[maxal]

2 hours ago, Calderis said:

@maxal yeah. I agree. I wasn't even trying to bring Honor into it. I'm just sick of the "vigilante justice is wrong" argument.

What bothers me most is the same argument is used in two different flavors: on one side it used to negatively prosecute Adolin, stating he ought to become evil or join forced with Odium, but on the other side it is completely ignored when it comes to Jasnah because the thieves physically attacked first. The fact most readers vehemently defend Jasnah, guilty of slaughtering running men whom were criminals, but much less so than Sadeas (and more importantly criminals we can hope could have been dealt with through the legal system), while severily condemning Adolin, guilty of removing a mass murderer, a traitor to the crown and a threat to the life of thousand of people is seriously baffling. I have come to accept Jasnah being a Radiant makes her somewhat "superior" within several readers mind while Adolin having been "rejected by all sprens" makes him "inferior". 

While it is true Adolin jumped on a man and killed him outside the legal system, the man he killed combined with his speech ought to make it, at least, equal to Jasnah slaying running small time criminals.

2 hours ago, Calderis said:

The system is going to say what Adolin did was wrong, regardless of what Sadeas said or did. It doesn't matter how justified or right Adolin was. Sadeas could have attacked him and the situation, from the Alethi legal perspective, would be no different. Sadeas died by Adolin's hand with no one the wiser. It's his weird (or lack thereof) against whoever decides to speak on Sadeas' behalf (most likely Ialai). 

What makes it even more nebulous is Adolin is not allowed to legally demand Sadeas in duel (he had to trick him) because Sadeas ranks higher than him, but the reverse is not true. Alethi legal system is such people like Sadeas will always have an easy way out while lower born do not. We knew it from watching Kaladin's unfair struggle, but Brandon raised to an other level by having young prince Adolin being put in a situation where he won't escape it either. 

3 hours ago, Calderis said:

I'm just... The idea that Morality is this concrete, never changing ideal makes no sense to me. The moment you try to force anything into black and white terms a situation will arise that shows it's not that simple. It just doesn't work that way. 

This is true and it does highlight why I prefer Adolin to characters such as Dalinar and Kaladin. Adolin, I feel, is able to adjust his moral in order to do what he thinks is right in any given situation without encumbering himself with rigid personal codes. I find Adolin's way is much harder as it demands he evaluates each situations independently without relying on a code to tell him what to do and what not to do. Often, the cost of action falls onto him and only him.

2 hours ago, king of nowhere said:

Well, he did blame himself at some point. he had that conversation with adolin, where he was telling adolin something like "say it! say it's my fault" and adolin replied no, it's sadeas' fault, or something like that, and it was a good dialogue. and later dalinar muses that he would never put himself in a position like the tower again. and at another point dalinar wonders why he forced his sons to upheld the codes but did not try to force the highprinces. So, as tactical mistakes go, it was fully acknowledged.

It also goes to show how dalinar treats his son more like a soldier. that's the curse of reliable people: others rely on them, and they put more and more stuff on their shoulders until they collapse.

True about Dalinar blaming himself, but within the fandom, very few people are willing to give part of the blame to Dalinar and his stubbornness into blindly following visions he believed he understood. Even Adolin, ah... Adolin worships his father: he has a hard time saying he was wrong as once he decided to follow his father's lead, he will not back down and say it was a dumb plan, even if it was. Personally, I always have had a problem with Dalinar's code: I find it restrictive and rigid. I would never agree to it, not without compromises. Had they really, really been to war they would have made sense, but Dalinar's mistake was thinking the Vengeance Pact truly was... a war as within wars he has fought before. He might have more success with the Desolation where his codes are likely to be needed.

Indeed, Dalinar treats Adolin like a soldier, which isn't wrong as Adolin is a soldier, but he's also his son. I have always worry over Dalinar never seeing the son into the soldier, always seeing the reliable, sturdy resource whom is Adolin, always taking him for granted, never bothering to think if it might not be too much. If he were just a soldier, then Adolin might be able to separate his personal life from his professional life, but his commanding officer is his father which means Adolin is always on duty. 

There were signs Adolin was starting to crack: Dalinar witnessed them, but he never clicker nor realized. I wonder if part of this character arc will be realizing it.

2 hours ago, gbazz4 said:

The more i think about this i think there is a really interesting point being made by @Calderis. In one of the books i think i recall them mentioning that in Alethi society assassination is ok as long as it can't be traced back to you. So in Adolin's situation by cleaning up the scene and hiding the evidence there is a chance this doesn't become the huge issue we expect it to because it might not be that huge for other Alethi. We might just be attaching more of our real world justice philosophy to this situation than we should. If assassination is acceptable (assuming i remembered that right) then really there is no difference in Adolin killing Sadeas than a hired assassin so long as he doesn't get caught. If Sadeas' group find evidence and can tie it to Adolin then we might have the problem we all are envisioning (i don't remember the scene enough to even think if there was any special detail that could be used to tie Adolin to the crime. Did Sadeas' guards see Adolin? If it is just blood and a knife wound how do they narrow it down to specifically Adolin?). In any event this will be interesting to see how it plays out.

Brandon mentioned in a recent WoB there was no witness, so I would toss this one out of the list of possibilities. If Adolin is caught, it won't be because someone saw him. How can they narrow it to him? Well... It should be easy enough to figure out the mark he had been erasing was the one explorers have been doing which should narrow it down to one of the searching parties. From there, it shouldn't be hard enough to have someone causally say Adolin has been wandering alone for some time... It isn't direct proof, but it should raise a few questions.

[Krandacth]

7 hours ago, gbazz4 said:

The more i think about this i think there is a really interesting point being made by @Calderis. In one of the books i think i recall them mentioning that in Alethi society assassination is ok as long as it can't be traced back to you. So in Adolin's situation by cleaning up the scene and hiding the evidence there is a chance this doesn't become the huge issue we expect it to because it might not be that huge for other Alethi. We might just be attaching more of our real world justice philosophy to this situation than we should. If assassination is acceptable (assuming i remembered that right) then really there is no difference in Adolin killing Sadeas than a hired assassin so long as he doesn't get caught. If Sadeas' group find evidence and can tie it to Adolin then we might have the problem we all are envisioning (i don't remember the scene enough to even think if there was any special detail that could be used to tie Adolin to the crime. Did Sadeas' guards see Adolin? If it is just blood and a knife wound how do they narrow it down to specifically Adolin?). In any event this will be interesting to see how it plays out.

Also, I believe that Adolin cut the bloodied cuffs off his shirt/jacket/whatever he was wearing. So, not only did he go wandering off on his own in the rough vicinity and at the rough time of the assassination, if anyone noticed the disappearing cuffs then that would be more than enough circumstantial evidence for the Alethi, given someone like Ialai backing it.

For my 2c on the wider discussion, I agree with variability-of-morality argument that has been put forward so eloquently by a few sharders. Kudos given.

[maxal]

6 hours ago, Krandacth said:

Also, I believe that Adolin cut the bloodied cuffs off his shirt/jacket/whatever he was wearing. So, not only did he go wandering off on his own in the rough vicinity and at the rough time of the assassination, if anyone noticed the disappearing cuffs then that would be more than enough circumstantial evidence for the Alethi, given someone like Ialai backing it.

For my 2c on the wider discussion, I agree with variability-of-morality argument that has been put forward so eloquently by a few sharders. Kudos given.

Oh something else which could pin-point towards Adolin... We know he erased the mark he had made close to the murder scene, but had he erase all the marks which led him there? He then walked to another area and pretended he had been there all along, but did he make a plausible trail of marks to justify how he got there? I mean, following marks on a wall, seeing where they lead and see where the trail inexplicably breaks down is pretty basic forensic. Someone clever could figure it out. Especially if one of the searcher casually mentioned Prince Adolin has been on his own for a while and inexplicably came back without his cuff... Adolin is always perfectly groomed, he worries about Shallan seeing him with his patted uniform (the one he wears under his Plate) and his sweet plastered hair, someone ought to notice.

I once had a theory Renarin would figure out it was Adolin and confront his brother. You know the: "Do not lie to me brother, I can tell when you lie"? I have been wondering about Renarin's behavior towards Adolin, I have had a few theories, but what if this is foreshadowing for Renarin learning the truth? It does befit his "I see" motto and it would be consistent with Truthwatchers to have him be the one to pluck the whole story out of his brother. Still, I am unsure how both brothers will behave one towards the other.

[king of nowhere]

13 hours ago, maxal said:

What bothers me most is the same argument is used in two different flavors: on one side it used to negatively prosecute Adolin, stating he ought to become evil or join forced with Odium, but on the other side it is completely ignored when it comes to Jasnah because the thieves physically attacked first.

This is true and it does highlight why I prefer Adolin to characters such as Dalinar and Kaladin. Adolin, I feel, is able to adjust his moral in order to do what he thinks is right in any given situation without encumbering himself with rigid personal codes. I find Adolin's way is much harder as it demands he evaluates each situations independently without relying on a code to tell him what to do and what not to do. Often, the cost of action falls onto him and only him.

 

I think the reason could be as simple as sadeas having a name. the emotional impact of a death is always linked to how much one was close to the victim. Those thieves were never intriduced to us, we never saw them, and so we feel nothing for their demise and we are not prone to get annoyed by it. We knew sadeas pretty well, and so his death hit more strongly. there is also a lot of emphasis on the difference between a combat and noncombat situation bordering on double standards, where you are excused pretty much anything in combat, but outide of combat you are expected to apply obfuscating stupidity until your life is immediately threatened. I think it results from having a very flexible war time morality, a very inflexible peace time morality, and no gradual shift between the two.

it is actually very common, in any kind of fiction, or the heroes to get free pass at exterminating hordes of mooks while having to face all kinds of moral conundrums for killing the bid bad. often, they will spare the big bad to show off how good they are, but they will rarely stick to nonlethal force against the mooks, even though they were generally much more deserving of mercy. Even in real life it happens: nazi hierarcs got a trial with a lawyer to defend them, most of their underlings didn't get the same courtesy.

It would be easy then to say that flexible morality is better. Unfortunately, flexible morality can be abused. I think flexible morality is better in the hands of a genuinely good person, like adolin, who will not abuse it but will use it to do the best out of any situation. Knowing dalinar's past, and how he could be if he didn't have a code to stick to, I'd say he's right to be inflexible.

Edited July 25, 2017 by king of nowhere

[maxal]

10 hours ago, king of nowhere said:

I think the reason could be as simple as sadeas having a name. the emotional impact of a death is always linked to how much one was close to the victim. Those thieves were never intriduced to us, we never saw them, and so we feel nothing for their demise and we are not prone to get annoyed by it. We knew sadeas pretty well, and so his death hit more strongly. there is also a lot of emphasis on the difference between a combat and noncombat situation bordering on double standards, where you are excused pretty much anything in combat, but outide of combat you are expected to apply obfuscating stupidity until your life is immediately threatened. I think it results from having a very flexible war time morality, a very inflexible peace time morality, and no gradual shift between the two.

it is actually very common, in any kind of fiction, or the heroes to get free pass at exterminating hordes of mooks while having to face all kinds of moral conundrums for killing the bid bad. often, they will spare the big bad to show off how good they are, but they will rarely stick to nonlethal force against the mooks, even though they were generally much more deserving of mercy. Even in real life it happens: nazi hierarcs got a trial with a lawyer to defend them, most of their underlings didn't get the same courtesy.

It would be easy then to say that flexible morality is better. Unfortunately, flexible morality can be abused. I think flexible morality is better in the hands of a genuinely good person, like adolin, who will not abuse it but will use it to do the best out of any situation. Knowing dalinar's past, and how he could be if he didn't have a code to stick to, I'd say he's right to be inflexible.

You make a valid point by bringing up the fact Sadeas was a known character as opposed to the nameless thugs. Those thugs can be the anonymous recipients of all evils: their crimes being untold, worst they are crimes committed against defenseless women. Sadeas hurt soldiers which are never going to be as helpless as women. It may thus be many readers feel Jasnah's thugs are the greatest evil. It may even be they being nameless have people think they are untraceable which makes Jasnah's stunt the only way to deal with them while many people are arguing Sadeas still could have been dealt with. Or ignored. We should not neglect the percentage of readers whom believe Sadeas was done anyway. The feeling Dalinar's finding Uritihiru has disbanded Sadeas's opposition group is very strong. I for one do not think one second all Highprinces will gladly follow Dalinar just because he was right once, especially not now he has disclosed himself as a Radiant. I do think Sadeas would have had leverage to play Dalinar's new status against him, using the powerhouse which is Vorinism to discredit him and... he would have likely succeeded.

It is also true Adolin not being within a direct combat situation does play against him. He likely killed many innocent Parshendis before, but nobody is holding it against him. Dalinar did much, much worst and nobody is holding against him either. 

I agree flexible morality can only work with genuinely good characters and Dalinar isn't one of those. He is too self-centered: without his code, he would lash around and just take what he wants mindless of consequences. As much as I despised his code, it may be the only way Dalinar will ever be good, but while he may be the leader they currently need, he isn't the leader Alethkar will need to eventually become a strong kingdom. In shorts, once the Desolation is over, Dalinar will stop being the leader they need.

[1stBondsmith]

14 hours ago, maxal said:

As much as I despised his code, it may be the only way Dalinar will ever be good, but while he may be the leader they currently need, he isn't the leader Alethkar will need to eventually become a strong kingdom. In shorts, once the Desolation is over, Dalinar will stop being the leader they need.

Wit told Dalinar as much when Dalinar asked him what kind of leader he was. Wit acknowledged that at other times he would denounce him, but for now, he was exactly what they needed. This is also why historically, people give extraordinary powers to Despots, Emperors, etc. They claim the need justifies the central power, but can't remove it when the deed is done. Our issues with this continue today in the world. I would rather have a "Dalinar" who lives by a code I believe in get that power, than have someone else take it out of "expediency". 

I fully back what Adolin did, and would have done it myself in his place. Whether society claims "it's OK as long as you are not caught" or not; if a person tries to get me killed, or my family, and continues to threaten, I am justified and obligated to remove the threat. I don't need to wait for a government to make a law. This is not vigilante justice, this is self or family defense. End of Story. Salute Adolin for succeeding!