The morality of Adolin's actions

[invisbleblue]

Yeah i just spotted the mistake and fixed it.

I can understand where you are coming from. It's possible Adolin gets some other type of spren. One thing that bugs me which i noticed is when kaladin was in "slave form" just before he reached the shattered planes and saw the camps Sly points to the east and says there are a lot of people like Kaladin in that direction (close), not people like the slaves and the slavers but like Kaladin. That to me implies we haven't seen all of the surgebinders from those camps yet and possibility of surgebinders being in some of those secret societies. Adolin's bro was the only surgebinder with a spren we can think of that was there at that time. Shallan wasn't and Dalinar wasn't a bondsmith. That sentance by Sly really perplexes me.

As far as the wife goes, i think that she will be much more dangerous than Sadeous. Powerful, smart and vengeful.

Edited June 27, 2017 by invisbleblue

[Toaster Retribution]

2 minutes ago, invisbleblue said:

As far as the wife goes, i think that she will be much more dangerous than Sadeous. Powerful, smart and vengeful.

She might have a power issue, tbh. Women are generally not that powerful in Alethkar (look at Navani). It would be strange if she became "highprincess". 

I believe that she will be trouble, but not on the "in-your-face" level of Sadeas. Instead, she will probably hide in the shadows and strike when she gets an opportunity. But when she strikes, it's going to hurt. 

The only in-your-face thing I can see her do is trying to make the other highprinces rally against the Kholins. I doubt that will be a great success though.

[Luck Spren]

16 minutes ago, invisbleblue said:

I can understand where you are coming from. It's possible Adolin gets some other type of spren. One thing that bugs me which i noticed is when kaladin was in "slave form" just before he reached the shattered planes and saw the camps Sly points to the east and says there are a lot of people like Kaladin in that direction (close), not people like the slaves and the slavers but like Kaladin. That to me implies we haven't seen all of the surgebinders from those camps yet and possibility of surgebinders being in some of those secret societies. Adolin's bro was the only surgebinder with a spren we can think of that was there at that time. Shallan wasn't and Dalinar wasn't a bondsmith. That sentance by Sly really perplexes me.

I don't want to "spoil" you, because this is pretty much speculation (and don't quote me on that), but I think that there's a general consensus here (With Words of Brandon on this topic) that Andolin will awaken his own Shardblade and bond with its Spren. I even think that some people are trying to figure out which Spren exactly.

Regarding Syl, I didn't even assume that when I was reading but it's a very plausible assumption. 

Edited June 27, 2017 by Luck Spren

[Calderis]

19 minutes ago, Luck Spren said:

I don't want to "spoil" you, because this is pretty much speculation (and don't quote me on that), but I think that there's a general consensus here (With Words of Brandon on this topic) that Andolin will awaken his own Shardblade and bond with its Spren. I even think that some people are trying to figure out which Spren exactly.

We have confirmation that it is possible to revive a dead blade. It's extremely difficult if the person who broke their oaths in the first place isn't the one to do it. I'll explain the way I understood it (which may be inaccurate) after this next bit.

We also have confirmation that his Blade is an Edgedancer blade. 

So in order for him to revive the blade, at least my interpretation, is that he would have to basically already be living the Oaths of an Edgedancer, and understand the Oaths well enough to speak them, without the interactions with a spren to help guide him.

It's total speculation, but I think what we've seen of Adolin, he fits the Edgedancer well... So it's my favorite theory, but I don't know that it's still a popular one. 

Edit: and I've only ever interpreted Syl's "people like you" as humans. She was still at the point she didn't know her name then. I don't think she was capable of differentiating surgebinders from people. 

Edited June 27, 2017 by Calderis

[Yuoaman]

I think people pointing to Sadeas' POV as evidence that Adolin is morally in the right are forgetting one important fact: no one else on Roshar knows what the heck goes on I'm Sadeas' head. We know that Sadeas is entirely committed to his course and even revels on it, but Adolin and those around him can't read minds. For all they know Sadeas' words were all bluster and the man was days away from an epiphany about the power of friendship. 

[maxal]

I will not dabble into whether or not the philosophical implications of Adolin's murder belong into a thread labeled "Adolin's morality" nor will I attempt to discuss it from a religious angle. As long as people are discussing whether or not Adolin was right or not to murder Sadeas and what might befallen to him, then the topic remains on track. Even if it does derail, I would say this happens. As long as more than one individual is willing to engage in discussion, then the topic can roam for as long as it needs to.

This being said, we can go back onto topic.

The two topics which were raised I would like to address are: Are political ramifications and squabbling required or interesting followed by Is Adolin a shallow character, was it weak writing and is the murder nothing more than a plot device? with a small incursion within father and son relationships, so I guess this makes three. Before I begin, I will however mentioned there are other topics meant to discuss shipping and while we all have our personal preferences, I would advise caution in saying the author not going on with a favorite ship to be a "mistake". Brandon will ultimately write what he believes is the best story. Back in WoK, most members of the fandom believed the best story was a romance arc in between Shallan and Renarin: it turned not working as many expected. We thus have to trust in Brandon's ability here: simply because we aren't seeing a potential pairing as interesting as another one doesn't mean it won't end up being satisfying. This warning is worth for myself as well.

So back to on-topic conversation. Are political ramifications interesting? Are we going to read endless chapters dealing with people investigating the murder filled with Highprinces making plans within plans within plans? I sincerely doubt so. Of course, since Dalinar is the main focus of the book, there will be a lot of political talk within this book, but not all will be related to his son, only a small portion of it. I also sincerely doubt this story arc will linger endlessly: this isn't Brandon's type, he won't keep it up forever and words I have (or what I interpreted out of them) have it Sadeas's murder will be wrapped up rather quickly. After all, what is interesting is not how Adolin will be find out, but what happens to him afterwards. In all interactions I have seen with Brandon, he definitely understands this, so for those fearing a never-ending arc where all involved people aren't aware of the truth, will characters not talking one to each other, with an endless suspense being carried for far too long, I would say rest assured. I am willing to bet high money this will not happen. Suspense and never-ending arcs, when it comes to murder, works when the reader does not know who did it. We know. We can bet Dalinar will know soon. Now what's next? And yes, I would agree the long lasting political inquiry would be a tad boring and uninteresting.

Moving on to one of my favorite topics: Is Adolin shallow, was the murder out-of-character, was it weak writing, a plot device? I would answer one clear no straight away. Just the fact we have managed to discuss and re-discuss and re-re-discuss this topic over and over again, just the fact Adolin's character is generating so many strong responses should be enough to answer it. In case it isn't, well, it will be difficult to keep it brief, but I will try nonetheless. Adolin is not shallow nor was the murder out-of-character. The problem with Adolin's character is we mostly read him from the third-person's perspective which means we always get other characters thoughts on Adolin, we seldom get his own. The problem goes further down the road as Adolin himself is never allowing anyone to see the real him, he has this public persona: brash mouthy arrogant prince with a hot temper. He almost never lets anyone see the "other him", the more sensitive, doubting and not so self-confident him. The one which is afraid of Highstorms, of visions, of anything he can't control... and of one other thing which would be an Oathbringer's spoiler, but I bet strong money not many readers would have guessed it. It surely will change how many readers view Adolin: I sure would have not guessed it even if it does confirm some of my own theory making. Hence, if Adolin appears shallow, it only is because he firmly attempts to have everyone believe he is, as if showing he actually cared about things would somehow threaten him (my speculation). Point is, the Adolin we see, most of the time and, more importantly, the Adolin everyone sees isn't the real Adolin, it is just a front made of what Adolin thinks everyone expects him to be which is a strong over-confident slightly foolish prince. Obviously, maintaining such a facade is hard work which means it isn't surprising it eventually collapses. 

Thus, Adolin isn't a shallow superficial over-confident arrogant prince, he is a sensitive self-conscious not so confident emotional young man who reacts with hot temper whenever his family is threaten. Dalinar wrongly refers to him as a "hot head", but we never seen Adolin the "hot head", we only glimpse at him whenever Sadeas tried to undermine his family, but whenever within fighting situations, he is surprisingly, remarkably cold-headed much unlike his father was at the same age. He however will not take crap being uttered at his family, he will not allow anyone to dishonor his father, so when Sadeas taunt him over and over again, it is only logical he does snap. After all, how long can anyone stay calm within the face of adversity? Hence, he does act and no it wasn't reflected, but it wasn't out-of-character either. That's Adolin. He built up his entire public persona over the idea he had to remain strong for his family, over being this individual which always is what everyone expects him to be, when push comes to shove, he bursts and I feel sorry for him. Therefore, while it is easy to state Adolin murdering Sadeas is nothing more than a plot device, I think we may be over-looking a few facts. The action has been foreshadowed and while it will bear a cost to Dalinar, the main actor ought to be Adolin. He's the one who's deep into the chull, not Dalinar, hence I cannot say it is a plot device nor it is weak writing. It has generated more conversation than any other topic nor plot element.

Is Adolin the next Blackthorn? He acted based on emotions, he did something bad, therefore he could be the next Dalinar. I disagree. The Blackthorn was a selfish arrogant man who strove to take other people's stuff using any means at his disposition. He did not care for his men, nor for battle plans, he cared only about his target and he would destroy anything standing in between him and it. He was a beast and, quite frankly, Adolin murdering Sadeas doesn't bring anywhere near whom the Blackthorn used to be. Adolin does not yearn to challenge others, nor does he scream for more blood. He isn't his father, but it may be his father would disagree and see something which isn't really like him as much as he likes the others.

Based on this, it is logical one part of the ordeal should focus onto the Dalinar/Adolin relationship... My views of their relationship differs strongly from the majority. While we do know Dalinar is too hard on Adolin, as a rule of thumb, not many truly believes the relationship is not even. I do, but unless others see it the same way I do, it is nearly impossible to convince anyone. My thoughts are Dalinar has wrapped Adolin into so many of his expectations, he forgot he actually loves him. He also is a terribly unfair father, preferring his younger son and his nephew over his eldest. While they always find grave to this eyes, Adolin has to be perfect for Dalinar to even start thinking the same, so when he find out he did murder Sadeas... Let's say I am among those believing Dalinar will be the harshest towards his son. Oathbringer will either prove me right or wrong: thi remains one aspect of my own theory making I am not entirely sure of. Room for mistakes must be allowed, but truly Dalinar will have a problem. He can't pretend to be above the others if he fails to prosecute his own son, but then again, he did fail to prosecute Sadeas. So where does he stand? I am keen to find out.

5 hours ago, Calderis said:

It's total speculation, but I think what we've seen of Adolin, he fits the Edgedancer well... So it's my favorite theory, but I don't know that it's still a popular one. 

It never been overly popular. I could never manage to convince the bulk of people to endorse this theory. While it isn't my own as I am not the one who got the WoB nor am I the one who started talking about it, I remain the one who has been carrying it for the past two years. I have come to think of it as my own theory as I did speak for it across the fandom in a rather vocal way. It may be it got anywhere near popular because I spoke so much of it, but it never breached the final frontier. It never got the wholesome support of the fandom as other theories did. I somehow never found the right way to phrase my arguments which would convince more people: it may be there is no right way. 

Obviously, it is remains my favorite theory, but I have failed to convince too many of it. I have come to the point where I am just going to RAFO. If I am right, the Oathbringer will make it obvious. If I am wrong, then I will have to re-work my character analysis.

[Krandacth]

First of all, I've really liked how to the point the OP of this thread was, as it has allowed people to speak plainly about what they think of Adolin's actions without worrying about Ships or in world consequences (though those have, of course, come up). This has meant points have been raised that made me seriously question my own moral stance on that scene for the first time, so Kudos all. Many upvotes have been distributed.

On 2017-6-27 at 9:50 PM, Calderis said:

So in order for him to revive the blade, at least my interpretation, is that he would have to basically already be living the Oaths of an Edgedancer, and understand the Oaths well enough to speak them, without the interactions with a spren to help guide him.

It's total speculation, but I think what we've seen of Adolin, he fits the Edgedancer well... So it's my favorite theory, but I don't know that it's still a popular one. 

 

18 hours ago, maxal said:

It never been overly popular. I could never manage to convince the bulk of people to endorse this theory. While it isn't my own as I am not the one who got the WoB nor am I the one who started talking about it, I remain the one who has been carrying it for the past two years. I have come to think of it as my own theory as I did speak for it across the fandom in a rather vocal way. It may be it got anywhere near popular because I spoke so much of it, but it never breached the final frontier. It never got the wholesome support of the fandom as other theories did. I somehow never found the right way to phrase my arguments which would convince more people: it may be there is no right way. 

Obviously, it is remains my favorite theory, but I have failed to convince too many of it. I have come to the point where I am just going to RAFO. If I am right, the Oathbringer will make it obvious. If I am wrong, then I will have to re-work my character analysis.

I know it is only head canon, but I had a theory a while back that was not about this, but predicted almost exactly @Calderis' theory on how this would work. I didn't ascribe to the Adolin-will-revive-his-Blade theory until I realised how well it seemed to fit mechanically, but now I strongly believe it will be a missed opportunity if it doesn't happen.

Furthermore, I view Adolin's actions as motivated by remembering those who are forgotten: Adolin's limited view points have shown that the real sticking point for him was not the threat to his family that Sadeas represented, but the loss of so many of his men on the tower, sacrificed on the alter of Sadeas' lust for power. Furthermore, Sadeas was implying that he would do the same or worse again, and in such an offhand way.

I don't read the murder of Sadeas as petty, or a cold (or heated) response to a threat on his family or himself, but an act of moral outrage so great that it could not be contained.  I see his actions as neither good nor evil, therefore, as people can have similar fundamental reactions to things that are not necessarily so "good" as moral outrage. The fact that such a "good" thing is what causes such a reaction in him, however, shows to me that he is a good person, and so is unlikely to go down a "dark path". There will be consequences, but I was cheering him all the way.

Edited June 28, 2017 by Krandacth

[Calderis]

5 hours ago, Krandacth said:

Furthermore, I view Adolin's actions as motivated by remembering those who are forgotten: Adolin's limited view points have shown that the real sticking point for him was not the threat to his family that Sadeas represented, but the loss of so many of his men on the tower, sacrificed on the alter of Sadeas' lust for power. Furthermore, Sadeas was implying that he would do the same or worse again, and in such an offhand way.

I don't read the murder of Sadeas as petty, or a cold (or heated) response to a threat on his family or himself, but an act of moral outrage so great that it could not be contained

This. This. This. I guess my thoughts on Adolin have been sitting in my head to long because I fully agree with all of this, and didn't bother to mention it. 

Adolin is going to be Highprince someday. He knows it and he feels responsible for the men who serve.

All of those who died by Sadeas were sworn to House Kholin. The may not have been blood, but they were still his family.

And look at Adolin's interactions in general with those beneath him? I don't think he has any problems with the edgedancer third Oath either. 

[kari-no-sugata]

As a general comment... it's interesting to consider the foreshadowing. Ideally, the foreshadowing should be enough to be noticeable but not so obvious that there's no element of surprise. "Surprising yet inevitable" is a phase that's been used to describe this concept. I think this topic gets a lot of discussion because it was "surprising" (or rather, shocking). Yet, there is some very obvious foreshadowing - particularly Adolin's line in chapter 50 that "I'll have rammed my sword through your guy long before that, Sadeas".

So why is it shocking? I think it's mostly because that Adolin has not been shown to suffer from violent outbursts or the like. Not even close. Actually, he's probably been the most consistently "nice guy" within the series - while he doesn't have the "highs" of some he has almost no "lows". He's generally been very even tempered and affable.

[WhiteLeeopard]

I originally made this thread to address the ideas of philosophy, morality, and justice, both in Roshar and in our world, and what each person's point of view and personal beliefs are in these areas, as such the discussion has been totally on point. That been said, I don't have anything against threads that go off topic, as I believe some of the best nuggets ever popped up when wandering in unusual directions .

Adolin has always been one of the most fascinating characters for me, as he is in many ways all the ideas of "the perfect prince/knight" but as he would be in reality, not in a fairy tale. And as the books progressed, the fantasy was slowly removed layer by layer to show all the truth underneath. The second reason why I find him a wonderful character is that one of the attributes he values most is loyalty. And loyalty has always been one of the most important attributes for me. Everything else can be reduced to loyalty; truth, love, been a protector, a leader are all forms of loyalty. Part of why Dalinar never clicked for me is because he does not seem to feel the same loyalty to his son than he does for...anyone else, he just uses him as a tool as needed and didn't care for anything else. 

I was absolutely thrilled when he killed Sadeas, as I really don't see how there can ever be forgiveness or redemption for slaughtering 6000 men and accidentally falling short of 8000 for...power? removing a political enemy? Because it wasn't even for a kingdom/throne, as all princedoms are so split that it isn't as if Alethkar can be called solid enough to inherit together through mayhem. At the point at which all the players were, the options were to allow Sadeas to continue evading justice (and lets not even get into the deaths of all the bridgemen, which from our world philosophies is practically murder too), to kill him themselves, or to send assasins to do it. Sending assasins is just piling up hypocrisy, like Liss and Jasnah said in the WoR prologue, lighteyes dealing with assasins with their noses in the air pretending to be better, just because they don't want to get their hands dirty. Which is just semantics, as the person is as dead as if you just done it yourself, just gain distance for plausible deniability.

Adolin did what had to be done, what everyone else was dithering over doing and what long term might have risked Roshar itself if it wasn't done. And while I do think that it is always possible to gain redemption, I also think that once you cross a certain line, only death can be your request for forgiveness and your penance for it. Sadeas had long since crossed that line.

I think that whichever Adolin's path it will be unusual. I certainly hope he does not get shoved aside, as he has many possible arcs and hidden depths. 

Edited June 28, 2017 by WhiteLeeopard

[maxal]

12 hours ago, Krandacth said:

Furthermore, I view Adolin's actions as motivated by remembering those who are forgotten: Adolin's limited view points have shown that the real sticking point for him was not the threat to his family that Sadeas represented, but the loss of so many of his men on the tower, sacrificed on the alter of Sadeas' lust for power. Furthermore, Sadeas was implying that he would do the same or worse again, and in such an offhand way.

I don't read the murder of Sadeas as petty, or a cold (or heated) response to a threat on his family or himself, but an act of moral outrage so great that it could not be contained.  I see his actions as neither good nor evil, therefore, as people can have similar fundamental reactions to things that are not necessarily so "good" as moral outrage. The fact that such a "good" thing is what causes such a reaction in him, however, shows to me that he is a good person, and so is unlikely to go down a "dark path". There will be consequences, but I was cheering him all the way.

I have made a lot of argumentation, in the past, with respect to Adolin having the ability to embody the second ideal of the Edgedancers. Perhaps you have read it? Based on my personal experience, it is either people think I do have a point and find my theory to be an interesting one to support, either they don't necessarily disagree but find the argumentation for other theories to be stronger (Dustbringer, Willshaper, never a Radiant are those which are usually brought forward) or they just find it pure folly thinking I am making arguments out of thin air. Considering the fact this isn't my theory, so to speak, considering the fact I was once convinced by other people's argumentation to support this theory, I certainly do not think I am twisting the facts to befit my own theory. It wasn't a theory I initially wanted to support, but I ended finding it was the best most plausible one, the one which was in perfect agreement with the character we were reading, not to be mixed with the character we think we are reading. One important aspect to keep in mind, whenever crafting theories based on characters, is we have to allow our analysis to evolve as additional clues are being found. The Adolin I am describing now isn't the Adolin I was describing three years ago.

Still, I am forced to admit many readers literally bug over the idea of Adolin as an Edgedancer. The most frequent comment I have is Adolin has nothing in common with Lift (oh how I disagree with this statement) and/or Adolin has never shown he was able to sacrifice anything he holds dear to withhold any ideal. In shorts, because Adolin was never put in t situation where he might need to make a harder choice somehow nullifies the ones he did make, even if the stakes weren't as high.

I thus definitely agree the running theme with Adolin is how affected he was by his men dying. He is a soldier, a reluctant soldier, but a soldier nonetheless. He understands death by combat, death in warfare, the normal causalities which he tries his best to minimize, but he cannot accept the useless waste of human life. He couldn't accept why 50 of his men had to die for Elhokar's little hunt nor can he accept 6000 of his men being slaughtered by treachery from a man they are powerless to trial. There is the passage, back within the king's counsel chapter (42 around that corner) where Adolin recites the name of his dead men, thinking how they were good men who had to die for no cause worth dying for.

We never saw Dalinar do the same. Ever. 

7 hours ago, Calderis said:

And look at Adolin's interactions in general with those beneath him? I don't think he has any problems with the edgedancer third Oath either. 

Oh Adolin does listen... more than others are giving him credit for. After all, didn't he use the information Shallan told Kaladin about the rock formation to secure an important victory? Didn't he offer a quiet ear to both Shallan and Kaladin? Wasn't the only one to ever listen to Kaladin, to believe him, to think he might be telling the truth, to stop playing a game and really attempt at listening to this man he owes he life to?

Of course, many would say it isn't enough, many would argue how little Lift listens to real forgotten, beggars and how Adolin could only even begin to reach her ankle if he were to listen to beggars in the street but I feel they forgot the most important aspect of the oath: the forgotten need not be low-life low-ranked individuals, they can be upper ranked people nobody is giving any credit for. They can be anyone and, during his time in prison, I do feel Kaladin was a forgotten. Also, I could also state how easy it is for Lift to listen to a bunch of beggar: she is a beggar. She is one of them: she hardly have to change her perspective on life nor to grow to achieve it, she basically had to realize she has been doing it for a long time. If people think her second oath was hard to achieve, then her third oath truly was easy or so are my thoughts.

6 hours ago, kari-no-sugata said:

So why is it shocking? I think it's mostly because that Adolin has not been shown to suffer from violent outbursts or the like. Not even close. Actually, he's probably been the most consistently "nice guy" within the series - while he doesn't have the "highs" of some he has almost no "lows". He's generally been very even tempered and affable.

I say it is shocking because most readers didn't pay attention to Adolin... They also attached an archetype to his character which would never have done such thing: it may be why so many are reacting more negatively to Adolin murdering Sadeas than to Dalinar's horrible past. 

21 minutes ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

Adolin has always been one of the most fascinating characters for me, as he is in many ways all the ideas of "the perfect prince/knight" but as he would be in reality, not in a fairy tale. And as the books progressed, the fantasy was slowly removed layer by layer to show all the truth underneath. The second reason why I find him a wonderful character is that one of the attributes he values most is loyalty. And loyalty has always been one of the most important attributes for me. Everything else can be reduced to loyalty; truth, love, been a protector, a leader are all forms of loyalty. Part of why Dalinar never clicked for me is because he does not seem to feel the same loyalty to his son than he does for...anyone else, he just uses him as a tool as needed and didn't care for anything else. 

Ah, this was a great post. I love this paragraph because I think it eloquently summarizes the essence of Adolin's character. He is realistic, he has flaws and, yes, he has depths which are fascinating as they aren't what you expect when first meeting him. 

I couldn't agree more with you on your last sentence. This has been one part of my personal argumentation which hasn't gone down very well, on average. Not many agree with me when I say Dalinar isn't treating Adolin right. Dalinar.. Dalinar whom would do anything for Elhokar and probably for Renarin as well, but never gave Adolin's life more than an afterthought as if he expects his eldest would gladly give it away to his cause. It hurts knowing Adolin actually would, but not Elhokar and yet Elhokar is not one life Dalinar would be willing to sacrifice: he would never ask it out of anyone else but Adolin and it grates me. So yes, I would say you put it into the right words: Dalinar isn't as loyal to Adolin as he is to basically anyone else. He wouldn't waste any other life but his own son and seems to only care for his eldest as far as what he can provide him. Ialai did say it, now didn't she: "Careful Torol, this boy is a tool". And a tool he is: it'd be great if Dalinar could accept he also is... his son.

It is sad, especially since I do think Dalinar does love Adolin, but how is it he can't show it? How is it he prefers Elhokar, Renarin and even Kaladin to his own son? Why is it Dalinar is unable to give Adolin the same treatment he reserves to... everyone else. Sure, he's the heir, but that doesn't explain all of it.

28 minutes ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

I think that whichever Adolin's path it will be unusual. I certainly hope he does not get shoved aside, as he has many possible arcs and hidden depths. 

Me too, but huh, it isn't as if I have ways to change the outcome of the series. I have no idea how satisfying Adolin's entire story arc is in Oathbringer. The only ones which do know are Brandon, his team and the beta readers, but I doubt anyone of them would open-up on this.

I however agree Adolin is a fascinating character, much more complex he has been given credit for and I sincerely hope Brandon will find a way to give him a place to grow within the story he planned.

[kari-no-sugata]

26 minutes ago, maxal said:

Still, I am forced to admit many readers literally bug over the idea of Adolin as an Edgedancer. The most frequent comment I have is Adolin has nothing in common with Lift (oh how I disagree with this statement) and/or Adolin has never shown he was able to sacrifice anything he holds dear to withhold any ideal. In shorts, because Adolin was never put in t situation where he might need to make a harder choice somehow nullifies the ones he did make, even if the stakes weren't as high.

I think a lot of people struggle to imagine the viewpoint of spren. They are very definitely not human and don't judge humans in the way that other humans do, and often find human ways baffling. So yes, I agree - I can also see underlying principals in some of Adolin's behaviour that are in common with some of Lift's behaviour that is relevant to the Edgedancers (or rather, their spren).

 

26 minutes ago, maxal said:

I thus definitely agree the running theme with Adolin is how affected he was by his men dying. He is a soldier, a reluctant soldier, but a soldier nonetheless. He understands death by combat, death in warfare, the normal causalities which he tries his best to minimize, but he cannot accept the useless waste of human life. He couldn't accept why 50 of his men had to die for Elhokar's little hunt nor can he accept 6000 of his men being slaughtered by treachery from a man they are powerless to trial. There is the passage, back within the king's counsel chapter (42 around that corner) where Adolin recites the name of his dead men, thinking how they were good men who had to die for no cause worth dying for.

We never saw Dalinar do the same. Ever.

Possibly chapter 37, in response to Adolin seeing Sadeas...?

Quote

Havar, Perethom, and Ilamar—good soldiers, good friends—had died that day. They and six thousand more.

 

26 minutes ago, maxal said:

I say it is shocking because most readers didn't pay attention to Adolin... They also attached an archetype to his character which would never have done such thing: it may be why so many are reacting more negatively to Adolin murdering Sadeas than to Dalinar's horrible past.

With regards to archetypes, I think that's pretty much the equivalent to what I was saying.

[Calderis]

3 minutes ago, kari-no-sugata said:

I think a lot of people struggle to imagine the viewpoint of spren. They are very definitely not human and don't judge humans in the way that other humans do, and often find human ways baffling. So yes, I agree - I can also see underlying principals in some of Adolin's behaviour that are in common with some of Lift's behaviour that is relevant to the Edgedancers (or rather, their spren)

I also think that, though she may grow into it, Lift does not seem to be your traditional Edgedancer. The in world Words of Radiance referred to them as the most refined and graceful of the Orders, if I remember correctly. Nale calls her a disgrace. 

I think one of the biggest issues people have when comparing anyone as a potential Edgedancer, is using Lift as a benchmark.

While I think she definitely has the potential, as she currently is the traditional style of Edgedancer probably would have questioned her Spren on it's choice. 

[kari-no-sugata]

33 minutes ago, Calderis said:

I also think that, though she may grow into it, Lift does not seem to be your traditional Edgedancer. The in world Words of Radiance referred to them as the most refined and graceful of the Orders, if I remember correctly. Nale calls her a disgrace. 

I think one of the biggest issues people have when comparing anyone as a potential Edgedancer, is using Lift as a benchmark.

While I think she definitely has the potential, as she currently is the traditional style of Edgedancer probably would have questioned her Spren on it's choice. 

I seem to remember Brandon saying that he wanted to create a character who was intentionally far from the "image" of a "knight" and Lift was the result. So yeah, not typical. But she still has to match certain aspects of the Edgedancers - ie her Oaths. Regarding "grow into it", I also suspect that Lift will become slightly more typical of Edgedancers over time - essentially due to their shared Surges and Oaths (and spren type).

With regards to the "image" of "Edgedancers" that Nale talks about, it's of course different to untangle certain things. For example: cause and effect - is their "grace" a side effect of them needing good balance to make use of their powers effectively (ie something they develop over time) or something that they're selected for from the start? Their Oaths don't reflect it and while Wyndle seems rather "genteel" it doesn't mean that "refinement and grace" is their main selection criteria (no evidence that I can see). For example: side-effect of the magic system - automatic bonus from their spren bond, perhaps. For example: traditions/ideals - maybe the Edgedancer Herald was particularly well known for certain things so the Radiants followed that. For example: group think sustained over generations - maybe it's something that simply developed over time for no obvious reason.

Anyway... Getting a bit off topic.

I'm not sure if Edgedancer spren would either "like" or "dislike" Adolin's actions. Highly speculative for now at least. Maybe they would see Sadeas as a "weed" that needed to be eradicated?

If we ever do see Adolin reviving his Shardblade then I guess it means he won't lose it (or at least not permanently).

[red032]

Hope Adolin is a skybreaker.

If not he has oppened a door to Odium.

[maxal]

4 hours ago, Calderis said:

I think one of the biggest issues people have when comparing anyone as a potential Edgedancer, is using Lift as a benchmark.

It is an issue especially since Lift, being a beggar and an orphan, is naturally drawn to the street dwellers. I personally did not find it extraordinarily she managed to listen to what they had to say considering she spend the last years being one of them. Hence, whenever using Lift as a benchmark, I fear many might be losing the purpose of the order. Sure, beggars would likely account for "forgotten", but very few people considered the possibility the term might encompass a slightly bigger kind of people. Thus, because Adolin is not serving soup to the poor, because he isn't rescuing from death a poor thief (he saved a prostitute, but this does not count as Dalinar would have done the same, even though we have no idea if he would or not), because he isn't spending time with beggars (out of not being one himself), then whatever he does isn't enough.

Lift is a forgotten, finding out her first two oaths was incredibly easy. I say, Adolin accomplishing the same would make a much better story, but hey, this is just me.

4 hours ago, kari-no-sugata said:

Possibly chapter 37, in response to Adolin seeing Sadeas...?

Yes, this is the one. So chapter 37? I had chapter 42 in mind, but I was close  I love this quote and I feel it is often overlooked. Right here and there Adolin shows how much he cares about his dead soldiers. He remembers their name. He is doing it to honor their memory. Who else has done the same?

4 hours ago, kari-no-sugata said:

With regards to archetypes, I think that's pretty much the equivalent to what I was saying.

Yep, I guess you were. Hence, I do agree with you.

3 hours ago, kari-no-sugata said:

I seem to remember Brandon saying that he wanted to create a character who was intentionally far from the "image" of a "knight" and Lift was the result. So yeah, not typical. But she still has to match certain aspects of the Edgedancers - ie her Oaths. Regarding "grow into it", I also suspect that Lift will become slightly more typical of Edgedancers over time - essentially due to their shared Surges and Oaths (and spren type).

With regards to the "image" of "Edgedancers" that Nale talks about, it's of course different to untangle certain things. For example: cause and effect - is their "grace" a side effect of them needing good balance to make use of their powers effectively (ie something they develop over time) or something that they're selected for from the start? Their Oaths don't reflect it and while Wyndle seems rather "genteel" it doesn't mean that "refinement and grace" is their main selection criteria (no evidence that I can see). For example: side-effect of the magic system - automatic bonus from their spren bond, perhaps. For example: traditions/ideals - maybe the Edgedancer Herald was particularly well known for certain things so the Radiants followed that. For example: group think sustained over generations - maybe it's something that simply developed over time for no obvious reason.

Anyway... Getting a bit off topic.

I'm not sure if Edgedancer spren would either "like" or "dislike" Adolin's actions. Highly speculative for now at least. Maybe they would see Sadeas as a "weed" that needed to be eradicated?

If we ever do see Adolin reviving his Shardblade then I guess it means he won't lose it (or at least not permanently).

With regards to Lift not being a typical Edgedancer, I would argue she is a little girl who grew up on the street. What opportunity did she get to become refine and elegant? She however seems to grow into, in the Edgedancer novel, she liked the new clothes they made for her, the finery of the palace and one of the reason she ran away is because she feared it would changed her. I say, she was growing more and more into a more typical Edgedancer, just give her time. I would however argue, as I said earlier, the fact she did grow up on the street makes it much easier for her to progress: she did seem to need much growth to find her oaths, not like Kaladin nor Shallan needed. She just had to acknowledged what she already was.

I do agree sprens are unlikely be looking for "elegant" or "refined" as these might be traits the knights gained out of contact with their sophisticated spren. 

Being almost purely of Cultivation, I say it is highly probable the Edgedancers wouldn't care much for Sadeas's murder, not considering Adolin did it to honor the memory of dead people. 

I have always strongly rooted for Adolin losing his Blade (and regaining it at a later time) because I have always felt the scene where he has to give it away would be immensely powerful.

1 hour ago, red032 said:

Hope Adolin is a skybreaker.

If not he has oppened a door to Odium.

Nope. The Skybreakers are concerned with the written words of the law which Adolin broke: they wouldn't want him. This has been confirmed by the author. As for Odium, quite sincerely, Adolin did about the least reprehensible murder nor action among the main cast: if a door to Odium is open to him, then it has already admitted Dalinar, Shallan, Jasnah and Kaladin.

Just because Adolin killed someone does not mean he is turning evil. Dalinar did so much worst.

 

[Calderis]

9 minutes ago, maxal said:

Being almost purely of Cultivation, I say it is highly probable the Edgedancers wouldn't care much for Sadeas's murder, not considering Adolin did it to honor the memory of dead people.

I disagree, I think a spren of honor is much more likely to find a killing inappropriate if it doesn't fit into the correct codified course of action. 

A spren of Cultivation, to my mind, is much more likely to understand that sometimes killing is not right or wrong, but simply necessary. Whether the rationale is hunter/prey, threat removal, or the concept of pruning/culling. Nature, and the concept of cultivation I. E. Intelligently directed growth, are much more permissive of killing as an act of necessity than a structure of honor requiring a set moral code. 

[The One Who Connects]

1 hour ago, red032 said:

Hope Adolin is a skybreaker.

If not he has oppened a door to Odium.

Murder being evil is dependent on where the line for "the greater good" is drawn. Blackthorn Dalinar conquered to unite Alethkar, Kaladin tore through the Parshendi to save Dalinar. Adolin killed one person in a fight instigated by said person.

As for Skybreakers, Maxal is right. That greater good I mentioned means nothing to them, only the law matters.

[maxal]

6 minutes ago, Calderis said:

I disagree, I think a spren of honor is much more likely to find a killing inappropriate if it doesn't fit into the correct codified course of action. 

A spren of Cultivation, to my mind, is much more likely to understand that sometimes killing is not right or wrong, but simply necessary. Whether the rationale is hunter/prey, threat removal, or the concept of pruning/culling. Nature, and the concept of cultivation I. E. Intelligently directed growth, are much more permissive of killing as an act of necessity than a structure of honor requiring a set moral code. 

I think my sentence was badly phrased. I meant a strongly oriented Cultivation spren is less likely to care about Adolin murdering Sadeas than a strongly oriented Honor spren. I think we agree over this particular topic., just I wrote it very badly 

 

[Calderis]

2 minutes ago, maxal said:

I think my sentence was badly phrased. I meant a strongly oriented Cultivation spren is less likely to care about Adolin murdering Sadeas than a strongly oriented Honor spren. I think we agree over this particular topic., just I wrote it very badly 

 

Oh, yes, I totally misunderstood, and agree. 

[maxal]

Just now, Calderis said:

Oh, yes, I totally misunderstood, and agree. 

Yeah well not your fault. I re-read it and I couldn't understand myself 

 

[WhiteLeeopard]

I've actually sometimes wondered if Szeth might end up empathizing with Adolin. Szeth feels as if men used the law to use him for their own purposes (that he hadn't even broken the law is another ball, as he said something that covers this sentiment in Edgedancer). And that the law can be twisted by evil men to do as they wish. If a skybreaker landed on the middle of a Urithu when all Alethi nobility is gathered, wouldn't he see that absolutely every highprince had broken some kind of law, yet it may be just Adolin that gets lynched? I think part of why this speculation is so hard is that we know very little of the orders beyond windrunners and lightweaver, of course that is also part of what makes it so fun . 

As to the discussion of whether Adolin would become a Radiant, truth be told the process to decide which kind he could be has been a rather rough elimination:

Windrunner: Doesn't fit ideals

Skybreaker: Debunked via Wob

Dustbringer: Maybe, but possibly debunked as WoB says we haven't seen POV from dustbringer yet, unless he meant flashback character

Edgedancer: Maybe

Truthwatcher: No clue

Bondsmith: Doesn't fit ideals

Lightweaver: Doesn't fit ideals

Elsecaller: Doesn't fit ideals

Willshaper: Maybe, don't think we know enough about them to say one way or the other

Stoneward: Maybe?

Can we honestly say that if it weren't for the popular awaken blade theory we would be so focused on Edgedancers for Adolin? He does after all show traits that fit into many orders.

Edited June 29, 2017 by WhiteLeeopard

[Calderis]

19 minutes ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

Can we honestly say that if it weren't for the popular awaken blade theory we would be so focused on Edgedancers for Adolin? He does after all show traits that fit into many orders.

I can't speak for others, but I personally came to the blade revival theory from the other direction. I saw that the ideals that Lift has spoken fit Adolin well, and accepted the theory as a consequence of that conclusion. 

[The One Who Connects]

17 minutes ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

Dustbringer: Maybe, but possibly debunked as WoB says we haven't seen POV from Dustbringer yet, unless he meant flashback character

I'd have to look at the specific wording again, but if Adolin wasn't a proto-Dustbringer yet, then it wouldn't be a Dustbringer viewpoint any more than Kaladin's earliest flashbacks back in Hearthstone are Windrunner PoV.

20 minutes ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

Can we honestly say that if it weren't for the popular awaken blade theory we would be so focused on Edgedancers for Adolin?

I think most people started focusing on Edgedancers when we learned that his blade was from one, so you could say this.

[maxal]

3 hours ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

...

This is something I feel I ought to respond in details, but later when I actually have more time to write it.

2 hours ago, Calderis said:

I can't speak for others, but I personally came to the blade revival theory from the other direction. I saw that the ideals that Lift has spoken fit Adolin well, and accepted the theory as a consequence of that conclusion. 

This is how the theory was initially born. Back in the day, we didn't know if Adolin's Blade was an Edgedancer's Blade: it has been theorized, but without conclusive proof, it never really catch up. There were those, however, who would argued Edgedancers befitted Adolin much better than Dustbringer which was the leading option during those days.

2 hours ago, The One Who Connects said:

I'd have to look at the specific wording again, but if Adolin wasn't a proto-Dustbringer yet, then it wouldn't be a Dustbringer viewpoint any more than Kaladin's earliest flashbacks back in Hearthstone are Windrunner PoV.

I have written a lot of posts, in the past, to debunk the Dustbringer's theory. The WoB in question also strongly disapproves it. The wording says we would have to wait for a Dustbringer to become a main protagonist before finding out more about them. Brandon didn't say flashback nor anything, he said main character. It definitely implies whomever will take over this mantle has not have viewpoints yet. Mind I also think there is a WoB which goes along those lines.

2 hours ago, The One Who Connects said:

I think most people started focusing on Edgedancers when we learned that his blade was from one, so you could say this.

There was a focus on it before, but it wasn't as strong as the focus on other Radiant orders. It caught up after we got the WoB and probably after I started talking about it so often, which considering my post count is very often, at every possible occasion  Even after we had the WoB, there were a great deal many people, including the most prominent beta readers, who wouldn't give the theory much more than a second glance. I recall, in the Tor.com re-read, how nobody thought the theory was worth something until one of them read something I wrote on the 17th Shard and pointed out it the argumentation actually made more sense than anticipated. Mind, it wasn't a full blown admission nor was it an endorsement, but at least one of them read something I wrote and thought it was more than garbage  

That's about when it started to get more popular, but it dropped ever since. However, if I go on Reddit, the majority still either root for Dustbringer or "not a Radiant".