The morality of Adolin's actions

[The One Who Connects he/him]

Just now, maxal said:

The wording says we would have to wait for a Dustbringer to become a main protagonist before finding out more about them.

Oh it's that WoB. Yea, no Dustbringer then. I was thinking there was one I was forgetting about, but it was just me misremembering what it said.

6 minutes ago, maxal said:

There was a focus on it before, but it wasn't as strong as the focus on other Radiant orders.

Then it probably cropped up during my 2 year hiatus from the forums. Speed reading through things I missed doesn't give that same impression of avid theory like it does when it's being discussed.

[Guest]

2 hours ago, The One Who Connects said:

Oh it's that WoB. Yea, no Dustbringer then. I was thinking there was one I was forgetting about, but it was just me misremembering what it said.

Then it probably cropped up during my 2 year hiatus from the forums. Speed reading through things I missed doesn't give that same impression of avid theory like it does when it's being discussed.

There was another WoB which went in the same direction. I would need to locate it again. Hard work. But this one works well enough. 

It never been as prominent as other discussions, but I recalled it was discussed. Mind, I was convinced to switch side during one of those discussions. I didn't like it at first, I didn't see it, but in the end, I got convinced. Now I will defend it until Brandon proves me wrong 

[The One Who Connects he/him]

3 minutes ago, maxal said:

Now I will defend it until Brandon proves me wrong 

Join the club. We're all like that with our precious theories

3 minutes ago, maxal said:

There was another WoB which went in the same direction.

Either it doesn't mention Dustbringer by name, or it isn't in Pagerunner's Reddit WoB database, I just checked. Theoryland has this, which is a kinda-sorta answer.

Quote

Jerich ()

Are there radiant orders that would take someone like Adolin even after what he does at the end of Words of Radiant?

Brandon Sanderson ()

Brandon: I am not going to say whether or not Adolin will become a Knights Radiant, but yes, there are several orders that would be very happy with what he did. Me: Like the Skybreakers or Dustbringers? Brandon: The Skybreakers would probably not want him because he broke a law, but there are other orders that would think he completely did the right thing and be very happy with him.

 

Trickonometry (waiting in line behind me): Like the Dustbringers?

 

Brandon: (Didn't say anything but looked up at him, smiled and half nodded)

No entries whatsoever containing the tags or words "dustbringer," "releaser," or "releasers." About 6 entries with the tag/word "Dustbringers," but the above is the only one of any note.

---

Oh... It's in Events and Signings. Heck, it's your own post

Quote

Questioner: Have we--  I think you mentioned in a previous signing that we’d already met one member of every Order of the Knights Radiant.

Brandon: Yes, I think you have.

Questioner: My question is, have we met two Edgedancers?  And is one of the Dustbringers a viewpoint character?

Brandon: One of the Dustbringers is eventually a point-of-view character.

Questioner: Haven’t been yet?

Brandon: Nnnnoooo, not yet, I don’t think.  But it depends if you count the Heralds as members of their order.

Questioner: I don’t.

Brandon: Oh, see I would, because they’re kind of heads of their Order.  If you don’t count them you have not met some from every Order.

Questioner: [Have we met someone from the Dustbringers?]

Brandon: Well… Dustbringers are really complicated.  /Really/ complicated.  So that’s the weird one.  Okay?  So let’s shelve that one.  You’ll see why it’s really weird later on.

 

So we haven't met someone who isn't a Herald for all of the orders and one Dustbringer will eventually become a viewpoint character but currently isn't. The phrasing makes it obvious: no Dustbringer has had a POV yet. So the Adolin will become a Dustbringer theory can finally rest in peace 

 

Does someone have a recapitulation of all the Heralds we have met? 

 

[Calderis he/him]

10 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

Oh... It's in Events and Signings. Heck, it's your own post

I'm pretty sure that WoB is the source of the Shallash turns Dustbringer theory. Between the Heralds counting as members/heads, the future viewpoint characters and the "Dustbringers are complicated" it's only missing her by name. 

[The One Who Connects he/him]

1 minute ago, Calderis said:

I'm pretty sure that WoB is the source of the Shallash turns Dustbringer theory. Between the Heralds counting as members/heads, the future viewpoint characters and the "Dustbringers are complicated" it's only missing her by name. 

Makes sense, though that was never how I reached the conclusion. If we assumed that each viewpoint character was for each order(the one order per book theory), it was a toss-up between Eshonai and Shalash for Willshaper and Dustbringer, but Eshonai had more character development.

[Calderis he/him]

3 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

Makes sense, though that was never how I reached the conclusion. If we assumed that each viewpoint character was for each order(the one order per book theory), it was a toss-up between Eshonai and Shalash for Willshaper and Dustbringer, but Eshonai had more character development.

Ah. That makes sense too. I'm not sure why but I've never figured that the main characters would be of all the orders. I mean, I knew that every book would focus on a particular order, but my brain for some reason never connected that to the viewpoint characters. 

[+Extesian he/him]

Nice WoB gathering @The One Who Connects. Though I must admit I'm not at all confident that any of those WoBs establish that we have not seen a Dustbringer or proto-Dustbringer yet. To recap

Quote

1. What is the second ideal of the dustbringers, we know next to nothing about them

 

mistborn

1. You'll have to wait until one is a main character

Quote

Jerich ()

Are there radiant orders that would take someone like Adolin even after what he does at the end of Words of Radiant?

Brandon Sanderson ()

Brandon: I am not going to say whether or not Adolin will become a Knights Radiant, but yes, there are several orders that would be very happy with what he did. Me: Like the Skybreakers or Dustbringers? Brandon: The Skybreakers would probably not want him because he broke a law, but there are other orders that would think he completely did the right thing and be very happy with him.

 

Trickonometry (waiting in line behind me): Like the Dustbringers?

 

Brandon: (Didn't say anything but looked up at him, smiled and half nodded)

Quote

Questioner: Have we--  I think you mentioned in a previous signing that we’d already met one member of every Order of the Knights Radiant.

Brandon: Yes, I think you have.

Questioner: My question is, have we met two Edgedancers?  And is one of the Dustbringers a viewpoint character?

Brandon: One of the Dustbringers is eventually a point-of-view character.

Questioner: Haven’t been yet?

Brandon: Nnnnoooo, not yet, I don’t think.  But it depends if you count the Heralds as members of their order.

Questioner: I don’t.

Brandon: Oh, see I would, because they’re kind of heads of their Order.  If you don’t count them you have not met some from every Order.

Questioner: [Have we met someone from the Dustbringers?]

Brandon: Well… Dustbringers are really complicated.  /Really/ complicated.  So that’s the weird one.  Okay?  So let’s shelve that one.  You’ll see why it’s really weird later on.

The first one doesn't say we don't see one, it says we won't know the Second Ideal until we get a main character. 

The second one says nothing but, at a stretch, could argue that the Dustbringers would accept him. 

The third one only says that we will have one of the Dustbringers as a viewpoint character and that we haven't seen that character yet, and that there's something uniquely complicated and weird about the Dustbringers. It does not imply that there is no other Dustbringer that we've seen. 

I don't think Adolin is or will be a Dustbringer. But I think those WoBs don't lend weight either way and there may be some (understandable) confirmation bias going down. 

[Guest]

@The One Who Connects: YES, this is exactly the WoB I had in mind. I recalled it left little wiggle room to be interpreted within different ways. Somehow, it never seems to be enough when I try to argue against the theory. Oh sigh.

4 hours ago, Calderis said:

I'm pretty sure that WoB is the source of the Shallash turns Dustbringer theory. Between the Heralds counting as members/heads, the future viewpoint characters and the "Dustbringers are complicated" it's only missing her by name. 

Nah, that theory comes from the fact most of us have thought, for a long time, each flashback character would be a Radiant. It seemed to work brilliantly. We had Kaladin, Shallan, Dalinar, Renarin, Jasnah, Lift whom all are confirmed Radiants. Then we had Taln which is a Herald and thus counts as a member of an order. We had converge into putting Szeth up as a Skybreaker and Eshonai as a Willshaper (still highly likely to happen), we had one spot left for a Dustbringer. For quite a while, many of us thought Adolin would fill in the last spot as it seems obvious, still to many of us, Adolin would get his own book. After all, he is a much more important character than basically anyone except Kaladin and Shallan. Even Dalinar, many of us would have argued Adolin had a bigger more meaningful character arc than him in WoR.

These thoughts are what fueled the Dustbringer theory for quite a while up until we found out the last spot would not be filled by Adolin, but by Shalash. Many of us thought it was a disappointment as Shalash is the Herald of Lightweaving. We already have Shallan which is a very important character from this order, getting a second one truly seemed superfluous. Hence, some theorized she would make the switch and become a Dustbringer.

So really, the only reason it is even a theory is because we do not have any Dustbringer or proto-Dustbringer or someone we can believe would be one among the list of flashback characters. It seemed weird an exception would be made.

4 hours ago, Calderis said:

Ah. That makes sense too. I'm not sure why but I've never figured that the main characters would be of all the orders. I mean, I knew that every book would focus on a particular order, but my brain for some reason never connected that to the viewpoint characters. 

This probably is the right state of mind. I do think we did over-analysed it by thinking all books would have the same format and by thinking all orders would have a main protagonist. It may not be the case.

2 hours ago, Extesian said:

Nice WoB gathering @The One Who Connects. Though I must admit I'm not at all confident that any of those WoBs establish that we have not seen a Dustbringer or proto-Dustbringer yet. To recap

The first one doesn't say we don't see one, it says we won't know the Second Ideal until we get a main character. 

The second one says nothing but, at a stretch, could argue that the Dustbringers would accept him. 

The third one only says that we will have one of the Dustbringers as a viewpoint character and that we haven't seen that character yet, and that there's something uniquely complicated and weird about the Dustbringers. It does not imply that there is no other Dustbringer that we've seen. 

I don't think Adolin is or will be a Dustbringer. But I think those WoBs don't lend weight either way and there may be some (understandable) confirmation bias going down. 

He does say one of the Dustbringer will eventually have viewpoint, if Adolin were to become one, I feel it would have worded it differently. While it does not completely exclude him, it makes it highly unlikely. If we combine it to other WoB saying we'll have to wait for a Dustbringer to become a main character (and not the other way around), I say it pretty much rules out Adolin.

Now, of course, I have ruled him out based on other argumentation, but since I can never seem to convince many people, I love to use those WoB to make my stance more valid.

Edited June 30, 2017 by maxal

[Calderis he/him]

2 minutes ago, maxal said:

Now, of course, I have ruled him out based on other argumentation, but since I can never seem to convince many people, I love to use those WoB to make my stance more valid.

Well in this thread at least, you seem to be preaching to the choir. 

[Guest]

Just now, Calderis said:

Well in this thread at least, you seem to be preaching to the choir. 

Trust me, it depends where I am preaching  A lot of people hate the Edgedancer argumentation and will oppose it up until Brandon proves them wrong. I can't blame them (as I will do the same ), but I do know my ability to argument isn't strong enough to convince a great many people. My hopes are they will at least read it, think about it and perhaps, weeks, months later, it will make its way. The Titanic couldn't steer within a short distance, the same is for people. Often, you have to let them ponder on it, reflect on it before they can start changing their mind or agreeing with you. It sure takes a lot of time to change my own mind, I can't expect others to be any different.

Hence, the more active I am, the more likely there is various people will read my stuff and think it is a decent theory. Why do I care? Honestly, I have no idea. I guess I just like those discussions  Whether I am right or not isn't going to change the outcome of SA. I don't get brownie points for getting it right nor do I get a bonus within the next book for having written so much stuff on Adolin. Honestly, I get absolutely nothing, I literally have to beg to get other people to ask questions to Brandon for me, except for the satisfaction of having interpreted the clues right.

I guess it must be great when a theory we personally are found of does happen. I will have to RAFO to see how it feels  

[The One Who Connects he/him]

3 minutes ago, maxal said:

He does say one of the Dustbringer will eventually have viewpoint, if Adolin were to become one, I feel it would have worded it differently. While it does completely exclude him, it makes it highly unlikely. If we combine it to other WoB saying we'll have to wait for a Dustbringer to become a main character (and not the other way around), I say it pretty much rules out Adolin.

Now I know this is gonna make you rather unhappy, but there actually is a way to make Adolin a Dustbringer and not defy any of the 3 WoB's. Bear in mind that I am in the camp of "not wanting him to be a Radiant" and that this interpretation would be stretching the odds of likelihood to the breaking point.

1. Wait til a Dustbringer is a main character to see their oaths.
I doubt we'll see every proto-Radiant say every oath, so Adolin could become one later(gap b/w books 8, 9 or 10?) and never really become a main character. That'll be the primary Dustbringer(Kaladin is primary Windrunner, but we'll have secondary ones later) whom we learn about the Order with.

2. Would Dustbringers accept him? Smile and half-nod.
I'd consider that open enough for him to maybe be able to join, if he improves over the years. The idea never states he has to be a "good" Dustbringer

3. One of the Dustbringers is eventually a PoV character.
Here's where I stretch the rules. Brandon is referring to the primary Dustbringer whom we haven't seen yet, because they are the important one. All he says is that "one of them" hasn't been a viewpoint yet, not that none of them have.

Disclaimer: I do not support this theory, but loopholes are becoming a bit of a speciality with me again.

[Guest]

12 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

Now I know this is gonna make you rather unhappy, but there actually is a way to make Adolin a Dustbringer and not defy any of the 3 WoB's. Bear in mind that I am in the camp of "not wanting him to be a Radiant" and that this interpretation would be stretching the odds of likelihood to the breaking point.

1. Wait til a Dustbringer is a main character to see their oaths.
I doubt we'll see every proto-Radiant say every oath, so Adolin could become one later(gap b/w books 8, 9 or 10?) and never really become a main character. That'll be the primary Dustbringer(Kaladin is primary Windrunner, but we'll have secondary ones later) whom we learn about the Order with.

2. Would Dustbringers accept him? Smile and half-nod.
I'd consider that open enough for him to maybe be able to join, if he improves over the years. The idea never states he has to be a "good" Dustbringer

3. One of the Dustbringers is eventually a PoV character.
Here's where I stretch the rules. Brandon is referring to the primary Dustbringer whom we haven't seen yet, because they are the important one. All he says is that "one of them" hasn't been a viewpoint yet, not that none of them have.

Disclaimer: I do not support this theory, but loopholes are becoming a bit of a speciality with me again.

Well, I did say I have never been successful in convincing people to drop this theory and join mine. Usually, I go by character analysis to highlight why I believe Adolin is a bad fit for this order. While I do agree there might be a way to wiggle out of those WoB, I would still interpret them as "not Adolin". Also, that nod has gone a long way: it was just a nod, but it fueled so many discussions and theory making.

Hence, Dustbringers might not have a problem with Adolin murdering Sadeas (the nod question was about the murder, not Adolin as an individual, just the murder), but it does not mean they wouldn't reject him for other reasons.

Also, to not refer to Adolin as one of the main character is playing with the words, really. He has more viewpoints then basically all of them except Kaladin, Shallan and Dalinar. Even then, he hardly has less than Dalinar. To treat him as if he were a non-consequential viewpoint character, even if he does not get his own book, is a tad forced. I would buy it if we were talking about a lesser viewpoint character, say Teft or even Navani, but Adolin? That's seems like too much twisting of readers perception to be what Brandon meant, but this is just me.

Edited June 30, 2017 by maxal

[The One Who Connects he/him]

4 minutes ago, maxal said:

Usually, I go by character analysis to highlight why I believe Adolin is a bad fit for this order. While I do agree there might be a way to wiggle out of those WoB, I would still interpret them as "not Adolin".

I didn't really see him as a good fit either, but this site requires skill with loopholes. And the more entries I can loophole out of, the more likely I feel that I could be right, because 1 is coincidence or Brandon being too vague, but 3? 5? Sometimes things fit too perfectly

5 minutes ago, maxal said:

Also, to not refer to Adolin as one of the main character is playing with the words, really. [..] To treat him as if he were a non-consequential viewpoint character, even if he does not get his own book, is a tad forced.

I did say I was stretching the rules quite a bit. I haven't really seem him clarify what constitutes as a "main character" in a long time, so I made assumptions. Main being the focus character(Kal in book 1, Shallan in 2, etc..), big characters in those books like Adolin would be secondary(supporting?) characters, while someone with few viewpoints like Taravangian or Szeth(so far they've each got about 5 I think) would be a minor viewpoint character for those books.

I look at it that way because I haven't seen what way he looks at it to compare to.

[Western Rover]

On 6/28/2017 at 8:23 PM, The One Who Connects said:

Murder being evil is dependent on where the line for "the greater good" is drawn. Blackthorn Dalinar conquered to unite Alethkar, Kaladin tore through the Parshendi to save Dalinar. Adolin killed one person in a fight instigated by said person.

Would anyone here answer the poll differently had Adolin immediately gone to Elokhar and turned himself in (perhaps after posting a squad to guard the scene), rather than destroyed evidence and concealed his participation? Does it make a difference to the "line" that you are drawing that Dalinar's conquering and Kaladin's fighting were done openly while Adolin is trying to evade the consequences?

[muco]

 

What if you notice a person with a knife coming to stab you friend & you have a gun, will you shoot that evil person to save your friend?

is it murder if you do it?

 

What if that person has already killed your friend & is now going after your brother, will you still wait to shoot him? Is it still immoral or unjust if you shoot the person?

 

Sadeas had already murdered Adolin's friends. He is like a serial killer who would never stop. This was not a case of some random person murdering some one in heat of the moment. Sadeas planned the murders and went through with them & made more plans to repeat the same. Just because Sadeas was NOT in the act of murder does not negate these truths.

There was no redemption for Sadeas. He has shown no willingness to change & he was going to murder if he was not stopped.

What if you knew some one is a serial killer & will definitely kill going ahead. If you had gun and you could stop him. Will you do it or will you wait until the serial killer is in the act of killing some one to do it? What if you are not around when he is killing innocents? Will you risk it and let a killer go free?

 

The moral & just thing to do at that point was killing Sadeas. Not killing some one who would kill innocents is absolutely immoral, especially for some one like Adolin who is built to kill people like Sadeas. I can imagine some one like Ranarin hesitating but Adolin, he should never.

[Calderis he/him]

4 minutes ago, muco said:

The moral & just thing to do at that point was killing Sadeas. Not killing some one who would kill innocents is absolutely immoral, especially for some one like Adolin who is built to kill people like Sadeas. I can imagine some one like Ranarin hesitating but Adolin, he should never.

I personally agree with the necessity, but the morality is Grey. It depends on time and social structure.

If you could prove, even circumstantially, that Sadeas was guilty in a modern setting, then you would contact the authorities and have him arrested. 

In Adolin's situation that isn't an option, and so it is the correct action. 

The way that people perceive morality as unchanging though, means most will probably not agree. 

[king of nowhere]

the problem is that if an assassin with a knife is attacking, you can invoke self-defence, but if said assassin just threatens to attack, you can't, not for modern laws at least. you have to call the police and denounce him for threatening you, and then the police will ignore you or at most give the assassin a stern warning and you will be killed at a later time act and everything will be all right. the reason you cannot react to threats in self defence is that a lot of people in the heat of the moment will make threats, but they almost never carry through. of course we know that in sadeas case it was different.

I find that fantasy book morality is fairly different from real world morality because it has an omniscient (mostly) reader. A real world jury could not know for sure that sadeas betrayed dalinar, sent assassins after him, and would have fomented a civil war. that's why a real world jury would not condone adolin's actions. but we do indeed know, beyond any reasonable doubt, that sadeas did all those things, and so we can condone adolin's actions.

Either way, as I said previously, if we want to find philosophical justification for adolin's actions, we can either call him a rebel against an unjust system, and invoke the right of rebellion, or we can call him a high ranking officer of the kholin princedom enacting an act of war against an enemy princedom in retaliation for said princedom's actions, and I think we could get a good case in both scenarios. Possibly we can even invoke martial law, there must be something about a high officer being allowed to act swiftly if he uncovers threats against the nation. We just cannot find a justification under civilian law.

[Guest]

On 6/29/2017 at 10:51 PM, The One Who Connects said:

I didn't really see him as a good fit either, but this site requires skill with loopholes. And the more entries I can loophole out of, the more likely I feel that I could be right, because 1 is coincidence or Brandon being too vague, but 3? 5? Sometimes things fit too perfectly

I am not sure I understand your point properly. Are you saying the fact we can loophole out of those WoB, even if it requires a great deal of twisting, makes them more likely to be right or wrong? I can't figure which side you are going. My personal stake is if several WoB are being interpreted within similar ways, even if loopholes are possible, it makes them more unlikely.

On 6/29/2017 at 10:51 PM, The One Who Connects said:

I did say I was stretching the rules quite a bit. I haven't really seem him clarify what constitutes as a "main character" in a long time, so I made assumptions. Main being the focus character(Kal in book 1, Shallan in 2, etc..), big characters in those books like Adolin would be secondary(supporting?) characters, while someone with few viewpoints like Taravangian or Szeth(so far they've each got about 5 I think) would be a minor viewpoint character for those books.

I look at it that way because I haven't seen what way he looks at it to compare to.

What constitutes a main character has truly never been formally defined. Brandon would probably say the flashback characters are his main protagonists, but I have no idea who he treats characters having a higher level of importance and more development than his said "flashback characters" within the story.  I have always found it reducing to say Szeth and Eshonai are main characters, but not Adolin when he actually has the bigger story arc, the most viewpoints and the more detailed character development. I mean, at some point, getting flashbacks or not can only account for so much. 

So huh it makes it harder to decipher what Brandon truly meant. 

On 6/30/2017 at 0:19 AM, Western Rover said:

Would anyone here answer the poll differently had Adolin immediately gone to Elokhar and turned himself in (perhaps after posting a squad to guard the scene), rather than destroyed evidence and concealed his participation? Does it make a difference to the "line" that you are drawing that Dalinar's conquering and Kaladin's fighting were done openly while Adolin is trying to evade the consequences?

I am sure many would find it more acceptable had Adolin gone to the authorities. My thoughts are he is in shock after the event and not thinking clearly. We'll have to see how he behaves afterwards, but I don't think he is trying to get away with it. I think he is just processing right now.

2 hours ago, muco said:

What if you notice a person with a knife coming to stab you friend & you have a gun, will you shoot that evil person to save your friend?

is it murder if you do it?

What if that person has already killed your friend & is now going after your brother, will you still wait to shoot him? Is it still immoral or unjust if you shoot the person?

Sadeas had already murdered Adolin's friends. He is like a serial killer who would never stop. This was not a case of some random person murdering some one in heat of the moment. Sadeas planned the murders and went through with them & made more plans to repeat the same. Just because Sadeas was NOT in the act of murder does not negate these truths.

There was no redemption for Sadeas. He has shown no willingness to change & he was going to murder if he was not stopped.

What if you knew some one is a serial killer & will definitely kill going ahead. If you had gun and you could stop him. Will you do it or will you wait until the serial killer is in the act of killing some one to do it? What if you are not around when he is killing innocents? Will you risk it and let a killer go free?

The moral & just thing to do at that point was killing Sadeas. Not killing some one who would kill innocents is absolutely immoral, especially for some one like Adolin who is built to kill people like Sadeas. I can imagine some one like Ranarin hesitating but Adolin, he should never.

The problem is modern justice does not allow you to condone your own justice. Hence, knowing an individual is a mass murderer does not gives you leeway to kill him unless it is self-defense. It remains one of the major problems: many do agree killing should never be an answer even if, in Adolin's case, he didn't have much additional solutions. The law wouldn't trial and convict Sadeas, even if they could prove his guilt, they probably wouldn't be able to see him to justice.

This is where we are divided in between those who feels it should never be an option and those who think Adolin had much less options than say Jasnah combined with a greater incentive for what he's done. Also, my personal thoughts are readers are going a lot easier on women killing then they are of men. I would also say they are going very easy on Radiants because the fact they are Radiants somehow absolved them of any wrong.

Adolin is just the nice kid who cracked under the pressure and did something which was needed, morally right, but somewhat wrong. Of course, most are always going to take it out on him.

[The One Who Connects he/him]

1 minute ago, maxal said:

I am not sure I understand your point properly. Are you saying the fact we can loophole out of those WoB, even if it requires a great deal of twisting, makes them more likely to be right or wrong? I can't figure which side you are going. My personal stake is if several WoB are being interpreted within similar ways, even if loopholes are possible, it makes them more unlikely.

I was probably tired enough to think it made sense when I typed it. In essence, I saw a bit of a sliding scale quality to it.
  - The more loopholes you have to worm out of, the more likely to be wrong.
  - The less twisting required to use these loopholes, the more likely to be right(less wrong would be more apt, see below)
Having to go through loopholes makes the theory unlikely, but if you can go through them with minimal twisting, the theory has a better chance of being "less wrong," as opposed to flat-out wrong.

20 minutes ago, maxal said:

always found it reducing to say Szeth and Eshonai are main characters, but not Adolin when he actually has the bigger story arc, the most viewpoints and the more detailed character development.

I only considered them main characters in name only, as they were both minor viewpoints in books 1 and 2. When Szeth is the flashback character in book 5(probably), then he'll actually be a "main character."

[king of nowhere]

34 minutes ago, maxal said:

 

What constitutes a main character has truly never been formally defined. Brandon would probably say the flashback characters are his main protagonists, but I have no idea who he treats characters having a higher level of importance and more development than his said "flashback characters" within the story.  I have always found it reducing to say Szeth and Eshonai are main characters, but not Adolin when he actually has the bigger story arc, the most viewpoints and the more detailed character development. I mean, at some point, getting flashbacks or not can only account for so much.

if i recall correctly, brandon showed an outline of oathbringer divided by point of view, and they were labeled as "main character 1, main character 2, secondary character 1"...

by that, we can say he considers main character kaladin, shallan and dalinar, and none else. of course, since the concept of "main" is felxible, maybe he's using different concepts of "main" in different circumstances

[Guest]

22 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

I was probably tired enough to think it made sense when I typed it. In essence, I saw a bit of a sliding scale quality to it.
  - The more loopholes you have to worm out of, the more likely to be wrong.
  - The less twisting required to use these loopholes, the more likely to be right(less wrong would be more apt, see below)
Having to go through loopholes makes the theory unlikely, but if you can go through them with minimal twisting, the theory has a better chance of being "less wrong," as opposed to flat-out wrong.

It makes sense. This correlates with my personal thoughts as well: too many crazy loopholes, less likely to happen.

22 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

I only considered them main characters in name only, as they were both minor viewpoints in books 1 and 2. When Szeth is the flashback character in book 5(probably), then he'll actually be a "main character."

These are my thoughts are well. It is why I usually get annoyed when Adolin is consistently referred to as "side character" when he has more viewpoints and a bigger story arc then basically everyone except the big two. I consider him pretty equal to Dalinar: he did have a stronger presence into WoR than his father. Sure, Dalinar bonded the Stormfather, but he didn't do much for the remaining of the book.

It doesn't however seems to be, as far as I am aware, the differentiation really being the flashback/no flashback which is why I do think, when Brandon say "we will have to wait for one to become a main character", he definitely rules out Adolin. 

10 minutes ago, king of nowhere said:

if i recall correctly, brandon showed an outline of oathbringer divided by point of view, and they were labeled as "main character 1, main character 2, secondary character 1"...

by that, we can say he considers main character kaladin, shallan and dalinar, and none else. of course, since the concept of "main" is felxible, maybe he's using different concepts of "main" in different circumstances

Yes and no: he definitely considers Szeth and Eshonai as main characters even if their role is somewhat limited within the first three books. The labels, as per Brandon uses them, has only one main character per book, here Dalinar. The next two big ones actually are the "secondary characters", which are Kaladin and Shallan. Then, we get to Adolin as tertiary character. 

The problem I consistently have with it is I find Kaladin's arc to be much greater than the other two and I don't consider Adolin's to be significantly lesser than Dalinar's. Hence, the labels get all... mushed up, in my mind, to the point where I wonder why we even have them.

 

 

Edited July 2, 2017 by maxal

[cometaryorbit]

This is a tricky question partially because the situation is one we don't see in the modern Western/technologically-connected world (and haven't in centuries).

There really is no effective government or justice system over the highprinces; technically they are subject to the king, but this is very much an early-medieval feudal situation where the lords only listen to the king if it's in their own interest. Sadeas has an army personally loyal to him/his dynasty, not the kingdom as a whole; there is no real way for Elhokar (...or even a hypothetical halfway-competent, non-useless king of Alethkar...) to try and sentence Sadeas for his crimes - at least not without sparking a civil war while the kingdom as a whole is at war with an external enemy.

Given that, this is something that could be argued for ages. I think, technically, Adolin was probably still in the wrong since he acted totally alone without any kind of sanction.

However, depending on exactly how Alethi custom on these sorts of things works, if one wanted to defend Adolin's actions, one could argue that he was essentially acting as a representative of the Kholin dynasty, doing what Dalinar himself couldn't for political reasons. I think there's a plausible argument that Sadeas's betrayal of Dalinar in battle could be seen to have created a de facto state of war between the Kholins and the Sadeas, or at least been sufficient grounds for a reprisal.

[muco]

On 02/07/2017 at 0:04 PM, maxal said:

The problem is modern justice does not allow you to condone your own justice. Hence, knowing an individual is a mass murderer does not gives you leeway to kill him unless it is self-defense.

You said so yourself. Self-Defense.

Even Modern Justice, especially if the trial goes to a Jury, would probably have Adolin walking free. There is a difference between killing a petty criminal or a murderer or even a gangster & killing a serial killer. All of the former can be reformed if the circumstances are right. A serial killer is beyond reform. Any sympathy shown today will definitely result in a victim tomorrow.

Adolin had a hobson's choice. It will either in thar dark place or on a battle field after Sadeas killed another set of people close to Adolin.

 

[king of nowhere]

1 hour ago, muco said:

You said so yourself. Self-Defense.

Even Modern Justice, especially if the trial goes to a Jury, would probably have Adolin walking free. There is a difference between killing a petty criminal or a murderer or even a gangster & killing a serial killer. All of the former can be reformed if the circumstances are right. A serial killer is beyond reform. Any sympathy shown today will definitely result in a victim tomorrow.

no, a modern jury would not condone that, because it's not up to people to take justice in their hands, to decide who's a criminal and to hand down sentences, and self-defence laws only apply when you're immediately threatened. that said, a jury would give adolin the lowest possible sentence.

[Everstorm Entropy he/him]

On July 3, 2017 at 7:46 AM, cometaryorbit said:

This is a tricky question partially because the situation is one we don't see in the modern Western/technologically-connected world (and haven't in centuries).

There really is no effective government or justice system over the highprinces; technically they are subject to the king, but this is very much an early-medieval feudal situation where the lords only listen to the king if it's in their own interest. Sadeas has an army personally loyal to him/his dynasty, not the kingdom as a whole; there is no real way for Elhokar (...or even a hypothetical halfway-competent, non-useless king of Alethkar...) to try and sentence Sadeas for his crimes - at least not without sparking a civil war while the kingdom as a whole is at war with an external enemy.

Given that, this is something that could be argued for ages. I think, technically, Adolin was probably still in the wrong since he acted totally alone without any kind of sanction.

However, depending on exactly how Alethi custom on these sorts of things works, if one wanted to defend Adolin's actions, one could argue that he was essentially acting as a representative of the Kholin dynasty, doing what Dalinar himself couldn't for political reasons. I think there's a plausible argument that Sadeas's betrayal of Dalinar in battle could be seen to have created a de facto state of war between the Kholins and the Sadeas, or at least been sufficient grounds for a reprisal.

You bring up good points.  I see a lot of comparing Adolin's actions to our modern society and our own idea that "true" justice goes through the system with proper order and prosecution by a jury and judge.

But that system, at least in that form, just doesn't exist on Alethkar.  They have a different culture and a completely different political structure.  Same that we know in our modern society that slavery is terrible and should be condemned; the idea of owning another human being is despicable.  And yet, slaves are common on Alethkar; not just in the form of parshmen, but dark eyed Alethi.

So it's not exactly accurate to take Adolin's actions and apply them to our own sense of how justice should be executed.  As the Alethi system stands, I don't know if there is any way Sadeas would actually pay for his crimes until Dalinar or the King himself was already dead.

And I agree with you that it doesn't make Adolin's killing of Sadeas right.  But calling it explicitly wrong also wouldn't be proper.