The morality of Adolin's actions

[maxal]

Very interesting discussion going on here today! I will not reply to anyone in particular, but to everyone all at once.

What the various factions may think of Adolin's actions will certain carry some level of importance. Others have mentioned how the major difference in between Sadeas's betrayal and Adolin's murder is the former has the silent support of the remaining Highprinces while the later most certainly will not. The Alethi's system is unjust by itself: the higher ranked, while not immune, do have given advantages which do make up for everyone knowing Sadeas is a traitor, but not doing anything against him as long as he does not outright say it. Adolin killing him is up-throwing this system, he is taking one massive short-cut in refusing to play the game any longer, in refusing to keep on wagering his people's (and his loved ones) life any longer. He is saying enough is enough: no more.

This isn't the first time Adolin is saying enough. This isn't the first act of rebellion Adolin is having against the system, a system which grates him as he does find it folly a man is allowed to betray an ally onto the battlefield, but one man isn't allowed to insult another publicly. The hypocrisy of the Alethi's system hasn't escape Adolin's young mind and, even without having lived through the tragic life events of his father, of Kaladin, of Shallan, he has the capacity to judge it unfair and to take a firm step against it. In fact, we could easily argue Adolin's first act of defiance wasn't murdering Sadeas, but directly opposing himself to a king's decree by sitting in prison on Kaladin's behalf. I personally feel this scene is often over-looked. Sure, most readers grew attached to Adolin for his open attempt at friendship and for his refusal to let Kaladin suffer alone, but the scope of his actions are not often broached. What did he do exactly? He said, for the first time perhaps, enough is enough. He would not allow Kaladin to be persecuted in such way, not after what he did and whatever else this man might be, he did not deserve this treatment. Adolin might not have the authority to free Kaladin, but he has the authority to protest, to say he disagrees and to make an example of himself by locking himself up in prison. 

Can anyone guess what this might have looked from an outside perspective? Dalinar Kholin's son just locked himself up in prison to protest against the imprisonment of a darkeyed guilty of having challenged a high ranked lighteyed in a duel. Kaladin has upset the order of things: he was named captain, he jumped into a dueling ring, he dared take a boon which wasn't his to defy a prominent honorable member of the lighteyed community, the king puts him right back to his rightful place, but Adolin Kholin says he disagrees? Adolin Kholin ignores a king's order? He goes against it? And everyone is aware of it? How does it make the king looks like? His own cousin refuses to obey him.

Obviously, rebelling never once come into Adolin's mind, never would he consciously do it and neither is he speaking for the populace, but he nonetheless did. He refused to play the game. He quit. He would be no part in it. Hence, by virtue of his actions he became a very dangerous man, not just because he dared killed a Highprince (after all how many Highprinces Dalinar killed?), but because he is upsetting the rightful order of things. He is creating a precedent where Highprinces might not get away with everything, where "the game" might not protect you, where there ought to be some legal instance which prevents abuse such as those Sadeas condone and this is terribly dangerous for squabbling Highprinces all trying to steer as much power as they can towards their side.

It is why, when the time comes to judge Adolin, the remaining Highprinces might jump onto to occasion to get rid of the troublesome heir (not to forget Jakamav, as a land lord of the 3rd dahn might succeed to Roion). This isn't without forgetting he angered many of them by taking their Shards away. Truth is, not many people like Adolin nor root for him: the darkeyes maybe, his family, but outside of them? Who wouldn't take this opportunity to get rid of a potential threat? I say not many people, even among Dalinar's followers. Of course, they will try to make an example out of Adolin. They wouldn't even blink while doing so: he isn't even a pure-blooded Alethi and Dalinar has another weak son. Who would vouch for Adolin? If his father won't, out of anger, then who will? Even if they don't disagree with him, even if they don't care so much for his murdering of Sadeas, why would they even support him? Why not take the occasion to cripple Dalinar? Why take the chance of allowing this boy to grow even more powerful than he already is? To all other lighteyes, Adolin is a trouble-maker: he didn't follow the rules. Why should they protect him?

Thus, if it is truly up to the Highprinces, then Adolin is in great trouble. Even if it is up to Dalinar and Elhokar, I say Adolin also is within great trouble. The only way he could escape much trouble is if there is an outside comity charged with the trial and if someone crafts a decent defense for Adolin, one which will emphasis how Sadeas's betrayal happened before, how it wasn't dealt with and how, had justice followed his course, Sadeas would have been executed prior to Adolin doing so.

Either way, I feel Adolin might have inadvertently done more than he intended to by murdering Sadeas: he might have set the first stone towards something bigger. He never meant to, but it have triggered other events. Obviously, it might make Dalinar's task harder or easier, it depends. Alethkar, as it is will never stand united, not unless something drastic and major happens to it. Alethkar with Sadeas as a Highprince would have never followed Dalinar, not as a whole but, just like with Radiants, it may be you need to break something in order to reforge it into something stronger.

It may be Alethkar as we know it, as Gavilar made it, needs to shatter in order to reforge itself into a truly united kingdom and it might be Adolin has just took the one stone which will make the pyramid topple over.

 

[Yuoaman]

I have to believe that even a man as wretched and blood-drenched as Sadeas has good in him and could change so no, I don't think Adolin's actions were just or moral. I did, however, understand why Adolin did it in the heat of the moment, I even felt relief, honestly. 

Boiled down: Cool motive, still murder.

[Calderis]

8 minutes ago, Yuoaman said:

I have to believe that even a man as wretched and blood-drenched as Sadeas has good in him and could change so no, I don't think Adolin's actions were just or moral. I did, however, understand why Adolin did it in the heat of the moment, I even felt relief, honestly. 

Boiled down: Cool motive, still murder.

We had PoVs from Sadeas. Yes he could have changed if he wanted to. He didn't though. He'd chosen his course and was set on remaking Alethkar the way he wanted. His past actions showed it. His words to Adolin at the end showed it.

He wouldn't have changed, because he wanted to change everything else. 

[Einadan]

Adolin has always been good. There was a conversion in wok that says spren prefer to bond with people that are broken.  Is this perhaps the way that adolin becomes broken? 

[Aminar]

8 hours ago, Yuoaman said:

I have to believe that even a man as wretched and blood-drenched as Sadeas has good in him and could change so no, I don't think Adolin's actions were just or moral. I did, however, understand why Adolin did it in the heat of the moment, I even felt relief, honestly. 

Boiled down: Cool motive, still murder.

There comes a point where people become uninfluanceable. Sadeas spurned anyone that had the station and will to try to change him. He was a cankerous infected limb. Unlike Elhokar, who was more a gamey leg. This is why I call it justified. Doesn't make it right. But Sadeas as a character is an aging violence addict. A man with a need to kill. 

if it weren't for his wife I don't think his murder would have repercussions. I don't want it to. I think that Storyline(like a Shallon, Adolin, Kaladin love triangle) will be dull and uninteresting. A side tangent to what I love about the Stormlight Archive. So I hope Sadeas's death is never pinned on Adolin. Or anyone else. I hope his wife vanishes from the series and the worst consequence is Amaram as a High Prince opposing Kaladin's attempted justice against Rashone.(I do find it odd that so far as we know Sadeas never had kids. That would have been intriguing.)

[maxal]

9 hours ago, Yuoaman said:

I have to believe that even a man as wretched and blood-drenched as Sadeas has good in him and could change so no, I don't think Adolin's actions were just or moral. I did, however, understand why Adolin did it in the heat of the moment, I even felt relief, honestly. 

Boiled down: Cool motive, still murder.

If we didn't have this last Sadeas tirade, then maybe I could have agreed with you. Unfortunately, Sadeas did outright tell us there was absolutely nothing anyone could do to ever make him change his mind about removing Dalinar. He would have never stop trying to up-throw him and while dealing with his son might give Dalinar a few more grey hair, it may end up being preferable to dealing with whatever Sadeas would have come up next.

Sadeas was dangerous. He was smart, cunning: smarter and more cunning than Dalinar. He has support of the majority of the Highprinces. He would have caused trouble. He told us he would, so no I do disagree there was good in him. He was right however, Alehtkar would never be united as long as him and Dalinar are still alive: he just expected Dalinar would be the one to go, not him.

1 hour ago, Aminar said:

if it weren't for his wife I don't think his murder would have repercussions. I don't want it to. I think that Storyline(like a Shallon, Adolin, Kaladin love triangle) will be dull and uninteresting. A side tangent to what I love about the Stormlight Archive. So I hope Sadeas's death is never pinned on Adolin. Or anyone else. I hope his wife vanishes from the series and the worst consequence is Amaram as a High Prince opposing Kaladin's attempted justice against Rashone.(I do find it odd that so far as we know Sadeas never had kids. That would have been intriguing.)

Quite frankly, the only boring uninteresting development within this story arc is exactly this one: make it as if the murder never happened. This would be horrible story writing: making a book end on  massive cliffhanger readers spent 3 years discussing about only to have it literally vanish from the story all together would be poor writing, much beneath Brandon. I understand not everyone finds it interesting, but rooting for it to disappear is a tad disrespectful. 

There is nothing I would personally find distasteful but to find out the only consequence for Adolin murdering Sadeas is to have Amaram oppose Kaladin... Seriously? I understand Kaladin is an important character, but he isn't the only character in the story. We have many other (and one of them happens to be Adolin: he's just the fourth viewpoint character in importance) and no, not all story arcs have to converge towards Kaladin. This one can leave him out of it for the time being.

This being said, I understand there are readers which don't like Adolin nor this particular story arc, but wanting the story to be re-written to remove a given scene just doesn't work out for me. Brandon wrote it, now he has to finish it.

[invisbleblue]

I believe that Adolin's actions are going to devour him, sour his relationship with Shallan (possibly too late - could take several books to manifest with small lies and acts of mistrust, ending in a situation similar to Navani and Dalinar) and also become one of Dalinar's deamons and the test of his oaths. Journey before destination. Every character we've seen has been deep and conflicted. During the fight with the white assassin Dalinar had a moment where he realized that even if he wasn't drunk, there was nothing he could have done during the Assassination. With Dalinar being the focus of the next book it leaves him a little bit shallow and not enough mysterious. The author could try some hokus pokus and create something out of thin air but that would be crude. The murder felt out of place and a plot device.

We've seen some hints of romance between Kaladin and Shallan. I think these two are likely to end up together in the long term. Similar tortured path, fear of being caged or imprisoned, both bonding spren and having great responsibilites and are likely to be in contact a lot as Shallan focuses on gathering intelligence and scholarship and Kaladin fights. If Shallan and Kaladin don't end up together it will be as tragic as Hermoine and Ron Hooking up in Harry Potter. Out of place. Kaladin is also "Honor" making this relationship much more difficult to pursue and will probably defer the opportunity to his liege which will be a mistake.

Anyway, what Adolin did was demonstrably wrong and immoral. No blade, no duel, no court or a decree of any authority gave him the right. It was a brutal, bloody murder. It's a little out of character which makes me even more convinced that this is a plot device that will prominently manifest in the next book and will have a very very large impact on Dalinar's story and probably turn some really bad attention and speculation at Dalinar making his efforts much much more difficult.

Adolin as a character stormed up. Brandon gave himself an opportunity to explore a massive theme that could in itself be an epic series. I'm not surprised that Oathbringer will be this long. Dalinar's story and the consequences of the murder could fit 250 000 words easily.

I wish the murder scene, the motivation and its context were better explored in the 2nd book because it's extraordinarily crude for the writting i've heard from Sanderson. It's because of that that i am that much more convinced this will be an extraordinarly important theme of the third book.

Edited June 27, 2017 by invisbleblue

[Calderis]

@invisbleblue in the very first scene from Adolin's PoV, it starts with Adolin involuntarily reaching to summon his Blade because he storming hates Sadeas. Brandon wrote Adolin well. The fact that people see this as so out of character for Adolin, when it's been foreshadowed in literally every interaction between Adolin and Sadeas, shows that it was much more than lazy writing and a plot device. 

Yes Adolin is a good man, but he still inherited his father's temper. It's much more controlled, and confined to protective instincts for his family, but it's there.

Sadeas poked the bear, thinking to unsettle Adolin, and it worked. Sadeas simply misjudged the public face of Adolin. He knew that he got under Adolin's skin, but he, like the reader, expected Adolin's control to hold.

Adolin is no Blackthorn, but he's got the potential in him if he desired to go down that path. Sadeas, like all of us, underestimated just how strong that anger could be. 

I agree it will be a major issue. I disagree that it was in any way lazy writing. 

Edited June 27, 2017 by Calderis

[Aminar]

3 hours ago, maxal said:

If we didn't have this last Sadeas tirade, then maybe I could have agreed with you. Unfortunately, Sadeas did outright tell us there was absolutely nothing anyone could do to ever make him change his mind about removing Dalinar. He would have never stop trying to up-throw him and while dealing with his son might give Dalinar a few more grey hair, it may end up being preferable to dealing with whatever Sadeas would have come up next.

Sadeas was dangerous. He was smart, cunning: smarter and more cunning than Dalinar. He has support of the majority of the Highprinces. He would have caused trouble. He told us he would, so no I do disagree there was good in him. He was right however, Alehtkar would never be united as long as him and Dalinar are still alive: he just expected Dalinar would be the one to go, not him.

Quite frankly, the only boring uninteresting development within this story arc is exactly this one: make it as if the murder never happened. This would be horrible story writing: making a book end on  massive cliffhanger readers spent 3 years discussing about only to have it literally vanish from the story all together would be poor writing, much beneath Brandon. I understand not everyone finds it interesting, but rooting for it to disappear is a tad disrespectful. 

There is nothing I would personally find distasteful but to find out the only consequence for Adolin murdering Sadeas is to have Amaram oppose Kaladin... Seriously? I understand Kaladin is an important character, but he isn't the only character in the story. We have many other (and one of them happens to be Adolin: he's just the fourth viewpoint character in importance) and no, not all story arcs have to converge towards Kaladin. This one can leave him out of it for the time being.

This being said, I understand there are readers which don't like Adolin nor this particular story arc, but wanting the story to be re-written to remove a given scene just doesn't work out for me. Brandon wrote it, now he has to finish it.

I just loathe legal proceedings. Its a story that should be done. There are more interesting things for Adolin to be doing than dealing with yet more petty Alethi politics. We've had two books of those. Lets get to the people facing the Desolation. To the other nations on Roshar. To anything other than more High Princes bickering. 

I like Adolin. I want to see him doing something entertaining.

[Everstorm Entropy]

On June 25, 2017 at 5:11 PM, ZenBossanova said:

While the Althei are perfectly happy to kill on the battlefield, I expect they will make up for that by being extra prim and proper off the battlefield. Adolin will face the law. 

Will he though?  The Alethi have shown time and time again that they only show interest in justice and morality when it suits them.  Getting drunk, being lazy and slovenly, picking fights with slaves and bridgemen, assaulting prostitutes in the street; these are pretty common in the war camps.  Even after Sadeas's betrayal of Dalinar and his forces, did he face any justice for his actions?  Despite causing the death of thousands of Kholin men and the attempted killing of Dalinar and Adolin, the King's own family?

The only "prim and proper" we see from the Alethi is Dalinar and his house attempting to stay true to the Codes (and the irony isn't lost on me that it ends up being Adolin who puts a dagger through Sadeas's face).  Will he face consequences for his actions?  Probably.  But it will be a great hypocrisy given all of the other things the Brightlords have let slide over the years, and will only be done out of vengeance for Sadeas's death (likely spearheaded by his wife).  It will be a publicity stunt, not any manner of actual justice for Adolin breaking the law.

And to the meat of the question, I answered that Adolin's actions were neither good nor bad.  Morality is a shifting muddy scale, even in our own society.  To compare it to Earth: Killing is wrong, but we have no problem bombing other countries or sending soldiers to fight in wars.  Killing isn't justice, and yet some states in the U.S. still have the death penalty and put it to great use.  Are we, as a society, justified in killing men deemed beyond redemption?  Is Adolin justified in killing a man who was threatening the entire Kholin family's existence and wouldn't stop until he succeeded?

All interesting questions.  I don't think there is a right or wrong answer; just different viewpoints.

[Calderis]

1 hour ago, Everstorm Entropy said:

And to the meat of the question, I answered that Adolin's actions were neither good nor bad.  Morality is a shifting muddy scale, even in our own society.  To compare it to Earth: Killing is wrong, but we have no problem bombing other countries or sending soldiers to fight in wars.  Killing isn't justice, and yet some states in the U.S. still have the death penalty and put it to great use.  Are we, as a society, justified in killing men deemed beyond redemption?  Is Adolin justified in killing a man who was threatening the entire Kholin family's existence and wouldn't stop until he succeeded?

Exactly. Good and evil are societal constructs designed specifically for the application of punishment. If a man is deemed evil, than he can be punished in the name of good and those enacting said punishment are absolved of wrong doing. 

It's socially sanctioned Hypocrisy. Don't get me wrong, societal norms and morals are necessary for the good of the species, but deciding that a moral code is perfect and things are "always" right or wrong is no different than Nale enacting the letter of the law no matter how cruel. 

Edited June 27, 2017 by Calderis

[Toaster Retribution]

46 minutes ago, Aminar said:

I just loathe legal proceedings. Its a story that should be done. There are more interesting things for Adolin to be doing than dealing with yet more petty Alethi politics. We've had two books of those. Lets get to the people facing the Desolation. To the other nations on Roshar. To anything other than more High Princes bickering. 

I like Adolin. I want to see him doing something entertaining.

Have faith in Brandon. I think this will be much more than legal proceedings and bickering highprinces. This will probably add great drama and character development for both Adolin and Dalinar, and, depending on the results of the legal proceedings, have long lasting consequences on the Kholin family and their allies. It will push the story forwards in lots of ways. 

And also, with Thunderclasts storming cities and Kaladin hanging out in Hearthstone, as well as secret societies, Szeth in Shinovar, Interludes, Dalinar flashbacks, and a lot of things we can't see coming, you will probably see a lot of Desolations and Radiants. 

[Luck Spren]

50 minutes ago, Everstorm Entropy said:

And to the meat of the question, I answered that Adolin's actions were neither good nor bad.  Morality is a shifting muddy scale, even in our own society.  To compare it to Earth: Killing is wrong, but we have no problem bombing other countries or sending soldiers to fight in wars.  Killing isn't justice, and yet some states in the U.S. still have the death penalty and put it to great use.  Are we, as a society, justified in killing men deemed beyond redemption?  Is Adolin justified in killing a man who was threatening the entire Kholin family's existence and wouldn't stop until he succeeded?

All interesting questions.  I don't think there is a right or wrong answer; just different viewpoints.

Killing and murder are two fundamentally different things.

But I think this topic has completely lost his track.

We're almost discussing philosophy at this point and I'm reading extremely bold claims with which I disagree.

[Everstorm Entropy]

34 minutes ago, Luck Spren said:

We're almost discussing philosophy at this point and I'm reading extremely bold claims with which I disagree.

I mean, the title of the topic is "The morality of Adolin's actions."  I don't see how discussing philosophy is off topic; much of philosophy is rooted in morality because it's highly decipherable and based on perception on a case by case basis.

[Calderis]

11 minutes ago, Everstorm Entropy said:

I mean, the title of the topic is "The morality of Adolin's actions."  I don't see how discussing philosophy is off topic; much of philosophy is rooted in morality because it's highly decipherable and based on perception on a case by case basis.

The philosophy surrounding morality is extremely pertinent to this particular conversation, and one of the major themes of the books. 

We're perfectly on topic. 

[Luck Spren]

1 minute ago, Calderis said:

The philosophy surrounding morality is extremely pertinent to this particular conversation, and one of the major themes of the books. 

We're perfectly on topic. 

I fail to see how claiming that "Good and evil are societal constructs" is on topic. You can't prove that.

[Calderis]

9 minutes ago, Luck Spren said:

I fail to see how claiming that "Good and evil are societal constructs" is on topic. You can't prove that.

Any more than you can prove they are anything more than emotional reactions to things you disagree with.

The source of the belief, whether it's religious, societal, or completely personal has absolutely no bearing on the effects they have. 

I'm sorry that you took offense, but it's not exactly an outlying idea. People take morals very seriously, but from a scientific viewpoint, they are a construct fulfilling a societal need.

We don't call a carnivore evil for killing to eat. Without the societal pressures that create morality, humans would be no better. 

I understand that it's not a popular view in religious communities, and it's very in line with Shallan's reactions to the philosophies she studies in book. If you remove a Divine source of morality, then the internal morality we feel is a psychological and societal construct that philosophy attempts to explain.

You are entitled to think I'm wrong, and I'm entitled to believe that through genetic and societal evolution we have made these constructs to the benefit of the majority of the species.

Edited June 27, 2017 by Calderis

[kari-no-sugata]

1 hour ago, Toaster Retribution said:

Have faith in Brandon. I think this will be much more than legal proceedings and bickering highprinces. This will probably add great drama and character development for both Adolin and Dalinar, and, depending on the results of the legal proceedings, have long lasting consequences on the Kholin family and their allies. It will push the story forwards in lots of ways. 

And also, with Thunderclasts storming cities and Kaladin hanging out in Hearthstone, as well as secret societies, Szeth in Shinovar, Interludes, Dalinar flashbacks, and a lot of things we can't see coming, you will probably see a lot of Desolations and Radiants. 

I agree that "legal proceedings" are not what is going to decide Adolin's fate. We might not see anything substantial on that at all, though there should be discussion about the law in general.

I'm not sure how much political bickering between Highprinces we'll see but I think the most significant things will be seen more privately. The way I see it, Dalinar hasn't realised just how big and complex a problem he is trying to solve with uniting people and fixing society. I think that will force him to confront his past actions and make him realise that he's got a long long way to go and that there's no quick and easy way to solve the problems that he's trying to tackle. He's going to have to think hard on what led to all this and how it can be prevented in future. He probably won't get to that immediately either. So I think we'll see Dalinar deeply conflicted, arguing with himself, arguing with others etc.

I think legal proceedings (if any) and political bickering would be more of a side show. I have no idea if Adolin's fate will take the whole book to decide or what, though if I'm correct about the above then it should tie into Dalinar's overall arc in the book so it might take the whole book.

I don't know how popular Sadeas's methods really all or how tightly the other Highprinces will cling to their backstabbing ways. Though it'd be somewhat predictable for many of them to oppose any changes because they'd feel like they were being undermined or weakened. It's not impossible that a group of the more bloodthirsty Highprinces will attempt to stage a coup or something one way or another.

[Luck Spren]

25 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Any more than you can prove they are anything more than emotional reactions to things you disagree with.

The source of the belief, whether it's religious, societal, or completely personal has absolutely no bearing on the effects they have. 

I'm sorry that you took offense, but it's not exactly an outlying idea. People take morals very seriously, but from a scientific viewpoint, they are a construct fulfilling a societal need.

We don't call a carnivore evil for killing to eat. Without the societal pressures that create morality, humans would be no better. 

I understand that it's not a popular view in religious communities, and it's very in line with Shallan's reactions to the philosophies she studies in book. If you remove a Divine source of morality, then the internal morality we feel is a psychological and societal construct that philosophy attempts to explain.

You are entitled to think I'm wrong, and I'm entitled to believe that through genetic and societal evolution we have made this constructs to the benefit of the majority of the species.

I'm never offended by what you say You're extremely articulate and polite.

I just think that those are really bold claims that don't resonate with me. And by "resonate", I'm not referring to my feelings, but to philosophical works I've read and also, as you might have guessed, my belief in God.

My belief in God has an obvious influence on my views on morality. I just didn't want to extrapolate those views to this thread. I didn't want to polarize the topic.

I'm knew to the Shard and sometimes my personality compels me to respond to claims I BELIEVE are not true. I AM NOT attempting to be hostile and I'm sorry if I gave away that impression.

 

Edited June 27, 2017 by Luck Spren

[Calderis]

3 minutes ago, Luck Spren said:

I 'm knew to the Shard and sometimes my personality compels me to respond to claims I BELIEVE are not true. I AM NOT attempting to be hostile and I'm sorry if I gave away that impression. 

No worries. The unfortunate aspects of this type of philosophical discussion is it's near impossible to separate personal beliefs. On a typical forum I wouldn't even have these discussions. The civil and accepting nature of this community is amazing though. 

I'm an atheist, and that obviously colors my opinion. I know that in general, and especially in Brandon's fandom, I'm in the minority. I know that everyone here will allow for a compelling discussion, even if the majority don't agree with my particular views. 

[Ammanas]

5 minutes ago, Calderis said:

No worries. The unfortunate aspects of this type of philosophical discussion is it's near impossible to separate personal beliefs. On a typical forum I wouldn't even have these discussions. The civil and accepting nature of this community is amazing though. 

I'm an atheist, and that obviously colors my opinion. I know that in general, and especially in Brandon's fandom, I'm in the minority. I know that everyone here will allow for a compelling discussion, even if the majority don't agree with my particular views. 

Many of your points I agree with (from what I have seen of the world) but I want and try to believe in the best in people and the potential that they change for the better. 

Regardless thank you for your unique  (at least on this forum) stance. 

[Luck Spren]

1 minute ago, Calderis said:

No worries. The unfortunate aspects of this type of philosophical discussion is it's near impossible to separate personal beliefs. On a typical forum I wouldn't even have these discussions. The civil and accepting nature of this community is amazing though. 

I'm an atheist, and that obviously colors my opinion. I know that in general, and especially in Brandon's fandom, I'm in the minority. I know that everyone here will allow for a compelling discussion, even if the majority don't agree with my particular views. 

Spoiler

God doesn't love you less because you're an Atheist

Just a Joke!

Seriously now! For the small amount of time I've spent here, you come out as a really cool guy

I'm sure we will have other disagreements in the Future but that's Ok! I welcome those. I'm sure we will have even more things we agree on.

Like you said, from what I've seen this is a really nice place to have a conversation. (whether it's about the Cosmere or not).

PS: I just can't wait for Edgedancer (which I haven't read yet, I'm getting the stand-alone) and Oathbringer to come out

 

[invisbleblue]

Am i the only one thinking that Shallan and Kaladin are story wise a good fit that would add a lot of complexity and a deep as well as frustrating romance part to the overarching story?

Everyone is thinking about law and morality when people should be thinking about father - son relationship and the difficulty in the royal court this very opportune murder this will cause for Dalinar. Preaching unity and a higher purpose only to have his feet swept by his son. The murder is BAD for Dalinar regardless of what Sadeous could or would have done. Being almost a King, they could have forced the duel of Sadeus, to the death if needed or used assasins which would be more acceptable in this context. Think about  Shallan and Adolin relationship and how this might be the first wedge that would split them apart. It's also a broken oath. If not the 1st than most definitely the 3rd meaning Adolin is unlikely to become a radiant (unless some form of redemption is possible). How this might affect Adolin. Dalinar will find out or at the very least suspect it.

Morality while a nice topic to fiddle with is not important. The important thing is how a culture Brandon created would react, how it will influence him  - the murderer, the father and his betrothed, the politics and his social standing. I will be extremely dissapointed if the book does not build upon the slight hints of romance between Kaladin and Shallan. It would make the story far more complex and thus far more interesting while also sprinkling a little bit of love to spice things and events up. I firmly believe that not having a romance between these two characters would be a mistake. Temperamental opposites with "warring" spren but similar life experiences. It would be an extroadinary personal dynamic and an extraordinary part of the story by researching honor, deception, faithfulness and loyalty, the breaking of a relationship over guilt and lies by Adolin, inability to trust Shallan and trying to shelter her.

Adolin's action was immoral. An assasin would have been better and far more acceptable in my opinion but still not right. Sadeous should have been dealt with by the throne.

Edited June 27, 2017 by invisbleblue

[Luck Spren]

12 minutes ago, invisbleblue said:

Am i the only one thinking that Shallan and Kaladin are story wise a good fit that would add a lot of complexity and a deep as well as frustrating romance part to the overarching story?

Everyone is thinking about law and morality when people should be thinking about father - son relationship and the difficulty in the royal court this very opportune murder this will cause for Dalinar. Preaching unity and a higher purpose only to have his feet swept by his son. The murder is BAD for Dalinar regardless of what Sadeous could or would have done. Being almost a King, they could have forced the duel of Sadeus, to the death if needed or used assasins which would be more acceptable in this context. Think about  Shallan and Adolin relationship and how this might be the first wedge that would split them apart. It's also a broken oath. If not the 2nd than most definitely the 3rd meaning Adolin is unlikely to become a radiant (unless some form of redemption is possible). How this might affect Adolin. Dalinar will find out or at the very least suspect it.

Morality while a nice topic to fiddle with is not important. The important thing is how a culture Brandon created would react, how it will influence him  - the murderer, the father and his betrothed, the politics and his social standing. I will be extremely dissapointed if the book does not build upon the slight hints of romance between Kaladin and Shallan. It would make the story far more complex and thus far more interesting while also sprinkling a little bit of love to spice things and events up. I firmly believe that not having a romance between these two characters would be a mistake. Temperamental opposites with "warring" spren but similar life experiences. It would be an extroadinary personal dynamic and an extraordinary part of the story by researching honor, deception, faithfulness and loyalty, the breaking of a relationship over guilt and lies by Adolin, inability to trust Shallan and trying to shelter her.

What do you mean by a broken oath? The 1st oath? With that I cannot disagree, but the rest of them are all different across all Radiants. It is heavily implied that some Radiants (read Radiants here as Surgebinders) committed murder and started wars. Nohadon even shows his sadness regarding the fact that the "only" Spren that held his values were Honorspren. Shallan, as you might have read, has a dark past as well. By 2nd and 3rd oaths do you mean: "Strength before weakness" and "Journey before destination"? Because if not, I'm assuming you're saying that Andolin will become WindRunner?

Edited June 27, 2017 by Luck Spren

[Fourth of the Knight]

I'm just curious about what's going to happen with Ialai, Sadeas' wife. There's no way she's just going to let that pass. She might not do anything publicly, but she'll surely blame one on the Kholins and exact revenge.