Long Game 35: L35 Miserables

[Stick. she/her]

31 minutes ago, BrightnessRadiant said:

Yeah tbh when I went to sleep last night, I was considering voting for you when I got up lol

I don't have much evidence, but I felt like looking for a different target then straw and stink because they kind of just seemed like villagers who were annoying each other lol

I mean you and Lopen had conversation in a recent game that might have seemed like it was just two villagers annoying each other but then you died and turned out to be an elim so¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Just sayin.

edit: Stink, you have a nice post count :P

Edited June 25, 2017 by _Stick_

[little wilson she/her]

2 hours ago, randuir said:

I've got nothing against Neutrals, but I do have something against Neutrals that decide they want to work with the elims. Given that the C1 lynch isn't particularly likely to hit an elim (all discussion seems to be focused around STINK and Straw, and I don't have much reason to believe any of these two is an elim), we might as well take out a 'Neutral' that has decided he wants to aid the elims.

1 hour ago, Jondesu said:

I do have to agree with Rand that if you're offering to work with the Elims (and genuinely mean it, instead of some type of ploy), you'd be worth lynching even though you're not an Elim yourself.  Neutrals planning to work against the village are just as much a threat to us as the Elims themselves, potentially.

46 minutes ago, Straw said:

So, Joe would definitely help Eliminators. Anyway, any neutral actively trying to spread chaos is bad for the village.

Called it:

21 hours ago, little wilson said:

The same can be said for a neutral who goes all-in with the eliminators. Once the village finds out about that, do you really think they'd let the neutral live? Some of them might not care and would ignore the neutral, but not all of them would. Basically, neutral alignment is a very sensitive alignment, because your win con matters a ton to how you play it. You need to survive? Don't take sides, because the side you go against is more likely to want you dead.

As for this:

1 minute ago, BrightnessRadiant said:

I honestly think Joe is a neutral just trying to survive, but I'm just annoyed if he was still trying to help the elims after he already agreed to help the village so I still wanna hear from him whether or not he actually sent Straw that pm after we made an agreement or not.

I called that too:

Quote

But if you don't take sides, one of the teams might not be happy about that, because they really want you to help them. And since you're not technically on their team, they don't really care what happens to you. Just so long as you help them and don't help their opponent. It's a very delicate line to walk. And it can be painful.

 

Okay, so. Joe. I disagree with Rand rather vehemently. See, based on what's been revealed to the thread, Joe isn't throwing all-in with the eliminators. Joe likes chaos and fun (he's even said this in some of the PMs to other players: he's wants chaos). He plays to optimize chaos and fun. You want to know what isn't chaotic or fun? Siding solely with the eliminators to end the game faster. Same goes for siding solely with the village. I'm not at all surprised that a neutral Joe would do what's been said. And I do think he's neutral, though I'm not convinced he's the Convict. But I don't particularly care what his role is, because I'm far more concerned with his alignment.

Neutrals are neutrals. They are not villagers. They are not eliminators. You should not expect a neutral to help you as if they are on your side. What you should expect from a neutral is for them to be neutral. To play for themselves. To do what they have to do for their win con. So don't expect a neutral to help the village sift out the eliminators and report back any eliminator foolish enough to claim to them. That would be a super-lame game, and I'm shocked that some of you wanted him to do that.

Neutrals have basically two options in terms of strategic play (though this can vary depending on their precise win con): ignore both alignments and not get involved with the conflict (boring and could backfire on them, because collateral damage) or help both sides equally. Remember what I said about the neutral alignment being a delicate line to walk? That you can't help one side more than the other? Yeah, that's what this is. If a neutral helps only the village, they might as well be village, and they'll probably be killed by the eliminators at some point (and don't think that the village will protect the neutral from this. Why would they? That protection is much better placed on an actual villager than someone not on their team). If a neutral helps only the eliminators, they might as well be an eliminator, and they will be killed by the village.

Take a look at how some of you are reacting right now to the very idea that Joe might consider possibly helping the eliminators in addition to the village. Yeahhh. Um. What did you expect him to do? He's neutral. Not village.

Also, you say that some of the other neutral roles have agreed to help the village. Did you ask if they were planning on helping the eliminators as well? Would you be upset if they did? Knowing Orlok, I'd bet a fair bit that he's open to helping both sides. Do I think that warrants his death? Certainly not. Because once Cosette targets him and his alignment changes to neutral, he's no longer village. His win con is no longer that of the village win con. No villager should expect him to play exactly as he would if his alignment were still village. It's simple as that. Neutral is very different from village. Don't mix them up.

[Straw he/him]

@little wilson If you don't support lynching Joe, then who would you recommend be lynched?

[BrightnessRadiant she/her]

@little wilson I do understand that the neutrals are looking out for themselves which is why I agreed to help them...I was just annoyed if he might've messaged someone looking for an elim immediately after agreeing to help. But it doesn't look like he did that since straw and arraenae both confirmed that he talked to them before or at the same time as me.

But you're right on this, if I was neutral I'd probably do the same. This is partly why I said I didn't want to lynch him. 

Plus, I want him to protect the other neutrals so yeah I think I've decided I don't think we should lynch him.

But that leaves me with the question who should we lynch? Randuir I think I'll fall back to my previous plan of voting on a player who has been active enough but not really adding much to speak of. He seems to be sitting somewhere in between. It's not much to go on, but I also don't like how he so quickly wanted Joe dead. Even when I was kinda annoyed at Joe (but realized now I was unjustly so) I still didn't want him dead. Rand just seems to be giving me a different vibe then when he's village. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯  (copy/pasted that little guy from you @_Stick_ lol)

Edited June 25, 2017 by BrightnessRadiant

[DeTess she/her]

I'm starting to feel a bit like a broken record here, but if you disagree with who is currently leading the lynch, you can change it around by voting. at this point 5 people have voted, while there's almost 30 people in this game.

@BrightnessRadiant, I do think I've explained where my vote from Joe has come from adequately, but if you've got specific objections, I might be able to answer them. I'm going offline in a about an hour or so though, and I'm not sure if I will be back before turn-over.

Vote tally(I think, correct me if I missed anything)

straw(2): STINK, Araris

Drake marshall(0): STINK

STINK(0): Straw

Joe(2): Randuir, Straw

Randuir(1): Brightness

[Arraenae]

I think it's a bad idea to kill Joe just because he's Neutral. His win con is to have either him survive or his ward survive. The PO's win con is to lynch Joe or, if Joe dies without being lynched, get lynched.

If we're going to lynch Joe, we should get something out of the PO. Really, why would we ever want to complete the PO's win con D1 for free? The PO needs at least two votes for a lynch, and they only have one. Now that we know who the Convict is, there's no way they can get the Convict lynched by accident. The extra votes have to come from either villagers or elims. Until the PO complete's their win con of lynching the Convict, they are at the mercy of everyone else. There's no guarentee that we can strike some sort of deal with the PO, but if Joe stays alive at least we have some leverage.

EDIT: Straw. No reason to kill Joe yet.

Edited June 25, 2017 by Arraenae

[STINK he/him]

7 minutes ago, BrightnessRadiant said:

But that leaves me with the question who should we lynch? Randuir I think I'll fall back to my previous plan of voting on a player who has been active enough but not really adding much to speak of. He seems to be sitting somewhere in between. It's not much to go on, but I also don't like how he so quickly wanted Joe dead. Even when I was kinda annoyed at Joe (but realized now I was unjustly so) I still didn't want him dead. Rand just seems to be giving me a different vibe then when he's village. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯  (copy/pasted that little guy from you @_Stick_ lol)

*ALARM BELLS RINGING*

[Straw he/him]

Umm, Rae, can you give a reason to lynch me besides the fact that I'm not Joe?

[STINK he/him]

1 minute ago, Straw said:

Umm, Rae, can you give a reason to lynch me besides the fact that I'm not Joe?

This is what happens when two wagons happen.

You're the main wagon, and Joe is the counter-wagon. Simple choice.

[little wilson she/her]

Who would I prefer to lynch, Straw? That would be you. But I'm not going to join that wagon yet.

[Arraenae]

3 minutes ago, Straw said:

Umm, Rae, can you give a reason to lynch me besides the fact that I'm not Joe?

See what Stink said below.

1 minute ago, STINK said:

This is what happens when two wagons happen.

You're the main wagon, and Joe is the counter-wagon. Simple choice.

Also, Straw, you haven't been doing or daying very much that I can see. Joe's not being terribly helpful, since he's Neutral, but at least he's impacting the game. If you were removed from the game, it doesn't seem like things will change very much. You're not creating much useful discussion, you're not throwing down bombshell reveals, you're not speaking usefully in the group PMs that you created. So why would I want you alive over Joe?

[Straw he/him]

First of all, you would want me alive because I'm a villager. Additionally, even if I'm not doing much, at least I'm doing something, if you want to lynch someone who isn't doing anything, I would suggest voting on STINK, who's provided even less useful material than I have.

EDIT: Also, Rae, you might want to check the PM group you're in, if you do, you'll see that I had a discussion with Orlok.

Edited June 25, 2017 by Straw

[BrightnessRadiant she/her]

@STINK more bells? (Could you tell me what their chimes mean please)

@randuir 

This is from your earlier post...

Quote

The quickest way for the game to end is if the village plays a perfect game and manages to lynch an elim (nearly) every cycle. 

The second quickest way for the game to end is if the village makes a lot of mistakes, doesn't get any elims, and the elims win by having a majority.

So why should we waste a lynch on a neutral?

I know you said that we should take out a potential threat instead of guessing at an elim but the way I see it Joe could still help the village in some ways and we shouldn't just waste a lynch because he "might" help the elims. I already know several players that have claimed neutral and I'm inclined to believe them since their claims can be easily disproved by the other neutrals connected to them. So I think we are better off still trying to find an elim rn.

 

[little wilson she/her]

Plus, lynching Joe would alienate the other neutrals.

[STINK he/him]

1 minute ago, BrightnessRadiant said:

@STINK more bells? (Could you tell me what their chimes mean please)

it's my gut going 'PAY ATTENTION TO THE ELIM' 

[Stick. she/her]

4 minutes ago, Straw said:

First of all, you would want me alive because I'm a villager. Additionally, even if I'm not doing much, at least I'm doing something, if you want to lynch someone who isn't doing anything, I would suggest voting on STINK, who's provided even less useful material than I have.

If you think so, mayyybe you should vote on him. Why did you vote for Joe again?

Still waiting for Joe to say something on the matter. 

[Straw he/him]

I was actually meaning to change my vote back to STINK, however, I wanted to hear what Joe had to say. Basically, my vote on Joe is a poke vote.

[STINK he/him]

2 minutes ago, Straw said:

I was actually meaning to change my vote back to STINK, however, I wanted to hear what Joe had to say. Basically, my vote on Joe is a poke vote.

if you actually wanna live, you should definitely vote me and not the counter wagon

[BrightnessRadiant she/her]

4 minutes ago, STINK said:

it's my gut going 'PAY ATTENTION TO THE ELIM' 

Nope...it's wrong 

I actually wanted to be neutral or an elim haha...since I am village, I want to try my best with that role. Do you mind explaining why you're suspicious of me? Or are you just trolling lol

[Amanuensis he/him]

I'm here and about to start reading the thread. Expect a response from me in a few hours.

[Stick. she/her]

He gon spend a few hours reading the thread O_o heh

[STINK he/him]

3 minutes ago, BrightnessRadiant said:

Do you mind explaining why you're suspicious of me? 

see what made the bells ring

[DeTess she/her]

6 minutes ago, BrightnessRadiant said:

So why should we waste a lynch on a neutral?

I know you said that we should take out a potential threat instead of guessing at an elim but the way I see it Joe could still help the village in some ways and we shouldn't just waste a lynch because he "might" help the elims. I already know several players that have claimed neutral and I'm inclined to believe them since their claims can be easily disproved by the other neutrals connected to them. So I think we are better off still trying to find an elim rn.

I personally think that the chance of hitting an elim C1 are very small, so I'd rather go after a confirmed threat. Now, I've heard stories about elims getting caught C1, I just haven't seen it happen yet, and I don't have any good suspicions right now.

If anyone is interested, I've currently got a minor suspicion of PK ( @Paranoid King), mostly because he's been very quiet up to this point and he made a number of random group PM's, which is also what made people suspicious of Straw.

STINK also seems to be more trolly than he usually is, but I'm not sure if that means anything. There is also Straw's thing with the PM's, but I'm just not sure if that means anything coming from him.

If I where to switch of Joe, it would probably be to vote on PK, but it's a very slim lead at best.

[BrightnessRadiant she/her]

3 minutes ago, STINK said:

see what made the bells ring

Yes, but you literally just quoted most of my post hehe

Edit: @randuir I'll go check out PK's posts

Edited June 25, 2017 by BrightnessRadiant

[Stick. she/her]

3 minutes ago, BrightnessRadiant said:

Edit: @randuir I'll go check out PK's posts

there's literally only one