The Changing Nature of Nightblood (my 5th Crazy Theory)

[FiveLate]

I theorize that something happened to Nightblood after his forging that changed his very nature.

One thing we have concrete evidence of is that Nightblood currently consumes the Breath of the person that wields it. Emphasis mine.

Spoiler

Destroy! Nightblood’s voice boomed in his head. The evil must be destroyed! Pain shot up Vasher’s arm, and he felt his Breath being leached away, sucked into the blade, fueling its hunger. Drawing the weapon had a terrible cost. At that moment, he didn’t really care. He spun toward the charging Lifeless and—enraged—attacked.

 

The longer Nightblood is held the faster the breaths consumed.

Spoiler

He cried out, arm shaking. Destroy...evil...Nightblood said in his mind, all lightness gone from the tone, all familiarity. It boomed like a command. An awful, inhuman thing. The longer Vasher held the sword, the faster it drained his Breath.

 

Yet, Vasher has the following thoughts later.

Spoiler

Denth raised an eyebrow, his face growing amused in the wan light. “I get out of hand, Vasher? Me? When’s the last time I started a war? Slaughtered tens of thousands? You’re the one who betrayed his closest friend and killed the woman who loved him.” Vasher didn’t respond. What argument could he offer? That Shashara had needed to die? It had been bad enough when she’d revealed the Commands to make Lifeless from a single breath. What if the way of making Awakened steel, like Nightblood, had entered the Manywar? Undead monsters slaughtering people with Awakened swords thirsting for blood? None of that mattered to a man who’d seen his sister murdered by Vasher’s hand. Besides, Vasher knew he had little credibility to stand on. He’d created his own monsters to fight in that war.

 

If Nightblood consumed the Breath, how could a Lifeless wield it?

 

Now to the Meat of my Theory.  Nightblood originally only consumed the Breath of those slain by him.  But what could have happened to change this?  The only thing I can think of involves 2 assumptions.

1) Shashara was a returned. (I believe all 5 scholars were returned).

2) Vasher killed Shashara using Nightblood.

If Shashara was returned it means 3 things.

First, she had a Divine Breath.

Second, That Breath had an expiration date and required other sacrificial breaths for her to continue living.

Third, she had some Divine Purpose for Returning.

If she was killed with Nightblood, that could mean

1) Nightblood consumed her Divine Breath.

2) Her purpose to Return was to feed her Divine Breath to Nightblood and change him, or his killing her prevented her purpose from being achieved, and prevented the Divine Breath from returning to Endowment, thus corrupting it.

3) Nightblood evolved into something new, since apparently lifeless could wield awakened swords originally, but how could they wield Nightblood when they have 1 breath.

 

Edited June 6, 2017 by FiveLate
Fixed some autocorrect spellings which resulted in words that did not make sense in the context.

[Fezzik]

How do we know undead refers to lifeless? Vasher is undead and he has no problems wielding it.

[FiveLate]

1 hour ago, john203 said:

How do we know undead refers to lifeless? Vasher is undead and he has no problems wielding it.

1) At the time Vasher has access to a lot of Breath.

2) Nightblood only consumes Breath when drawn.

3) Vasher has conscious thought and reason, lifeless do not...hence zombie undead I associate with lifeless.  Yes it does not say zombie.

4) I do not think any Returned think of themselves as "undead" and since Vasher is returned, I see this as unlikely.

Edited June 6, 2017 by FiveLate
Clarification

[StrikerEZ he/him]

Holy crap, that actually makes sense. I'm not good at this whole theorizing thing, so I'm gonna let others poke and prod at your theory, but I just wanted to say that I think this thoery is really cool.

[CaptainRyan he/him]

My head canon for this is that Lifeless are immune to the breath-sucking effect of Nightblood. I have no idea if this is true but that is how I dealt with the weird claim Vasher made of being afraid of Lifeless using Nightblood-style weapons.

[LH1407]

Wow this is the most interesting theory I've seen in a while. Makes a lot of sense.

[Green Hoodie Mistborn he/him]

I've assumed the same as @CaptainRyan on this one. You also can't reclaim the breath you give a lifeless, it is sticky. I assumed that would prevent draining by Nightblood somehow. 

[Dragon314 he/him]

Undead have no minds of their own, only commands. (For the most part) So they cannot be Evil. Perhaps that is why Nightblodd doesn't affect them.

[The One Who Connects he/him]

1 hour ago, Green Hoodie Mistborn said:

You also can't reclaim the breath you give a lifeless, it is sticky. I assumed that would prevent draining by Nightblood somehow. 

The "spark of life" that living things have should be sticky too, but Nightblood can still drain that with ease. I highly doubt the single biggest issue with using Nightblood can be so easily solved by giving him to a Lifeless.

[Yata he/him]

Probably The Lifeless army would use Nightblood-like weapons without uncover them...we know  how Nightblood is powerful in combat also without uses external Investiture.

Much more for now, we don't have prove Nightblood feeds of his victim's Investiture. Indeed the Warbreaker's fight is a clue aganist this.

Lastly I have a theory about Nightblood as uncapable of feeding on Lifeless's Breath for Breath's own nature. But It's actually meaningless here...as without Investiture to consume. Nightblood Will not expose any extra power. Indeed an uncovered Nightblood without external Investiture would become weaker and weaker

Edited June 7, 2017 by Yata

[cometaryorbit]

19 hours ago, Yata said:

Probably The Lifeless army would use Nightblood-like weapons without uncover them...we know  how Nightblood is powerful in combat also without uses external Investiture.

That would just make them somewhat stronger and faster - it would be useful in war, but not the sort of horror Vasher seems to be thinking of.

[shadowwisp]

I believe I posted this theory here before (or maybe somewhere else).

Vasher knows how to erase (and possibly manipulate) memories in humans and Returned. A Returned is a cognitive shadow. Now a cognitive shadow is not a spren (although the Stormfather is spren and a cognitive shadow so an overlap is possible) but I don't think it is unreasonable to assume that Vasher can erase/manipulate memories of spren as well. Note that Nightblood is a spren. Do you see where I am going?

Have we seen spren who have lost their memories before? Yup, with Syl and Pattern. Notice that as their memories started to come back, their abilities got stronger or they obtained new ones. Of course, it could easily be the other way around (correlation doesn't mean causation) but it is still interesting to note.

 We also know that Nightblood is not the sword's real name. That's just the name Vasher gave it after killing Shashara.  Shashara gave Nightblood another name.  Yet Nightblood makes no mention of his other name at all. That is kinda strange is it not? 

 

My theory is that Vasher erased some of of Nightblood's memories and in doing so, locked/damped it's power/abilities. 

Edited June 8, 2017 by shadowwisp

[Calderis he/him]

@shadowwisp the main problem with that is that he can't erase memories in others. He just knows the command to make yourself forget. It's why he made the little repeat the command. 

[shadowwisp]

1 minute ago, Calderis said:

@shadowwisp the main problem with that is that he can't erase memories in others. He just knows the command to make yourself forget. It's why he made the little repeat the command. 

So he tricks or coerces Nightblood into saying the commands. Nightblood can be pretty innocent at times. And if Vasher was able to do it to a traumatized child, it seems reasonable to think that they don't have to have full intent/knowledge of what is going to happen next.

[Calderis he/him]

5 minutes ago, shadowwisp said:

So he tricks or coerces Nightblood into saying the commands. Nightblood can be pretty innocent at times. And if Vasher was able to do it to a traumatized child, it seems reasonable to think that they don't have to have full intent/knowledge of what is going to happen next.

Nightblood should not be capable of Awakening. He is sentient and able to give commands, but he can't hold Breath without corrupting it and making it unusable for Awakening. 

[shadowwisp]

26 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Nightblood should not be capable of Awakening. He is sentient and able to give commands, but he can't hold Breath without corrupting it and making it unusable for Awakening. 

Wait, how do we know that corrupted breath can't be used for Awakening? Or that corrupted investure can't be used? I think I might have missed that WoB. 

Edit: Also while true that Nightblood corrupts any new Breaths that he picks up,  his original 1000 that makes up the core of his being could still be pure. 

 

 

Edited June 8, 2017 by shadowwisp

[+Extesian he/him]

17 minutes ago, shadowwisp said:

Wait, how do we know that corrupted breath can't be used for Awakening? Or that corrupted investure can't be used? I think I might have missed that WoB. 

Edit: Also while true that Nightblood corrupts any new Breaths that he picks up,  his original 1000 that makes up the core of his being could still be pure. 

 

 

I think the issue is that his original Breaths created his soul and they can't just be used, they are his spiritual aspect. A human can give away their Breath because it's in addition to their soul, but it actually is Nightblood's soul. And yeah any time Nightblood gets new Breaths he immediately eats them so he can't actually give them away. I wonder if Nightblood was ever given breaths? I suspect he would just eat them instead of being able to use them.

[FiveLate]

On 6/6/2017 at 1:07 AM, CaptainRyan said:

My head canon for this is that Lifeless are immune to the breath-sucking effect of Nightblood. I have no idea if this is true but that is how I dealt with the weird claim Vasher made of being afraid of Lifeless using Nightblood-style weapons.

A couple of examples of similarities between lifeless, humans, and fielders.

Spoiler

The guard who had grabbed Nightblood was fighting off the others, a small trail of black smoke swirling around him. As she watched, he backed into the palace itself, the other men following him.

Spoiler

Each creature he struck with the blade immediately flashed and became smoke. A single scratch and the bodies dissolved like paper being consumed by an invisible fire, leaving behind only a large stain of blackness in the air. Vasher spun among them, striking with wrath, killing Lifeless after Lifeless. Black smoke churned around him, and his arm twisted with pain as veinlike tendrils climbed up the hilt and around his forearm—like black blood vessels that latched on to his skin, feeding off his Breath.

Spoiler

Vasher knelt, arm twitching. The black veins on his skin slowly evaporated. He was left with just barely enough Breath to reach the first Heightening.

The first 2 demonstrate black smoke, the third has black veins evaporating....very reminiscent of black smoke.  I hypothesize this to mean that the Investiture of all 3 is being corrupted and consumed.

On 6/7/2017 at 0:46 AM, Yata said:

Much more for now, we don't have prove Nightblood feeds of his victim's Investiture. Indeed the Warbreaker's fight is a clue aganist this.

I think the above shows that it does.

On 6/7/2017 at 0:46 AM, Yata said:

Lastly I have a theory about Nightblood as uncapable of feeding on Lifeless's Breath for Breath's own nature. But It's actually meaningless here...as without Investiture to consume. Nightblood Will not expose any extra power

This quote shows Nightblood exposing power after being released.  Not for long, but definitely when not being wielded.

Spoiler

Gasping, he threw the sword aside and fell to his knees. It skidded, tearing a rip in the floor that puffed away into smoke, but hit a wall with a pling and fell still. Smoke rose from the blade.

 

Edited June 8, 2017 by FiveLate
Continuation.

[Yata he/him]

@FiveLate Indeed to me your quotes don't mean a lot.

The Nightblood's cutting ability could or not be related to draining the victim's soul.

For now I see the holder's Investiture be used to performe Nightblood's cuts (but could be wrong).

The fact Vasher doesn't recive a less draining effect while a lot of enemier are slain. This to me is a clue aganist the victim's drain....but the enemies are destroyed so the Nightblood's ability was working.

[FiveLate]

4 hours ago, Yata said:

@FiveLate Indeed to me your quotes don't mean a lot.

Well thanks for letting me down easily and explaining why they are meaningless.

[The One Who Connects he/him]

22 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

Quote

Probably the Lifeless army would use Nightblood-like weapons without uncover them...we know how Nightblood is powerful in combat also without using external Investiture.

That would just make them somewhat stronger and faster - it would be useful in war, but not the sort of horror Vasher seems to be thinking of.

To counter this example, Kalad's Phantoms are somewhat stronger and faster than normal lifeless, and that makes a huge difference in their effectiveness.

I don't see the extra strength granted by a sheathed Nightblood as all that different to a Stone Lifeless with a normal sword. The Nightblood wielder might actually be more effective in a protracted battle since their weapon won't break, while whatever weapon the Phantom has will eventually break and force them to use fists.

[FiveLate]

@The One Who Connects I just can't agree with the whole sheathed theory....

Quote

Undead monsters slaughtering people with Awakened swords thirsting for blood?

It is the word "thirsting" ... Nightblood shows obvious influence on Vasher in the scene above, but lifeless have no desires on their own....I think Nightblood would have to be unsheathed to impart any desires on its holder/wielder.

Edited June 11, 2017 by FiveLate

[Yata he/him]

45 minutes ago, FiveLate said:

@The One Who Connects I just can't agree with the whole sheathed theory....

It is the word "thirsting" ... Nightblood shows obvious influence on Vasher in the scene above, but lifeless have no desires on their own....I think Nightblood would have to be sheathed to impart any desires on its holder/wielder.

Maybe they Will Simply overload the Lifeless with more Breath before the Battle.

Sure this will destroy a theory of mine, but I could afford this :S

Edited June 9, 2017 by Yata

[The One Who Connects he/him]

14 hours ago, FiveLate said:

 I just can't agree with the whole sheathed theory....

I don't either. I just made a comparison with something that had the same effect(Kalad's Phantoms) as an example that they could easily cause horror on a battlefield.

Plus, any enemy soldier that takes up Nightblood from fallen lifeless will either faint from nausea or use it indiscriminately, causing even more horror. A battlefield riddled with Nightbloods will become a battlefield riddled with nothing but corpses in minutes. Nobody wins, but Lifeless with a simple command may be "not evil" enough to pick up the swords from the impaled bodies so the bloodbath can repeat itself in the next battle.

Sheathed or not, many will run away in terror, but everyone else dies. The more blades there are, the quicker the destruction spreads, the fewer can get away. The sheathed sword doesn't even have to be much of a weapon in this scenario, as there will always be enemy soldiers who will try to take one of the magical weapons to turn the tide(see: Shardblades) and once that soldier unsheathes Nightblood, it's all over.

[Chinsukolo]

I thought Awakening requires Intent/mental picture of command?  So access to Endowments investiture (Breath) requires the the person to have intent and be able to imagine the object doing it.

Since Lifeless can't cognate and don't think, they can't have an Intent, or 'mental picture' of an action so they can't access Endowments Investiture, thus Nightblood doesn't draw their breath and they don't die.  Where as living picture Nightblood killing and think about how a sword wounds and so the intent/mental image is there and access to Investiture is opened.

The reason it kills everyone / works on everyone in Warbreaker is because everyone but Drabs have 1 Breath, so the gate is opened enough for Nightblood to kill them through Investiture draw.  I don't believe we ever saw a Drab try to use Nightblood.

 

Spoiler

If accurate this would suggest a non-misting could use Nightblood on Scadrial just as lifeless (sicne they can't key that Investiture), but a Ferring would be killed would be killed/corrupted and so would a Misting/Mistborn if they burned a Metal.  On Roshar, anyone who can draw Stormlight would also be affected by Nightblood, but those that can't (no bond) would also remain unaffected.

Still leaves Szeth to be a very interesting case, since he knows how to draw Stormlight, but currently can't since he has no Nahel Bond/Honorblade