Calderis he/him Posted June 11, 2017 Posted June 11, 2017 25 minutes ago, Chinsukolo said: I thought Awakening requires Intent/mental picture of command? So access to Endowments investiture (Breath) requires the the person to have intent and be able to imagine the object doing it. Since Lifeless can't cognate and don't think, they can't have an Intent, or 'mental picture' of an action so they can't access Endowments Investiture, thus Nightblood doesn't draw their breath and they don't die. Where as living picture Nightblood killing and think about how a sword wounds and so the intent/mental image is there and access to Investiture is opened. The reason it kills everyone / works on everyone in Warbreaker is because everyone but Drabs have 1 Breath, so the gate is opened enough for Nightblood to kill them through Investiture draw. I don't believe we ever saw a Drab try to use Nightblood. Hide contents If accurate this would suggest a non-misting could use Nightblood on Scadrial just as lifeless (sicne they can't key that Investiture), but a Ferring would be killed would be killed/corrupted and so would a Misting/Mistborn if they burned a Metal. On Roshar, anyone who can draw Stormlight would also be affected by Nightblood, but those that can't (no bond) would also remain unaffected. Still leaves Szeth to be a very interesting case, since he knows how to draw Stormlight, but currently can't since he has no Nahel Bond/Honorblade http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=1086#16 Quote LEINTON Does Nightblood rip souls out of bodies, by chance? BRANDON SANDEROSN Nightblood consumes Investiture, including the spark of life. TAGS cosmere , investiture , nightblood , If a person draws Nightblood without investiture, he will kill them to get at the investiture that makes up their spiritweb. The Breath that animates a lifeless should be no different.
The One Who Connects he/him Posted June 11, 2017 Posted June 11, 2017 6 minutes ago, Chinsukolo said: I thought Awakening requires Intent/mental picture of command? So access to Endowments investiture (Breath) requires the the person to have intent and be able to imagine the object doing it. Since Lifeless can't cognate and don't think, they can't have an Intent, or 'mental picture' of an action so they can't access Endowments Investiture, thus Nightblood doesn't draw their breath and they don't die. Where as living picture Nightblood killing and think about how a sword wounds and so the intent/mental image is there and access to Investiture is opened. From the annotations, Lifeless have some manner of cognition: Quote Vasher Fights the Guards, Then Creates a Lifeless Squirrel I wanted to show the creation of a Lifeless somewhere in this book, as I think the process is interesting. The draining of color happens in a slightly different way than in regular Awakening, though it’s similar. In this case, the creature draws color from its own body in order to come to life. The better your imagining of the Command when you make it (not the orders you give it, but the one when you give it the Breath), the more intelligent and capable of following orders the Lifeless is. Later in the book, for instance, people are surprised at how good this little squirrel is at doing what it is told. The better your visualization is when you make the Lifeless, the better it is able to understand commands. This means that they do cognate, or else your commands would be useless. (Your mental picture when giving commands to a Lifeless are irrelevant, as all you do is give it a verbal command) 8 minutes ago, Chinsukolo said: The reason it kills everyone / works on everyone in Warbreaker is because everyone but Drabs have 1 Breath, so the gate is opened enough for Nightblood to kill them through Investiture draw. I don't believe we ever saw a Drab try to use Nightblood. Hide contents If accurate this would suggest a non-misting could use Nightblood on Scadrial just as lifeless (sicne they can't key that Investiture), but a Ferring would be killed would be killed/corrupted and so would a Misting/Mistborn if they burned a Metal. On Roshar, anyone who can draw Stormlight would also be affected by Nightblood, but those that can't (no bond) would also remain unaffected. Still leaves Szeth to be a very interesting case, since he knows how to draw Stormlight, but currently can't since he has no Nahel Bond/Honorblade I completely disagree with this, as Nightblood can take the "spark of life" from anyone. This means that Nightblood should also be able to drain Lifeless, as their "spark of life" is replicated by that Breath. Quote Leinton Does Nightblood possibly rip souls out of people? Brandon Sanderson Nightblood consumes Investiture, including the spark of life. Quote Question If someone--Vasher says that Nightblood would kill him, is that just because he has this big deific Breath? Would it kill an ordinary person, like a drab? Brandon Sanderson It would suck the Breath from anybody, and if they were unable to feed it he would feed on their soul. Question So they would die. Brandon Sanderson Yes. Anybody wielding Nightblood, he will suck their soul. For too long, he will eventually, if you draw him, he will suck your soul.
Chinsukolo Posted June 11, 2017 Posted June 11, 2017 (edited) 15 minutes ago, Calderis said: http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=1086#16 If a person draws Nightblood without investiture, he will kill them to get at the investiture that makes up their spiritweb. The Breath that animates a lifeless should be no different. Not disagreeing with him consuming any investiture, including Spark of Life. Just speculating that (using the playdoh fun factory analogy) you have to have the key, blue plastic thing to access Investiture. Since the blue plastic thing for Endowment is mental/picture intent, Lifeless can't access her investiture themselves, and so Nightblood doesn't have the "gate" opened to consume the investiture. The mental image for a sword is seeing an attacked or usage or injury or wound, so soon as hes drawn in Warbreaker any sapient being can have the "mental image" (blue plastic thing" of him being used, so the gates are open and he devours their investiture. This is why I don't think he'd automatically kill someone on Scanriel because they need Allomancy to open the Investiture gate for him to swallow their Spark of life. A mental image/intent doesn't do anything there because they dont have Breath and aren't of endowment. @One Who Connects I completely disagree with this, as Nightblood can take the "spark of life" from anyone. This means that Nightblood should also be able to drain Lifeless, as their "spark of life" is replicated by that Breath. It is my opinion only, but I don't think those WoBs contradict my theory, becasue Brandon specifically mentions Breath, and my theory already addresses that. The spark of Life comment specifically mentions Investiture and the spark of life investiture everyone has. I agree Nightblood will consume them too, my point is that they have to access the Investiture first, then when they run out he'll use their spark of life. If they never access Investiture, because they down't have that planets key (mental Image + Breath, Allomany + Burn metal, Nahel Bond + Stormlight) then he won't/can't kill him. We've NEVER seen Nightblood drawn by someone without Breath (Drab or off world), and of those with Breath, we've never seen him drawn by someone who was brain-dead (Lifeless). Edited June 11, 2017 by Chinsukolo So I don't double post
Calderis he/him Posted June 11, 2017 Posted June 11, 2017 I suppose that can't be proven as everyone on Nalthis is born with a Breath. However, I strongly doubt it. I'm sure that Szeth will be able to toss Nightblood and have him do the same thing to people on Roshar as happens on Nalthis. The effects are coming from Nightblood, and he feeds on any investiture available. I don't think he'll be blocked just because the investiture of someone's spiritweb lacks the cracks needed for them to access investiture themselves.
The One Who Connects he/him Posted June 11, 2017 Posted June 11, 2017 (edited) 10 minutes ago, Chinsukolo said: This is why I don't think he'd automatically kill someone on Scadrial because they need Allomancy to open the Investiture gate for him to swallow their Spark of life. Last WoB I posted specifically includes a Drab as Nightblood draining anybody, which bypasses this Investiture gate argument. 10 minutes ago, Chinsukolo said: It is my opinion only, but I don't think those WoBs contradict my theory, becasue Brandon specifically mentions Breath, and my theory already addresses that. As he says: "if they were unable to feed it(Investiture), he would feed on their soul." Drabs and people on Scadrial are unable to feed it investiture, so it will suck their soul. That directly contradicts your investiture gate idea. 10 minutes ago, Chinsukolo said: The mental image for a sword is seeing an attacked or usage or injury or wound, so soon as hes drawn in Warbreaker any sapient being can have the "mental image" Annotations link I posted should include Lifeless under those with a mental image. They have to understand what "kill things" means, after all. Edited June 11, 2017 by The One Who Connects
Chinsukolo Posted June 11, 2017 Posted June 11, 2017 2 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said: Last WoB I posted specifically includes a Drab as Nightblood draining anybody, which bypasses this Investiture gate argument. Annotations link I posted should include Lifeless under those with a mental image. They have to understand what "kill things" means, after all. A robot can follow commands and computers can execute code, this doesn't mean they have cognitive capabilities and forma mental imagine of what they are doing. Nor does it allow for them to have an "intent" to do the thing they are doing. Lifeless receiving a command is no different then a computer or robot - it will be followed explicitly and without thought or improvisation that are attributed to cognitive capability and intent. As for your last WoB - the question specifically asked about Drab. But Brandon specifically said it would feed Breath then if unable to feed on the soul. So I was reading that as an order of presidence. No reason you can't be right and I can't be wrong, I think it's just interpretations of WoBs, and we've seen Brandon trip up on himself in WoBs before.
Calderis he/him Posted June 11, 2017 Posted June 11, 2017 @Chinsukolo I suggest you read the Warbreaker annotations. Lifeless are far more alive than people believe in book. 1
Chinsukolo Posted June 11, 2017 Posted June 11, 2017 Yeah working my way through them now after One Who Connects linked them. Didn't realize there were so many! I wish they were in the paper text as foot notes =/ In response to: 14 minutes ago, Calderis said: The effects are coming from Nightblood, and he feeds on any investiture available. I don't think he'll be blocked just because the investiture of someone's spiritweb lacks the cracks needed for them to access investiture themselves. If he doesn't need the 'gate' / 'key to access Investiture though the wielder then this would make his usage on Roshar significantly more scary since Investiture is free in the environment as Stormlight, and openly available all over the place stored in money and lighting. What crazyness might happen if Szeth draws him during a highstorm? O.o
The One Who Connects he/him Posted June 11, 2017 Posted June 11, 2017 1 minute ago, Chinsukolo said: A robot can follow commands and computers can execute code, this doesn't mean they have cognitive capabilities and form a mental image of what they are doing. Nor does it allow for them to have an "intent" to do the thing they are doing. Lifeless receiving a command is no different then a computer or robot - it will be followed explicitly and without thought or improvisation that are attributed to cognitive capability and intent. Very interesting that you bring up robots, because it doesn't refute my argument. You are correct that Lifeless receiving a Command is not that different from machines getting a command, but on a different level. They are no different in that both have to understand what you want it to do in order to do it. The difference lies in how they are programmed to understand. Machines follow lines of code, while Lifeless are comparable to a human brain(another good comparison to a robot), which has to understand your words and draw meaning from them. 6 minutes ago, Chinsukolo said: As for your last WoB - the question specifically asked about Drab. But Brandon specifically said it would feed Breath then if unable to feed on the soul. So I was reading that as an order of presidence. No reason you can't be right and I can't be wrong, I think it's just interpretations of WoBs, and we've seen Brandon trip up on himself in WoBs before. No matter, I have another WoB that says interesting things. Quote Question Could an Elantrian wield Nightblood? Brandon Sanderson It's possible but would be very dangerous - you'd have to figure out a way to connect Nightblood with a local source of Investiture. An Elantrian would have to connect to Investiture in order to not die from the soul-sucking, so I see no reason why this should not apply to everyone in the Cosmere. 2
Calderis he/him Posted June 11, 2017 Posted June 11, 2017 11 minutes ago, Chinsukolo said: If he doesn't need the 'gate' / 'key to access Investiture though the wielder then this would make his usage on Roshar significantly more scary since Investiture is free in the environment as Stormlight, and openly available all over the place stored in money and lighting. What crazyness might happen if Szeth draws him during a highstorm? O.o There's a WoB that I can't currently find that says if someone threw Nightblood into the mists he would attempt to feed on them, and they would pull away. So assuming that Stormlight is less... Sentient? Than the mists, he should be aware to feed off ambient investiture. Even if he's not able to, if Szeth can just continually reinvest, he still has a limitless amount of stormlight in that situation, and it's justifiably terrifying to consider.
Chinsukolo Posted June 11, 2017 Posted June 11, 2017 7 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said: Very interesting that you bring up robots, because it doesn't refute my argument. You are correct that Lifeless receiving a Command is not that different from machines getting a command, but on a different level. They are no different in that both have to understand what you want it to do in order to do it. The difference lies in how they are programmed to understand. Machines follow lines of code, while Lifeless are comparable to a human brain(another good comparison to a robot), which has to understand your words and draw meaning from them. No matter, I have another WoB that says interesting things. An Elantrian would have to connect to Investiture in order to not die from the soul-sucking, so I see no reason why this should not apply to everyone in the Cosmere. Thanks for pulling that up - to me that's much more clear cut then his other response. I think that also foreshadows the idea that drawing Nightblood on Roshar is also Very Dangerous, since the person wouldn't even need a Surge to Connect to Investiture (now that you and Calderis have corrected my understanding). Drawing in a Highstorm seems pretty scary.
FiveLate Posted June 11, 2017 Author Posted June 11, 2017 5 hours ago, Calderis said: There's a WoB that I can't currently find that says if someone threw Nightblood into the mists he would attempt to feed on them, and they would pull away. So assuming that Stormlight is less... Sentient? Than the mists, he should be aware to feed off ambient investiture. Even if he's not able to, if Szeth can just continually reinvest, he still has a limitless amount of stormlight in that situation, and it's justifiably terrifying to consider. Small issue with this is that the Honorblade was what was allowing him to suck stormlight previously....
Calderis he/him Posted June 11, 2017 Posted June 11, 2017 1 minute ago, FiveLate said: Small issue with this is that the Honorblade was what was allowing him to suck stormlight previously.... I know I'm not alone in thinking that won't be an issue. http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=1048#25 Quote OUTIS If an Elantrian bonded to a Seon and traveled to Roshar, would that act as a Nahel bond? BRANDON SANDERSON It would act very very similarly, yes. But it would be like… it wouldn't necesarily do the exact same things. It would be treated the exact same way, but wouldn't grant the same powers. TAGS Nightblood can bond to his wielder. He may not receive the surges like we would expect from a spren capable of the Nahel bond, but I'm sure that he will grant Szeth the ability to invest.
The One Who Connects he/him Posted June 11, 2017 Posted June 11, 2017 20 hours ago, Calderis said: There's a WoB that I can't currently find that says if someone threw Nightblood into the mists he would attempt to feed on them, and they would pull away. So assuming that Stormlight is less... Sentient? Than the mists, he should be aware to feed off ambient investiture. Here's the WoB, Quote PhantomMonstrosity Let's say some mistborn jerk tosses Nightblood into the mists. What happens? Brandon Sanderson I suspect the mists would pull away from Nightblood, though he'd try to feed on them. but it's not as clearcut as you'd think: On 5/22/2017 at 9:03 PM, The One Who Connects said: The problem with this WoB is that the user throws Nightblood into the mists. That is not pulling Investiture from peripherals that are independent of a user, but pulling from peripherals while independent from a user. This distinction could be enough to make this answer not count. [..Shadowisp replied..] Have you met anyone on this site? Nitpicks are what theories live or die by But yes, that is what I meant. Once the blade is thrown, it is not being "wielded" so it doesn't have a wielder to drain from. 1
Calderis he/him Posted June 11, 2017 Posted June 11, 2017 31 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said: Here's the WoB, but it's not as clearcut as you'd think: That thread was the only reason I knew of that WoB. Thank you.
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