Hoid is a construct, and Investiture isn’t the only magic in the Cosmere

[drsabek]

I first thought this up after re-reading Way of Kings again. There’s a scene where Wit is talking to Kaladin, and says, in reference to names, “I’ve many...I began life as a thought, a concept, words on a page. That was another thing I stole. Myself. Another time, I was named for a rock.” Nothing very telling about this, but it got me thinking, what if he was being literal about this. What if he wasn’t born human. This could explain both his longevity, but also his immunity to Shardblades.

 

It is my theory that Shardblades (dead ones) destroy Investiture, which is the power to manipulate souls in such a way that they influence the Physical Realm. A person’s Investiture is also their “soul”, and damaging/removing it has the effect of draining the person of life. This is evident on Nalthis where, giving up your Breath, the form that Investiture takes on that planet, leaves a person as a Drab, colorless, susceptible to disease, and lethargic. It is interesting to note that people who are injured by a Shardblade, but not killed, have the injured limb become pale, useless, and very much Drab-like. Based on this, I propose that Hoid does not have Investiture, therefore, making him immune to Shardblades.

 

If that’s the case, how does he have “access to all the magic systems,” as established by Words of Brandon? We’ve seen evidence of Lightweaving, Perfect Pitch, Allomancy, and so forth. I propose that he is not using Investiture to gain these effects. There may be another magic system, one that can mimic the abilities of Investiture, but is different enough to render one immune to it’s power, unless that power is used in a pure form.

 

This also answers such questions of how the 16 were able to destroy Adonalsium and why Odium was able to destroy other Sharholders without, himself, being destroyed. As seen with Ruin and Preservation, when one Shardholder tries to destroy another, they, themselves, are destroyed in the process. If, however, one had access to another power, one that didn’t feel the backlash that would come from attacking another Shard, it makes more sense.

 

Anyway, these are just some of my musings, as I contemplate the cosmere. Let me know if I'm totally wrong with this.

[Yata]

The Ruin & Preservation destruction came only by their opposite intent, other Shards haven't probably the same problem.

 

You may see it for example in Roshar, where there are Spren made by H&C Investiture or on Sel where the Dor is a merging of D&D's Investiture.

 

I have to read again your post some other times but also if Hoid is an Artificial being (and if I remember right we have a WoB who identifies him as a originally an Human), there isn't any proof or clue for another magic power other than Investiture.

[imriel452]

Hoid "being named for a rock" references a previous alias - Topaz. This is also referenced in the Letter or the Second Letter (I forget which)

[Stormgate]

The part about him stealing himself I took to mean that Hoid broke the Fourth Wall.

[Lilamal]

This would support my theory: Second entity like Adonalsium?.

[DrakeMarshall]

I am inclined to believe that wit's talking about beginning as an idea is a reference to his false identity (wit is actually hoid, and hoid's real name isn't hoid, that was the name of his master and all).

But this is still an intriguing theory, that hoid is some kind of manifest idea. The cosmere is full of sentient manifestations of ideas (shards of adolnasium and all their splinters).

[the.fulgid]

Definitely a unique idea, and much like Brandon I won't say it's impossible. But as others have mentioned, Hoid's references to his origin is a discussion in his previous identities, not a shrouded statement of his inception. His earliest appearance, chronologically, is as a human known by the name of Midius during a time when he was apprenticed to a lightweaver named Hoid. After his master died, Midius started calling himself Hoid, possibly to convince people he was the same person. Centuries later (still human), he went by the name of Topaz, which is the rock he was known for. In his current incarnation he goes by the name of Wit, "a name that references what [he] presumes to be one of [his] virtues". So, in terms of his names and identities, there isn't much which confirms he wouldn't be human. Beginning life as a thought, concept, or words on a page could just be a very mysterious way of saying "I wrote out a plan for who I wanted to be. Now I've put that plan into motion and have become that person."

 

Hoid's connection to Investiture is a different matter, however. We still don't know entirely how it works or what all it can do, so you might be onto something there. There are few of your points I'd like to touch on, though. I don't think that Investiture is directly connected to a spirit. Not in the way you mean at least. Investiture DOES connect to their spirit web, but while everyone has a spirit web, not everyone is invested. For example, on Roshar Investiture comes through Stormlight. Everyone is alive and has a soul, but only those who have bonded a spren or have an Honorblade can use that Investiture. On Nalthis it is true that everyone has a Breath, or small part of them that was bestowed by Endowment, and giving that up prevents them from using Investiture. However, they can get another Breath any time they want, it doesn't have to be their own. The spirit doesn't change when they give that up, just how much they're Invested. By comparison, if Investiture WAS directly connected to the soul and a person's life, then Allomancers would burn their souls out of existence each time they used metal.

 

As for Shardblades, they cut a living thing off from it's spirit, which DOES kill it. This is different from a Drab. While Drabs may seem lifeless, they can still move around, breath, talk, perform all normal, daily activities. In fact, unless you're paying attention it's difficult to even tell if someone is Drab at first glance. Shardblade severed limbs are quite different. They're completely dead, not able to move at all, and it's very obvious they are severed. They don't just lack Investiture, they lack life entirely. There's even less to them than an Awakened Lifeless. Also note that Hoid never said he was immune to Shardblades, just that it didn't pose him a threat. It's possible that he knows how to use Stormlight to heal severed limbs, he's also quite adept at avoiding fights. More importantly, there is the fact that he is just simply hard to kill. Not immortal, but near enough so that the idea of dying doesn't scare him much, regardless of the method. Plus he could have just been trying to convince Jasnah to not attack him.

 

Lastly, the Shards, including Odium, and not immune to the effects of others. An epigraph in either WoK or WoR (I don't remember which) says "Three of sixteen ruled, but now the broken one reigns." Something happened to Odium causing him to not be whole anymore, possibly a result of his battle with Honor, Devotion, or Dominion. Maybe all three. (As a side note, this leads me to ask the question of what happened to Cultivation if Odium now reigns over everything?) Also, the author of the Second Letter states that Odium is contained. If he had another, more powerful magic, they probably wouldn't have been able to stop him at all.

 

Overall, I think I agree that Hoid has some magic going on that might not be part of Adonalsium, or at least not in any form that can now be found under the influence of the Shards. But he's still most likely human, with only one over-arching form of magic prevailing in the Cosmere.

[Master_Moridin]

I don't think that Investiture is directly connected to a spirit. Not in the way you mean at least. Investiture DOES connect to their spirit web, but while everyone has a spirit web, not everyone is invested.

A human soul is Investiture

 

Chris_from_Warrenton

Would it be possible to Soulforge NIghtblood and change the command that was given to him when he was Invested?

Brandon Sanderson

That is possible. That would actually not be a very difficult Soulforge. The problem is, he's Invested. So reInvesting him, which is what Soulforgery is, is really hard. So you'd have to figure out how you could use Forgery on something that is already Invested. But forgery can get through some of those hoops a lot easier than some other magic systems can.

Chris_from_Warrenton

Do you have to be a willing subject to be Soulforged?

Brandon Sanderson

You do not. Working with the soul is really hard though. You have to be a supreme expert in what you're doing, because soul is Investiture

(source)

*snip* 

The piece your missing is the nature of a person's Spiritual aspect. This is similar to a Platonic idea--the idea that there's a perfect version of everyone somewhere. It's a mix of their connections to places, people, and times with raw investiture. The soul, you might say.

*snip*

(source)

[Oversleep]

@the.fulgid

I also think that Hoid may have been referencing his "stealing himself" as he stole philosophy or way of acting or personality traits (think Wayne stealing accent but on the much more grande scale). The "words on page" may refer to the fact that what pushed him to become who he is was something written.

[the.fulgid]

I'll have to ask Brandon about the relationship between soul and Investiture. The only way I can think that they're the same, or at least strongly similar, is if he uses the terms soul and spirit separately. Investiture is different in each world, but as far as we know everyone has a spirit that passes through the Cognitive realm and into the Spiritual. And on Scadrial we see that not everyone can use Preservation's form of Investiture, despite all life containing a small splintering of his power. And that's not even counting the differences between planets and Shards, those are all people on the same world. So clearly there has to be some differences.

@Oversleep:I think you are absolutely correct. Very much of who he is was likely taken from other sources. Hoid is very good at keeping his true self hidden.

[Master_Moridin]

I'll have to ask Brandon about the relationship between soul and Investiture. The only way I can think that they're the same, or at least strongly similar, is if he uses the terms soul and spirit separately. Investiture is different in each world, but as far as we know everyone has a spirit that passes through the Cognitive realm and into the Spiritual. And on Scadrial we see that not everyone can use Preservation's form of Investiture, despite all life containing a small splintering of his power. And that's not even counting the differences between planets and Shards, those are all people on the same world. So clearly there has to be some differences.

@Oversleep:I think you are absolutely correct. Very much of who he is was likely taken from other sources. Hoid is very good at keeping his true self hidden.

 

I think I see where some of the confusion might be.  Investiture as a term can apply to roughly two very different things.

 

1) Investiture as substance and power of creation.  This is the stuff souls, Breaths, Stormlight, and Shards are made of.  There's a WoB that in the Spiritual Investiture has a consistent form regardless of source.

 

trevorade (Reddit)

It has been explained that all things exists between three realms: Physical, Spiritual, and Cognitive.

I have surmised that different things "exist more" in a certain realm than another though all things have some presence in the three. Humans appear to "exist more" in the Physical realm. Spren appear to "exist more" in the Cognitive realm (Shadesmar in SA). Investiture appears to have various forms in the Physical Realm (e.g., alomantic metals, mist, stormlight).

Question 1: Does investiture have a consistent form (regardless of magic system and its Physical form) in one of the other realms?

Question 2: Vasher has shown us that he can substitue his need for Breath with another investiture (presumably Stormlight). To what extent is investiture interchangeable between magic systems?

Question 3: Is investiture finite? Hemalurgy and a Return's need to consume breath seems to show us that it can be destroyed. If it is finite, is the Cosmere's magic source doomed to the law of entropy?

Brandon Sanderson (Reddit)

1. It's consistent in the Spiritual Realm. Location isn't particularly important there.

2. Very interchangeable, but not always simple to apply.

3. Investiture can not be created or destroyed. It follows it's own version of the laws of Thermodynamics.

Joe_____ (Reddit)

So what happens to the investiture that is lost when a person is spiked and the spike isn't set in the new person immediately? Does it return to the big pool of investiture in the sky like the power from wheel of time where if its not actively being used it returns to the source?

Brandon Sanderson (Reddit)

What happens to someone's body when it's not being used by a particular person? The system is built to work like that.

(source)

 

2) Investiture as term for a magic system

 

The various ways different peoples spiritwebs/souls (Investiture(1)) are wired/composed determines the types of Investiture(2) they have access to.

 

(and sidenote, the reason some people can use Allomancy and others can't is because they have more Preservation in them than others)

[Jondesu]

Lastly, the Shards, including Odium, and not immune to the effects of others. An epigraph in either WoK or WoR (I don't remember which) says "Three of sixteen ruled, but now the broken one reigns." Something happened to Odium causing him to not be whole anymore, possibly a result of his battle with Honor, Devotion, or Dominion. Maybe all three. (As a side note, this leads me to ask the question of what happened to Cultivation if Odium now reigns over everything?) Also, the author of the Second Letter states that Odium is contained. If he had another, more powerful magic, they probably wouldn't have been able to stop him at all.

Unless there's a WoB I'm not familiar with, I didn't think we had confirmation that Odium was the Broken One.  In fact, I thought it was Honor, continuing to reign posthumously, in essence, considering his is the most significant influence on the Investiture of Roshar.

 

jW

[the.fulgid]

 

The various ways different peoples spiritwebs/souls (Investiture(1)) are wired/composed determines the types of Investiture(2) they have access to.

 

Thank you for clarifying that. I was primarily thinking of Investiture(2) during this discussion, you are correct. It's good to know that there are situations when it refers to something else as well.

 

@Jondesu: I guess that hasn't been officially confirmed. However, at the Bands of Mourning release I asked him "What does '3 of 16 ruled, but now the Broken One reigns' mean? Did the Shards on Roshar have a pact of some kind, and is there something now wrong with Odium?" He got a very devlish, Brandon Sanderson-ish smile on his face and said "That's a RAFO." So, it was not officially confirmed, and RAFO could mean a dozen different things. But that smile leads me to believe there's something true in that statement.

 

You could very well be correct that it is Honor, but I'm less inclined to believe he now reigns. It seems to me that everything happening is him grasping at straws to keep the world from falling completely apart. It feels similar to what Preservation did with the Terris prophecies and the Hero of Ages, but without the foresight to know where to place the pieces. We know Hoid uses Feruchemy to discern when and where he needs to be, and that comes from a Ruin/Preservation combo. So far Honor doesn't seem to have that ability. He doesn't know what Odium will do, or how he'll react, so he's just set up everything he can in hopes that people can figure out what to do with it in time.

[cuimhne]

Thank you for clarifying that. I was primarily thinking of Investiture(2) during this discussion, you are correct. It's good to know that there are situations when it refers to something else as well.

 

@Jondesu: I guess that hasn't been officially confirmed. However, at the Bands of Mourning release I asked him "What does '3 of 16 ruled, but now the Broken One reigns' mean? Did the Shards on Roshar have a pact of some kind, and is there something now wrong with Odium?" He got a very devlish, Brandon Sanderson-ish smile on his face and said "That's a RAFO." So, it was not officially confirmed, and RAFO could mean a dozen different things. But that smile leads me to believe there's something true in that statement.

 

You could very well be correct that it is Honor, but I'm less inclined to believe he now reigns. It seems to me that everything happening is him grasping at straws to keep the world from falling completely apart. It feels similar to what Preservation did with the Terris prophecies and the Hero of Ages, but without the foresight to know where to place the pieces. We know Hoid uses Feruchemy to discern when and where he needs to be, and that comes from a Ruin/Preservation combo. So far Honor doesn't seem to have that ability. He doesn't know what Odium will do, or how he'll react, so he's just set up everything he can in hopes that people can figure out what to do with it in time.

 

Honor has some limited ability to see into the future. On page 995 of the Kindle edition of Way of Kings, Honor says to Dalinar,

"I cannot see the future completely. Cultivation, she is better at it than I. It's as if the future is a shattering window. The further you look, the more pieces that window breaks into. The near future can be anticipated, but the distant future... I can only guess." (ellipsis in original; no text removed.)

 

I don't know if that supports or contradicts your theory, but I wanted to put it out there.

 

Also, could you tell me where you learned that Hoid uses Feruchemy to know where to go? I hadn't heard that before, although I'm admittedly very out of the loop.

[Jondesu]

Also, could you tell me where you learned that Hoid uses Feruchemy to know where to go? I hadn't heard that before, although I'm admittedly very out of the loop.

There's a WoB, but I suck at finding them. We don't know if he's a full Feruchemist or just a Luck Ferring though, I don't think.

jW

[Master_Moridin]

Here's the Hoid Feruchemy WoB
 

Mike Cockrum
Hoid is regularly around when important events take place. How does he know where to go?

Brandon Sanderson
He uses Feruchemy. Part of it that will show up in later books.
(source)

 

There's a few different theories about how he's doing it.

[Ari]

Here's the Hoid Feruchemy WoB

 

 

There's a few different theories about how he's doing it.

 

Is there? I thought we all agreed he was tapping Luck before deciding what to do...

[Master_Moridin]

Is there? I thought we all agreed he was tapping Luck before deciding what to do...

 

I've seen people suggest he's doing something weird with Connection, even more involved theories about having a plan stored in a Coppermind.  We still don't know how Luck works after all.

[IndigoAjah]

Is there? I thought we all agreed he was tapping Luck before deciding what to do...

and I have a quasi-theory as an alternative that he uses a Lerasium Coppermind to fill and then tap Destiny

[natc]

Is there? I thought we all agreed he was tapping Luck before deciding what to do...

Luck + dartboard + map is always the funniest practical theory.

[Yata]

Luck + dartboard + map is always the funniest practical theory.

I missed that one, thanks 

[CaptainRyan]

The part about him stealing himself I took to mean that Hoid broke the Fourth Wall.

This is my interpretation also.

[FirstSelector]

Hoid said that he "stole himself."  What if this is literally true, and he had to reclaim his Spiritual Identity from some sort of thief?  I don't know what mechanism would allow this, but it's not outside the range of possibilities.

[Vissy]

I always took that to mean that he stole his name and his identity, Hoid. Which, as it turns out, he actually did - from his deceased master.

[Full Metal Rithmatist]

I believe Brandon Expressed to finding the idea of Golems very interesting so ive thought for awhile hoid might be an artificial construct of some sort.