theory Hemalurgic spike in WoR?

[Bugsy he/him]

     As I reread the Stormlight Archive books, I noticed something odd about Jasnah's death. The book references a "long, thin knife" (115) that was stabbed directly through her chest, emerging through the other side. It also mentions how she was immobile on the floor as this happened. It made me think immediately of Hemalurgy, but I decided the connection was to tenuous and dismissed the thought. Later on, however, Shallan describes the event, saying " I watched them stab her straight through the heart" (438). The fact that Brandon felt the need to emphasize the fact that she was stabbed through the heart, rather than saying she had to have drown from the severity of her wounds, seems very telling of the fact that he's setting the scene for Hemalurgy to have taken place.

 

     My biggest question about this is whether or not Hemalurgy can steal the abilities of a surgebinder, as they are reliant on the gifts of spren. Even if the bond could be separated from the original holder, would it not immediately break as the spren lost its host and "died", becoming an ordinary shard blade? Also, even if the bond could be maintained beyond separation, the obtainer of the bond, as someone who killed to gain the power, is unlikely to be considered worthy of the bond and therefore would not obtain any power from it.

 

What are your guys' thoughts?  I'd love to hear some other interpretations =)

[The Sovereign he/him]

Wow, I have read WoR like 10 times now and I never picked up on this even though I have combed through pretty thoroughly for things just like this. I am picking up a signed/personalized copy of Alloy of Law to complete my Mistborn collection I guess I know what I am asking about now! Excellent catch!

Edited February 29, 2016 by Iron Eyes

[Bugsy he/him]

Wow, I have read WoR like 10 times now and I never picked up on this even though I have combed through pretty thoroughly for things just like this. I am picking up a signed/personalized copy of Alloy of Law to complete my Mistborn collection I guess I know what I am asking about now! Excellent catch!

Great! I'd love to hear what you find out

[KidWayne he/him]

My only thought is that...
 
WOR spoilers

...we know that Jasnah survives with her surgebinding abilities intact.

 

So, if this was related to hemalurgy it was a failed attempt. The questions about the nature of magic on Roshar intersects with hemalurgy are good ones though.

[Bugsy he/him]

My only thought is that...

 

WOR spoilers

...we know that Jasnah survives with her surgebinding abilities intact.

 

So, if this was related to hemalurgy it was a failed attempt. The questions about the nature of magic on Roshar intersects with hemalurgy are good ones though.

Huh, it's been awhile since I read the books, must have forgotten that.

[King's Twit he/him]

You've said you're doing a reread, so I'm going to assume that I won't be spoiling something by saying that Jasnah survived.

 

If you haven't read the Jasnah story on Tor that takes place after WoR, I would recommend reading that as well. It's not officially canon yet, but Brandon is treating it as a rough draft and has read it at multiple book signings, so I think I can assume that at least the main events of the story happened in a very similar way to how they will be portrayed in their final draft.

 

So Jasnah is alive. Hemalurgy doesn't have to kill you, but it usually does. Having a spike made from you and surviving is supposedly horrible, I believe brandon has described it as like being a drab, but much, much worse. But even if we assume that we would not be able to tell if Jasnah had one or both of her surges taken from her, in some way, by looking at her appearance and behavior in the WoR epilogue, we see in the Tor exerpt Jasnah using the Transportation Surge to get to Shadesmar (and presumably use it again to get back out), and then later use the Transformation surge to soulcast the ropes. She also communicates with Ivory, so we know that she could not have had her Nahel bond or her Surgebinding abilities taken from her through a Spiking.

Edited February 29, 2016 by King's Twit

[Jondesu he/him]

I always read it simply as "I saw something happen to her that no one could have survived." Sure, Shallan later says she was probably close to invulnerable, but she didn't realize that at the time, or assume that Jasnah had similar capabilities to heal herself.

There is certainly a strong likelihood that we'll be seeing hemalurgy in other stories, including possibly in Roshar, so I'll be keeping a close eye on this for the future.

jW

[Voidus]

Shallans also not really in a position to judge whether the blade perfectly penetrated her heart.

Aside from that Hemalurgy requires both Intent and a lot of precision, neither of which were likely present. There's also a matter of needing the right alloy and that the only metal we know for sure could be used to steal non-Scadrian traits is Atium.

[Clockwork he/him]

Well, I'm pretty sure she soulcasted that body that Shallan saw so that the assassins thought that they killed her, so maybe they did try.

[Oversleep]

I know we Sanderfans like to look for hints everywhere... but sometimes a word is just a word. Not every "cultivation" is "Cultivation". Sometimes people get stabbed through the heart and it doesn't have to be Hemalurgy.

I know, I'm Ruining it.

[DreamEternal]

Well, I'm pretty sure she soulcasted that body that Shallan saw so that the assassins thought that they killed her, so maybe they did try.

The deleted chapter on Tor makes it clear she was stabbed, but went to Shadesmar and was quickly healed by stormlight.

Plus, she can't soulcast jam yet can make a dead replica of her body?

[JVSimp]

DreamEternal, Based on the excerpt and what happens to me it makes more sense that she was laying there getting stabbed and pretending to be dead. I assume after the killers left she went to Shadesmar. At least that was how I viewed it.

[Observer]

Jasnah probably didn't hang around for all that long. She's already in Shadesmar by the time Shallan leaver her room. So yes, she likely waited for them to leave and then left immediately to heal. If there was hemalurgy being attempted here, and that's a huge if, it clearly wasn't successful if Jasnah's present condition is any indication.

[DreamEternal]

DreamEternal, Based on the excerpt and what happens to me it makes more sense that she was laying there getting stabbed and pretending to be dead. I assume after the killers left she went to Shadesmar. At least that was how I viewed it.

That was what I was trying to say. :/

[IndigoAjah he/him]

You've said you're doing a reread, so I'm going to assume that I won't be spoiling something by saying that Jasnah survived.

 

If you haven't read the Jasnah story on Tor that takes place after WoR, I would recommend reading that as well. It's not officially canon yet, but Brandon is treating it as a rough draft and has read it at multiple book signings, so I think I can assume that at least the main events of the story happened in a very similar way to how they will be portrayed in their final draft.

 

So Jasnah is alive. Hemalurgy doesn't have to kill you, but it usually does. Having a spike made from you and surviving is supposedly horrible, I believe brandon has described it as like being a drab, but much, much worse. But even if we assume that we would not be able to tell if Jasnah had one or both of her surges taken from her, in some way, by looking at her appearance and behavior in the WoR epilogue, we see in the Tor exerpt Jasnah using the Transportation Surge to get to Shadesmar (and presumably use it again to get back out), and then later use the Transformation surge to soulcast the ropes. She also communicates with Ivory, so we know that she could not have had her Nahel bond or her Surgebinding abilities taken from her through a Spiking.

 

 

If may be recalling wrongly, but didn't (Mistborn spoilers)

Sazed change the way haemalurgy works? Or does that only affect Scadrial? It seems weird that he can do that, but I thought he did.

 

Actually I'm pretty sure I'm wrong. Nevermind

Edited March 1, 2016 by IndigoAjah

[Voidus]

If may be recalling wrongly, but didn't (Mistborn spoilers)

Sazed change the way haemalurgy works? Or does that only affect Scadrial? It seems weird that he can do that, but I thought he did.

Not so far as I know, he changed Snapping but not hemalurgy.

[Clockwork he/him]

Plus, she can't soulcast jam yet can make a dead replica of her body?

The Ten Essences make up a body, and as Jasnah said, the ten essences can be easily soulcasted by anyone who can soulcast.

[Voidus]

The Ten Essences make up a body, and as Jasnah said, the ten essences can be easily soulcasted by anyone who can soulcast.

I think you're thinking of the ten foci, the essences are gasses, fire, crystal, wood, blood, metal, rock, oil, flesh.

[yurisses]

The Ghostbloods have some degree of cosmere awareness, but I doubt that hemalurgy will feature in SA at all. Yes... sometimes a pipe is just a pipe.

 

That said, Brandon said on Goodreads that if Miles survived being spiked, he could theoretically heal back his allomancy if it was spiked out of him, as gold feruchemy heals the soul--as does stormlight. (And he could probably heal back his feruchemy as well by burning a metalmind.)

Edited March 1, 2016 by yurisses

[Ari he/him]

Shallans also not really in a position to judge whether the blade perfectly penetrated her heart.

Aside from that Hemalurgy requires both Intent and a lot of precision, neither of which were likely present. There's also a matter of needing the right alloy and that the only metal we know for sure could be used to steal non-Scadrian traits is Atium.

 

Do we know that for sure? Atium is certainly a wildcard for Scadrian abilities but it might actually be that it's limited to Allomancy and Feruchemy. (It *probably* isn't, but...)

 

The Intent part is pretty key though. Unless Odium starts manipulating people to spike other people, it's pretty much going to need worldhoppers who've met someone unscrupulous (like say, the Set) in order for hemalurgy to start being practiced on other worlds.

[NeutroniumAlchemist he/him]

Great catch, this sounds interesting as we know Brandon has said Hemalurgy could be important/a big deal in the future cosmere, perhaps this is a subtle foreshadow? 

But i have a question regarding your spren-die statement:

Even if the bond could be separated from the original holder, would it not immediately break as the spren lost its host and "died", becoming an ordinary shard blade? 

I was under the impression that a Nahel-bonded spren died whenever the human broke whatever oath that person swore to strengthen the bond, not just a simple death of the KR. If that were the case, then every bonded spren would eventually die...

[Bugsy he/him]

Great catch, this sounds interesting as we know Brandon has said Hemalurgy could be important/a big deal in the future cosmere, perhaps this is a subtle foreshadow?

But i have a question regarding your spren-die statement:

I was under the impression that a Nahel-bonded spren died whenever the human broke whatever oath that person swore to strengthen the bond, not just a simple death of the KR. If that were the case, then every bonded spren would eventually die...

What I meant by this is that because the spren wouldn't be bound to the KR, but rather to whoever received the spike, wouldn't its new host not have sworn the oaths, basically resulting in the same effect as if the KR had broken them? In both cases, the oath is invalidated, but I suppose it could be argued that the actual process of breaking the oath caused the sprens' deaths rather than the end result of invalidation

Edit: Apparently HTML doesn't work very well here

Edited March 2, 2016 by Bugsy6912

[Dragon314 he/him]

     As I reread the Stormlight Archive books, I noticed something odd about Jasnah's death. The book references a "long, thin knife" (115) that was stabbed directly through her chest, emerging through the other side. It also mentions how she was immobile on the floor as this happened. It made me think immediately of Hemalurgy, but I decided the connection was to tenuous and dismissed the thought. Later on, however, Shallan describes the event, saying " I watched them stab her straight through the heart" (438). The fact that Brandon felt the need to emphasize the fact that she was stabbed through the heart, rather than saying she had to have drown from the severity of her wounds, seems very telling of the fact that he's setting the scene for Hemalurgy to have taken place.

 

     My biggest question about this is whether or not Hemalurgy can steal the abilities of a surgebinder, as they are reliant on the gifts of spren. Even if the bond could be separated from the original holder, would it not immediately break as the spren lost its host and "died", becoming an ordinary shard blade? Also, even if the bond could be maintained beyond separation, the obtainer of the bond, as someone who killed to gain the power, is unlikely to be considered worthy of the bond and therefore would not obtain any power from it.

 

What are your guys' thoughts?  I'd love to hear some other interpretations =)

Okay(deep breath)

 

DO NOT READ IF YOU HAV NOT FINISHED WORDS OF RADIANCE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

 

 

 

 

 

Jasnah isn't dead.

[DrakeMarshall he/him]

So in regard to KR dying... I don't think that kills the spren, otherwise that would have been mentioned. Maybe a bonded spren whose radiant dies will just bond a new person?

 

In regard to hemalurgy... I think I made a note in my copy when I saw that too. It is an intriguing idea. While it isn't supremely likely, that could totally have been a failed attempt at hemalurgy. If anybody on Roshar would know about hemalurgy, it would be the ghostbloods (and one of their members bears a certain similarity to inhabitants of southern Scadrial...)

[Jondesu he/him]

Okay(deep breath)

DO NOT READ IF YOU HAV NOT FINISHED WORDS OF RADIANCE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Jasnah isn't dead.

Interestingly, I believe I remember a WoB saying it could be possible to

survive a spiking if you have the ability to heal the spiritual damage, which we know from Kaladin is possible with Stormlight

That could change all of our assumptions about what happened.

jW