The Official Thread of Relationships

[Orlion Blight he/him]

I feel I should offer a counterpoint: I abandoned many toxic beliefs in large part because they were ridiculed. This should not distract from Twi's point, I merely note that no method of illuminating the dark minds of our time is universal, though there are some common characteristics. The paramount characteristic: a willingness to share ideas and improve on them. Twi was open to sharing her ideas and allowing others to share theirs, as was I. I do not see Twimom doing the same, and any discussion with her or like individuals would be a tedious, irritating exercise in futility.

And that is where you need to evaluate your friend. It's not so much, "Does she have an open mind" but "Does she allow other viewpoints to exist around her?"

[soyperson]

41 minutes ago, ShadowLord_Lith said:

I have no doubts nor feelings of disbelief towards the absolute validity of your statement.

Thank you, by the way, bleeder. You've helped me avoid some of the mistakes that people have made with you. I don't think I've accidentally ( or purposefully for that matter) insulted someone based on their sexuality or religion since I heard you guys complain about the injustices done to you. Thank you so much for that.

The Shard is a learning experience for everyone. *thumbs up* 

Edited September 22, 2016 by bleeder

[Orlion Blight he/him]

To give a more practical approach to relationships, my latest text to my girlfriend:

Spoiler

The cat whispers to me of a sunken city... Iä! Eä! The Goat with a Thousand Young! To bypass her is to prove myself worthy to sign my name in blood upon the pages of the Dark Man's Book in the Courts of Chaos where demon sultans pipe away on eldritch instruments to keep the Blind Idiot God aslumbered...

 

[Oversleep]

2 hours ago, Kaymyth said:

Heh.  I think "heretical" is a bit mild for what Twi's parents would call my belief system. 

2 hours ago, TwiLyghtSansSparkles said:

It is.  

Right, isn't heresy going against the teachings? I mean, a Christian could call heretic a Christian who went against some dogma, but a person who follows another religion would be a dissenter, right?

Then pagan beliefs... I think Twiparents would choose the word "infidel" or "heathen".

(And now please tell me whether any of the words I used is offensive as dictionaries usually don't include that kind of information )

Offtopic: anytime I hear the word "infidel" I immediately start hearing this in my head:

Spoiler

Quote

" Curse him! Curse the Christian King and his army of infidels! They go against the will of God, and must be made to pay! Everywhere they ride, they leave only suffering in their wake. They say it is a crusade. A crusade for what? Ignorance? Violence? Madness? We must resist! We must fight them in any way we can! "

It's from Assassin's Creed (the first one). Those street preachers had too little variety of dialogue so I will continue to remember it for years.

 

Edited September 22, 2016 by Oversleep

[TwiLyghtSansSparkles she/her]

1 minute ago, Oversleep said:

Right, isn't heresy going against the teachings? I mean, a Christian could call heretic a Christian who went against some dogma, but a person who follows another religion would be a dissenter, right?

Then pagan beliefs... I think Twiparents would choose the word "infidel" or "heathen".

(And now please tell me whether any of the words I used is offensive as dictionaries usually don't include that kind of information )

Offtopic: anytime I hear the word "infidel" I immediately start hearing this in my head:

  Hide contents

It's from Assassin's Creed (the first one). Those street preachers had too little variety of dialogue so I will continue to remember it for years.

 

It's not really a matter of correct or incorrect terminology here. Twiparents aren't really concerned with accuracy; if I told them that "heathen" can only be applied to followers of the Norse gods (if I have my facts straight, and I might not) Twimom would just shrug or make a crack about how "you always were anal retentive" and go on using "heathen" incorrectly. For them, it's not a matter of choosing the word that fits so much as it is choosing the word that sounds the biggest and scariest. 

[Zathoth]

11 minutes ago, Orlion Determined said:

To give a more practical approach to relationships, my latest text to my girlfriend:

  Hide contents

The cat whispers to me of a sunken city... Iä! Eä! The Goat with a Thousand Young! To bypass her is to prove myself worthy to sign my name in blood upon the pages of the Dark Man's Book in the Courts of Chaos where demon sultans pipe away on eldritch instruments to keep the Blind Idiot God aslumbered...

 

I can confirm that women like eldritch horrors.

[Assassin in Burgundy he/him]

12 hours ago, TwiLyghtSansSparkles said:

Sorry, bleeder, but little wilson is right on this one. I say this as someone who used to be very much like the girl Assassin in Burgundy described. 

You're newer to this site, so you haven't had the dubious pleasure of following the Twimom and Twidad Saga in real time, so I don't know how much you know, but suffice it to say that they are very prejudiced people. They believe that homosexuality is a choice (and a sinful one at that), that the earth was created in six literal days and that anyone who says otherwise is a heretic destined for hell, and other things that I won't go into here because summing up all of their twisted theology and dogma would take more words than I care to spend on them.

Because I was raised by these people, I was raised with these beliefs. I wasn't taught that I could believe whatever I wanted; I was taught that if I disagreed with my parents, I was a heretic. One of my sharpest memories was made when I was eleven, and I brought up evolution to my mom. She gave me a few pat answers, and when I challenged them (I don't remember how; I think it was something simple like "but how do you know for sure?") her eyes grew sad, and she said "That's heresy, but I still love you." 

It would be years before I questioned her beliefs again. 

For years I took all of my parents' beliefs as truth. Homosexuality is a sin? Absolutely. Argue it with anyone who says otherwise, because if you don't, you are denying God by your silence. Argue creationism, and ignore anything vaguely reminiscent of evolution, because any teaching that isn't a literal six-day creation story is heresy. But more than that, I was taught that I could essentially do no wrong when it came to arguing my beliefs. If I changed someone's mind, then they were receptive to what God had to say through me. If I made them angry, then it was because they had "hardened their hearts" toward God, not because of anything I had to say or how I said it. When people were disgusted with what I had to say, I believed it was because I was truly doing the right thing. 

So what broke me out of that? The answer is simple: Kindness. 

It started on this site, in one of the Question threads. The topic of evolution came up, and I stated my beliefs in creationism. These people were my friends, and things had been extremely civil, so I was as non-confrontational as I could possibly be. I expected hate, but I received civility. It was the first creation-evolution debate I'd seen that hadn't ended in virtual bloodshed. 

And it got me thinking. How did I know creationism was true? Kobold believed that God used evolution to create the universe, and he was the most Christlike person I'd met. Voidus believed the universe evolved independent of a deity, and he was kinder and more accepting of me than my own parents. Kaymyth showed me more forgiveness and protectiveness than anyone I'd met in my parents' denomination. Every single one of those people held a belief system that my parents would call heretical. Every single one of those people should have, by my parents' dogma, hated me simply for my beliefs, and yet they took me in and sheltered me from parents I had thought were my closest allies. 

And you know what happened to all of those poisonous beliefs that I had clung to so bitterly? 

I left them behind. 

This would not have happened without the kindness I was shown. If Kobold and Voidus and Kaymyth had coldly rejected me, if they had laughed at my beliefs and pushed me aside, I would still believe that evolution was heresy and homosexuality was a choice. I'd still be in denial about my own orientation. I'd be unable to enjoy Welcome to Night Vale for its pro-LGBT themes. I'd be trapped in stasis, so to speak, and I wouldn't be a pleasant person. 

Rejection might shield you from beliefs you find unsavory, but it won't change the people who hold them. And the people who hold those beliefs are not your enemy. Those poisonous ideas are your enemy—not only because they pose a threat to you, but because they are killing the people who hold them from the inside out. 

Spoiler

     He listened with wonder. Storms. Why wasn't this woman broken, truly broken? She described herself that way, but she was no more broken than a spear with a chipped blade-and a spear like that could still be as sharp as a weapon as any. He preferred one with a score or two on the handle. A spearhead that had known fighting was just... better than a new one. You could know it had been wielded by a man fighting for his life, and that it had remained sure and not broken. Marks like these were signs of strength.

-Words of Radiance, chapter 74.

 

Edited September 23, 2016 by Assassin in Burgundy

[soyperson]

16 minutes ago, Assassin in Burgundy said:

  Hide contents

     He listened with wonder. Storms. Why wasn't this woman broken, truly broken? She described herself that way, but she was no more broken than a spear with a chipped blade-and a spear like that could still be as sharp as a weapon as any. He preferred one with a score or two on the handle. A spearhead that had known fighting was just... better than a new one. You could know it had been by a man fighting for his life, and that it had remained sure and not broken. Marks like these were signs of strength.

-Words of Radiance, chapter 74.

 

That quote describes my response to that whole thing. I do not, however, have a copy of WoR at hand.

[Assassin in Burgundy he/him]

It's when

Spoiler

Shallan and Kal are stuck in the chasms and it's during the highstorm.

 

[Darkness Ascendant he/him]

I hate these sudden spikes of activity, I'll be on for hours, and nothing interesting happens, but when I'm away WHABAM! 3 more storming pages of comments. I wish I was bothered reading them (jk, I was actually bothered, and I did read it :/)

I go to an all-boys school, and being gay, it's really funny how we react. We just pretend your joking.

[TwiLyghtSansSparkles she/her]

29 minutes ago, Cognizantastic said:

Using disproven Freudian "psychology" (more like baseless conjecture) to ridicule someone? That's sad.

Oh, and I want to say sorry for a comment I made several months ago about wanting to read a compiled version of your Twimom/Twidad saga. That was insulting of me to the magnitude of your situation, just a tactless thing to say. I apologize for that.

No worries. You didn't know, and I'm fairly open about it anyway.  

[Kaymyth she/her]

7 hours ago, Oversleep said:

Right, isn't heresy going against the teachings? I mean, a Christian could call heretic a Christian who went against some dogma, but a person who follows another religion would be a dissenter, right?

Then pagan beliefs... I think Twiparents would choose the word "infidel" or "heathen".

(And now please tell me whether any of the words I used is offensive as dictionaries usually don't include that kind of information )

Offtopic: anytime I hear the word "infidel" I immediately start hearing this in my head:

  Reveal hidden contents

It's from Assassin's Creed (the first one). Those street preachers had too little variety of dialogue so I will continue to remember it for years.

 

Infidel doesn't really insult me.  It's not a compliment, either, it's just...sorta there.

7 hours ago, TwiLyghtSansSparkles said:

It's not really a matter of correct or incorrect terminology here. Twiparents aren't really concerned with accuracy; if I told them that "heathen" can only be applied to followers of the Norse gods (if I have my facts straight, and I might not) Twimom would just shrug or make a crack about how "you always were anal retentive" and go on using "heathen" incorrectly. For them, it's not a matter of choosing the word that fits so much as it is choosing the word that sounds the biggest and scariest. 

Technically, "Heathen" applies to practitioners of Norse religion if it's capitalized.  The lowercase version has a more generalized definition.

Everything's got a name.  Of course, I can't tell you how many times I've said that I'm Kemetic to other pagans and they've given me that empty polite smile that says they have absolutely no idea what that means.

[Delightful]

And liking someone and believing what they believe are totally different. 

For me as a Jew, paganism is literal idol worship I need to stay away from. Doesn't mean I don't respect Kaymyth or consider her to be awesome and kind and crazy and a wonderful friend. 

And I know my religion frowns upon homosexuality (well, acting on it anyway, feelings aren't forbidden), but I also know rejecting people who don't fit the neat little straight box leads a lot of people to mental illness and depression and suicide, and human life is the most important thing there is. So I'm supposed to disapprove but hell if I'm gonna treat anyone like a lesser human being for something they can't help. 

Life is complicated and I don't think black and white thinking helps anyone. This way, everyone wins.  

[Oversleep]

48 minutes ago, Delightful said:

Life is complicated and I don't think black and white thinking helps anyone.

Blue and orange is way better

And yeah, balancing your worldviews can be tricky. On one hand, I think one thing, on the other, the system of beliefs I follow says another thing and then of course human interaction dictates yet another thing. Good luck with all that.

Edited September 23, 2016 by Oversleep

[soyperson]

9 hours ago, Oversleep said:

Blue and orange is way better

And yeah, balancing your worldviews can be tricky. On one hand, I think one thing, on the other, the system of beliefs I follow says another thing and then of course human interaction dictates yet another thing. Good luck with all that.

It's also difficult being a gay Christian in the American South. I try to keep my views and beliefs in order, but it's like singing in a choir of tone-deaf people. Seems simple at first, but as the melody gets more and more complex, you lose track of where you are because all the people around you are just droning on and on.

Good Trope, by the way, Oversleep. I tend to swing toward "necktie" on that graph.

Edited September 23, 2016 by bleeder

[Claincy he/him]

9 hours ago, Delightful said:

And liking someone and believing what they believe are totally different. 

For me as a Jew, paganism is literal idol worship I need to stay away from. Doesn't mean I don't respect Kaymyth or consider her to be awesome and kind and crazy and a wonderful friend. 

And I know my religion frowns upon homosexuality (well, acting on it anyway, feelings aren't forbidden), but I also know rejecting people who don't fit the neat little straight box leads a lot of people to mental illness and depression and suicide, and human life is the most important thing there is. So I'm supposed to disapprove but hell if I'm gonna treat anyone like a lesser human being for something they can't help. 

Life is complicated and I don't think black and white thinking helps anyone. This way, everyone wins.  

We need more of exactly this in the world  

There are plenty of things people choose to do that I disagree with, think are wrong and/or run counter to my beliefs. I won't support or encourage those actions but that doesn't change my belief that everyone should be treated with love and respect.

[+Slowswift he/him]

18 hours ago, Delightful said:

And I know my religion frowns upon homosexuality (well, acting on it anyway, feelings aren't forbidden)

Mine too. Wish more people understood that, instead of just screaming "ZOMG YOU HATE GAYS" in the general direction of Salt Lake.

[Eccentric Hero he/him]

21 hours ago, Darkness Ascendant said:

I hate these sudden spikes of activity, I'll be on for hours, and nothing interesting happens, but when I'm away WHABAM! 3 more storming pages of comments. I wish I was bothered reading them (jk, I was actually bothered, and I did read it :/)

I go to an all-boys school, and being gay, it's really funny how we react. We just pretend your joking.

Spoiler

[Bugsy he/him]

I just read the entire thread, and it was quite possibly the best procrastination I've ever undertaken. Wilson, you've put into words what I've been unable to (which you tend to do quite often, honestly), and Twi, despite having super limited contact with you on this forums, I can tell just from these posts that you're a genuinely good person. Thank you for giving me a perspective into your side of the story. I actually know someone in a similar situation in real life, and you've caused me to reconsider my opinions about him.

[Darkness Ascendant he/him]

You my dear sir, deserve an upvote!

[Mistrunner]

5 hours ago, Slowswift said:

Mine too. Wish more people understood that, instead of just screaming "ZOMG YOU HATE GAYS" in the general direction of Salt Lake.

Yes. As a Mormon I don't drink alcohol, but that doesn't mean I hate everyone who drinks. I believe that it's bad, but I also very strongly believe in not being a jerk. I'm not going to treat you badly because your beliefs are different from mine.

[Darkness Ascendant he/him]

I'm a muslim, and well, alot of things are frowned upon, but your choice is your choice.

[PantsForSquares he/him]

9 minutes ago, Mistrunner said:

I believe that it's bad, but I also very strongly believe in not being a jerk. I'm not going to treat you badly because your beliefs are different from mine.

Honestly, I wish more people had the second part figured out.

[Mistrunner]

Just now, PantsForSquares said:

Honestly, I wish more people had the second part figured out.

I think most people do, but the ones who don't tend to be the loudest. 

[Delightful]

5 hours ago, Darkness Ascendant said:

I'm a muslim, and well, alot of things are frowned upon, but your choice is your choice.

"A lot of things are frowned upon" yup I relate to that a whole lot. Islam and Judaism really do have a lot in common. 

(I've mentioned this before. I knew I was gonna love Kamala Khan when she's in a shop looking at the 'delicious infidel meat' she knows she won't eat. It just got better from there.  )