Long Game 16: The Empty Throne Part 2: The Catacombs

[STINK]

Clarified for him maybe not me. That's not contributing. Contributing would be giving something out. Not taking in. Also him because he seems far more active then the rest not contributing.

Also none of this is contributing from my point of view.

Posted by IrulelikeSTINK on Today, 01:29 PM in Sanderson Elimination

The only thing I'm seeing is an SE Spartan and some good-looking quotes

Posted by IrulelikeSTINK on Today, 12:55 PM in Sanderson Elimination

Oh, also I told Kip that I would be doing this and I don't break my promises.

Kipper.

Posted by IrulelikeSTINK on Today, 12:48 PM in Sanderson Elimination

Why would Kip not get all that sweet info? He's the "Information Broker"

Posted by IrulelikeSTINK on Today, 11:15 AM in Sanderson Elimination

Hi. I was asleep last night.

#389571LG16: The Empty Throne Part 2: The Catacombs

Posted by IrulelikeSTINK on 19 January 2016 - 11:06 AM in Sanderson Elimination

Is there a vote tally?

So I got voted on by phatt for no reason, made a tired post of '??????????' and went to school. Come back from school, not much really happened. That's a shame. Like the discussion with (basically) Mark v Meta. So yes, I'm clearly here but am not discussing much, 'cause there really isn't much to say that hasn't been said/if I disagreed with hasn't been argued against.

#388882LG16: The Empty Throne Part 2: The Catacombs

Posted by IrulelikeSTINK on 18 January 2016 - 12:18 AM in Sanderson Elimination

???????????

These are asking for information. He himself is not contributing anything to the thread.

Posted by IrulelikeSTINK on Today, 03:07 PM in Sanderson Elimination

Then why are you doing an item thing with Phatt?

Posted by IrulelikeSTINK on Today, 02:44 PM in Sanderson Elimination

So seeing as some people want to keep Meta alive, why don't we Snitch on HS?

Posted by IrulelikeSTINK on Today, 02:34 PM in Sanderson Elimination

So two Snitchs talking to Kip is bad and stuff but two people following Clanky is okay?

Posted by IrulelikeSTINK on Today, 02:07 PM in Sanderson Elimination

How does seeing someone do something mean they don't have the CL side role?

Stupid me, must've forgot to always stay on topic and not have much fun.

[Hellscythe]

Stupid me, must've forgot to always stay on topic and not have much fun.

Perfect non-blue related excuse. I like it. Great Traitor tactics.

[STINK]

That's because blue is for OOC stuff, like how Orlok was using it.

[twelfthrootoftwo]

Kipper, can you confirm what I asked Phatt?

 

Will retract my vote on Meta until I see his defense. However, I did receive a note that said he is a Blind Beggar, so if other Snitches would Scan him and send the note to someone besides me to verify this information or disprove it, that would be much appreciated.

There's a contradiction here. Interesting.

 

Lord GM, I think the thread has some questions:

• Meta claimed that a Snitch note about a Compulsive Liar could contain a mix of true and false information. Is this true?
• If yes, is it therefore possible that single pieces of information about a Compulsive Liar (eg a Beggar scan) could be true?
• Do Snitch notes contain side roles?

Edited January 22, 2016 by twelfthrootoftwo

[TheMightyLopen]

Hello people, and welcome to the Day. It's good to be alive. I'll be the first to spice things up by saying that I received two (!) Snitch notes during the Night. The first, I will keep private for now, but the second had a very interesting result. It said that Meta was an evil Beggar. So: Meta. And good job second Snitch. Night 1 didn't turn out bad at all.

 

Now the second Note is clearly from a different Snitch. It says Meta is an evil Beggar. So I'm voting for Meta. If Meta turns out not to be evil (which I doubt will happen), then either there's another Blind Snitch who tried to Scan Meta, there's a Mirror in play, or Meta is a Compulsive Liar (which we won't know anyway). That's all I got. Now everyone get Meta up there.

 

Will retract my vote on Meta until I see his defense. However, I did receive a note that said he is a Blind Beggar, so if other Snitches would Scan him and send the note to someone besides me to verify this information or disprove it, that would be much appreciated.

 

And I was ninja'd like three times...

 

Emphasis mine for all 3 posts

 

Okay, so going back on Kippers posts, we see he firstly says that the note he received says "Meta is an evil Beggar." Then, in his last post, he states that the note told him "Meta is a Blind Beggar." So unless Kipper thinks Blind people are evil , he forgot to mention that part of the information for some reason.

 

Okay, so let's unbox this crazy situation, shall we?

First off, as other people have stated, I do not think that this situation was handled very well. In a game with multiple ways to either redirect or to get false information, Kip really shouldn't have just accepted the initial read as fact and then blurted it out in thread. The fact that he did just accept it at face value is disconcerting in the first place.

 

It also doesn't help us, even if I actually was a Traitor. Let's go ahead and assume that Kip's information was accurate for a second (it isn't, but I'll get to that). We've only had one full cycle, almost exactly, before Kip revealed his information. That's not a lot of time to be able to look for possible connections to other players and who I might be defending or attacking. Sure, I always come out of the gate swinging in these games, so there's typically something from the first day, but it's not a lot and I had been busy with other duties for basically the entire night turn. If I was a Traitor, by calling me out at the very beginning of the second day, you can be guaranteed that I'm not going to give away any additional information on who the rest of my team would be and I'd spend the rest of the time trying to sow as many false trails as possible. 

 

So even if Kip's information was accurate, this entire situation would still be a bust for the village and I would've expected Kip have already considered these things before posting. 

 

As far as why his information is false, I asked Alv about the Compulsive Liar side role last night to try to get to the bottom of this. The role itself reads, "Whenever someone tries to find out your role, faction or actions that you have taken, they will be told lies." I wanted to find out about whether or not that meant that all of them had to be lies or if the lies could be jumbled with the truth. This is important because I am, indeed, a Beggar and there was no way for Kip to have learned that without it coming from a role of some sort as I had not revealed to anyone yet. Alv confirmed for me that it could be just one or two pieces of information as well as all of them being false.

 

As such, I believe Kip when he says that he received a Snitch note that said that I am an evil Beggar (though I don't understand why the Snitch's decided to both trust Kip in the first place) and this makes a few of the other possible redirection scenarios even more unlikely. I believe in Occam's Razor when it comes to stuff like this and a lot of the other possibilities are just a little too convoluted for them to be realistic; not for them to also get my role correct. 

 

So I do believe that I am the proud owner of not just one side role (I'll keep the other as a secret until a later date, thank you very much), but two and one of the two is the Compulsive Liar. It's the only thing that makes sense other than an incredibly complicated plot. And while I'd be incredibly flattered if the Traitors went to such extremes to try to get me killed, I don't think they'd waste that many resources so early to make it happen. 

 

To answer your question, Hellscythe, I targeted Clanky last night. I wanted to check up on him and make sure that his decision to play along with my RP was not just a way to get me to overlook him. And for everyone's information, he did not wind up targeting anyone last night. 

 

You can lynch me if you like, but you'll be setting yourselves back quite a bit and then you'll still be unsure about whether Kip is a Traitor or not. So you'll gain very little, if not actually losing some, from confirming that I am telling the truth. 

 

EDIT: Calm down, Hellscythe. It takes some time to type!

 

Oh, and I do agree that sending both Snitches back at me would be a waste of resources. Let the Traitors have to waste a kill on me as a known entity rather than us basically wasting an entire night on me. It only takes one to be able to get a result different than Kip (due to the rule explanation of Compulsive Liar that I stated above) and I'd rather die than see us lose an entire night to confirm me and then let the Traitors kill me. 

 

Emphasis mine(on both accounts)

 

Here Meta responds to Kippers claim of Meta being an "evil Beggar" rather than a "Blind Beggar" and claims to have a side role, but that he wants to keep it secret. The wording which Meta used makes me believe that Meta didn't see Kippers post. At first I thought that Meta may have been ninja'd by Kipper as they posted fairly close to each other and Meta's post was pretty long, but an hour and a half is kinda stretching it for that to have been the case, and he even made an edit to respond to those who could have potentially ninja'd him. So I think Meta may not have seen Kippers post because of the mod-queue thing for Kipper. So, Meta, could you tell us whether you have the "Blind" side role, or not? (Please don't troll me for asking you a question. I'm sure there's a troll answer in there somewhere just screaming to come out.  )

 

Then there's the fact that Phatt claims to have gotten a note about Ada stating that Ada is a Snitch. Not a Blind Snitch. So if Ada is telling the truth about being a Blind Snitch, and Phatt is telling the truth about his note, then Kipper can't be telling the truth about his note on Meta I don't think(at least not the part about Meta having the "Blind" side role.).

 

Meta: Claiming Beggar with a side role(unknown). Targeted Clanky, who supposedly didn't target anyone. Hellscythe claimed Beggar and claimed to have targeted Meta and saw that Meta targeted Clanky.

Kipper: Claiming to have received two Snitch notes. ???- ??? and  Meta- "evil Blind Beggar?"

Adavantos: Claims Blind Snitch.

Phattemer: Claims to have received a Snitch note about Ada. Ada- "loyal Snitch"

 

So, yeah. I'm not sure what all of this means, but it's certainly odd. It would be nice if we got some answers before the Day Turn ends. I don't know how wise lynching Meta, of all people, would be when there's this much doubt in the situation.

 

I was planning on searching, but if I feel like I need to vote, I'll do so instead of searching. (Just because I said that doesn't mean you guys have to force me to vote so that you can search instead of you voting.  ) (Also, if you plan on searching, and you put a vote down in thread, you really need to reveal that.)

[twelfthrootoftwo]

In which I try to explore all possibilities with the roles we know (I'm 98% sure there's stuff missing here; this situation has become ridiculously complex).

Relevant claims:

·         Kipper received a snitch note about Meta

·         The snitch note said Meta was a Traitor Blind Beggar

·         Meta is a Beggar

·         Meta targeted Clanky

·         HS is a Beggar

·         HS targeted Meta and saw him target Clanky

·         Phatt received a snitch note about Adavantos

·         The snitch note said Adavantos was Loyal and did not contain a side role

Unsolved problems:

·         Why did Kipper reveal (so early)?

·         Why do Kipper's snitch note and Meta's role claim match?

·         Why do Meta's claimed target and HS' scan match?

·         Why do Phatt and Kipper's notes not match?

 

Kipper telling truth about note's contents

Kipper revealed early because he was excited, as claimed. (I can't think of a reason for Traitor Kipper to reveal Traitor Meta when he could easily have hidden the note's contents.

 

                Snitch scan on correct target

                                Meta an evil Beggar: Why would Meta then claim Beggar? Claiming a different role would make a false Compulsive Liar claim more natural. This possibility has him trying an IKYK against that line of reasoning, but in that case I would expect a teammate to have brought it up by now.

                                Meta a Compulsive Liar: Meta lying about being a Beggar (hiding an important role? this would be unusual from Meta IMO)
                                OR [requires potential mixed information in snitch note AND (potential single true information - then everything works out, but this ruling doesn't strike me as likely - OR HS lying, presumably to get Meta lynched)]

 

                Snitch scan on wrong target

                                Snitch is Blind: Random luck sent it to the Traitor beggar, or Meta lying about being a beggar.

                                Traitor redirect: Meta claimed to someone (unlikely based on his earlier post), and the traitors redirected the scan to the appropriate team member.

               

 

Kipper lying

Kipper is trying to frame Meta and get him lynched.

 

                Snitch scan exists

                                Kipper received a note giving him Meta's role (and presumably side role), and lied to the thread about its alignment. Kipper claimed early aiming to close out a quick lynch. Still raises questions around the conflict with Phatt's note.

 

                Snitch scan doesn't exist

                                Kipper got lucky/unlucky with his fake (this is a crazy plan, not likely)

                                OR Meta claimed (also unlikely)

 

There doesn't seem to be any scenario which doesn't rely on unlikely chance or strange decisions. I propose we keep Meta and Kipper alive for the moment. Maybe the Snitch who targeted Meta should reveal to someone they trust so they can tell the thread whether they're blind. If they send notes to a variety of people, we can also confirm that the note wasn't invented.

 

Kynedath has caught my eye; they seem to not be doing much beyond noncommittal defences of others (which are a great tool to hide as an Eliminator).

[Kynedath]

Kynedath has caught my eye; they seem to not be doing much beyond noncommittal defences of others (which are a great tool to hide as an Eliminator).

My defenses are non-committal because 1) I have mid-terms coming up in like three days and I need to study, 2) I am applying for a pilot's license scholarship and I need to study for that, 3) This is effectively my second game (I am not counting QF12 because  I lasted one day and really did nothing of import) so I am still learning about different eliminator strategies and tactics and how to tell them apart, and 4) it seems to me that I do better during the later game, when I can focus on one or two people instead of having to figure in hundreds of different factors. All I really do early game is observe and when I need to, I flail around trying to figure out who to vote for. I promise to be doing more later on, but since nobody has died yet, I have an extremely large number of variables to consider coupled with limited information. Granted, this is from the one other game that I truly played, but it is still viable.

Edited January 22, 2016 by Kynedath

[Kipper]

Twei, thanks for pointing that out. Saying Meta was a Blind Beggar was purely a typo, as the word "Blind" had been floating around in my head. The note said Meta was an evil Beggar. I won't edit the posts, just so the intervening ones will make sense, but rest assured, the Note simply said that Meta was a Beggar. My bad.

[phattemer]

Well now we're not even lynching Meta, so I'll give up my chance at an item, and I strongly suggest that others do the same. Two votes on someone is nowhere near enough to be sure they'll wind up dead.

[Mark IV]

Okay guys, I would just like to say this publicly, before the situation grows a bit too complicated.

I am a Blind Snitch.

Yes, that means it was my note that went to Kipper. I did originally intend him as my snitch note receiver, and my snitch target was meta.

I'll admit. I targeted meta because he went all aggro on me D1. So, I just wanted to make sure he was villager.

I targeted Kipper because I have heard that he is the information hub, and so, is good at handling information IMHO. Also, we talked about it in the night. I told him I would snitch a random person, and he would out the result. Seems it has gone out of hand.

That's about it.

|Yield to points of information|

EDIT: Meta, don't you start tunneling on me again. I've had quite enough of that D1.

Edited January 22, 2016 by Mark IV

[STINK]

I was right? I WAS CONTRIBUTING!

[Kipper]

Okay guys, I would just like to say this publicly, before the situation grows a bit too complicated.

I am a Blind Snitch.

Yes, that means it was my note that went to Kipper. I did originally intend him as my snitch note receiver, and my snitch target was meta.

I'll admit. I targeted meta because he went all aggro on me D1. So, I just wanted to make sure he was villager.

I targeted Kipper because I have heard that he is the information hub, and so, is good at handling information IMHO. Also, we talked about it in the night. I told him I would snitch a random person, and he would out the result. Seems it has gone out of hand.

That's about it.

|Yield to points of information|

THANK you. I was hoping you would reveal sooner or later, because if you didn't, I was going to out you.

 

@Hellscythe

I understand your frustration with Stink, but remember that we're in this to have fun too, k?  This isn't atypical of him for a playstyle, and everybody plays differently.

Edited January 22, 2016 by Kipper

[Hellscythe]

Good luck tonight protective roles. I believe in you.

 

Edit: darn you kipper and your mod queue! stop ninjaing me.

 

It's not that he can't have fun. It's that he's being active without contributing or helping the village in any way. That's an actual Traitor tactic. It has nothing to do with me or fun in general. I never said he couldn't have fun. Go have all the fun you want. But if it's something that looks evil I'm not going to apologize for calling you out on it.

Edited January 22, 2016 by Hellscythe

[STINK]

I targeted Kipper because I have heard that he is the information hub, and so, is good at handling information IMHO. Also, we talked about it in the night. I told him I would snitch a random person, and he would out the result. Seems it has gone out of hand.

 

 

Now I'm on desktop, I just need to say my thoughts on this sentence. NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO.

Don't give out information because someone has a reputation for being an information hub (which I have not heard / payed attention to) because that rep is what people want you to think, as I'm sure Kip was happy with having that reputation. 

When he is an eliminator, I'm sure he loves his reputation for being a hub of information, which HE MIGHT BE. 

Also, you said yourself that you thought he was good at handling information, which tbh, I have not seen this cycle. Don't forget he just said that he was going to out you.

I could say more on this, but to summarise. DON'T DO STUFF BECAUSE OF REPUTATION. THAT IS BASICALLY FOR THE ELIMS AND PROT ROLES ON N1.

[Mark IV]

@STINK Thanks for the heads up, even though it may have been a bit too late.

But, another way to look at it is that Kipper would have had to reply with the result of the Snitch, else I would have outed myself and him anyways.

On the other hand, if he is lying, then, so could every other person I send the information to. It's a risk I have to take early in the game.

Plus, now, we know that there is an evil Beggar somewhere...

[STINK]

So, I would be very happy if no-one else revealed their role. The elims probably have at least half our roles by now, as people have been revealing in PMs as well. 

[Clanky]

THANK you. I was hoping you would reveal sooner or later, because if you didn't, I was going to out you.

 

 

So  Kipper, you knew all along that the scan came from a blind snitch but you didn't seem to think that it was important enough to mention at any point? I understand not revealing it at the beginning or else you wouldn't have gotten any usable reaction from the reveal sure. But we have spent all day discussing this but you never thought to say "by the way, that note was totally from a blind snitch". You needn't have outed Mark as the snitch but by waiting you forced him to come out and now everyone knows his role and you could've easily prevented that. 

 

Meta

 

Edit: Vote colour

Edited January 22, 2016 by Clanky

[Hellscythe]

So, I would be very happy if no-one else revealed their role. The elims probably have at least half our roles by now, as people have been revealing in PMs as well. 

On the contrary I think it'd be best if everyone revealed their roles since the eliminators already have our information seeking roles. They're most likely going to target us regardless. But if we as a village have the information of role distribution it will be much easier to find out who the evil team actually is while making it difficult for the evil team to stay hidden. As a bonus we would also know the roles of all of the eliminators. Also at least one person on the eliminator team is going to have to lie assuming they have a Body Snatcher. If we can catch them doing that that's one less eliminator we have to worry about and 2-3 more bodies that aren't demolished.

Edited January 22, 2016 by Hellscythe

[Kipper]

So  Kipper, you knew all along that the scan came from a blind snitch but you didn't seem to think that it was important enough to mention at any point? I understand not revealing it at the beginning or else you wouldn't have gotten any usable reaction from the reveal sure. But we have spent all day discussing this but you never thought to say "by the way, that note was totally from a blind snitch". You needn't have outed Mark as the snitch but by waiting you forced him to come out and now everyone knows his role and you could've easily prevented that. 

 

Meta

No. He didn't tell me he was a Blind Snitch. He said that he was a Snitch, nothing else. In fact, he didn't tell me he was a Snitch until the very last  few messages of our PM, about an hour before the rollover, when I was busy talking with other people, so saying we "talked about it" is rather disingenuous. I didn't know that he was Blind, which is another reason why I revealed the note so early.

How could I have prevented that?

1. Mark says, I am a Snitch, and that he is going to Snitch someone to me. He explicitly says, "Out this result in the thread."

2. I receive note.

3. Note says, Meta is evil Beggar (again, sorry for the typo where I said Blind Beggar).

4. I out note.

 

From my perspective, what would you rather me do?

Wait for the Snitch to come out and say, "Oh btw, I Snitched Kipper and told him to out the result, and he hasn't yet. I suspect him for that?"

Not out the note, and then later say, "Oh yeah guys, that Note that I got D1? Yeah, it said Meta was an Evil Beggar. No need to suspect me for that haha. I just decided to wait on it?"

Or some other thing that would get me even more suspicion if I did?

 

There's not a whole lot of options for me here. Perhaps I should have waited a little longer, but honestly, I feel like you guys would find it a lot more suspicious if I waited to out the Note.

 

TL;DR 

Mark did not say that he was a Blind Snitch. I did not know that he was a Blind Snitch.

He told me explicitly to out the note.

What I did is the best way to out the Note without accruing more suspicion on myself.

 

@Stink I'm hardly the "information hub" in this game. That's Ada. People were telling him everything, including items and roles, before they had information saying he was good.

[Clanky]

No. He didn't tell me he was a Blind Snitch. He said that he was a Snitch, nothing else. In fact, he didn't tell me he was a Snitch until the very last  few messages of our PM, about an hour before the rollover, when I was busy talking with other people, so saying we "talked about it" is rather disingenuous. I didn't know that he was Blind, which is another reason why I revealed the note so early.

How could I have prevented that?

1. Mark says, I am a Snitch, and that he is going to Snitch someone to me. He explicitly says, "Out this result in the thread."

2. I receive note.

3. Note says, Meta is evil Beggar (again, sorry for the typo where I said Blind Beggar).

4. I out note.

 

From my perspective, what would you rather me do?

Wait for the Snitch to come out and say, "Oh btw, I Snitched Kipper and told him to out the result, and he hasn't yet. I suspect him for that?"

Not out the note, and then later say, "Oh yeah guys, that Note that I got D1? Yeah, it said Meta was an Evil Beggar. No need to suspect me for that haha. I just decided to wait on it?"

Or some other thing that would get me even more suspicion if I did?

 

There's not a whole lot of options for me here. Perhaps I should have waited a little longer, but honestly, I feel like you guys would find it a lot more suspicious if I waited to out the Note.

 

TL;DR 

Mark did not say that he was a Blind Snitch. I did not know that he was a Blind Snitch.

He told me explicitly to out the note.

What I did is the best way to out the Note without accruing more suspicion on myself.

 

@Stink I'm hardly the "information hub" in this game. That's Ada. People were telling him everything, including items and roles, before they had information saying he was good.

 

Sorry the way I read it was you were going to out him as being a blind snitch if he didn't soon. The wording seemed to imply that you knew everything Mark had posted. Kipper. 

 

EDIT: I'm going to put my vote back on Meta then. We know there is a traitor beggar, Meta is a beggar, he was scanned by a blind snitch as a beggar and that has a 50% chance of being correct. 

Edited January 22, 2016 by Clanky

[STINK]

I'm not annoyed with Kipper or Ada, but more the people that give them good info without any sort of trust now.

[Mailliw73]

Kipper, what exactly does the note entail? Role, alignment, color?

Edited for vote

Edited January 22, 2016 by Mailliw73

[Kipper]

Kipper, what exactly does the note entail? Role, alignment, color?

"Player x is a Destroyer of Worlds."

No side roles were mentioned. Name, role, and the role was colored. I saw both green (for the first Note) and red, so that would appear to be standard format.

Hellscythe: Trust me, I'm not exactly satisfied with the mod queue either.

Stink: No one really told me any useful information except Ada and Mark. At least a few people blatantly lied to me, but at least I know that now.

[Mailliw73]

So, Ada, how did you know the format of the notes? Kipper.

[Alvron]

• Meta claimed that a Snitch note about a Compulsive Liar could contain a mix of true and false information. Is this true?

If yes, is it therefore possible that single pieces of information about a Compulsive Liar (eg a Beggar scan) could be true?

Do Snitch notes contain side roles?

• The Compulsive Liar will always lie.  It might only be one thing or it could be two or three..... So yes

Yes

No