Long Game 16: The Empty Throne Part 2: The Catacombs

[Orlok Tsubodai]

Ada, it has nothing to do with juggling two - or even three (despite not being involved in conversation, I am following the AG), but more to do with the fact that I've been at a family funeral today.

I fully intend to make a contribution as soon as I'm home - I'm currently checking the forum with patchy mobile internet whilst it's not my turn to drive.

[Hellscythe he/him]

Meta come back! Where'd you go? We need a defense!

[Amanuensis he/him]

Ada, it has nothing to do with juggling two - or even three (despite not being involved in conversation, I am following the AG), but more to do with the fact that I've been at a family funeral today.

I fully intend to make a contribution as soon as I'm home - I'm currently checking the forum with patchy mobile internet whilst it's not my turn to drive.

 

Ah, of course. We discussed that last night. My only point was to get more people talking. Sorry if I seemed to be pressuring you.

[Metacognition he/him]

Okay, so let's unbox this crazy situation, shall we?

First off, as other people have stated, I do not think that this situation was handled very well. In a game with multiple ways to either redirect or to get false information, Kip really shouldn't have just accepted the initial read as fact and then blurted it out in thread. The fact that he did just accept it at face value is disconcerting in the first place.

 

It also doesn't help us, even if I actually was a Traitor. Let's go ahead and assume that Kip's information was accurate for a second (it isn't, but I'll get to that). We've only had one full cycle, almost exactly, before Kip revealed his information. That's not a lot of time to be able to look for possible connections to other players and who I might be defending or attacking. Sure, I always come out of the gate swinging in these games, so there's typically something from the first day, but it's not a lot and I had been busy with other duties for basically the entire night turn. If I was a Traitor, by calling me out at the very beginning of the second day, you can be guaranteed that I'm not going to give away any additional information on who the rest of my team would be and I'd spend the rest of the time trying to sow as many false trails as possible. 

 

So even if Kip's information was accurate, this entire situation would still be a bust for the village and I would've expected Kip have already considered these things before posting. 

 

As far as why his information is false, I asked Alv about the Compulsive Liar side role last night to try to get to the bottom of this. The role itself reads, "Whenever someone tries to find out your role, faction or actions that you have taken, they will be told lies." I wanted to find out about whether or not that meant that all of them had to be lies or if the lies could be jumbled with the truth. This is important because I am, indeed, a Beggar and there was no way for Kip to have learned that without it coming from a role of some sort as I had not revealed to anyone yet. Alv confirmed for me that it could be just one or two pieces of information as well as all of them being false.

 

As such, I believe Kip when he says that he received a Snitch note that said that I am an evil Beggar (though I don't understand why the Snitch's decided to both trust Kip in the first place) and this makes a few of the other possible redirection scenarios even more unlikely. I believe in Occam's Razor when it comes to stuff like this and a lot of the other possibilities are just a little too convoluted for them to be realistic; not for them to also get my role correct. 

 

So I do believe that I am the proud owner of not just one side role (I'll keep the other as a secret until a later date, thank you very much), but two and one of the two is the Compulsive Liar. It's the only thing that makes sense other than an incredibly complicated plot. And while I'd be incredibly flattered if the Traitors went to such extremes to try to get me killed, I don't think they'd waste that many resources so early to make it happen. 

 

To answer your question, Hellscythe, I targeted Clanky last night. I wanted to check up on him and make sure that his decision to play along with my RP was not just a way to get me to overlook him. And for everyone's information, he did not wind up targeting anyone last night. 

 

You can lynch me if you like, but you'll be setting yourselves back quite a bit and then you'll still be unsure about whether Kip is a Traitor or not. So you'll gain very little, if not actually losing some, from confirming that I am telling the truth. 

 

EDIT: Calm down, Hellscythe. It takes some time to type!

 

Oh, and I do agree that sending both Snitches back at me would be a waste of resources. Let the Traitors have to waste a kill on me as a known entity rather than us basically wasting an entire night on me. It only takes one to be able to get a result different than Kip (due to the rule explanation of Compulsive Liar that I stated above) and I'd rather die than see us lose an entire night to confirm me and then let the Traitors kill me. 

Edited January 21, 2016 by Metacognition

[STINK he/him]

Why would Kip not get all that sweet info? He's the "Information Broker"

[Hellscythe he/him]

Metacognition you do not have the Compulsive Liar side role. Are there any other answers?

 

Edit: Other than this
"It is possible that not all roles are in game.  You will not be told if that is the case or which ones are missing. It is also possible that there are hidden roles and/or items.  :P" - Alvron

Edited January 21, 2016 by Hellscythe

[Guest]

First off, as other people have stated, I do not think that this situation was handled very well. In a game with multiple ways to either redirect or to get false information, Kip really shouldn't have just accepted the initial read as fact and then blurted it out in thread. The fact that he did just accept it at face value is disconcerting in the first place.

 

It also doesn't help us, even if I actually was a Traitor. Let's go ahead and assume that Kip's information was accurate for a second (it isn't, but I'll get to that). We've only had one full cycle, almost exactly, before Kip revealed his information. That's not a lot of time to be able to look for possible connections to other players and who I might be defending or attacking. Sure, I always come out of the gate swinging in these games, so there's typically something from the first day, but it's not a lot and I had been busy with other duties for basically the entire night turn. If I was a Traitor, by calling me out at the very beginning of the second day, you can be guaranteed that I'm not going to give away any additional information on who the rest of my team would be and I'd spend the rest of the time trying to sow as many false trails as possible. 

 

So even if Kip's information was accurate, this entire situation would still be a bust for the village and I would've expected Kip have already considered these things before posting. 

Sorry. Like I mentioned in an edit to one of my posts above,

1. I was excited to get a guilty read from a Snitch on the first day.

2. I figured that if I mentioned the Note later in the day, I would be suspected for it for no reason.

 

Again, sorry for outing it. I probably shouldn't have done that without thinking about things further, but I felt that it needed to be out so everyone could discuss what to do, see who defends Meta, etc. Obviously I'm going to be suspected for this no matter what, and later in the game, if it comes out that I held back info on an Eliminator, that's gonna look really bad on me. See my lynch in LG15 for an example of when I was lynched for being too closely involved with an Eliminator.

I'm still not sure what to think about Meta, but some of the scenarios proposed are enough to make me keep my vote off.

 

@Stink: Yeah, basically.

@Hellscythe: How do you know?

[STINK he/him]

Oh, also I told Kip that I would be doing this and I don't break my promises.

 

Kipper.

[Hellscythe he/him]

I scanned Meta last night and Alvron said he targeted Clanky. Metacognition does NOT have the Compulsive Liar side role.

[Metacognition he/him]

Metacognition you do not have the Compulsive Liar side role. Are there any other answers?

 

 

It is the only explanation that makes any sense to me unless Kip is lying about receiving a Snitch note that said that I am a Traitor. He very well could have still gotten a note that said that I was a Loyal Beggar and decided to lie about it, claiming that it said that I was a Traitor instead, but as others have pointed out, that would be very risky for him. Especially now, if you have a way to confirm that I don't have Compulsive Liar. 

 

The Mirror or the Street Performer only redirect actions, so it's unlikely that they would also get my role correct and I highly doubt Kip guessed at that. 

 

So either I have Compulsive Liar or Kip is lying and, as I said, unless you have a way to confirm that I don't have Compulsive Liar, this just seems too dangerous of a plan to try for this early. 

EDIT: Ninja'd. >.<

Edited January 21, 2016 by Metacognition

[Guest]

It is the only explanation that makes any sense to me unless Kip is lying about receiving a Snitch note that said that I am a Traitor. He very well could have still gotten a note that said that I was a Loyal Beggar and decided to lie about it, claiming that it said that I was a Traitor instead, but as others have pointed out, that would be very risky for him. Especially now, if you have a way to confirm that I don't have Compulsive Liar. ..

...

So either I have Compulsive Liar or Kip is lying and, as I said, unless you have a way to confirm that I don't have Compulsive Liar, this just seems too dangerous of a plan to try for this early. 

Also, HS could be lying, or there could be yet another Blind Snitch. I'm not lying about the Note. I have no reason to lie, because it doesn't look like we're getting Meta lynched anyway. Nobody wants to anymore, and I have more votes than he does.

[Mailliw73 he/him]

Why would Kip not get all that sweet info? He's the "Information Broker"

Hey! That's me. Kipper's the young and upcoming apprentice to my ways. (Granted, I've slacked off in the past couple games and I'm trying to teach PM safety, but people only listen to it in regards to me, not Ada or Kipper.)

[STINK he/him]

The only thing I'm seeing is an SE Spartan and some good-looking quotes

[Amanuensis he/him]

 

I scanned Meta last night and Alvron said he targeted Clanky. Metacognition does NOT have the Compulsive Liar side role.

 

HS, are you claiming Beggar too, then?

 

Meta, do you have a response to this other than: 

 

EDIT: Ninja'd. >.<

 

Also, HS could be lying, or there could be yet another Blind Snitch. I'm not lying about the Note. I have no reason to lie, because it doesn't look like we're getting Meta lynched anyway. Nobody wants to anymore, and I have more votes than he does.

 

You're paying attention to the votes, right?

 

(3) Meta: Kipper (1), Clanky (1), HS (1),

(1) Kipper: Adavantos (1), Stink (1),

(1) Burnt: Adavantos (2), 

[Guest]

 

 

(3) Meta: Kipper (1), Clanky (1), HS (1),

(1) Kipper: Adavantos (1), Stink (1),

(1) Burnt: Adavantos (2), 

 

I retracted my vote on Meta earlier, but yes, and I thought HS had voted for me. My mistake.

[Hellscythe he/him]

Unless there's another role that scans for actions taken, yes.

[STINK he/him]

How does seeing someone do something mean they don't have the CL side role?

[Amanuensis he/him]

How does seeing someone do something mean they don't have the CL side role?

 

Because it would tell Hellscythe Meta followed someone else, but before Hellscythe announced he was a Beggar Meta announced he was a Beggar too who followed Clanky. Hellscythe got the same result, which means it's impossible for Meta to be a Compulsive Liar.

 

The only other possibility in favor of Meta being good is that this other Snitch is Blind just like me, which means they chose to scan Meta but the coin flip changed whose role and alignment was actually revealed. But even then, the odds of that are so astronomically low because that would mean out of 18 players, the Traitor Beggar just happened to be chosen to replace Meta's information.

 

Unless someone else has an explanation, I think I'm going to have to agree with lynching Meta... though I still think this was too easy, and am concerned that even if Meta turns out to be a Traitor that either Kipper or Hellscythe are on his team and intentionally throwing him under the bus to gain trust.

Edited January 21, 2016 by Adavantos

[Guest]

Because it would tell Hellscythe Meta followed someone else, but before Hellscythe announced he was a Beggar Meta announced he was a Beggar too who followed Clanky. Hellscythe got the same result, which means it's impossible for Meta to be a Compulsive Liar.

Ada, there's any number of things that could be possible. Suppose someone redirected Meta's action. Then Meta wouldn't have actually visited Clanky, and HS could have still gotten the same read if Meta is a Compulsive Liar.

After hearing all of this, though, I'm coming to the conclusion that either Meta is lying or we have another Blind Snitch.

[STINK he/him]

So two Snitchs talking to Kip is bad and stuff but two people following Clanky is okay?

[Amanuensis he/him]

Well one Snitch (me) is talking to Kip (I'm literally talking to everyone), but I did not send in the order for him to receive my note. It was just random chance that lead to him getting my note. Unless he's lying about receiving it and someone else comes forward to say that they received a player's alignment and role last night. As for the other, I have no idea why they chose to send their note to Kipper, let alone why they chose to scan Meta. I was informed by a third party last night that another Snitch had planned on scanning me to make sure I was being honest about my alignment and role, but apparently that didn't happen unless there's three of us running around.

 

As for your last statement, Stink, two people didn't follow Clanky. Hellscythe followed Meta and was told he targeted Clanky. Meta followed Clanky and was told Clanky targeted no one.

Edited January 21, 2016 by Adavantos

[STINK he/him]

So seeing as some people want to keep Meta alive, why don't we Snitch on HS?

[Kynedath]

I am honestly not completely sure what I think about his situation. There are a large number of roles and accusations and speculations going around and making things confusing. Nevertheless, from what I have seen of his gameplay, Meta seems to be lacking in a defense. I know that there isn't that much that he can say if he is innocent, but he still lacks that passion and aggression that he had when attacking Mark.

 

That being said, I don't feel that there is enough evidence for me to vote for him. I will be thoroughly ecstatic if it turns out that he is an eliminator and we lynch him, but I'm not quite ready to believe that a snitch just wound up finding Meta guilty on night one. Kipper might be an eliminator trying to trick us, he could be an innocent who was the victim of a hidden side role, I don't know, but I do know that I want to watch him for a while.

[Amanuensis he/him]

So seeing as some people want to keep Meta alive, why don't we Snitch on HS?

 

Because deciding openly who we're going to snitch on leaves it open to interference. Let's refer to AG2 real quick where the Spiked killed off every player that came out as being scanned good by the Seeker. What's to stop them from just killing whoever we say we are about to scan so that we waste a night? In addition to that this game has redirection abilities, so if the Traitors have a Street Performer then they could just change whoever the Snitch targets to another player, meaning that when the note is received it would say the player who the order was put in on (in this scenario, Hellscythe) but the results would be the alignment and role of the player it was redirected to (let's say you, Stink). Understand why that's a problem?

[phattemer]

Well, in case anyone still believes that was a WGG, I got a note confirming Adavantos' loyalty.

Also, given the proof we've had so far, I'll also vote for Meta.

 

Also, just so that the day doesn't wind up "Meta. Meta. Meta. Meta. Meta.", here is exactly what joining the Making Useful Items Out Of Parts Conglomerate entails:

You send me or Adavantos the parts you have. (except duct tape, which can't make anything)

We combine them with other people's parts and tell you when we make something using your parts. You, and everyone who contributes a part, get to vote on how the device is used, and then we'll have someone send in the order for who you agree on. If you can't agree, we'll alternate turns.

One more thing: if everyone searches for an item, then nobody will get lynched. Since I'm planning to search, I'll retract my vote so as to not confuse the vote talliers. (This is very stream-of-consciousness-esque, but that's generally my style.)