Long Game 16: The Empty Throne Part 2: The Catacombs

[Hellscythe he/him]

Wait Alvron, @the second bullet point

 

Compulsive Liar:  Your desire to appear more important than you really are has gotten out of hand.  You cannot stop lying.  Whenever someone tries to find out your role, faction or actions that you have taken, they will be told lies.  

 

So the bold part of this role is not accurate? Because if they WILL be told lies then giving out 1 lie and 1 truth still holds true to "will be told lies" but if it's only 1 piece of information, that information WILL be a lie according to the bold.

 

So yeah, what I'm asking is if the bolded part is accurate or not.

[Alvron]

Whoops.  I really need to read things more than once.  Thanks Hell.

 

A beggar scan that targets a CL and only has one piece of information will be a lie.

[Guest]

Whoops.  I really need to read things more than once.  Thanks Hell.

 

A beggar scan that targets a CL and only has one piece of information will be a lie.

In case that's confusing, though, Alv also clarified for me that the information is randomized. So if a Snitch checks a Compulsive Liar with the power of Pancakes, and the rolelist has ten powers, there's a 1/10 chance that the read will still be Pancakes. Is that correct, Alv, or am I still misreading your clarification?

[Elbereth she/her]

@STINK Thanks for the heads up, even though it may have been a bit too late.

But, another way to look at it is that Kipper would have had to reply with the result of the Snitch, else I would have outed myself and him anyways.

On the other hand, if he is lying, then, so could every other person I send the information to. It's a risk I have to take early in the game.

Plus, now, we know that there is an evil Beggar somewhere...

And what if Kipper hadn't gotten the note? What if someone else had? You'd out yourself for nothing. Did you think about that, huh?

On the contrary I think it'd be best if everyone revealed their roles since the eliminators already have our information seeking roles. They're most likely going to target us regardless. But if we as a village have the information of role distribution it will be much easier to find out who the evil team actually is while making it difficult for the evil team to stay hidden. As a bonus we would also know the roles of all of the eliminators. Also at least one person on the eliminator team is going to have to lie assuming they have a Body Snatcher. If we can catch them doing that that's one less eliminator we have to worry about and 2-3 more bodies that aren't demolished.

What the storms makes you think this is a good idea? Why would knowing a half-true role distribution be helpful? The eliminators may know a good deal, sure. But they don't know everything, and we really shouldn't tell them free of charge.

In fact, that seems quite like an eliminator plan, Hellscythe.

[STINK he/him]

May we have a vote tally? Anyone?

Edited January 22, 2016 by IrulelikeSTINK

[Hellscythe he/him]

 

And what if Kipper hadn't gotten the note? What if someone else had? You'd out yourself for nothing. Did you think about that, huh?

What the storms makes you think this is a good idea? Why would knowing a half-true role distribution be helpful? The eliminators may know a good deal, sure. But they don't know everything, and we really shouldn't tell them free of charge.
In fact, that seems quite like an eliminator plan, Hellscythe.

I can see where you're coming from. You guys probably don't do this often. But I've played SE often in other forms and I've seen multiple cases where everyone will role claim Day One and lynch Traitors every single day until they were all dead. It forces the Traitors to lie. Right now the Traitors don't have to do anything. They can just sit around, make a couple questions, act like they're being active, then when they're called out on it complain that you're not letting them have fun.

 

They already have most if not all of our information seeking roles. I can almost guarantee we will be attacked. If we all reveal it will force the eliminators to lie or give away their roles. On top of that with their new information they can't change their tactics(or they can but that'd be better for us). The most valuable assets to the Village team are already revealed. On top of that it gives the Snitches and Beggars a more informational based choice on who they should scan. And if they find something out they have an easier time catching someone in a lie whereas before that person would've not revealed and there would be no lie to catch them in in the first place.

 

TL;DR

You probably haven't done this before, and I know humans are afraid of what they don't understand, but trust me, I believe this is a good idea.

 

 

Edited January 22, 2016 by Hellscythe

[Alvron]

In case that's confusing, though, Alv also clarified for me that the information is randomized. So if a Snitch checks a Compulsive Liar with the power of Pancakes, and the rolelist has ten powers, there's a 1/10 chance that the read will still be Pancakes. Is that correct, Alv, or am I still misreading your clarification?

Correct, however the alignment of said Pancakes would be the lie.

[STINK he/him]

 

 

I can see where you're coming from. You guys probably don't do this often. But I've played SE often in other forms and I've seen multiple cases where everyone will role claim Day One and lynch Traitors every single day until they were all dead. It forces the Traitors to lie. Right now the Traitors don't have to do anything. They can just sit around, make a couple questions, act like they're being active, then when they're called out on it complain that you're not letting them have fun.

 

They already have most if not all of our information seeking roles. I can almost guarantee we will be attacked. If we all reveal it will force the eliminators to lie or give away their roles. On top of that with their new information they can't change their tactics(or they can but that'd be better for us). The most valuable assets to the Village team are already revealed. On top of that it gives the Snitches and Beggars a more informational based choice on who they should scan. And if they find something out they have an easier time catching someone in a lie whereas before that person would've not revealed and there would be no lie to catch them in in the first place.

 

TL;DR

You probably haven't done this before, and I know humans are afraid of what they don't understand, but trust me, I believe this is a good idea.

 

 

 

 

You use humans as if you were not one, so clearly, HS is an Epic! (oh wait. wrong game....)

What are these other forms?

Okay, so we all force the traitors to lie, which means that nobody will lie as inno, and then we give the prot roles a really hard time? Or do we elect you as our un-official leader?

One of the Snitches/Beggar might be evil, so they've already got away with their lie.

I've played SE in only one other form similar to this one (as it was actually on a forum), this strat you propose did not work out as well as you say it does.

I too, can guarantee that someone will be attacked in the night.

The most valuable assets to the team being Snitches and Beggars? Is that what you're saying?

[Hellscythe he/him]

You use humans as if you were not one, so clearly, HS is an Epic! (oh wait. wrong game....)

What are these other forms?

Okay, so we all force the traitors to lie, which means that nobody will lie as inno, and then we give the prot roles a really hard time? Or do we elect you as our un-official leader?

One of the Snitches/Beggar might be evil, so they've already got away with their lie.

I've played SE in only one other form similar to this one (as it was actually on a forum), this strat you propose did not work out as well as you say it does.

I too, can guarantee that someone will be attacked in the night.

The most valuable assets to the team being Snitches and Beggars? Is that what you're saying?

Mission Accomplished.

[STINK he/him]

Mission Accomplished.

 

So you want me to post more stuff like the above?

[Hellscythe he/him]

If by "more stuff" you mean contributing your thoughts on matters at hand then... Yeah.

[STINK he/him]

You not even going to try and answer my questions?

[Hellscythe he/him]

Sure why not.

 

You use humans as if you were not one, so clearly, HS is an Epic! (oh wait. wrong game....)

What are these other forms?

Okay, so we all force the traitors to lie, which means that nobody will lie as inno, and then we give the prot roles a really hard time? Or do we elect you as our un-official leader?

One of the Snitches/Beggar might be evil, so they've already got away with their lie.

I've played SE in only one other form similar to this one (as it was actually on a forum), this strat you propose did not work out as well as you say it does.

I too, can guarantee that someone will be attacked in the night.

The most valuable assets to the team being Snitches and Beggars? Is that what you're saying?

What are these other forms? Me and my floor have gotten together every Wednesday night since I started going to USU to play Werewolf.

 

Okay, so we all force the traitors to lie, which means that nobody will lie as inno, and then we give the prot roles a really hard time? Or do we elect you as our un-official leader?  Innos can lie. Anyone can lie. But having a lie is better than nothing at all. It gives you some foundation to work up from. The protection roles already have a hard time. We have 4 claimed information seeking roles. In my opinion those roles are the Traitor's top priority. I said nothing about being a leader. I never have been, and never wanted to be this entire game.

 

One of the Snitches/Beggar might be evil, so they've already got away with their lie. Nobody got away with anything. The game is still ongoing.

 

I've played SE in only one other form similar to this one (as it was actually on a forum), this strat you propose did not work out as well as you say it does. You probably haven't done this before, and I know humans are afraid of what they don't understand. I will however admit it's easier to lie over text than it is to lie with spoken words.

 

I too, can guarantee that someone will be attacked in the night. Not what I meant. By "we" I meant the information seeking roles.

 

The most valuable assets to the team being Snitches and Beggars? Is that what you're saying? Yes. Although I'd argue the Mortician is fairly important as well.
 

Edited January 22, 2016 by Hellscythe

[Mailliw73 he/him]

You not even going to try and answer my questions?

It sounds like his intention wasn't actually to do the reveals, but to get you to talk about more game-related matters.

Ada, I'd like your answer and Phatt, I'd like to know if you can confirm Kipper's statement about how the notes appear.

[Hellscythe he/him]

It sounds like his intention wasn't actually to do the reveals, but to get you to talk about more game-related matters.

Ada, I'd like your answer and Phatt, I'd like to know if you can confirm Kipper's statement about how the notes appear.

Very wrong. I still think the reveals are an excellent idea.

[Amanuensis he/him]

So, Ada, how did you know the format of the notes? Kipper.

Combination of questions I asked the GM upon receiving my role and context clues.

When I received my role it said Blind Snitch.

When Phatt revealed that it did not say Blind, I wrote in a paragraph just that.

Redact first half of above line meant to say when phatt revealed my alignment.

Phatt then corrected me clarifying that it did not say Blind.

I assumed that he did not correct the color because that was right.

I then asked clarification from Kipper as I noticed the inconsistency too.

Therefore I did not know the "format of the notes."

Evidence from thread:

I know I said I was going to bed but I've been having a lot of trouble sleeping lately, so here I am. I will try to keep this short though since I really do need to fall asleep. Because this is the only part directly relevant to me, I'll go ahead and explain why I did what I did. If you look at the last three games where I ended up being a villager (MR9 LG15b, AG2) I was killed relatively early. Both in MR9 and AG2 I was killed on the second night either because the eliminators thought I was paying more attention to the game than others which was bad for them or because I had been the first player scanned (presumably for the same reason, though I never asked the Seeker why they chose me). In LG15b, the doc considered me for a target until I revealed that I was a Voidbringer (which was a lie) so that I could get as involved in that game as I wanted to without fearing an attack. They could have called my bluff, but fortunately they did not, expecting that even if I was lying I was being protected by an Elantrian (which was exactly what happened for a few cycles until he revealed to me and I told him to protect someone else). Anyway, in this game compared to all of those, I got a role that I believed was valuable enough that dying early would do an extra amount of harm to the village (as of course, at the time, I had no idea how many Snitches there were, let alone if they could be trusted) and so I made sure to make it painfully obvious what I was. My intent? To draw the intention of both a Bodyguard and the Traitors, which culminated into exactly what happened last night; a full cycle spent where everyone who had a role could use it without any of my teammates dying. Am I worthy of suspicion? Certainly. It's a bold move that few players make, let alone often, though I suspect it might become a thing considering how well it ended up working. But as was just stated, phattemer received a note from a Snitch saying that I am indeed a Blind Snitch and therefore any suspicion accrued on me is wasted. If you want to keep thinking I'm evil, go ahead, but I promise there's other players more worthy of being analyzed if your end goal truly is to find the Traitors.

It didn't tell me you were blind, actually. I think that it doesn't reveal side roles.

So just primary role and color, then? Very well.

Kipper, can you confirm that both the note you received about HMM and Meta did not include side roles?

Also,Meta. Why?

Kipper received a note from a Blind Snitch revealing Meta was an evil Beggar.

Meta admitted to being a beggar but not evil: blamed Compulsive Liar or unknown role.

Hellscythe revealed that Meta does not have Compulsive Liar due to accurate tracking result.

Meta insists he isn't evil and tries to blame it on an unknown.

Chances of Blind Snitch switching Meta's scan to an evil Beggar is 1/19 (~5%).

I don't like those odds and expressed suspicion of him Day 1.

If Meta dies and turns out evil, HS + my Beggar are essentially cleared.

If they continue to produce accurate results then we know they didn't just reveal his.

Clanky would be soft cleared as well, because why follow a teammate?

If Meta dies and turns out good, we now are aware of two other Beggars worthy of scrutiny.

Edited January 22, 2016 by Adavantos

[Orlok Tsubodai]

In the interests of trying to tie down a lynch, I'm going to add my vote to Meta.

Right now, frankly, I have no particularly strong opinion on his alignment - and suspect I'd need to reread everything several times to do so - but given the discussion, the information we get on living players from Meta's death is worth it. Sorry Meta...

[Guest]

Ada, Mark just claimed to be a Blind Snitch. So until a real Snitch Scans Meta, we should probably not lynch him.

My insistence on lynching was back when I thought Mark was a real Snitch. Now that information has changed.

[Metacognition he/him]

Okay, fine. You guys are going to kill me anyways, then let's get this lynch train rolling! Meta. 

 

You got lucky Kipper. I thought I almost had everyone convinced. 

[twelfthrootoftwo]

I don't think Meta is evil, because if he were then I can't make sense of his claiming Beggar when he could instead claim, say, Bodyguard. The only possibility that doesn't rely on bizarre plays or random chance, IMO, is the one where Kipper received a note but is lying about its contents. That said, we do stand to gain a lot of info from Meta's lynch, so I'll just sit this one out. Kynedath

Edit: Ha. An interesting ninja. Meta

 

 

From my perspective, what would you rather me do?

Wait for the Snitch to come out and say, "Oh btw, I Snitched Kipper and told him to out the result, and he hasn't yet. I suspect him for that?"

Not out the note, and then later say, "Oh yeah guys, that Note that I got D1? Yeah, it said Meta was an Evil Beggar. No need to suspect me for that haha. I just decided to wait on it?"

Or some other thing that would get me even more suspicion if I did?

Cue your results to Mark by voting on Meta, wait half a cycle, reveal.

 

 

Also, this is from a while ago, but someone brought up that Traitor Ada pulling a WGG by attracting village protection is implausible. Judging from MR10, this is definitely plausible for Ada. Phatt's Snitch note now lining up with Kipper's makes it unlikely, but not impossible.

Edited January 23, 2016 by twelfthrootoftwo

[Guest]

Okay, fine. You guys are going to kill me anyways, then let's get this lynch train rolling! Meta.

You got lucky Kipper. I thought I almost had everyone convinced.

...I'm not trying to lynch you anymore, especially now that I know Mark is a Blind Snitch. I just wish he had told me his side role last Night, so we could have avoided this whole fiasco. But at least we got seven pages of talking out of it.

Edit: Twei, that's easy to say now, but I suspect that if I had waited to reveal, people would now be questioning why I waited to reveal.

Edited January 23, 2016 by Guest

[Metacognition he/him]

So I decided I'd do an actual tally for you guys:
 

Meta (6): Phatt, Clanky, Orlok, Ada?, Meta, Twei, 

Burnt (1?): Ada?

Kipper (1): Stink

Stink (1): Hellscythe

Ada (1): Maill

Hellscythe (1): Elbereth

 

Ada never retracted for Burnt, so I'm not sure if his vote will count as having moved. You better hope it does, cause you're going to need it! 

[Amanuensis he/him]

Was in the process of making my own vote tally when I realized I never retracted my vote from Burnt. Vote on Meta still stands.

 

(6) Meta: Kipper (1), Clanky (1), Hellscythe (1), Phatt (1), Phatt (2), Clanky (2), Adavantos (3), Orlok (1), Twei (2), Meta (1), 

(1) Kipper: Adavantos (1), Stink (1), Mailliw (2), 

(0) Burnt: Adavantos (2), 

(0) Shallan: Mailliw (1), 

(1) Stink: Hellscythe (2)

(0) Kynedath: Twei (1), 

(1) Adavantos: Mailliw (3), 

(1) Hellscythe: Elbereth (1), 

 

Okay, fine. You guys are going to kill me anyways, then let's get this lynch train rolling! Meta. 

 

You got lucky Kipper. I thought I almost had everyone convinced. 

 

Is this you admitting to being a Traitor, then? Because honestly I don't understand why you'd post that otherwise...

 

...I'm not trying to lynch you anymore, especially now that I know Mark is a Blind Snitch. I just wish he had told me his side role last Night, so we could have avoided this whole fiasco. But at least we got seven pages of talking out of it.

 

See above quote from Meta. It appears he's admitting to being evil. So why are you not trying to lynch him anymore?

 

Also, Blind Snitch's aren't guaranteed to fail either target. It's a 50% chance for each. So 50% of success that the player they are scanning is right and 50% the player they are sending the note to is right. Just because he succeeded in sending the note to the right target does not mean he failed scanning the right player. Also, as I said before, I find it highly unlikely that Meta just happened to be the same role as what the scan said but the alignment was fudged, as a 5% chance of hitting a player with the same role and opposite alignment is just way too low. @Stink, Hellscythe, Mailliw and Elbereth. Please either retract your votes or search for an item this cycle (or switch to Meta if you would prefer). Like I proposed D1, when it comes to lynching our decision needs to be coordinated to maximize the potential of our Morticians.

 

Has anyone voting for Meta put in the order to search? Because if he's now admitted to being a Traitor, the sooner we kill him the better - especially if he IS a Beggar. That is great role for the Traitors to have as it can net them information they would otherwise not have.

Edited January 23, 2016 by Adavantos

[Mark IV he/him]

Chances of Blind Snitch switching Meta's scan to an evil Beggar is 1/19 (~5%).

I don't like those odds and expressed suspicion of him Day 1.

If Meta dies and turns out evil, HS + my Beggar are essentially cleared.

If they continue to produce accurate results then we know they didn't just reveal his.

Clanky would be soft cleared as well, because why follow a teammate?

If Meta dies and turns out good, we now are aware of two other Beggars worthy of scrutiny.

Ada, did you forget? I'm a blind snitch. So, it really wouldn't be anyone's fault. Unless kip lied of course. Well have to look out for that. Edited January 23, 2016 by Mark IV

[Guest]

See above quote from Meta. It appears he's admitting to being evil. So why are you not trying to lynch him anymore?

I don't think he's a Eliminator. I think that the Note was fudged by either Mark being a Blind Snitch or Meta being a Compulsive Liar, based on what has been discussed today. Later in this post, you said you think the Note is faulty. Plus there's already a lynch train on Meta, so rather than add my own vote, I'll be searching for an item.