Mid-Range Game 10: Divided Loyalties

[Mailliw73 he/him]

As for why I think the Diagrams would attack Venture instead of STINK you actually answer that yourself "Second, why would the Surgeon not protect Stink? " The diagrammists probably wanted to take down PMs and STINK did a better job of attracting protection as you say yourself. STINK was also on the verge of getting lynched and they wouldn't want to waste an attack on him. 

This is what I was thinking. There is the possibility of a WGG, but this is my first thought.

 

Wait... Are you implying that you think Maill, Venture, both surgeons and the cook who attacked Maill are all traitors pulling a double WGG all on the same turn!?! 

That would be one heck of events.

[Clanky he/him]

I doubt it. Venture might be, but I think Mail had enough arrows pointed at him that his being targeted and protected is reasonable.

 

Venture was a pretty big target too, but just by the Diagramists- they had roleclaimed as a communication position that would make things more difficult for the Diagramists while not having nearly enough votes to have them waste a kill on someone being lynched (like the possible lynch of Stink, who has also roleclaimed as a runner). I don't see it outlandish that they were attacked and protected as well. It's still possible that it was all a set up- the Diagramists tell Venture to post as bait, then fake kill/protect him. That might explain why Venture avoided saying which side they were on- Venture didn't want a cook going after them.  

 

However, I would like to hear Venture and see what they have to say about it.

 

I know  . My previous post wasn't serious but that's just what PKs post seemed to say and I was confused for a second.

 

I will second that wanting to hear more from Venture. Such as the reasoning for the original role claim. I still believe that it wasn't a WGG but getting something directly from Venture would be nice. 

[Mailliw73 he/him]

I know  . My previous post wasn't serious but that's just what PKs post seemed to say and I was confused for a second.

 

I will second that wanting to hear more from Venture. Such as the reasoning for the original role claim. I still believe that it wasn't a WGG but getting something directly from Venture would be nice. 

I'll third that request. 

[Elbereth she/her]

Wait... Are you implying that you think Maill, Venture, both surgeons and the cook who attacked Maill are all traitors pulling a double WGG all on the same turn!?!

That would actually be quite smart if they could pull it off (we lynch one of them, and then "who would ever pull off a double WGG? xxx must be innocent!"), but somehow I doubt that the Diagrammists have a cook on their side, let alone two surgeons.

Do I think it's a WGG? Honestly, I have no idea. There was no one in PMs last cycle, so the only communication was in the thread and the evil doc. Unless they have a cook, which as I believe I've said seems unlikely given the limits on the Village in this game, the WGG would definitely be on Venture, obviously. I think it's entirely possible that the Diagrammists have a Surgeon/Edgedancer, on the other hand. An Edgedancer would be of particular use, actually, given it's other ability.

I think there's certainly a chance of that happening with Stink, although I'm not sure how high that chance is.

Okay, now that we've had a cycle, there are probably several PMs going on right now. At least two (assuming that Venture and Stink both actually sent in the action), and potentially 5 if there is another pair of Runners and the Bondsmith decides to get in on the action. And it seems more beneficial for the Bondsmith to make a PM than to tie two votes together, at this point.

Also, a possibility just occurred to me. Wouldn't it be interesting if the Bondsmith were evil? That would make the alternate win con much more of a possibility, and the traitors might even just go for that. Not that it's particularly likely, I think, but it is a possibility.

...And I'm really not sure why my vote was changed to Stink. If he wasn't GMing, I would suspect Kas of being the culprit, given that he knows my timezone and that I was likely to be off for the rest of the cycle. But he's not, so I really don't know. It certainly wasn't me.

I can't think of any way to figure out if Venture's near-death was a WGG without devolving quickly into IKYK's. For instance, we could ask for the Surgeons/Edgedancers not to protect Stink next cycle to see if he dies, but that seems risky and not smart. Or we could ask them to protect and see if the Diagrammists attack again, but that seems unlikely to happen. So... I guess we'll just have to wait and find out. (WAFO, if you will. Like RAFO, except pronounced by the bishop in The Princess Bride.)

That's about it for my thoughts at the moment.

EDIT: Storm it, ninja'd by 4 people. I usually check, but I forgot to this time.

EDIT 2: I mixed up Stink and Venture. Fixed.

Edited December 16, 2015 by Elbereth

[little wilson she/her]

Rule Change:

Due to some minor balance issues, I've talked to Meta and Kas, and we're changing something with the positions/rank system.

All ranks other than regular can start one PM with one person in their direct chain of command. This PM will continue until either dies, and if the lower rank dies first, the higher cannot start one with another person in their chain, so choose wisely.

What this means:

Thaidakar/Restares can start a PM with anyone in their group. Commanders can start a PM with any Captain or Regular in their chain of command. Captains can start a PM with a Regular.

These PMs are not able to be redirected by an Artifabrian, but they can be spied on with Friction. You do not have to wait until the end of the cycle to begin these PMs, but remember to include me and Kas in them. Also remember you can only start one.

[Guest]

<--PMs

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Just a helpful PSA.

[Clanky he/him]

Also, a possibility just occurred to me. Wouldn't it be interesting if the Bondsmith were evil? That would make the alternate win con much more of a possibility, and the traitors might even just go for that. Not that it's particularly likely, I think, but it is a possibility.

...And I'm really not sure why my vote was changed to Stink. If he wasn't GMing, I would suspect Kas of being the culprit, given that he knows my timezone and that I was likely to be off for the rest of the cycle. But he's not, so I really don't know. It certainly wasn't me.

I can't think of any way to figure out if Venture's near-death was a WGG without devolving quickly into IKYK's. For instance, we could ask for the Surgeons/Edgedancers not to protect Stink next cycle to see if he dies, but that seems risky and not smart. Or we could ask them to protect and see if the Diagrammists attack again, but that seems unlikely to happen. So... I guess we'll just have to wait and find out. (WAFO, if you will. Like RAFO, except pronounced by the bishop in The Princess Bride.)

 

That would definitely add an interesting dynamic to the game and even make the Altenate win condition more possible. I doubt the Diagrammists would go for it unless they feel like they are going to lose by playing to the primary vistory condition.

 

It's most likely that someone changed your vote near the end of the cycle and you just happened to be someone who hadn't voted. I almost always like to put any role action I have in at the end of a cycle to account for late changes or revelations. Also when you say it wasn't me that brought a GM question up. Can an ardent/lightweaver manipulate their own vote?

 

 

I like this rule change also since as I pointed out earlier everything does seem to be more helpful to the eliminators than the villagers i this game. 

Edited December 16, 2015 by Clanky

[Zas678 he/him]

So to be clear, to start these PMs, do we just choose and start PMing? Or should we PM you/Kas and let you two set it up so you can know for eavesdropping purposes? 

 

Also, the question becomes if our Illustrious Leaders should distribute the lists or not. I would either reccommend doing so completely, or not at all (or very very little). All it takes is one Diagramist to intercept in order for them to know everything while we know very little. So if one team does do it, let the other team know so that the Diagramists don't have more informations than the Sons of Honor and Ghostbloods. 

[Mailliw73 he/him]

<--PMs

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Just a helpful PSA.

I also wouldn't mind PMs. Just saying.

[Clanky he/him]

I also wouldn't mind PMs. Just saying.

I wouldn't be opposed to receiving a PM either. 

 

But in all seriousness I recommend not everybody starting PMs with the experienced players so that we can get a wider web of PMs and hopefully catch a few Scholars. 

[Guest]

I wouldn't be opposed to receiving a PM either. 

 

But in all seriousness I recommend not everybody starting PMs with the experienced players so that we can get a wider web of PMs and hopefully catch a few Scholars.

You wanna talk about webs? I'll talk to you about webs, big webs, little webs, sticky webs, nasty webs, sparkly webs, all of 'em. You just gotta PM me.

The best way to create a PM web is if multiple people contact one person, to be honest. And that person should probably be a regular.

[Zas678 he/him]

I think that there are three strategies would serve well.

 

One would be a web around regulars.

 

Another would be a top to bottom approach. So the Leader contacts a commander, the commanders contact a captain, and a captain contacts one of their regulars. Although it will be nearly incomplete (the commander and one leader will be stuck without communication), that's one gap that is bridgeable by runners or the bondsmith. 

 

Then again, then we have a number of captains who are stuck in little one on one conversations with their regulars. I mean, conversation with two is better than communication with one, but that limits order organizing. 

 

Another would be a bottom to top approach- the captains (except possibly one) choose their commanders, the commanders their leader, and the leader chooses a special captain (or regular) to report directly to him a la Dalinar and Kaladin. This makes for a tight group, but leaves out about half of the order, all of the regulars. 

 

What will likely end up happening is a smorgasboard of different connections as some go high, some go low, and some go for experience, making for a very interesting web of communication. Though I would recommend not PMing a lurker. If they're only signing on once a cycle, you won't be able to have a very good talk with them.

[Elbereth she/her]

Zas, from what Wilson said, no one can contact their superiors, only their subordinates.

I would say if you're inexperienced yourself, contact someone with experience. Otherwise, contact a newer player (who is not inactive). That makes the most sense, I think.

[Amanuensis he/him]

I'm finally about to go to sleep but before I do, considering this new development with PMs, I am one again requesting that my Faction Leader consider me for their one PM. Thank you, that is all.

[Clanky he/him]

I think that there are three strategies would serve well.

 

One would be a web around regulars.

 

Another would be a top to bottom approach. So the Leader contacts a commander, the commanders contact a captain, and a captain contacts one of their regulars. Although it will be nearly incomplete (the commander and one leader will be stuck without communication), that's one gap that is bridgeable by runners or the bondsmith. 

 

Then again, then we have a number of captains who are stuck in little one on one conversations with their regulars. I mean, conversation with two is better than communication with one, but that limits order organizing. 

 

Another would be a bottom to top approach- the captains (except possibly one) choose their commanders, the commanders their leader, and the leader chooses a special captain (or regular) to report directly to him a la Dalinar and Kaladin. This makes for a tight group, but leaves out about half of the order, all of the regulars. 

 

What will likely end up happening is a smorgasboard of different connections as some go high, some go low, and some go for experience, making for a very interesting web of communication. Though I would recommend not PMing a lurker. If they're only signing on once a cycle, you won't be able to have a very good talk with them.

 

Except you can't do a low to high approach. You can only open a PM with someone below you in the order. So if we want a web from top to bottom then we will have to use the Leader to Commander to Captain to regular. However if we just want the most people to be in a PM then the best way to accomplish that would be for commanders and Leaders to also target Regulars since they can't make their own PMs.

[STINK he/him]

Guess who can make new PMs every cycle and pass on messages that you might have for someone? Oh right, FLASHFISH the Runner.

[Zas678 he/him]

You're right, I had misread. I knew that Regular's couldn't approach superiors, but I thought captains and commanders could. 

[STINK he/him]

Does the act of making a PM with your subordinate count as an actual action? If so, then some PMs probably shouldn't be made, especially if you're a scholar.

[Haelbarde he/him]

Remember, exercise PM safety. Presumably nearly half the players just gained the ability to create a PM. Just because someone is in your chain of command, it doesn't mean they can't be a Diagrammist. Further, remember that PMs can be eavesdropped. So be conscious of that when talking.

[Bort he/him]

Wow, I express a single concern about people being too focused on the eliminators over the factions (before Wilson and Kas clarified the differences between this and MR7), and I get two votes for it. Thanks guys, love you too

 

Also, I'd just like to apologise for a slow post rate. My home network died last weekend, so the only place I can currently check the thread is at work, when I'm supposed to be working. That doesn't make for much time to dedicate to rooting out Diagrammists.

[Creccio he/him]

Guys I am singing in to say I am sorry but I wont be able to do much with this cycle or the next, Finals week started for me and it is hitting me hard and in force and i didn't expect it to be like this.

 

Again I am sorry for problems caused

[RippleGylf she/her]

I also wouldn't mind a pm.
Anywho, I have no good suspicions at this point other than Mail. The list strikes me as very suspicious, and I just have a gut feeling about this.

 

Edit: vote retracted.

Edited December 17, 2015 by RippleGylf

[little wilson she/her]

Can an ardent/lightweaver manipulate their own vote?

Yes

So to be clear, to start these PMs, do we just choose and start PMing? Or should we PM you/Kas and let you two set it up so you can know for eavesdropping purposes?

You can start the PM, but just make sure Kas and I are in the PM. The only PMs we need to start are the ones that actually count as actions, since those are the ones that can be blocked and/or redirected. These can only be spied on.

[Haelbarde he/him]

I also wouldn't mind a pm.

Anywho, I have no good suspicions at this point other than Mail. (Can't put in red, on mobile) The list strikes me as very suspicious, and I just have a gut feeling about this.

Use:

[color=red]My Vote[/color]

To retract, just swap 'red' for 'green'. Edited December 16, 2015 by Haelbarde

[Kynedath]

Mace you still aren't doing all that much. If you start to contribute and you don't cause more suspicion for yourself, then I will start trusting you

 

As for the PM conundrum, if we were to connect almost all of the PMs to one person, like STINK and Kipper want to do, then it will be very easy for the Diagrammists to kill that person and stop nearly all inner faction communication.I feel like a hierarchy system would do much better for everyone.