Mid-Range Game 9: The Steel Ministry

[Mailliw73 he/him]

I believe time has been up for 5 minutes now.

[RippleGylf she/her]

Meandbooks. I can support a lynch on phatt. It's a better option than what we have now.

 

Also, Gamma isn't on at the moment. Is he going to close up the cycle or someone else?

Edited October 21, 2015 by RippleGylf

[Amanuensis he/him]

As I only had time to look through all the posts for red and not check the order, this is a basic tally of all the votes, as of now.

 

(2) Meandbooks: Sart, Araris

(3) Phatt: Alfa, Adavantos, Ripple

(3) Ripple: Alvron, Creccio, Joe

(1) Deatchclutch: Lopen

(1) Mailliw: Kas

(1) Sart: Clanky

(1) Lopen: Mailliw

(1) Joe: Orlok

 

I do not think phattemer should be lynched; I only selected him because at the time (according to the last vote tally, which was wrong) it seemed like the only choice to keep ripple/meandbooks from being killed. Admittedly my reason for defending them have nothing to do with the what's going on in this game, but because of meta reasons (books being brand new and ripple being fairly new and the fact she was taken out extremely early in MR8). I try to avoid having the same players die in the beginning of these games because I imagine it would feel very bad for them, which is one of the reasons why when I was an eliminator in QF10 I insisted for us not to kill phatt because in every game I played until then he was one of the first to die. If I had a choice of it, I would have rather swung the vote in Joe or Lopen's direction, and if not either one of them, Mail or Sart.

[Gamma Fiend he/him]

Apologies, but the cycle *IS* over (and has been for ~2hours or so >.>) So stay tuned and wait patiently for the next cycle! (Probably in about 2 hours or so )

Also, just a reiteration that there should be no need for Sanderson Elimination related game content on other parts of the forum. If there is a specific situation you feel needs addressed, please let the GM or Mods know so we can get it squared away without anything leaking over to the rest of the forum!

 

Also, another big reminder. NO VOTE TALLIES OR VOTE EDITS WILL BE ACCEPTED AFTER THE CYCLE HAS ENDED, EVEN IF THE THREAD IS STILL OPEN!
 

[Gamma Fiend he/him]

"My, it seems like you were all quite eager to get started!" Grim had exclaimed, arms spread wide and gesturing wildly with obsidian daggers, rioting everybody's sense of paranoia and aggression, heightening the slowly building tension that could be felt in the room.

It didn't take long for almost everybody to become fully embroiled in the clashing and seemingly circular arguments, with everybody pointing fingers, naming names, and shouting over each other. It seemed that almost everybody had accused every other single person of being a traitor among them at some point over the course of the night. Or has it been two nights?, Grim thought idly. With the only exit -- and source of light -- blocked, it had become almost impossible to tell the passage of time. It had seemed like they were truly stuck here until some sort of progress had been made.

Still, the hours had bled together and Grim found himself beginning to grind his teeth. He had given them a deadline, a precise task expected to be carried out in it's full capacity as a member of the Canton of Inquisition. He finally held up a hand, trying to silence them. He shouldn't have let his mind wander idly on thoughts of hot knives and pressing questions.

Some bickering and uncertainty continued, until Grim had to finally send out a blast of Soothing, flaring Brass as strongly as he could. He knew that this emotion smothering blast would pierce through even copperclouds.

"The time has come." He said, beckoning them forward.

They all trailed behind him, casting away all previous quarrels as they followed Grim into the bowels of the cavern as it wound its way slowly deeper and deeper into the earth. The passing lines pointing towards the metal torch brackets on the wall growing further and further apart told Grim that they were getting into the real depths of the dungeons. His burning tin filled his head with the sounds of rustling cloaks and slow and careful footsteps, the scuff of shoes and the kicking sound of gravel. He heard a dripping sound somewhere up ahead and already knew it wasn't water.

"I've shown you mere glimpses of the sacred blessings of Hemalurgy," Grim said, ushering the students into the room at the end of the tunnel hiding behind a massive arched obsidian doorway. "Now let me show you other aspect of being an Inquisitor," he said. 

He was hardly able to contain himself. "Let me show you the art of Inquisition."

There was a single burning fire in the center of the room, casting wicked and deceiving shadows on the circular walls, as the room was a giant circle, the walls lined with various shelves and racks and chains. There were countless random saws, knives, spikes, and dark, twisted weapons or tools that must be used for indescribable horrible acts. The floor was metallic and grated, stained a sickening stain of red that didn't look like rust.

"Will Marie Lepinceau please step forward."

***

Grim finished many hours later, not exactly satisfied with the answers he had heard. He knew he had asked the right questions. And there was no doubting the method, that was for sure.

He finally looked up, gazing each and every person in the room in the eyes. "Not guilty." He declared, putting the poor woman out of her misery and slashing her throat in one last, quick motion.

***

Milon Bulvier walked back from the.... "lesson", slightly more disturbed than feeling educated. He had decided to let himself trail behind the main group as they all slowly made their way back up the dimly lit tunnel. He preferred to be left alone with his thoughts for the moment. He considered swallowing another vial of zinc, but decided against it. Besides, he had been rioting people all day, and hadn't really seemed to accomplish much anyway.

Maybe that's the problem with zinc and rioting, he thought, wondering. You always spent so much time and conscious effort being aware of other people and their emotions, trying to influence or manipulate them in some way. But that left the person burning the metal so little time wondering about themself! Like what was he really doing here? Sure, he didn't really seem to have a choice in the matter at the time, but he wondered what about himself had even gotten their attention in the first place. He knew he had the aptitude for watching people and picking up on and reading body language, that was all part of being a rioter. Being able to understand people. Perhaps that was why he was chosen. Feeling more resolved, he quickened his step, getting ready to burn some more zinc, to help encourage people toward more discussion and ferret out the skaa harassing them.

So caught up in himself and his plans for everybody else, Milon walked right past the skaa without even noticing. It was the byproduct of ignoring them for basically his entire life, and by time he realized what was wrong, the knife was already being shoved into his back, as he felt the cold obsidian cut right through him, and a hot, searing pain ripped through him. He tried to scream, but a rough, callused hand covered his mouth and muffled his garbled cries for help.

"The skaa send their best regards," they spat, plunging the knife in again and again until Milon's body crumpled lifelessly to the floor.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ripply Gylf was an Inquisitor Soother!
Mailliw73 was an Inquisitor Rioter!

A quick note. I am ONLY counting the first red votes placed by each player, hence me asking for any retracted votes to be colored in green. Sorry for not being more clear on this Cycle One.

Meandbooks (2) - Sart, Araris
Phattemer (2) - Alfa, Adavantos
Ripple (3) - Alvron, Creccio, Joe
Mailliw (2) - Kas, Wyrm
Sart (1) - Clanky
Lopen (1) - Mailliw
Deathclutch (1) - Lopen
Joe (1) - Orlok

Please let me know if I made any mistakes!

Day 2 has begun! Again, I apologize for my irregular time schedules! Swinging from 2nd to 3rd shifts (and back, and then back again, etc.) is rough, but I still want to get the best possible write-up for all of you! Thank you to everyone for such a great start to the game and a huge Day 1 to pour over!

Day 2 will end at exactly 10AM Friday, October 23rd! (Even if if takes a little longer to get the next thread up. That's why I promise to make sure each cycle lasts at least the full 2 days, to be fair for all players as possible in all time zones. ALL PMs *should* be sent out, let me know if you have any questions or issues!

Player List

 

1. Wyrmhero - Wyrm Heron
2. IrulelikeSTINK - No Name
3. Alvom Halbin - Andierre Reynaud
4. RippleGylf - Marie Lepinceau Inquisitor Soother
5. Venture Mistborn - Maxisum
6. Orlok - Locke Tekiel
7. Winter Cloud - Sophia Erikell
8. Mailliw73 - Milon Bulvier Inquisitor Rioter
9. Araris Valerian - Arad Penrod
10. Alvron - Jak
11. Creccio - Inor Haze
12. The Honey Badger - Dagbert Honerion
13. TheMightyLopen - Kellam Lyre
14. polkinghornbd - Elijah
15. Nicocoberru - Coco
16. Alfa - Ashbringer Fadraux
17. Kasimir - Koschei Jerzy
18. Phattemer - Axies
19. Kipper - Kipper
20. Clanky - Lan
21. Sart - Mar
22. Shallan - Citona Vinid
23. The Only Joe - Joel Tormander
24. Zephrer - Serech of House Huxer
25. Meandbooks - Ailyth
26. Deathclutch10 - Shi Kuratchi

 

Edited October 29, 2016 by Alvron

[Amanuensis he/him]

@Gamma: My primary concern is that Ripple was lynched when she shouldn't have been. Considering that Day 1 began at exactly 0401 EST and Ripple changed her vote from meandbooks to phatt at 0412 (more than 48 hours from the initial post), it should not have taken affect and therefore the two of them would have been tied and both still alive. But I suppose it's too late for that now that her role has been revealed. I'm very sorry Ripple, I wish I could have done more to help.

 

 

 

EDITED IN CORRECT TIME

Edited October 21, 2015 by Adavantos

[Gamma Fiend he/him]

@Gamma: My primary concern is that Ripple was lynched when she shouldn't have been. Considering that Day 1 began at exactly 0401 EST and Ripple changed her vote from meandbooks to phatt at 0415 (more than 48 hours from the initial post), it should not have taken affect and therefore the two of them would have been tied and both still alive. But I suppose it's too late for that now that her role has been revealed. I'm very sorry Ripple, I wish I could have done more to help.

 

Her vote didn't count for either, as the post was made after the cycle had already ended, and was edited even after that, it was after the cycle ended, but all the votes placed before it ended has Ripple still in the lead with 3 votes, with Phattemer and Meandbooks tied at 2 votes. If there was some other sort of error I overlooked pelase let me know and I will try and fix immediately!

Edited October 21, 2015 by Gamma Fiend

[Amanuensis he/him]

Ripple voted for meandbooks 6 hours prior to turnover then edited it out 11 minutes after [or am I crazy?]

[Creccio he/him]

Orlok. I am voting for you because of the Ripple mix up. It was a very easy mistake that anyone- including you- could make. Why did you have to point it out? I've reread your arguments about it and it doesn't really make sense. Also, something just doesn't add up. I'll retract it if you give me some more reasons why you're village. I was thinking about voting for you last cycle, but I wanted to see how it turned out. You retracted the vote only after people got annoyed at you about it. 

 

Whew. Pretty long post for me. Glad I decided to play after all.

 

 

 

What does not add up?

 

I also voted for Ripple (My deepest apologies...) And so did Joe and Alvron. Put us all in the block, let us discuss why we deserve to live or why not.

 

 Also Mail died, any idea who would want him out of the game the fastest? We have a lot to go off, let's see who slips.

[Creccio he/him]

Orlok was the one who started it. His posts don't add up. If you know me, I generally vote more off of instinct than logic, though I'm getting better at analysis. 

 

Kek, ok

 

I have 10 posts, i can comfortably say i know 100% of you. I would like to get to know you better if that's ok with you, maybe some pm's later ?

[Creccio he/him]

No PMs, remember? But yeah. I'd go back and read previous games to get an idea of people's playstyles. (First Game of me: MR4, LG9, QF4. Evil Games: LG11, LG12)

Well. No pms about the game, but i can still PM you to know about you... things like hobbies and stuff like that?

[Gamma Fiend he/him]

Ripple voted for meandbooks 6 hours prior to turnover then edited it out 11 minutes after [or am I crazy?]

 

No, you are correct, and I was just unable to lock the thread in time, and had missed that previous vote as I was only reading for red votes and missed the edit time, so that was my mistake, I am working on the issue right now, but until otherwise just continue the game as normal.

[Jo and the Bush all/any]

Well, someone did target me last night, so at the very least I know they didn't make the skaa kill.

As for mailliw's death, if he had been coinshotted, I would say Alv, but he was Skaa'd to death. So I think it was just a fear kill.

[Amanuensis he/him]

Thank you, sir. With that squared away, I will begin working on my day 1 analysis.

[Zephrer he/him]

Sigh... Two gone...

Well storm it all everyone, we're suddenly a lot worse off than when we started. Let's get to evening the odds, shall we?

[Creccio he/him]

Any leads? Joe got something apparently

[Kasimir he/him]

So, Ripple is dead, and it's unclear if she was even supposed to die, given Adavantos pointing out that her retraction only occurred after the cycle ended. I came back only after the cycle ended, and I generally do not like to post after the cycle is supposed to be closed, so I am going to have to retrace a little old territory here without the context of the previous Cycle. I will try and condense the less pertinent bits, now.

Thanks, Alv, for pointing out that we're supposed to green our original vote as well. I now feel like a right moron for having just skimmed the other parts of the rules and blithely assuming that retractions work the same way they did in previous games played. I somewhat expected that you held back for information-gathering purposes, but it's good to hear that, anyway. My bigger concern was more or less the timeline, but I consider the issue to be straightened out now.

1. I must confess that I am rather disappointed with how the Ripple issue ended up. Setting aside the issue of the GM error, I am uncomfortable with the idea that a player has ended up feeling seriously attacked and hurt by our seizing on an error--and even worse, the error turns out to have been a genuine one. I at least feel that it was not worth getting a skaa--doing, as it were, our part to 'win', if this is the means by which we do this. Orlok claims that he raised the issue because it deserved some attention but did not intend a lynch train. The fact that he retracted and attempted to put a vote on Joe instead seems to support this, but I'm not immediately convinced, as it's also a good way, I think, to instigate a lynch train and then absolve yourself of responsibility thereafter when a lynch ensues. So while I'd like to hear more from Orlok, he's already got a vote on him, and I'll move on.

To be frank, Joe, your logic for voting Ripple works against you too: you claim you would not have voted for her if not for the number of people who have spoken up in her defense, ergo we would get information if she's skaa. It seems to me that given how prominent your mysterious plan was in prior discussion and given how swiftly Maili defended you and other people such as Clanky took positions on the matter, would we not gain as much information from lynching you? After all, while misreading the rules happens (as I myself have just done, with not changing the colour of my votes), your withdrawal of that plan after strident challenge about potentially wasting Lurcher charges can be cast in a rather fortuitous light. By that same logic for which we voted for Ripple, then, shouldn't we vote for you too? That seems to me to be rather problematic.

I don't know what to make of Alv. It's not like we have much evidence on Day 1, and people go off guts just as much as anything else.

2. Quality! Enough on the Ripple affair. I want to challenge Araris on his reason for voting Meandbooks. While we do need to make sure that inactives are actually showing up in thread and contributing, I also note--as have others--that it's rather convenient to just show up in thread, slap a vote on an inactive, and leave. I won't deny that we do need to encourage each other to activity, but does this really help? Recall how players like Jasnah and Karlin would just camp and not care about votes slapped on them. In these kinds of cases, I argue that poke-voting isn't exactly effective. We don't just want everyone speaking up and discussing, quite frankly, we want people saying useful/fruitful things. And what do I mean by useful/fruitful? Well, a good start might be talking about their positions on various disputes that have come up in-thread and their various suspicions. In a sense, I am less suspicious of those who have the guts to commit to a position because in my opinion, an Eliminator must be careful not to appear too certain; they must be careful not to overcommit, because committing is risky.

tldr; I consider poke-voting to be the most non-committal form of appearing to be participating. Although poke-voting is helpful, I want to see more participation over and above poke-voting. It's okay if you don't have much time: at least say something, in the time you do have to participate in this game. I don't want to add too much fire to the Sart-Clanky debate, but I do want to add that poking people is one way of helping, Sart, but not if we don't know anything else about what you're thinking.

In this category of non-informativeness, I include, non-exhaustively, Zeph, Winter, Badger, polkinghorne, Nicocoberru, Alfa, Venture, Phat, Shallan, Deathclutch, Meandbooks, but I'd extend the worry to pretty much anyone. In fact, Winter is another major offender here: many, many posts, but none of them particularly helpful. I stress again, people: I'm not asking for yards of analysis. I'm not asking for the Wilson Monologues or for the Adavantos Papers. I'm just asking you make your own views heard. So: Keep talking, people! Discussion is our main weapon here. Discussion and analysis. Our two main weapons are discussion, analysis, and our shiny new spikes. Our *three* main weapons are...god, I'll just come in again.

3. Wyrm confirmed for holder of Death Note. Chief, can you please do me a favour and never use me in your examples of who might die? >> (Be interested in what you have to say about it, though.)

Edited to bold persons of interest for easy reading.

Edited October 22, 2015 by Kasimir

[Amanuensis he/him]

Before I tackle analyzing all of Day 1 there's a couple things I want to bring up regarding Joe's most recent post.

 

Considering he was targeted but is still alive and burned his metal, that means he was either targeted by a Lurcher, Seeker, Smoker or Rioter. @Gamma: The first clarification in your second post of the original thread says that if a Rioter targets someone who can't target another player, they will just make them burn their metal "fervently." Given the definition of that word, does that mean if Joe had already sent in the command to burn his metal that it would force him to waste a second charge, or was that word simply used for flavor? When realizing this, I remembered that a coppercloud could prevent a player from being affected by emotional allomancy, which was the supposed big fault in Joe's plan that Kipper insisted he was referring to. I will have to go back and read his posts regarding that subject as my memory might be off, but how did we not realize this before, and if he was to criticize Joe and not reading the rules correctly, how did he miss this fact?

[Zephrer he/him]

I don't trust Orlok. The circumstances in which he got Ripple lynched were very suspicious, though that's common knowledge. I don't have any evidence, outside of instinct, to implicate anyone else.

Seeing as instinct got ripple killed, it's obvious that we can't afford to base our votes off instinct. We need concrete evidence before we decide to lynch someone. Granted we will make mistakes, but let's minimize them.

[Clanky he/him]

@Zephrer: As much as it seems like a good thing to have concrete evidence before lynching it isn't going to happen. Especially in this game with no seeker. All the evidence we will have is circumstantial and at least slightly based off of instinct.

 

Now I find the Skaa kill on Mail quite interesting. I know that it can just be viewed as a fear kill and shrugged off but I'm not sure that is it. It is different from a fear kill since Mail was under suspicion by several people. Normally kills are made on people with little chance of being lynched and I think maill was already under enough suspicion that it shouldn't have been too hard to push a lynch onto him. So why would the Skaa kill him?

 

Was it to let everyone know that an inquisitor trusted Joe? Was it to get people to focus on Joe/Wyrm/Kas and everyone who was accusing/defending him? I think this could be a viable reason and that the Skaa were not involved with Maill in any way so they attempt to put suspicion somewhere that they have no part.

 

Was this supposed to make Joe look good since it would be silly for him to talk about the gamblers fallacy if he were actually a Skaa?

 

That's all very speculative at this point but I don't think we should it as more than a fear kill.

[Kasimir he/him]

Thank you for speaking up, Zeph
 
I want to concur with Winter and Clanky here: instinct matters. You say instinct points you towards several people. Who are they? Why are they flagging your instincts? Even if instincts are unformed and unspecific, the more you interrogate your feelings, the more you can get out of them. Sharing this with us--even if it's as small as who you instinctively suspect--still gives us another angle on which to discuss things. Remember, we don't want to tunnel onto only a few options and issues. While discussion itself is selective and focused, it always helps when we have more fodder for discussion, and even knowing who your instincts are pointing to is something to consider: do other people feel the same way about that person? Why/why not? Drawing these connections are especially helpful for later in the game.
 
In addition, Clanky is correct to point out that we do not always have concrete evidence before a lynch. Many times, a lynch is pretty much a bit of evidence, crossing our fingers, and hoping for the best. Sometimes, we're lucky and we have a smoking gun. Not always. And on Day 1 and Day 2, these are the times when things are especially tenuous; cases against a player, if they exist, are more or less stitched together by instinct, with bunches of holes.
 
Last, I am going to differ from Winter. Even with the understanding that Ripple wasn't supposed to be lynched (GM error happened), her lynch was partly a matter of instinct. Alv acknowledged as much when he claimed that his vote on her was nothing more than unsubstantiable instinct. I want to challenge some of Creccio's implicit reasoning as well when they claimed that:
 

Is there any other reason than it being a subconscious reaction? Referring to the lynching as most likely a Skaa and claiming it on a confusion just does not roll for me.

We have been talking about a plan to get the Skaa since page one, not only that, but on the rules it is clearly stated the the Skaa are the bad guys in the game, on top of that, there were a good 2-3 posts on math behind our chances of hitting a Skaa/Villager. You have been active in the thread (Since page 2, afaik) and I do not believe you just "forgot, it can't be a coincidence.

Give me some good reasoning --other than "other games skaa=good"--, or else my vote is on you.

What is 'good reasoning'? 'Does not roll for me' is an appeal to intuition or at least deeply-held personal standards of evidence that are not articulateable (if you can articulate them, I'd be glad to here them) and which therefore function just like instinct because they are not intersubjectively accessible grounds for the rest of us.

-

My point is, we shouldn't eschew instinct as a reason for making moves at times, or to even kickstart discussion. It's sometimes unavoidable, particularly early in the game, and sometimes instinct can work very well. It can, more importantly, form a good starting point for discussion, or at least something for which we can go back and look at a few cycles on. Not all of us are great at analysis or have the patience for it. I can respect that. With the work on my plate, my attention span for these things has been increasingly short, of late.

But I intend to try, and I intend to at least share my impressions and instincts--even if I have to carefully earmark them as such.

-

...Okay, I'm going to stop procrastinating and get back to that paper on privacy rights now :/

[Creccio he/him]

 

What is 'good reasoning'? 'Does not roll for me' is an appeal to intuition or at least deeply-held personal standards of evidence that are not articulateable (if you can articulate them, I'd be glad to here them) and which therefore function just like instinct because they are not intersubjectively accessible grounds for the rest of us.

-

 

 

Well,  when you are writing (at least when I write) I am focused on what the screen says i am writing.  Writing Skaa and not realizing it is just something that I personally do not feel should happen unless the Skaa were already on your mind, either by being one or trying to figure them out.

 

Indeed that might seem like instinct, call it what you may, but the mind is usually focused on one task at a time, and if you somehow mess up the names of things it is because your attention was split, Was she trying to cover for the Skaa or was she truly just making a typo?

 

At this point is fairly obvious which is which but at that time, i firmly held my vote and held it up and proud until she died.

 

I feel deeply sorry for killing you Ripple, believe me, but I did what I believed and if you believe I am better dead, then let it be so.

 

 

Good reasoning to mess up? I can't really think of any right now, maybe there weren't other than "It just happened". Maybe she WAS trying to figure out how to get the Skaa and just messed up her wording, and if maybe if she had revealed more information about what she was (Claim?) and openly tried to show her innocence I would have gone back on my word. Alas, none of that happened and she is dead.

 

If you want we can continue to battle wits, but I do believe we are on the same side in this game and we should focus on killing Skaa instead of poking each other.

 

RIP Mail

RIP Ripple

 

I shall mourn your deaths all day.

[Clanky he/him]

Joe, according to your own infallible logic since Maill is good you therefore must be bad? Why were you so quick to assume that Maill was fear-killed?

 

EDIT: Colour

Edited October 21, 2015 by Clanky

[nicocoberru she/her]

Welp. Ripple killed by the Grammar Police.

 

If we're going on by guts here, then the ones my guts are warning me are Orlok and Joe, due to that whole Ripple debacle, though, everyone has already mentioned that so...

[Jo and the Bush all/any]

Anaylsis of someone visiting me:

The only options are a lurcher, seeker, smoker or rioter.

The skaa would have no reason to lurch me. My plan was no longer working, and I was rather suspicious. They would beore likely to ignore me and hope a coinshot took me out.

The skaa would have no reason to smoke me either, since I'm a inquisitor. All that would do is defend me from being soothed, seeked or rioted.

Rioting a player who had claimed to be a tineye is just a waste. I doubt anyone would choose to do so.

A skaa seeker might choose to visit me, if they didn't believe I was a tineye, but mailliw spent a lot of time vouching for my honesty, and they knew he wasn't a skaa.

So I choose to believe the person who visited me is a inquisitor. Unless someone can point out something Missed?

Edit: ninja'd by clanka.

Because we do to much anaylsis of eliminator kills in these games. The safest option is always to kill the most experianced players, unless you learn of a powerful role. That's why I fhink mailliw was a fear kill.

And I said it was illogic, not logic, that made me want to vote for mailliw. Plus I added that if he was a inquisitor, I was the GM. I'm actually Gamma fiend!

Edited October 21, 2015 by The Only Joe