Mid-Range Game 9: The Steel Ministry

[Clanky he/him]

Nevermind.

I had an idle thought and reread the rules. My original plan depended on how bronze worked, and I just found out I badly misunderstood how it worked. I thought they targeted someone, and would be told which actions were used against that person. So I've been trying to get a Village seeker to target me. That way they could announce what metal was used against me. If it had been anything other than Iron, especially if it was Brass, then the name I had would probably be a Skaa, and could announce them as such.

But bronze doesn't work that way.

So, sorry to waste so much time discussing a plan that doesn't work. I'll try to come up with something else.

Well that is disappointing that the plan never would have worked. Still I am slightly glad that I wasn't just missing something obvious when I couldn't find any reasonable plan based on Joes idea.

2. The Joe-Clanky-lots-of-other-people debate has ended, because Joe went and pulled a Macen [=did not read rules properly] (j/k) Consequently, I’m not really keen on going over the whole ‘will this or will this not work’ issue because the point is now a moot one. However, I’m a little curious as to why Maili is so quick to trust Joe, because I sure as blazes wouldn’t trust Wyrm this much to stick my neck out for him, in particular on Day One, but perhaps you’ve played enough games together that you feel you have a good read on him?

I agree that Mail seems most suspicious at this point with his trust in Joe, but my judgement may be clouded by the epic trolling of LG14.

Exactly, Winter. He just seems genuine to me. If his plan doesn't work, you can lynch me as well as him. I'm willing to throw in with him right now.

However by buddying up with Joe and saying to lynch him and Joe if the plan failed he can gain a lot as an eliminator. This are assumptions based on maill being a Skaa and Joe being an inquisitor.

1) Firstly Joe is more likely to back him up later in the game

2) If the plan failed and Joe was lynched before maill and found to be good, why would you lynch someone who vouched for an innocent?

3) If he was of the same opinion as me then the plan would've been a good way to waste some of the Inquisitors lurching.

Still it is all speculative and I won't be voting yet as I have a few other suspicions I am looking into first.

EDIT: Speling and clarification

Edited October 20, 2015 by Clanky

[Creccio he/him]

@Joe

 

Do you think we could now know the plan? Someone might be able to modify it and make it work, who knows

 

I have no opinion on Mail's issue at the moment, maybe he thought such a risk was what was necessary to get the Skaa out

[The Honey Badger he/him]

Hey guys, sorry I haven't had the time to formulate a full post as of yet, but now I can. 

 

Historically D1 Lynches have been necessary for starting discussion. However in this particular instance we have enough discussion (I believe) to warrant not having a lynch. I personally don't care (as long as it's not me ) But if you guys don't want to lynch we don't have to. 

 

It's good to see people running numbers and doing some good analysis like Advantos. I  think the most important thing in this game is preserving valuable charges, like Steel or Iron. We don't want to waste them, but the problem is is that if we never use them, then they are worthless, as someone pointed out.

 

I would like to point out that the discussion on Joe's secret plan, is now basically worthless because the plan doesn't work.

[Alfa he/him]

Sorry, Winter Cloud, i do not understand how all of our coinshots and lurchers are endangered.

[Sart he/him]

Well, so much for the plan. It would have worked to a lesser extent, if Joe could actually burn Gold instead of Tin. That way, if an Eliminator had targeted him, he would have learned what metal they had. That's what I thought the plan was actually going to turn out to be. However, it looks like that was not the case. It still prompted some interesting discussion, but I'm not sure what I can glean from it. Also, it appears Meandbooks has been on 17thshard, but has not posted to the thread. Get on that! I promise we don't bite.

[Mailliw73 he/him]

Kas/Clanky, I knew defending Joe would make me suspicious. Thing is, after so many games with him, I've picked out many of his lies, just in the last QF, I knew from day 1 that he didn't have a Merc like he claimed. Not that this is complete proof that I know his alignment, but this is me getting a good read, or at least telling the truth about having Tin. I think I'm right, but who doesn't?

So, if you badly want a lynch, go ahead and take me, if that'll help you, but these are just ny thoughts.

[Guest]

@Wyrm thanks for pointing that out to me. I'm on mobile right now, but it will be changed in a few hours. Trust me, there will be no “accident."

Edit: Done

I'm kind of curious as to what Joe's real motivation for throwing that plan out was. I did see the flaw, but I was on mobile when I saw it and didn't want to spend a whole lot of time being inefficient on this keyboard. My immediate thought was that he was just trying to run it up the pole to see if it would stick, because the flaw *is* rather obvious. Here we run into the situation where most everyone agrees with a plan simply because someone suggests it. I don't know about anyone else, but I do have an immediate inclination to agree with a plan that seems well though out, until I investigate it. Just a thought. It's easy to claim a misreading of the rules. Heck, I did it several times in LG14 to get Wilson to trust me. BTW, Joe, you don't gotta defend yourself. This is all I have to say on the matter.

I also have some minor suspicion of Adavantos, simply because he's setting himself up as a town leader, and he did the same thing as an evil last QF...I don't think it matters much to have a vote tally of who wants a D1 lynch; that just seems odd to me.

@Adavantos I agree with Kas, mostly (in fact, I agree with him so much that I put his post on lynches from a previous game in my About Me page! You should totes go read it). I don't think poke voting people has a point. Rarely do people keep their votes on someone for the whole of D1. If we want to get discussion out of D1, the way to do it is to do what Orlok did.

Edited October 20, 2015 by Guest

[Clanky he/him]

@maill: I'm sure that you knew that you would gain suspicion by siding with Joe, but the real question is whether it is worth it. I mentioned what you could gain from it as a skaa but as an inquisitor you can also gain from it. It is often a good thing to have some people suspecting you as it helps protect from the eliminator kill as they ca just hope you get lynched instead. I am not discounting the fact that you are an inquisitor and as you can see I haven't yet voted for you.

 

@Kipper: How did you see the flaw in Joes plan when he hadn't revealed it to anyone? Did you know he misread the rules when coming up with the plan?

[Guest]

Clanky, I saw the flaw in what he was saying in thread. It was rather glaringly obvious, in my opinion, because simply saying “Only lurchers visit me" is not a good plan for quite a few reasons. As for whether or not he genuinely misread the rules, well, that's what I'm asking.

[Amanuensis he/him]

In response to your suspicions of me, Kipper, I am by no means attempting to assume a leadership role in this game, nor did I really in the last QF. It was Joe who did that, and while I still am unsure how I managed to obtain his trust that game - as I never intended or tried to - I didn't attempt to take advantage of it until the last few cycles.

 

Either way, regardless of my alignment in any of these games, I plan to play the same way; as in by posting as large a quantity of quality posts as I can and being open with a majority of, if not all, of my thoughts. On the subject of me gathering a tally of which players support a day one lynch (and their reasoning why), this is information that I personally find important as I can cross reference what people say with the opinions they've expressed in past games and compare it to any future statements, in order to discover contradictions and faults in their character.

 

There are some significant differences in my posts from last game and this one, though; the poke votes being the most noticeable. I had no reason to do that last game [partly because Mailliw was doing it already, but mostly because I already knew all the people I needed to kill and therefore was confident enough that I didn't need to instigate any conversation to achieve my goals]. I essentially had no part in any of the lynches through the first half of the game, as it was much easier to sit back and let the villager's tear out each others throats while I created false leads with our nightly kill. Besides a gut feeling from Alvron that wasn't mentioned until Cycle 6 or 7, no one expressed any doubts of me being on the side of good. My point is, if you have suspicions of me this early, it's because I am unable to play as smooth as I would like due to me being clueless as to whose on my side and who isn't. Even worse is the fact that I received a role that in my opinion is the most useless one [for my play style as well as helping the village as a whole].

 

 

EDIT: Also, just read the aforementioned post by Kas, and by george, I think he's got it.

Edited October 20, 2015 by Adavantos

[Jo and the Bush all/any]

With that in mind, I have to ask. Who supports a lynch this day and who doesn't? Simply add a yay or nay in your following posts and I will begin tallying it up. I would go back to read everything I've missed, but until my shift finishes I can't dedicate that much attention to this game.

 

2. The Joe-Clanky-lots-of-other-people debate has ended, because Joe went and pulled a Macen [=did not read rules properly] (j/k) Consequently, I’m not really keen on going over the whole ‘will this or will this not work’ issue because the point is now a moot one. However, I’m a little curious as to why Maili is so quick to trust Joe, because I sure as blazes wouldn’t trust Wyrm this much to stick my neck out for him, in particular on Day One, but perhaps you’ve played enough games together that you feel you have a good read on him?

Anyway, Joe, since the plan has failed thanks to Rule of Gamma, I’d like to know how, exactly, based on your initial interpretation of the rules, you were planning on soliciting a Seeker to confirm with you about what sort of action you were targeted with. There’s no PMs in this game and you were not forthcoming with your plan. How were our Seekers supposed to read your mind and go with what you had thought about?

Mailliw has proven very good at reading me in the past. I honestly can't wait until I'm an eliminator again, so i can see if i can actually slip by him for once.

 

My plan was just to ask in thread if a seeker who had seeked me would reveal if something other than Iron targeted me. If it was only iron, don't reveal. Was there a chance that no seekers would seek me? Yes. But it was the best plan I could come up with.

 

I agree that Mail seems most suspicious at this point with his trust in Joe, but my judgement may be clouded by the epic trolling of LG14.

However by buddying up with Joe and saying to lynch him and Joe if the plan failed he can gain a lot as an eliminator. This are assumptions based on maill being a Skaa and Joe being an inquisitor.

1) Firstly Joe is more likely to back him up later in the game

2) If the plan failed and Joe was lynched before maill and found to be good, why would you lynch someone who vouched for an innocent?

3) If he was of the same opinion as me then the plan would've been a good way to waste some of the Inquisitors lurching.

1) Nah. I don't trust anyone who supported, ignored, or opposed my plan.

2) Yes. that's a common eliminator tactic. they know who is innocent, so they know who to defend.

3) That could be true.

 

@Joe, Do you think we could now know the plan? Someone might be able to modify it and make it work, who knows

I already revealed the plan. Hope a seeker targeted me.

 

Next time you come up with awesome plan, Joe, reread the rules first. So, plan is no go. Do you still, say, want the Lurchers to Lurch you as you revealed your role? Or not, since the plan is a no-go? Just getting these things out there. Or did you already answer that?

Lurchers can do what they want. I'm still going to burn, since I have no reason not to.

 

Kas/Clanky, I knew defending Joe would make me suspicious. Thing is, after so many games with him, I've picked out many of his lies, just in the last QF, I knew from day 1 that he didn't have a Merc like he claimed. Not that this is complete proof that I know his alignment, but this is me getting a good read, or at least telling the truth about having Tin. I think I'm right, but who doesn't?

So, if you badly want a lynch, go ahead and take me, if that'll help you, but these are just my thoughts.

I can vouch for this. He's very good at reading me. (Not vouching for his villageness though)

 

I'm kind of curious as to what Joe's real motivation for throwing that plan out was. I did see the flaw, but I was on mobile when I saw it and didn't want to spend a whole lot of time being inefficient on this keyboard. My immediate thought was that he was just trying to run it up the pole to see if it would stick, because the flaw *is* rather obvious. Here we run into the situation where most everyone agrees with a plan simply because someone suggests it. I don't know about anyone else, but I do have an immediate inclination to agree with a plan that seems well though out, until I investigate it. Just a thought. It's easy to claim a misreading of the rules. Heck, I did it several times in LG14 to get Wilson to trust me. BTW, Joe, you don't gotta defend yourself. This is all I have to say on the matter.

I did indeed misread the rules. The first time I read them I was in the middle of a game of ToS, as the lookout. And what do you mean you saw the flaw? (I know you already explained what you meant, but that still makes no sense)

[STINK he/him]

I think that for the rest of this cycle, you won't see much discussion from many people, including Phattemer and maybe more. So come on out guys!

Edited October 20, 2015 by IrulelikeSTINK

[Guest]

I did indeed misread the rules. The first time I read them I was in the middle of a game of ToS, as the lookout. And what do you mean you saw the flaw? (I know you already explained what you meant, but that still makes no sense)

What doesn't make sense?

[Jo and the Bush all/any]

The part of my plan that had a flaw in it was held back. none of you knew about it until I spotted the flaw. You all knew that I hadn't posted my full plan, so saying

 It was rather glaringly obvious, in my opinion, because simply saying “Only lurchers visit me" is not a good plan for quite a few reasons.

means you either didn't read some of my posts, or simply didn't trust me.

 

So, because you couldn't have seen the flaw. I'm wondering why you claimed you did.

[STINK he/him]

The flaw being Soothing?

[Jo and the Bush all/any]

The flaw being seeking. have you been paying attention to what I've posted?

[Guest]

I guess I have to spell this out. The part of the plan that you revealed first...

...would appreciate it if a lurcher would target me. That gives me a list of people to defend if they're up for a lynch....

was severely flawed and quite honestly, can be sabotaged in a multitude of ways. That's why I'm wondering whether or not you ever genuinely thought it would work.

[Wyrmhero he/him]

Wyrm, I was voting for you primarily to 1) see when you'd react, as I know your timezone and have a pretty good idea of your online times, 2) because before Kipper withdrew his vote, I could put actual lynch pressure on you, and it's always interesting seeing how people react to that, and 3) to keep you in the discussion - both because you're a player who's insight is worth having, and because you're sufficiently dangerous that the more opportunities you have to trip up the better!

Edit: colour

Fair enough, Orlok - If nothing else, previous games show I have a big tendancy to put my foot in my mouth. ...But strangely enough, this has only really happened when I'm a Villager? Oh well. I will point out though that my online times have changed quite dramatically this last month .

 

I have to admit, I didn't realise Kas was still playing. I'm wondering if it's worth putting a vote there for the sake of it being Kas, but that would be mean >>.

 

As you may have guessed, I am 100% behind day one lynches. I also question whether it's even possible to get no lynch, considering that all it takes is a miniscule number of players disagreeing.

 

The way I see it, we gain nothing from waiting except a dead player and a loss of a potentially strong Role. The Eliminators are almost certainly going to go for an experienced or dangerous player, and their death tells us absolutely nothing except that which you want to read in it. For example, if Mailliw died (no offence, you're just a very good example here), is it because he has ties with Joe, or has GMed Alvron and Kas as Eliminators? Or is it just that he has played the most games out of anyone here? There's no evidence either way, except for the fact that it's more likely to be the latter. There is also the chance that a player proved themselves to be a threat in the first Cycle, but it's debateable how easy that is.

 

I'm going to put a vote on IRULELIKESTINK, because he voted for phattemer despite saying we're unlikely to see him again this Cycle. I'd like to hear what he hopes to achieve by such a vote when it won't give us any information unless he's actually lynched tomorrow morning.

Edited October 20, 2015 by Wyrmhero

[STINK he/him]

What I mostly mean is that with everyone saying that discussion is probably gonna die etc because Joe's amazing secret super plan that we were all talking about was never even gonna really work, so went back to the method of poke voting those who haven't said anything (or if they have, I haven't noticed it). 

 

And I can't get a longer analysis Wyrm?

[Clanky he/him]

I guess I have to spell this out. The part of the plan that you revealed first...

was severely flawed and quite honestly, can be sabotaged in a multitude of ways. That's why I'm wondering whether or not you ever genuinely thought it would work.

Yes we have been discussing that at length, there are many flaws in that part of the plan but they are not what caused the plan to be scrapped. In fact the main portion of Joe's actual plan involved exploiting some of the "flaws" that his original description of the plan had. The actual reason that it won't work is a misinterpretation of the rules (Or purposeful for malicious intent ) on Joes part. What Joe and I were saying is that you couldn't have known that Joe's plan involved a misinterpretation of the rules.

[Guest]

Yeah, but that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that his reasons later for coming up with the plan have the possibility of being retroactive. Like, "Oh, they realized that the plan was bad, so I'll just say I misread the rules and didn't reveal my entire plan." I realize that the original post was ostensibly not his whole plan. I'm just throwing out possibilities; not really something to argue about.

[RippleGylf she/her]

With that in mind, I have to ask. Who supports a lynch this day and who doesn't? Simply add a yay or nay in your following posts and I will begin tallying it up. I would go back to read everything I've missed, but until my shift finishes I can't dedicate that much attention to this game.

 

I would say Yay, but then I feel like I'd be a hypocrite. I don't want to vote because it would most likely be a villager, with what little info we have. However, we need that info from lynching. Hence my predicament.

 

EDIT: changing Skaa to villager, because that is what I meant. Oh look, I made a typo. Whoop de do.

Edited October 20, 2015 by RippleGylf

[Orlok Tsubodai]

I would say Yay, but then I feel like I'd be a hypocrite. I don't want to vote because it would most likely be a skaa, with what little info we have. However, we need that info from lynching. Hence my predicament.

Whilst I have been following the thread, due to Real Life commitments I haven't been thinking about it as much as I should. Hence, instead of a vote based on serious thread analysis, Ripple.

Confusing whether Skaa or Eliminators are the village, as you have done above, seems to me to be the sort of mistake that is far more likely to occur should you be a Skaa, and therefore have an image of them as the 'good guys' as it were. I would draw parallels between this and my own mistake in LG13, in which I confused Hero and Ren, probably subconsciously due to the fact that the two were my fellow eliminators, in the main doc.

Edited October 21, 2015 by Orlok

[Wyrmhero he/him]

What I mostly mean is that with everyone saying that discussion is probably gonna die etc because Joe's amazing secret super plan that we were all talking about was never even gonna really work, so went back to the method of poke voting those who haven't said anything (or if they have, I haven't noticed it). 

 

And I can't get a longer analysis Wyrm?

 

I've spent all day analysing at work, you'll get what you're given >>.

 

Still, I suppose I can take my vote off of IRULELIKESTINK, if only because some > none. I'd hope all our discussion doesn't just die due to this, considering we had a lot of discussions still going on regardless of that.

 

I don't know where I shall place my vote at present. This whole thing with Joe et al seems to have taken up a large part of our discussions. There's a good amount otherwise, but a lot of people have limited their interactions to it only. I'd like to know Mailliw's thoughts about people other than Joe though, considering most of what he's said has been in response to this. I'd also like to know what this whole 'PoJ' thing is, considering it definitely sounds like collusion. Even if it is truly out-of-game, it would be a fairly decent way to throw people off the scent by referring to things outside like that.

 

I suppose my current question is whether we have any real plans going forward at all. By that I mean, is there any way we can turn our Roles to an advantage despite the fact that most are less useful than in other games due to the lack of PMs and a Seeking Role. Basically, can we find an Eliminator using our abilities in any way other than luck from Tin/Gold and a Lurcher? ...I suppose the more final way exists.

Edited October 20, 2015 by Wyrmhero

[STINK he/him]

We can always make everyone a rioter and direct everyone to the one atium user, and hope that they aren't evil

Oh, and cause I remembered this game that jokes are hated, comment on one or more of these topics:

• Joe and his plan! Or lack of it!
• Maillw and his trusting skills!
• Ripple and her spelling errors!
• Orlok and his quick accusations!
• Stink and him not contributing much
• ^ The above being according to Wyrm! (I think)
• An overall plan!

Edited October 20, 2015 by IrulelikeSTINK