Genders

[DreamEternal]

Genderfluid is totally a valid gender identity; a lot of this stuff isn't nearly as binary as the common culture seems to think it is.

But I don't feel genderfluid. My gender identity is mostly solid in one place, I just don't know where it is.

And I know it is not exactly binary. I know my identity is probably somewhere close to the middle of the scale, but other than that I don't have an idea of where it is, and it doens't help that I have no one to talk about this IRL.

Edited March 11, 2016 by DreamEternal

[Kaymyth]

But I don't feel genderfluid. My gender identity is mostly solid in one place, I just don't know where it is.

And I know it is not exactly binary. I know my identity is probably somewhere close to the middle of the scale, but other than that I don't have an idea of where it is, and it doens't help that I have no one to talk about this IRL.

Genderneutral, even third gender are possibilities, too. Or even something off the scale completely.

The point is: you are you, and nobody has the right to tell you that you are wrong about who you are.

[Curious Anamaximder]

Well, I have decided I am not aromantic, I'm just not good at social interaction

[AnikoliNightmareVision]

This thread is great. That's all I'm gonna say for now, because if I start writing I think I'll be unable to stop and makes lots of typos because I'm not native English speaker and didn't know much of these definitions before and I even in my head have a wrong definition for trans people. So I'll stop now.

[Oversleep]

OK, I pretty much skipped everything after Kobold's post about him being...well, Kobold.

Now, I don't want to come off as insensitive or something. I understand there are people with messed up brain biochemistry (or whatever that was, don't beat me, pleeeease. I am no biologist.). I understand they got problems with gender identity.
I am not really qualified so I won't talk about them, since I see no point in it. Because I don't really researched the issue, so my talking about it would be without any merit.

I want to talk about something else. I've seen posts here "I'm a man, but I don't like X or I am not Yish" and so on; people talking about not fitting stereotypes. Let me tell you something: it doesn't matter.

I like this saying that "real men are not afraid to wear pink". For me, being a man (or a woman, but I am a man and will continue to talk about being a man for shorteness) is not about fitting stereotypes. A man can be a ballet dancer and be perfectly masculine. A man is not afraid to hold the purse for his woman/mother/sister. A man can be a babysitter (or whatever the most stereotypically feminine job there is).
A man can enjoy My Little Pony or W.I.T.C.H. I watched it being 19 years old. Such a good cartoon. This doesn't make me any less of a man.

A woman can be short-haired car mechanic. A woman can be a construction worker (or whatever the most stereotypical man job there is).

For me, they're all men and women. No matter their sexual orientation. Homo, hetero, bi and so on. It doesn't matter.

So I don't really understand why people who identify with one of the two basic genders say there are "something-gendered". Being a man (or a woman) doesn't mean being one thing and one thing only. It's a spectrum. There are different men and different women and not fitting some stereotype or popular view of it doesn't mean you aren't a man or aren't a woman. You are. You are choosing what it means to be a man/woman.

Let me remind you, I'm not talking about people with identification problems (One day I'd call them trans, but I'm not sure whether it's a correct term).

So.....
What I want to say is that I don't really understand why there are dozens of genders. I understand that male/female don't cut it, but that many? Could somebody enlighten me?

P.S.
I wonder what is the influence of the language on the Identity. You see, in Polish verbs have masculine/feminine differences. When I say 'I was', the verb "to be" carries the information about my gender.
Male: "Ja byłem".
Female: "Ja byłam".
When I go on the Internet, I almost instantly know if the other person is male or female. In English, it's all the same.

[DreamEternal]

@Oversleep:

I'd avoid to say "messed up" brain biochemestry. By saying that, you are (unintentionally, I hope) implying they are the problem and should just take medicine and go on with their lifes.

Second, gender identity isn't just about gender norms and social spectations. While I am actualy new to the concept, and can't speak for certain, for some there is also the feeling of one's very body being somehow wrong. It is also mostly unrelated from sexual orientation.

As for people identifying as something other than the "base" genders, I also can't say much. The concept of gender identity is new to me. But some people identify with both genders to varying degrees, either always or cycling between them, and some just don't feel like the concept of gender has any importance to their identities.

Ps: I hope I got things right. I am nowhere near an expert in this field.

[Quiver]

It's also probably important to add that, culturally, there have been societies that have recognised more than two genders.

I admit, I'm not entirely familiar with it, so apologies if I'm inadvertedly insensitive, but, for example, from what I understand, there is a legal, third gender in India called hijra.

There's also a native American concept known as Two Spirits, which...

...well, I'm not entirely sure. It's an idea which -as I understand it- varies greatly between native American people's. Considering I don't even have an understanding of the basics of Native American culture, I'm not even going to attempt describing it, because I will mess it up. I'd recommend checking out the site Rejected Princesses, since that's where I first found out about the concept.

Point is, there is a cultural/historical basis for more than just a binary "man or woman" gender divide in culture.

Edited March 13, 2016 by Quiver

[Oversleep]

@DreamEternal
By no means I meant to imply they are the problem. If this pick of words came off as insensitive, I apologize.
I'd rather say they have a problem. Unless they're OK with this, of course. But if they aren't OK with it, they have a problem (the basic definition of having a problem is something being wrong, right?). They will seek solutions. Some undergo operation of sex change.
...aaaand I don't really know what're the other possibilities.

But one day I came across some article that for some the operation in the end didn't work out too well for them. I am a man of science, I say we gather data. I say we should analyse and compare different outcomes. That's what medicine is about, finding the best solution.

For your second point, about people feeling wrong with their body... I was not talking about them. I understand that there are people like this. That. Like them. People like these people. ARGH! Curse you English!

I wanted to specifically adress people who don't identify as male (or female) just because they do not fit the stereotype. Like (this is gonna be a hyperbole) "I don't really identify as a man because I don't chew bees instead of eating honey, because I am not muscular, because I do not have a 50 cm beard and I am not a lumberjack".
I say: don't let anyone tell you that you're not something. If you're a man, you're a man, no matter your orientation, beliefs, hobbies, opinions, looks or anything. Don't let somebody's opinion influence you.

[Mark IV]

Hmmm.. this page has been .... interesting.

@Oversleep

"I don't really identify as a man because I don't chew bees instead of eating honey."

I know you already said that this was a hyperbole, but I still found it too funny. XD

Either way, I identify as a male. Never had major issues with my gender. Although, my orientation is a completely different story. As you may have guessed, I'm gay. Though never been in a relationship (partly because I'm focusing on studies and good grades and party to do with where I live), I am attracted to other males of my age, one such confession ending in a disaster. quite funny in fact. Made me learn valuable life lessons.

As such, I now have no qualms about my identity or orientation. Sure, coming to terms with my differences from the common society was hard. But not for the usual reasons. I had not doubt I was, in fact gay, but I was afraid that life would be hard.

I live in India, you see. We don't have gay equality rights and amendments in the constitution. Our journey to said rights has barely begun, and I suspect will not end for a long time. This isn't 0 articular encouraging to people in the closet or, as a matter of fact, people outside the closet (though I've never met any).

That is partly why I've not been in a relationship. Thankfully (or probably not), I don't intend to be either, as earlier said, until a later date.

@Quiver

Yes, there is a third gender, 'hijra'. An expected D tradition also follows- (although I will refer to them as H because my autocorrect is prejudiced against that word )

If ever an H begs you for money, and you do give them some money, or food or clothes, they'll tend to bless you. This blessing is taken as a divine boon by many in North India. As a converse (and don't tell me you didn't expect this), if you refuse, they curse you, and this curse is said to last for your whole life.

Honestly, I don't really believe this, but it's still a very convenient myth for them. I wonder who started it.

Hmmm.. that was shorter than I'd expected.

[Arrae]

I've never really questioned my gender much. I'm me, and I'm female, end of story.

 

My orientation is much different: it's a big box with a question mark for an answer. It's not an issue now, because I'm not in a relationship and I don't want to be in a relationship, but I feel like I should try figuring it out sometime before I graduate from college.So far I haven't done much except for warily eye the box and hope certain answers don't pop up, but that's about it.

 

I'm not sure what I would do if I turned out to be a lesbian. My mom says that gays and lesbians are "unnatural" (mostly because they don't produce children). Of course, I don't believe her (and I don't consider one of the main purposes in my life to be continuing my bloodline, either). The problem is that parental relationships would probably be strained for a while if I decided to suddenly introduce my family to my girlfriend.

[Nyali]

Might as well share:

Gender: Female.
Sex: Transwoman.
Orientation: Pansexual.
Romantic Paradigm: Polyamory.
Maritial Status: Married.
 
 
 
 
EDIT:
 

I'm not sure what I would do if I turned out to be a lesbian. My mom says that gays and lesbians are "unnatural" (mostly because they don't produce children). Of course, I don't believe her (and I don't consider one of the main purposes in my life to be continuing my bloodline, either). The problem is that parental relationships would probably be strained for a while if I decided to suddenly introduce my family to my girlfriend.

 

Science has fixed this. Same sex couples of two cisgendered individuals are now capable of having biological children, with the addition of some science. It's easier and significantly cheaper for two ciswomen, but their child will always be a girl due to how genetics works. I'll put the rest of this post behind a spoiler tag because some people are bothered by frank discussions of human reproduction:

For two ciswomen, you take some sperm from a male donor, remove all the genetic material, replace it with the genetic material of the woman who isn't going to carry the baby, and the other woman uses it to artificially inseminate. Two cismen can have something similar done by replacing the genetic material in a donor ovum, but it's very, very expensive because you need to hire a surrogate to carry the child for nine months. It's also more dangerous, I think, because I'd imagine carrying a child that doesn't share genetic material with you may risk the body rejecting it, though I'm sure they have ways to mitigate that by now. I assume, for instance, that you'd want to use the surrogate's ovum. I don't really know much about this procedure though, but some friends of mine are trying to save up for it.

Edited May 23, 2016 by Nyali

[Arrae]

I have a few questions, and I figure that this is probably the place to ask them. So:

 

What is gender identity?

 

How do you know your gender identity?

[phattemer]

Basically, it's what gender you identify as.

It's just something you know naturally, because it's part of your identity. It might take some time to discover, but it's like "finding yourself".

If anyone else has a better definition or a correction, I'm certainly not the most qualified person to answer. M

[Nyali]

I have a few questions, and I figure that this is probably the place to ask them. So:

What is gender identity?

How do you know your gender identity?

Wow, those are quite hard questions to answer, because the answers are so personal. Not personal in the "private stuff I don't want to share" sense, but personal in the "I can only answer for myself, my answer only applies to me, and very likely won't help you much, if at all" sense.

First, to answer your question, we need to establish something. what is gender? Gender is a social construct. Our society treats men and women differently, and men and women see themselves differently. People can say all they want that your gender doesn't (or shouldn't) matter and everyone should treat people the same regardless of their gender, but I think that's wrong.

Gender affects everything you do. How you sit, how you walk, how people react to you and what their initial assumptions of you entail, how you dress, how you stand, how you talk, how often you talk, what you say and how you say it, how you raise your voice to be heard, how you breathe, how you prepare for work in the morning, how you shop, how you handle various emotions, ... I can keep going with this, on and on. I am very aware of these differences. I have to be, every time I speak, every time I breathe.

I'm not saying there's one "right" way to do these things determined by your gender. But, I am saying that your gender changes and affects these things, and so many more, and on a subconscious level for most people, especially cisgendered people.

So, what is gender identity? Gender identity is which social concept of gender you feel most suits you, which one feels right.

How do you tell what gender identity is yours? That's not really a question that has an answer, but there are definitely signs to look out for that suggest that your current gender expression is out of sync with your gender identity.

The most prevalent of these is the feeling that your body looks wrong in the mirror. Many people who experience gender dysphoria have an eating disorder that results from thinking something is wrong with your body but not knowing what. Personally, I was anorexic as a teenager, because when your body looks that wrong to you, a "logical" next step is to try taking drastic measures hoping that something you do will fix whatever it is that's wrong.

Most signs are pretty individual though. And the worst part is that they are often only obvious in hindsight. I constantly borrowed clothing from my girlfriends, I would assume feminine standing postures when not paying attention, I avoided mirrors, I always identified with female characters in stories I read, I always chose female avatars in videogames (and spent hours playing dress-up with the character if the game had that feature), I was constantly mocked for being so feminine, and so on and so on every since I was fifteen. And I still didn't realize I was trans until I was thirty (though I was openly identifying as gender queer for a couple years prior to that point).

In hindsight, it's so absurdly obvious. Heck, most of my friends' reactions were along the lines of "well, duh" and "I was wondering when you were going to come out" and "oh, that makes so much sense." But, it isn't obvious, it isn't easy to see or understand, and it isn't easy to accept.

By the way, if you (or anyone else) wants to ask me any questions about my experiences, feel free to PM me. I'm always interested in talking to people about such things, because without such discussions, understanding can't happen. My narrative is not the stereotypical one.

/walloftext

[Quiver]

So...random question, on the topic of gender (but mostly from an artistic point of view).

I...don't write as much as I should. But when I do, I tend to write female characters. Between Oregon (and off site), I have three active Rpg characters; all female. When I play a game, if there's a female option, I'll usually go with that (on the second playthrough, at least).

My brother gave me grief over it when we were younger, too.

I admit, that stuff? Part of why I used to question my gender/sexual identity. These days, I've reached a point where I just kinda shrug and go along with it...

But I'm curious if anyone else has thar feeling, where you feel particularly comfortable writing for the opposite gender.

Edited June 12, 2016 by Quiver

[Left]

I generally play as female characters in video games as well, and the last time I tried to write I started out with a female MC.

I've never been very uncomfortable with it, it's just a habit I came into fairly naturally.

[TwiLyghtSansSparkles]

So...random question, on the topic of gender (but mostly from an artistic point of view).

I...don't write as much as I hold. But when I do, I tend to write female characters. Between Oregon and off site, I have three active Rpg characters; all female. When I play a game, if there's a female option, I'll usually go with that (on the second playthrough, at least).

My brother gave me grief over it when we were younger, too.

I admit, that stuff? Part of why I used to question my gender identity. These days, I've reached a point where I just kinda shrug and go along with it...

But I'm curious if anyone else has thar feeling, where you feel particularly comfortable writing for the opposite gender.

 

I'd say I'm pretty comfortable writing both male and female characters. (As might be evidenced in my RPG characters; I have, if my count is correct, four male characters and three female ones, plus more if you count backstory.) I don't know why. I suppose being comfortable writing male characters could come down to being close with my younger brother growing up, to the point that when I was a teen, I'd often hang out with his friends if invited along. Then again, I'm equally comfortable with female characters, so….eh, it could be background, it could be something else. 

[DreamEternal]

I don't think checking the gender of characters you write is a good way of measuring one's gender identity except in extreme cases... but I don't feel like regular gender concepts fit me well, and when I write I often include at least one character that plays with the idea of gender in non-standard ways.

Other than that, I write male and female characters with more or less the same degree of comfort.

[Quiver]

I don't think checking the gender of characters you write is a good way of measuring one's gender identity except in extreme cases... but I don't feel like regular gender concepts fit me well, and when I write I often include at least one character that plays with the idea of gender in non-standard ways.

Other than that, I write male and female characters with more or less the same degree of comfort.

Just to reiterate, I don't think of it as a measure anymore...but when I was younger and more concerned with that sort of thing? Absolutely something I thought about.

So, Er...yeah. Apologies for the thread de-railing? As I say, it was anexperience I was just curious about asking.

[I Am Witless]

This thread is rising from the dead more often that Jasnah does!

Awkward confession on my part: For some reason I always imagine the other members on this site are female. I haven't really been introduced to fanboys who like books (I know 198,528,327,309 guys who like video games, movies, the "masculine" stuff. butdon'tyoutellmewhatisforboysandgirls'causeI'mateenagegirlwhowatcheslegoninjagoandIloveit *cough*). Anyway, for some reason I'm kind of surprised that there aren't more ladies on here, or at least, ladies who replied. I know that I'm going completely off-topic on a thread discussing gender, sexual, and physical identity, but do any of you think that there is a reason for the discrepancy? If there is one?

[Ammanas]

33 minutes ago, I am Witless said:

but do any of you think that there is a reason for the discrepancy? If there is one?

There are tons of guys that love fantasy and science fiction so I don't really know where you got the idea that books are more of a girl thing. It depends on the circle of people you hang out with I guess.