Claincy Posted July 19, 2015 Report Share Posted July 19, 2015 There's not a lot that I'd have to say that hasn't already been said here. I'm physically male, and I identify as a male. I don't have any deep reasoning for feeling specifically male, as far as I am concerned that is simply what I am *shrug*. Like most people here I don't fit well with the male stereotype, simply saying I'm a geek should give you a good enough idea. I do believe men and women are different, but that doesn't make either gender better and it doesn't mean activities/professions/hobbies/whatevers are really for one or the other. I have a twin sister and growing up we did a lot of the same activities and played with a lot of the same games and toys. And yeah, she was more interested in some of the traditionally "feminine" toys than I was and I don't think that was just a social effect. I personally suspect that girls are more commonly inclined towards some things, and guys to others but it's a relatively minor thing and experience, personality & society have a much much greater impact than any inherit gender bias. (I expect some people disagree with me on the base inclinations, but that's fine ) But more importantly I am of the mind that society should not discriminate between them, labeling some activities as masculine or feminine or disparaging in any way anyone who doesn't fit what they personally think is masculine or feminine. There are plenty of things that I find strange or difficult to understand, but that doesn't mean I think less of someone who is or does those things. "Man up" is a phrase that I really dislike as I think it kinda exemplifies some of the worst parts of the stereotypes and it can really hurt people. As a specific example that relates to me: I feel like one of the less talked about aspects of these stereotypes is posture. As a man I'm "expected" if anything to stand/sit/lounge in a strong, perhaps dominant, manner. Curling up in a chair or couch (at least in company) is seen as showing more vulnerability & weakness and being more "feminine". It also happens to be how I feel comfortable sitting. I think, well, actually I'm pretty certain, that part of the reason that I tend to curl up like that is that (as a general statement) I don't enjoy physical contact with other people and I have social anxiety/fear of others. So in that sense in my case it is demonstrating vulnerability to some extent. But regardless of that this should not be considered representative of a particular gender. (On a similar, more well-tread note, by those stereotypes as a "man" I'm "supposed" to just suck it up or "man up" and I know from first-hand experience that simply bottling up my fear, anxiety, etc doesn't work. Oh sure I can do it, but it's not worth the long-term harm it causes.) 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kestrel Posted July 19, 2015 Author Report Share Posted July 19, 2015 There is only one reason to ever use the phrase "Be a man" - when quoting Mulan - that's it 9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delightful Posted July 20, 2015 Report Share Posted July 20, 2015 I've been told to be a man before, and replied with "I can never be a man." I got a sigh that said "gee Delightful, grow up you know what I mean" but......nope. It's a stupid concept. On an interesting language/cultural note, if you tell someone to be a man (mensch) in Yiddish, it doesn't mean bottle up your feelings. It means 'be a polite, considerate well-mannered person". I've always found that interesting. I've sometimws borrowed "woman up" from Gogo in Big Hero Six - because that meant 'be brave and do what you need to do.' Re curling up on the couch - just my two cents, I never thought of it as a gendered thing, however I personally wouldn't feel so comfortable curling up with guests in the house. Hope alls ok with your anxiety 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orlion Blight Posted July 20, 2015 Report Share Posted July 20, 2015 There is only one reason to ever use the phrase "Be a man" - when quoting Mulan - that's it Specifically the second time the song appears, when all but the main, lame guy dress in drag 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Claincy Posted July 20, 2015 Report Share Posted July 20, 2015 There is only one reason to ever use the phrase "Be a man" - when quoting Mulan - that's it That is a valid exception On an interesting language/cultural note, if you tell someone to be a man (mensch) in Yiddish, it doesn't mean bottle up your feelings. It means 'be a polite, considerate well-mannered person". I've always found that interesting. That is interesting, I like that meaning much better. Re curling up on the couch - just my two cents, I never thought of it as a gendered thing, however I personally wouldn't feel so comfortable curling up with guests in the house. Hope alls ok with your anxiety Thanks. I think the best way to describe it is under control, it doesn't stop me from doing things I want to anymore, it just makes some things a lot scarier and a lot harder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Honor Spren Posted July 20, 2015 Report Share Posted July 20, 2015 I strongly believe that men and women are equal but different. The strongest person in the world will always be a man; a man will never be able to give birth. There are many differences between genders, and they complement each other. Both are needed. I personally believe marriage is between a man and a woman and that the only genders are male and female. I'm very traditional in that respect. But I won't insult you if you believe differently! I won't care if you're LGBT (and Q now, right?), I just care how you act. Whether or not you're a good person. Judging someone based on just one thing like that is, quite frankly, ridiculous. (To clarify, this is in response to Mr. Angry Pants' comments. Whew, what a mess.) I apologize in advance if I've offended anyone. I don't mean to do it! Call me out on it if it is and I'll clarify. Completely with you on this. But. . . When you said strongest person you meant physically right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orlion Blight Posted July 21, 2015 Report Share Posted July 21, 2015 "Equal but different" is a troubling phrase to me. It calls to mind the "separate but equal" legal philosophy of Jim Crow days. Invariably, one tends to focus on the "different" part at the expense of the "equal", mainly because it provides an "excuse" and a flimsy one at that. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kestrel Posted July 23, 2015 Author Report Share Posted July 23, 2015 "Equal but different" is a troubling phrase to me. It calls to mind the "separate but equal" legal philosophy of Jim Crow days. Invariably, one tends to focus on the "different" part at the expense of the "equal", mainly because it provides an "excuse" and a flimsy one at that. I think the meaning behind the whole "equal but different" thing is about truly accepting that genders are different, and properly catering to everyone equally. But I do see what you're saying, and most of the time it ends up like your example. Sigh. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
navybrandt Posted July 23, 2015 Report Share Posted July 23, 2015 I think "Separate but equal" is vastly different than "Different but equal" One is segregation and one is acknowledging differences. I know some people disagree, but women and men are just generally better at certain things than the other gender. This world would be pretty bad if there were only men or only woman (even ignoring the obvious reproduction problem). Our differences compliment each other nicely. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bort Posted July 23, 2015 Report Share Posted July 23, 2015 I'm male, although if you saw my cleavage you might doubt that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ParadoxicalZen Posted July 23, 2015 Report Share Posted July 23, 2015 Me...I'm just a Paradox ^^ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kestrel Posted July 25, 2015 Author Report Share Posted July 25, 2015 (edited) I think "Separate but equal" is vastly different than "Different but equal" One is segregation and one is acknowledging differences. I know some people disagree, but women and men are just generally better at certain things than the other gender. This world would be pretty bad if there were only men or only woman (even ignoring the obvious reproduction problem). Our differences compliment each other nicely. I disagree a tad on the fact that the two genders are better at different things (yes, there is a trend but I think that a man can do anything a woman can or vice versa) (this is, of course, ignoring reproduction, but in all honesty that has nothing to do with what gender you see yourself as; a trans male can still have a child) because it isn't totally about gender, its about who you are as a person and how bad you want to do the thing. I do agree with the first statement, especially when put in that context. Edited July 25, 2015 by LarkoftheRiver Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delightful Posted July 25, 2015 Report Share Posted July 25, 2015 When it comes down to it, all people are different. All people are also equal in their right to be respected and treated with dignity. I don't think gender necessarily even has to come into it. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quiver Posted July 27, 2015 Report Share Posted July 27, 2015 When it comes down to it, all people are different. All people are also equal in their right to be respected and treated with dignity. I don't think gender necessarily even has to come into it. Absolutely true, in theory. In practice, it doesn't actually work out that way- look at... the vast swathes of human history where women weren't supposed to be able to work, own property, or vote. Then the fact that gender stereotypes and renforcement are very totally A Thing (at least up until about this generation), and... I agree, people should be treated with respect and dignity; gender should have no baring on how we treat someone, the same way that their race shouldn't, or their religion shouldn't. But I kind of sucks that there are people today who do still enforce that kind of stuff, whether actively, passively, conscious or not... (Not.. really disagreeing with you, since I agree- you're right, how someone views themselves shouldn't factor into stuff. But the reality is pretty starkly different, i think...) ...And actually, while I'm here... Would anyone who identifies as trans mind if I PM'd you? I'm considering including a trans character in a story I've been bating around and I'd kind of like it if I could ask some questions and stuff as research... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kestrel Posted July 27, 2015 Author Report Share Posted July 27, 2015 Absolutely true, in theory. In practice, it doesn't actually work out that way- look at... the vast swathes of human history where women weren't supposed to be able to work, own property, or vote. Then the fact that gender stereotypes and renforcement are very totally A Thing (at least up until about this generation), and... I agree, people should be treated with respect and dignity; gender should have no baring on how we treat someone, the same way that their race shouldn't, or their religion shouldn't. But I kind of sucks that there are people today who do still enforce that kind of stuff, whether actively, passively, conscious or not... (Not.. really disagreeing with you, since I agree- you're right, how someone views themselves shouldn't factor into stuff. But the reality is pretty starkly different, i think...) ...And actually, while I'm here... Would anyone who identifies as trans mind if I PM'd you? I'm considering including a trans character in a story I've been bating around and I'd kind of like it if I could ask some questions and stuff as research... The reason why the reality is different is honestly because of the gender roles, not just women only being allowed in the house, but also the man of the house was expected to do all the manual labor. Oh heck the word man is even in manual (idk if that has any bearing on the word choice however) You're welcome to pm me, if I can't answer it I can always dump the question on one of my trans followers on tumblr. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quiver Posted July 27, 2015 Report Share Posted July 27, 2015 The reason why the reality is different is honestly because of the gender roles, not just women only being allowed in the house, but also the man of the house was expected to do all the manual labor. Oh heck the word man is even in manual (idk if that has any bearing on the word choice however) You're welcome to pm me, if I can't answer it I can always dump the question on one of my trans followers on tumblr. Absaloutley! I think I missed a bit of my point -that biological SEX causes tension in society, even before considering for gender, enforcement of stereotypes, right and wrong ideas etc- but gender stereotypes are certainly harmful, to both sides. And thanks for the offer! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThirdGen Posted July 27, 2015 Report Share Posted July 27, 2015 Biological sex everyone understands. Gender roles everyone understands. In between the two is the concept of gender, which frankly, neuroscience needs to catch up to. Culture can't grok the concept until the gray areas are settled. And we know what people love to bring in to fill in the gaps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Windrunner Posted July 29, 2015 Report Share Posted July 29, 2015 The reason why the reality is different is honestly because of the gender roles, not just women only being allowed in the house, but also the man of the house was expected to do all the manual labor. Oh heck the word man is even in manual (idk if that has any bearing on the word choice however) Almost unrelated, but I love language so this piqued my interest and I did some quick googling. The word manual can be traced back to the Latin word manus, meaning "hand". I imagine this is why the words for hand in many Romance languages look similar, such as main in French or mano in Spanish. So I'd say this is probably more related to labor done by hand than any gender thing. Fun facts! 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bort Posted July 31, 2015 Report Share Posted July 31, 2015 Almost unrelated, but I love language so this piqued my interest and I did some quick googling. The word manual can be traced back to the Latin word manus, meaning "hand". I imagine this is why the words for hand in many Romance languages look similar, such as main in French or mano in Spanish. So I'd say this is probably more related to labor done by hand than any gender thing. Fun facts! Insert masturbation joke here. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Titan Arum Posted July 31, 2015 Report Share Posted July 31, 2015 I love that this thread is still going strong and that it's been respectful since that one person was banned. Another prime example why this community is so amazing. I have a twin sister and growing up we did a lot of the same activities and played with a lot of the same games and toys. And yeah, she was more interested in some of the traditionally "feminine" toys than I was and I don't think that was just a social effect. I personally suspect that girls are more commonly inclined towards some things, and guys to others but it's a relatively minor thing and experience, personality & society have a much much greater impact than any inherit gender bias. (I expect some people disagree with me on the base inclinations, but that's fine ) But more importantly I am of the mind that society should not discriminate between them, labeling some activities as masculine or feminine or disparaging in any way anyone who doesn't fit what they personally think is masculine or feminine. There are plenty of things that I find strange or difficult to understand, but that doesn't mean I think less of someone who is or does those things. I too have a twin sister. We also had an older sister. As a result we had a lot of "feminine toys" around the house but a lot of non-gender specific toys as well. I would frequently play with the dolls/barbies/etc., because they were there already. I remember days, however, that my sisters would force me to play with them and their dolls when I didn't want to. There wasn't much I could do when big sister and twin sister tackled me, sat on me, and made me play as Ken to their Barbie. Ha, fond memories. Granted, I had my hot wheels too, which my twin sister and I discovered were super fun to race down the stairway banister (which was perfectly shaped to create a track that made it impossible for the cars to fall off of! The best part was that they slammed into a brick wall at full speed and sometimes blew up into pieces!). On a separate note, lord Claincy, did you ever have twin sense with your sister? Where you guys could finish each others sentences, or had an inkling that something was up with your sister?This happened on many occasions with my twin sister and me and as a result we never were allowed to be on the same team for games. Cranium? We beat everyone. Apples to Apples? Yep. However, there also was that day my sister got in a horrible car accident. I knew. I knew deep in my soul when it happened and that something was wrong. It was one of the scariest days of my life, even though it didn't happen to me directly. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voidus Posted July 31, 2015 Report Share Posted July 31, 2015 I also occasionally identify as a slowpoke. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Titan Arum Posted August 1, 2015 Report Share Posted August 1, 2015 Was your sister OK? As I was driving home from work I had a feeling something was wrong with my sister. I got home and couldn't find her. All of the lights were on and the backdoor was open. I had been frantically calling her up to that point to no avail. Finally someone picked up and it wasn't my sister. A stranger, sounding distant to my ears, telling me that whoever I was trying to call was in a bad car accident. I asked where, and found out it was only two blocks from home. I ran there and saw carnage. The car she was a passenger in had been t-boned by oncoming traffic as her driver was trying to turn onto our street. All the damage was on the passenger side, where she was. I looked in, screaming for her, because the damage looked crazy. The car door crumpled over her body because the seat back had failed and at impact, fallen back. She was lucky, because instead of the door slamming into her, it went over her body! She was awake but delirious. I asked how she was. Her response was priceless: "Where's my Carl's Jr.?". I knew she would be okay. In the end she had a few scrapes and bruises and a concussion. She was fortunate. But it was so weird that my twin intuition knew something was wrong. That was the most powerful twin connection we've ever had. Or at least I've had with her. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delightful Posted August 1, 2015 Report Share Posted August 1, 2015 Titan, how does twin sense work? Can you guess what the other is thinkingn or what? I've always been curious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Claincy Posted August 1, 2015 Report Share Posted August 1, 2015 I love that this thread is still going strong and that it's been respectful since that one person was banned. Another prime example why this community is so amazing. I too have a twin sister. We also had an older sister. As a result we had a lot of "feminine toys" around the house but a lot of non-gender specific toys as well. I would frequently play with the dolls/barbies/etc., because they were there already. I remember days, however, that my sisters would force me to play with them and their dolls when I didn't want to. There wasn't much I could do when big sister and twin sister tackled me, sat on me, and made me play as Ken to their Barbie. Ha, fond memories. Granted, I had my hot wheels too, which my twin sister and I discovered were super fun to race down the stairway banister (which was perfectly shaped to create a track that made it impossible for the cars to fall off of! The best part was that they slammed into a brick wall at full speed and sometimes blew up into pieces!). On a separate note, lord Claincy, did you ever have twin sense with your sister? Where you guys could finish each others sentences, or had an inkling that something was up with your sister?This happened on many occasions with my twin sister and me and as a result we never were allowed to be on the same team for games. Cranium? We beat everyone. Apples to Apples? Yep. However, there also was that day my sister got in a horrible car accident. I knew. I knew deep in my soul when it happened and that something was wrong. It was one of the scariest days of my life, even though it didn't happen to me directly. Titan, how does twin sense work? Can you guess what the other is thinkingn or what? I've always been curious. We joke about having a telepathic connection quite a bit (or we have in the past anyway) but really it's nothing that mystical. Twins tend to spend a very large amount of time together when growing up, particularly as we were home-schooled for some time. Naturally that means that we know and understand eachother pretty well and have a lot of shared experiences to draw on as well as a similar way of thinking. So we can often guess what the other is thinking from limited information, we've been known to finish eachothers sentences (less as we got older and diverged more) and we do very well together in cranium, pictionary and other similar games. (You sometimes get times where one of us has drawn something that, to both of us clearly leads to the right answer, but makes little sense to others ) But actually sensing eachothers pain? Nah. I mean, I expect we have a higher degree of empathy for eachother and if something is different, strange or wrong we're more likely to notice from subtle signs, but there's nothing magic or psychic about it. Having a twin is awesome, I'd highly recommend it if it were something you could choose. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Windreader Posted August 4, 2015 Report Share Posted August 4, 2015 (edited) I'm female. Nothing much for me to say on that other that you should be yourself, no matter what social expectations there are. A girl should be able to have a "guy's" hairstyle, and a guy should be able to wear a skirt. We joke about having a telepathic connection quite a bit (or we have in the past anyway) but really it's nothing that mystical. Twins tend to spend a very large amount of time together when growing up, particularly as we were home-schooled for some time. Naturally that means that we know and understand eachother pretty well and have a lot of shared experiences to draw on as well as a similar way of thinking. So we can often guess what the other is thinking from limited information, we've been known to finish eachothers sentences (less as we got older and diverged more) and we do very well together in cranium, pictionary and other similar games. (You sometimes get times where one of us has drawn something that, to both of us clearly leads to the right answer, but makes little sense to others ) But actually sensing eachothers pain? Nah. I mean, I expect we have a higher degree of empathy for eachother and if something is different, strange or wrong we're more likely to notice from subtle signs, but there's nothing magic or psychic about it. Having a twin is awesome, I'd highly recommend it if it were something you could choose. I'm sure it is, but personally, I like having a younger sister. Edited August 4, 2015 by Windreader Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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