Mid-Range Game 73: SE and Taxes

[CoderDrag0n8 He/They]

2 hours ago, KaladinsSenseOfHumorSpren said:

https://www.17thshard.com/forums/topic/56238-seacropolis/page/5/#findComment-1853442

Thank you!

[Wonko the Sane he/him]

Oh, this is neat. I'll join, playing Prof. Ashford Longfellow, an avid anthropologist and field agent for the Abundance. Though originally Scadrian, Ashford has spent over five years in deep cover as a brewer on Threnody, happily documenting the local culture and providing regular updates to his superiors. Recently, he became embroiled in a conflict with some other off-worlders in the town of Crimson, fighting over a powerful artifact (MR64). During this period, he took over the running of the Crimson Tavern from the murdered tavernkeeper, determined not to let the town fall into chaos due to outsider callousness. He's remained in that role since then, serving locals and travelers alike.

[Kasimir he/him]

Alright soddit.

Signing up as Mendacious, the local hermit. Will work out everything else later when I have time.

[The Unknown Medallion he/him]

46 minutes ago, Kasimir said:

Alright soddit.

Signing up as Mendacious, the local hermit. Will work out everything else later when I have time.

Sodded!

[The Unknown Medallion he/him]

Sign-ups closed, Cycle One coming soon.

[The Unknown Medallion he/him]

MR73 - Cycle One: In the Mourning

The Shades are in town for a funeral. 

The funeral hadn't happened yet, but with luck, the Bounty Hunter would make it soon. The Bounty Hunter peaked out from his alcove. The Shades roamed the streets, an ever-present danger. The town would wake soon, and they were in for a rude awakening. The Fortress Constables had arrived.

The Target would know the Constabulary were coming, and would have to fake surprise. It would be the perfect opportunity to catch them.

The Bounty Hunter smiled.

~

Welcome to MR73 - Cycle One!

All GMPMs should be sent out, if you didn't receive one, please PM me.

The voting spreadsheet is located here:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/13f9min4PbGoKxQRupbYebIvEWvdruQneUoTA_7hNnPs/edit?usp=drivesdk

Things to Note:

• PMs are open, but if you send a PM, you will receive +1 vote.
• Votes can be lodged in the spreadsheet linked above. Place the name of your intended target in the leftmost empty column next to your name. You should never delete anything from the spreadsheet. 
• There is no vote minimum.
• Ties will be randomly determined.
• This cycle will end at 10:00 PM Mountain Time in two days, on Saturday, July 5th.
• Have fun!

Players:

Spoiler

1. @KaladinsSenseOfHumorSpren Marna
2. @StrikerEZ
3.  @TwinStorm as Rocky
4. @ThatOneWorldhopper as Worldy
5. @|TJ|
6. @Sparker as Honesty Baker
7. @DrakeMarshall as Scarface
8. @CoderDrag0n8 as CD
9. @Wonko the Sane as Prof. Ashford Longfellow
10. @Kasimir as Mendacious

 

[StrikerEZ he/him]

2 hours ago, The Unknown Order said:

You should never delete anything from the spreadsheet.

I assume this means in later cycles? Or can we only cast one vote in the spreadsheet? And we can’t change it throughout the day?

[Kasimir he/him]

2 hours ago, StrikerEZ said:

I assume this means in later cycles? Or can we only cast one vote in the spreadsheet? And we can’t change it throughout the day?

Vote One, Vote Two, Vote Three etc are for subsequent votes in the same cycle - the tab at the bottom says cycle one. When we move to cycle two, it'll be a different tab.

Having a migraine right now, but Drake welcome back

@The Unknown Order Yo, when I'm less sick do you want me to fix up your spreadsheet again the way I did for that limited posts game?

[Sparker He/Him]

Good Morning. Who is new In Town?

[StrikerEZ he/him]

I will also vote for Drake. This is how we show people we love them, right?

[Sparker He/Him]

What has Drake done?

[Wonko the Sane he/him]

Hello, everyone. I'm overtired and busy today, but have time for some classic Wonko mech analysis™.

Bounty Hunter/Target: Notably, this duo don't actually have different win conditions, so I think it's better to treat as just a pair of mutually exclusive Power Roles. Of the two, I think the Target is undeniably stronger for the Village (and, notably is completely useless to the elims). The Bounty Hunter at best buys the Village an extra cycle or two of survival time, while the Target gives us a huge information advantage. So, assuming both the Bounty Hunter and Target are Villagers, we want the Bounty Hunter to die first (in fact, even the Bounty Hunter wants that, because they still have a Village wincon). This is also true if both the Bounty Hunter and Target are Elims; we want the eliminators to get redundant information they already know, not gain a vote resistance. The only case where the Village wants the Bounty Hunter to win is if the Bounty Hunter is Village and the Target is an Elim (and even then, the fail state is just "neither team gets a useful Power Role", so it's not critical).

Based on that, I advise the Bounty Hunter to hold back on pursuing the Target for now. Instead, watch them, and try and figure out their alignment. If you're confident that they're an eliminator then you can go for it, but if you suspect that they're a villager, your goal should actually be to keep the Target safe until you die.

Blood Shedding: This mechanic turns a lot of what we know about this game on its head. Try and remember that as you're doing analysis and getting reads -- your hard-won instincts about Elim behavior may not be as valid here, as the motives are very different. For one thing, hammers are both easier to pull off (as many players will have random extra votes on them) and much riskier (as the elims have a lot more to lose from extra votes than we do).

Notably, it becomes much easier to pick off active players, as the more engaged you are in the exe, the more likely you are to get extra votes on you in the next cycle. This is a major Elim advantage; it encourages us to be nearly as cautious with our votes as they are. HOWEVER, this disadvantage is mitigated the more centralized the exe becomes; if the winning vote has five voters, they're all much safer than if there were only two of them. Now, I'm not entirely sure yet whether that means we should be trying to concentrate the vote; this is a difficult mechanic to wrap my head around. But it is definitely a dynamic we should be aware of.

Flame Kindling: This is quietly a huge deal; it's obviously got a cost to use, but literally everyone in this game effectively has vote manip. It is going to be difficult to be certain who will end up exed, and any Elim who isn't facing pressure has the power to really gum up the works. There is going to be a lot of chaos, so be ready for that, and never treat the vote as a sure thing. Also, don't be afraid to use this; I know putting yourself in the line of fire is risky, but like I said above, extra votes are much more dangerous to the Elims than they are to us.

Running at Night: Frankly, unless you are a serious candidate for the exe, this is almost always going to be worth it. The Village thrives on information and communication. Now, the Village have less secrets in this game than we might in others, so there's less reason to communicate privately instead of openly, but if you have some information or plan that's better kept secret, using a PM is almost always a good tradeoff in this game.

That's what I've got for now. I also have a few rules questions, though, @The Unknown Order:

1) Is the action to Kindle a Fire submitted privately, in the GM PM? I'd assume so, but I want to check to be sure.

2) "Votecounts in writeups will not include number totals, only who voted upon who." I've got a lot of questions about the specifics here. Does this non-numerical vote count include votes from non-player sources? For example, if no one votes for me, but I send a PM, will I show up in this vote tally as having received a vote? Or will my extra votes be hidden, because it wasn't cast by a player? What about Kindling a Fire: if I Kindle a Fire next to someone, will I show up in the tally as having voted for them? Will it simply show that someone Kindled a Fire, but not who? Or will the entire thing be left out of the writeup, because it wasn't caused by player votes?

3) The Elim victory condition is stated in the rules as outnumbering the Village. However, with all the extra votes being thrown around in this game, along with the Bounty Hunter's potential vote resistance, it's entirely possible (albeit very difficult) for a minority Village to still win the game. Is the victory condition in the rules a mistake, or does a Constabulary win ignore any possibility for the Village to turn the game around?

4) Does the Elim Kill shed blood? The rules don't say so, so I'd guess not; but since it is still a kill, I thought I should ask, to be certain.

[DrakeMarshall he/him]

Oh neat the game started.

For my next trick, I'll any% speedrun the simple rules

2 hours ago, Sparker said:

What has Drake done?

I ate the last spotted dick pudding in the fridge.

And I'd do it again.

But hey look I'm pretty sure I saw TJ kicking puppies we should probably all see what he has to say for himself if you ask me and asking me is a great idea 

[The Unknown Medallion he/him]

9 hours ago, Kasimir said:

Vote One, Vote Two, Vote Three etc are for subsequent votes in the same cycle - the tab at the bottom says cycle one. When we move to cycle two, it'll be a different tab.

Having a migraine right now, but Drake welcome back

@The Unknown Order Yo, when I'm less sick do you want me to fix up your spreadsheet again the way I did for that limited posts game?

@StrikerEZ, this is accurate. 

That would be appreciated, but don't feel obligated. 

56 minutes ago, Wonko the Sane said:

Hello, everyone. I'm overtired and busy today, but have time for some classic Wonko mech analysis™.

Bounty Hunter/Target: Notably, this duo don't actually have different win conditions, so I think it's better to treat as just a pair of mutually exclusive Power Roles. Of the two, I think the Target is undeniably stronger for the Village (and, notably is completely useless to the elims). The Bounty Hunter at best buys the Village an extra cycle or two of survival time, while the Target gives us a huge information advantage. So, assuming both the Bounty Hunter and Target are Villagers, we want the Bounty Hunter to die first (in fact, even the Bounty Hunter wants that, because they still have a Village wincon). This is also true if both the Bounty Hunter and Target are Elims; we want the eliminators to get redundant information they already know, not gain a vote resistance. The only case where the Village wants the Bounty Hunter to win is if the Bounty Hunter is Village and the Target is an Elim (and even then, the fail state is just "neither team gets a useful Power Role", so it's not critical).

Based on that, I advise the Bounty Hunter to hold back on pursuing the Target for now. Instead, watch them, and try and figure out their alignment. If you're confident that they're an eliminator then you can go for it, but if you suspect that they're a villager, your goal should actually be to keep the Target safe until you die.

Blood Shedding: This mechanic turns a lot of what we know about this game on its head. Try and remember that as you're doing analysis and getting reads -- your hard-won instincts about Elim behavior may not be as valid here, as the motives are very different. For one thing, hammers are both easier to pull off (as many players will have random extra votes on them) and much riskier (as the elims have a lot more to lose from extra votes than we do).

Notably, it becomes much easier to pick off active players, as the more engaged you are in the exe, the more likely you are to get extra votes on you in the next cycle. This is a major Elim advantage; it encourages us to be nearly as cautious with our votes as they are. HOWEVER, this disadvantage is mitigated the more centralized the exe becomes; if the winning vote has five voters, they're all much safer than if there were only two of them. Now, I'm not entirely sure yet whether that means we should be trying to concentrate the vote; this is a difficult mechanic to wrap my head around. But it is definitely a dynamic we should be aware of.

Flame Kindling: This is quietly a huge deal; it's obviously got a cost to use, but literally everyone in this game effectively has vote manip. It is going to be difficult to be certain who will end up exed, and any Elim who isn't facing pressure has the power to really gum up the works. There is going to be a lot of chaos, so be ready for that, and never treat the vote as a sure thing. Also, don't be afraid to use this; I know putting yourself in the line of fire is risky, but like I said above, extra votes are much more dangerous to the Elims than they are to us.

Running at Night: Frankly, unless you are a serious candidate for the exe, this is almost always going to be worth it. The Village thrives on information and communication. Now, the Village have less secrets in this game than we might in others, so there's less reason to communicate privately instead of openly, but if you have some information or plan that's better kept secret, using a PM is almost always a good tradeoff in this game.

That's what I've got for now. I also have a few rules questions, though, @The Unknown Order:

1) Is the action to Kindle a Fire submitted privately, in the GM PM? I'd assume so, but I want to check to be sure.

2) "Votecounts in writeups will not include number totals, only who voted upon who." I've got a lot of questions about the specifics here. Does this non-numerical vote count include votes from non-player sources? For example, if no one votes for me, but I send a PM, will I show up in this vote tally as having received a vote? Or will my extra votes be hidden, because it wasn't cast by a player? What about Kindling a Fire: if I Kindle a Fire next to someone, will I show up in the tally as having voted for them? Will it simply show that someone Kindled a Fire, but not who? Or will the entire thing be left out of the writeup, because it wasn't caused by player votes?

3) The Elim victory condition is stated in the rules as outnumbering the Village. However, with all the extra votes being thrown around in this game, along with the Bounty Hunter's potential vote resistance, it's entirely possible (albeit very difficult) for a minority Village to still win the game. Is the victory condition in the rules a mistake, or does a Constabulary win ignore any possibility for the Village to turn the game around?

4) Does the Elim Kill shed blood? The rules don't say so, so I'd guess not; but since it is still a kill, I thought I should ask, to be certain.

1. Correct. Standard action. 

2. Only names will be published. Essentially, if it isn't in the public voting spreadsheet, it isn't mentioned in the writeup. The writeup will just be a formatted version of the public spreadsheet at the end of the cycle. 

3. I don't think an elim team can lose with proper play. I may be wrong, and if so, I'll have a conversation with Araris. Certain scenarios with the Bounty Hunter may be considered parity, despite numerically not being so. If the elims need to make a mistake to lose, I will not require them to not make that mistake. They will simply win.

4. It does not.

[DrakeMarshall he/him]

oh huh there's a voting spreadsheet

I bet that makes vote tallies so much easier huh

[The Unknown Medallion he/him]

3 minutes ago, DrakeMarshall said:

oh huh there's a voting spreadsheet

I bet that makes vote tallies so much easier huh

Especially once Kas creates a magic spell that does it for me.

But yes, so much easier. If I cared less about you guys, I could have you type it in a way that I could literally copy and paste, but that amount of comfort isn't worth you guys not being able to solve.

[DrakeMarshall he/him]

1 minute ago, The Unknown Order said:

Especially once Kas creates a magic spell that does it for me.

But yes, so much easier. If I cared less about you guys, I could have you type it in a way that I could literally copy and paste, but that amount of comfort isn't worth you guys not being able to solve.

Truly, you are a kind and benevolent GM 

[CoderDrag0n8 He/They]

Question: Are PMs in character?

because I have been confuzzled.

1 hour ago, Wonko the Sane said:

Bounty Hunter/Target: Notably, this duo don't actually have different win conditions, so I think it's better to treat as just a pair of mutually exclusive Power Roles. Of the two, I think the Target is undeniably stronger for the Village (and, notably is completely useless to the elims). The Bounty Hunter at best buys the Village an extra cycle or two of survival time, while the Target gives us a huge information advantage. So, assuming both the Bounty Hunter and Target are Villagers, we want the Bounty Hunter to die first (in fact, even the Bounty Hunter wants that, because they still have a Village wincon). This is also true if both the Bounty Hunter and Target are Elims; we want the eliminators to get redundant information they already know, not gain a vote resistance. The only case where the Village wants the Bounty Hunter to win is if the Bounty Hunter is Village and the Target is an Elim (and even then, the fail state is just "neither team gets a useful Power Role", so it's not critical).

Based on that, I advise the Bounty Hunter to hold back on pursuing the Target for now. Instead, watch them, and try and figure out their alignment. If you're confident that they're an eliminator then you can go for it, but if you suspect that they're a villager, your goal should actually be to keep the Target safe until you die.

I don't fully understand this train of logic

Why is the Target good for the Homsteaders? Did I miss some important piece of information?

I think I missed something

[The Unknown Medallion he/him]

1 minute ago, CoderDrag0n8 said:

Question: Are PMs in character?

because I have been confuzzled.

It's up to you!

In character, out of character, or a mix, you can do whatever you like.

[Kasimir he/him]

k. Would be great if people didn't touch the voting sheet for, IDK, fifteen minutes maybe? I'm groggy and tired, if I take longer I'll let you know but I'm gonna fix it up real quick.

[Through the Living Hopper He/Him]

Do we get an extra vote for sending the "Kindling the Flame" PM, or is that the +1 already included?

[The Unknown Medallion he/him]

15 minutes ago, ThatOneWorldhopper said:

Do we get an extra vote for sending the "Kindling the Flame" PM, or is that the +1 already included?

Using your GMPM does not incur a penalty. 

[DrakeMarshall he/him]

My mechanical analysis:

1. Everything Wonko said about the Hunter/Target makes sense and while I hadn't really thought about it, I tend to agree.

2. Whether breaking the simple rules is worth it depends on timing.

Early in the game, imo it's probably often worth it, or at least not that big of a deal if you incur some extra votes. Anyways, I've got a few votes right now, so don't be shy about antagonizing the shades 

Late in the game, there's less players, so each vote is relatively more impactful. Those extra votes could be the difference between the elims being able to force-feed an innocent tax evader to the shades or not being able to do that.

• Running At Night: Just not worth it in endgame, imo. I think we should taper off PM communications as the game unfolds. The extra votes are too critical when there's fewer players. And whatever secret thing you'd hypothetically want to whisper about in PMs, it's probably time to share with the class in any case, because there's not much use in carrying a secret into the next turn if there won't be a next turn.
• Kindling a Flame: This is generally a good tool to use if you're confident in your vote and want it to count for more.
  There's one exception I can think of. If you're leading in the votes and village, I don't think you should kindle a flame. At best you voted for an elim, in which case you haven't actually changed the balance of votes between the most voted villager and the most voted elim. At worst you voted for a villager and now 2 villagers have an extra vote on them. While it's understandable to want to burn brighter when you're in more danger, I don't think it helps in this case.
  Anyways, I think kindling a flame remains very relevant as the game goes on. While the risk is higher in endgame, the risk of not using it is also higher. In the extreme case when the village is 1 turn away from losing, we should probably assume that the elims won't show much restraint with kindling flames, so neither should we. At that point I kinda think everyone should use it, regardless of how confident you feel in your vote. Spend it like there's no tomorrow! Because there isn't.
• Don't Shed The Blood of Another: Breaking this rule is necessary to make any progress. It does theoretically slightly discourage overkill -- ie, in an ideal world you wouldn't want to pile your vote on someone who's already going over, since then you're just incurring an extra vote for no reason -- but, surprisingly, none of us can divine the future  Considering how ubiquitious vote manipulation is in this game, I don't think we can reliably anticipate if someone is gonna go over or not. And so long as some villagers are incurring the penalty (which I should hope will happen every single turn), the benefit of personally avoiding it is kinda dubious anyways. I think the correct approach is maybe just to ignore this rule for the red herring it is.

This has been mechanical analysis with Drake. Stay tuned for more. Well, maybe in a different game. I'm not sure what else there is to say about this one.

[Sparker He/Him]

wait. What happend to all the votes?

I cant see them on the spreadsheet anymore

[The Unknown Medallion he/him]

4 minutes ago, Sparker said:

wait. What happend to all the votes?

I cant see them on the spreadsheet anymore

Kas did his thing and made it pretty, but left the reference sheet as the first tab. I've moved it over and it should now be fine.

Thank you @Kasimir!