Mental health club!

[NerdSandwich she/her]

1 hour ago, Through The Living Ketek said:

I feel like no one really understands me, you know?

They try and help me, but them not understanding even when I try to explain just has slowly made me give up on trying to explain myself. It just feels like they'll take the wrong message and try and help in the wrong way, and then I just feel so alone with my problems.

I feel like I should be able to get rid of these problems alone but I just can't. I just can't. And that just pushes me further down the rabbit hole I'm in, and when I look back I see myself in that rabbit hole but when I try I seem to forget and push myself further down without realizing. But that probably doesn't make sense to any of you, because it didn't doesn't for anyone else. And I seem to ask myself afterwards why I did that, but I don't know why, and it gets even worse when other people get upset with me and they ask me why, but I still don't know why, and that just strains relationships more and more until I am afraid they'll snap if I even talk to them.

But I lie and say that I'm fine to others because I want them to feel better about me, but I'm doing it so often it's turning that intent into lying to myself and telling myself that I'm OK when I'm not.

AGGHHH I FEEL THE SAME

[Shatter He/Him]

1 hour ago, Through The Living Ketek said:

Yeah. 

I know what needs to be explained I just can't figure out how to convey it. 

I've tried over and over to compartmentalize and I just never figured it out. 

I just wish I could talk and talk and talk without being awkward and dissolving everything I say into nonsense. I can't get off tangents no matter how hard I try; hence the rabbit hole.

Yeah exactly. I compartmentalize the parts that have to do with the convo. Like rn I'm talking to my mom about her being a guarantor for a place I'm renting. So like, I have to explain time management and all that. She does understand a bit more because she works with kids who have ADHD and autism, but yeah. I get it. It's hard and I still dunno how to explain everything. Maybe try to write everything down?

I should make a little pamphlet I give to people. That would be funny and also useful.

[Keteᛕ He/Him/His]

1 hour ago, Shatter said:

Maybe try to write everything down?

I've been trying.

[coldfuzion76 he/him]

17 hours ago, Through The Living Ketek said:

I've been trying.

I struggle with writing things down, too. Even bought a CBT workbook specifically so I would have some kind of focus to help, but I have a hard time wanting to actually do it. My therapist tries to help by sending reminders, but it’s so easy to find something else to do. 
To be honest, that’s a lot of the reason I’m here. I was looking for places to go where I might be better understood, and thought that maybe being able to use the trials of the characters to help me explain how I’m feeling.

[Denissimo He/him]

I haven't been here in a while. I generally come 'round periodically. I try to help somewhat.

 

There are some old faces, still struggling. Some new ones with pains of their own.

 

Hm.

 

Unfortunately, the help I offer is likely insufficient for most of these matters. I can relate, but (in my experience) many problems require the self to be most of the solution.
You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink and all that.

 

My worry is that some are becoming stuck in a stasis. An ever spinning echo-chamber of problems. I think another addressed this previously.

 

Having said that, I can't think of any way to word or describe a solution. The mind is funny, isn't it?

 

Now here we have a dilemma. No one wishes to watch people suffer. That's why I'm here, to try to lessen it in my own awkward way.

Yet I doubt anything I say will really help you (collectively). Again, an echo chamber. Information ricochets without being assimilated.

 

Makes me feel kind of helpless, and I'm guessing others have felt it too.

 

The best thing I can do is generally sit, listen, and try to offer my perspective.
That perspective is proving insufficient. And sitting and listening doesn't herald any extra emotional comfort on a forum.

 

I'm not sure what I had in mind when i started writing this. Usually, I target individuals and give a long as heck paragraph. This is just kind of words.

 

Hm.

 

 

 

[Denissimo He/him]

On 5/21/2026 at 4:11 AM, Through The Living Ketek said:

I've been trying.

This is particularly interesting. I think I'll address this first.

Always, humans have had an issue properly expressing their own thoughts and feelings. We wish to do so to be understood, for that is a common desire among our fellows and peers. 
Unfortunately, it can simply be too difficult to put and abstract thought or feeling into words or any sort of properly tangible expression. 

And even if you were the most talented linguist in all the world, with access to every terminology across the language, you'd still have the same issue: for the human mind is a multitude of facets and feelings.

Consider the human mind as a massively complex system of pathways. Each one containing thoughts, feelings, emotions, a "facet" of your personality or self. The thing is, we only traverse one pathway at a time. Sure, we can switch and jump around with extraordianry speed, but we are never able to adhere to, say, 2 distinct lines of proper ruminative thought at a time. That, and those pathways are constantly shifting and evolving with new inputs and emotions.

Thus, we simply aren't able to actively observe enough of ourselves to be able to come up with a complete, or even coherent idea of how to explain, or even properly identify who we "are", what our probleems are, etc.

Not to say it's impossible of course. 

Right now, I'm likely slowly deviating from my original point. I'm thinking WHILE I'm writing, this is literallry my present thought processes. Just an example, if you will.

Anyways. My point is, it's always difficult to identify and/or explain your issues. Figuring out exactly what they are yourself is one thing. Trying to explain them to others is an entirely different rabbit hole. 

Don't stop trying. Eventually, you will find the words (Stormlight, huzzah!). Remember that you are constantly changing. Your problems, the way you describe them, all will change and shift. Some issues are core to humanity itself and cannot truly be solved.

Perhaps you can look at various philosophical frameworks. Try them out. Ruminate them a bit. See if they give you the answers and/or closure you seek.

As for getting help from others:

On 5/21/2026 at 1:50 AM, NerdSandwich said:

I feel like I should be able to get rid of these problems alone but I just can't. I just can't. And that just pushes me further down the rabbit hole I'm in, and when I look back I see myself in that rabbit hole but when I try I seem to forget and push myself further down without realizing. But that probably doesn't make sense to any of you, because it didn't doesn't for anyone else. And I seem to ask myself afterwards why I did that, but I don't know why, and it gets even worse when other people get upset with me and they ask me why, but I still don't know why, and that just strains relationships more and more until I am afraid they'll snap if I even talk to them.

I know what you mean. Or at least, I think I do.

It does, for a lot of people. You are definitely not alone in this manner.

Trapped in self doubt? And endless cycle of behaviors, emotions, or thoughts that harm yourself and those around you sometimes? A terrifying loss of control, with each step slowly destroying whatever trust you had in your ability to control what's happening?

That's what I'm getting. Sorry if I'm being a bit blunt.

Ah, trapped in a cage of one's own mind. This I cannot help with. But the ones around you might be able to.
So here's a quote: "People see only the decisions you made, not the choices you had."
Perhaps let someone close know that you realize there is a problem. Let them see not just the result of your turmoil (which is likely negative), but show them the turmoil. Remind them that no one is dislikable because they wish to be.
To often we judge outcomes without considering the pain that caused it. 

And of course, then it's up to you. Even after acquiring help, the effort to change must come from you. Even if it feels like running into a brick wall, perhaps you'll find it'll eventually yield. 

Or, I may have completely misinterpreted your post. If so, sorry. 

 

I've written a lot. At this point, I've forgotten 80% of what I typed in this post. So, any inaccuracies or fallacies will go unnoticed until someone tells me.

[Denissimo He/him]

On 5/19/2026 at 5:06 AM, Lotus Blossom said:

hey yall

its been a sec since ive last posted here

a classmate of mine took her life on friday

idk its been a lot

i really want to tell everyone here that life is too precious for this and you deserve better and there are so many people who love you even if at times it feels lonely out there

reach out please. doesn't have to be anything long or deep or serious but even just sending a  and getting a  back can be something. or it could also be starting a conversation thats long or deep or serious. please just know there is help waiting for you wherever you are. the world is so much better with you in it, and ik that sounds cliche but in situations where there are no more words left, thats all we can say

okay thats all

love you folks

There is something rare.

Thank you for taking your pain, and letting it blossom instead of fester and rot.

Yet who is truly alone?

The dead,
who have become stillness?

Or us
the living,
fading with every breath,
losing ourselves
mistaking movement for permanence.

 

Da-ancing through the air
I hear piano-o.

 

 

Edited May 23 by Denissimo

[Denissimo He/him]

On 5/13/2026 at 8:08 AM, Usseewa said:

loll rreal

i ate a whole thing once, in one sitting

 

sh

  Hide contents

it's like self-harm

I get carried away and I

 

take my knife, go down this road, and,

Cuuuuut till I can't no more.

I got cuts and that's a fact, the urge is comin' back,

I got a Big Mac, ketchup red to match.

Slidin' 'cross my skin, yeah, it's can't get much worse,

I be in a frenzy, strayin' off my course, now

 

Ain't never stoppin' cuttin'

I ain't stoppin' cuttin'

Ain't never stoppin' cuttin'

I ain't stoppin' cuttin'

 

(Lol if you couldn't tell that was an OldTownRoad parody)

Also I'm fine rn don't worry, the happiness has returned 

And still clean for today

 

Ah. Hello again.


SH:

Spoiler

So you did end up SHing? I'm sorry I wasn't there somehow.

Now here's something that is bothering me. For all those who have had experiences with SH: Did those around you not notice and try to stop you? 
Normally, some sort of intervention happens, does it not? Because I worry some of the problems some here are facing is partially (or even largely) because of their environment.

My opinions on SH are... not going to be discussed in detail here, but I will say it's way to easy to cut too deep and nearly accidentally kill yourself. And they can cause major knock-on physical effects. E.g. numbness in the fingers, reduced motor control in your hands, or major keloid scarring.

Please be careful. And remember... ask yourself, what does SH do for you? Is the pain a distraction? Do you like the appearance of scars? Ask yourself whether it is solving anything. Or if it's making things worse.

All of you. Please don't cut too deep. Or take that small extra step from harm to an ending.

 

Edited May 23 by Denissimo

[#1 Taln Fan he/him]

4 hours ago, Denissimo said:

You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink and all that.

This is indeed the problem. While listening to others is good, and offering advice can be helpful, ultimately people do have to takes steps, as I've stressed before. If you just talk about your problems, that does tend to alleviate some of the emotional burden, but that won't fix the problems. Sometimes you can't change your environment and stressors. But you can always change how you respond to them. And the stressors you can change, try to change them. 

Preparation is also key. If you've been eating a healthy balanced diet, been getting quality 8 hours of sleep, and get exercise/sunlight, you'll be better equipped to handle things sent your way. While those aren't always feasible for everyone, it's often more feasible than you think if you prioritize them. All of those are proven to have mental health benefits. Even if it doesn't completely erase your mental health struggles, they'll at least lessen the symptoms somewhat, even if you don't always notice it. 

It's very easy to get trapped in the mindset of "This is just what I struggle with, it's a part of who I am". But it can be dangerous to think that way, as it's easy to give up trying to improve your mental health. There's tons and tons of resources out there, whether through therapy (the best one, since it's tailored to you), or through books or online. But eventually you have to take steps to seek them out and apply them. Oftentimes we actually know what we need to do, whether that's open up to IRL friends or prioritize sleep, but we end up not doing them anyway

@Denissimo Also quick mod note, pls edit your previous post in the future instead of double posting  (You can put stuff in spoiler boxes for length too if need be)

(And another note, please remember to put SH stuff in a labeled spoiler box)

[Denissimo He/him]

17 minutes ago, #1 Taln Fan said:

This is indeed the problem. While listening to others is good, and offering advice can be helpful, ultimately people do have to takes steps, as I've stressed before. If you just talk about your problems, that does tend to alleviate some of the emotional burden, but that won't fix the problems. Sometimes you can't change your environment and stressors. But you can always change how you respond to them. And the stressors you can change, try to change them. 

Preparation is also key. If you've been eating a healthy balanced diet, been getting quality 8 hours of sleep, and get exercise/sunlight, you'll be better equipped to handle things sent your way. While those aren't always feasible for everyone, it's often more feasible than you think if you prioritize them. All of those are proven to have mental health benefits. Even if it doesn't completely erase your mental health struggles, they'll at least lessen the symptoms somewhat, even if you don't always notice it. 

It's very easy to get trapped in the mindset of "This is just what I struggle with, it's a part of who I am". But it can be dangerous to think that way, as it's easy to give up trying to improve your mental health. There's tons and tons of resources out there, whether through therapy (the best one, since it's tailored to you), or through books or online. But eventually you have to take steps to seek them out and apply them. Oftentimes we actually know what we need to do, whether that's open up to IRL friends or prioritize sleep, but we end up not doing them anyway

Ah, thank you. Said better, and kinder than I could have.

Too often we (me inclusive, I must say.) let our flaws and struggles become too integrated into ourselves. Thats why I generally abhor labels like "Introvert", "Extrovert", "Antisocial". To me, it forces you into conforming to that archetype. One who has been called, and consequentially calls themselves an introvert, might actively act as one: And lose what little chance they might have had of further social development. Everyone stands on a constantly changing spectrum. We forget that too much.
One should never think of personality "traits", or even "personality" as who you "are" or "have to be", if you know what I mean. We are humans. Some days you might stay in the house, not feeling like social interaction. Does that make you an "introvert"? By conventional definition, yes (Or if we want to be fancy, a hikikomori). But you will have days when you laugh and hang out with your friends all the time. Are you still an "introvert"? 
Sure, people tend to have behavioral trends. But once the labels we give for those trends begin to prevent our behaviors from changing, they become harmful.

17 minutes ago, #1 Taln Fan said:

@Denissimo Also quick mod note, pls edit your previous post in the future instead of double posting  (You can put stuff in spoiler boxes for length too if need be)

(And another note, please remember to put SH stuff in a labeled spoiler box)

Just saw this part. And nearly double-posted again to reply. Alright, will do, and thanks.

Edited May 23 by Denissimo

[Keteᛕ He/Him/His]

3 hours ago, Denissimo said:

I know what you mean. Or at least, I think I do.

It does, for a lot of people. You are definitely not alone in this manner.

Trapped in self doubt? And endless cycle of behaviors, emotions, or thoughts that harm yourself and those around you sometimes? A terrifying loss of control, with each step slowly destroying whatever trust you had in your ability to control what's happening?

That's what I'm getting. Sorry if I'm being a bit blunt.

Ah, trapped in a cage of one's own mind. This I cannot help with. But the ones around you might be able to.
So here's a quote: "People see only the decisions you made, not the choices you had."
Perhaps let someone close know that you realize there is a problem. Let them see not just the result of your turmoil (which is likely negative), but show them the turmoil. Remind them that no one is dislikable because they wish to be.
To often we judge outcomes without considering the pain that caused it. 

And of course, then it's up to you. Even after acquiring help, the effort to change must come from you. Even if it feels like running into a brick wall, perhaps you'll find it'll eventually yield. 

Or, I may have completely misinterpreted your post. If so, sorry. 

I-

Wow.

I've never seen someone talk to me that much about and also sound so sincere.

That helps a lot, @Denissimo. 

Thank you.

[Denissimo He/him]

10 minutes ago, Through The Living Ketek said:

I-

Wow.

I've never seen someone talk to me that much about and also sound so sincere.

That helps a lot, @Denissimo. 

Thank you.

I'm happy I could contribute. 

"Wal-king in the air..."

The pain circulating here is an integral part of human existence.

The Myth of Sisyphus, if you will. 
But we must imagine Sisyphus as happy.

[Verdance he/him]

A little pain never hurt anyone

work has been a pressure ive needed to get used to, i would consider it painful, but its good for my mental health as opposed to sticking my head in the depression bucket

Edited May 24 by Verdance

[Denissimo He/him]

36 minutes ago, Verdance said:

A little pain never hurt anyone

work has been a pressure ive needed to get used to, i would consider it painful, but its good for my mental health as opposed to sticking my head in the depression bucket

Agreed (and the juxtaposition is noted an appreciated).
The Myth of Sisyphus, by my (and Albert Camus's (I like that guy)) interpretation supports this.

Eventually, you learn to find joy in the simple act of rolling the rock up that hill. Even if you know it goes nowhere.

Life, isn't it?

[Keteᛕ He/Him/His]

But then there's the tipping point of the hill. The point when it just goes too far for too long.

[NerdSandwich she/her]

Thanks guys
*hugs*

Take the storming rep!

I will not stand for being the only one with a million notifs!

Plus it's well deserved

[Keteᛕ He/Him/His]

7 minutes ago, NerdSandwich said:

I will not stand for being the only one with a million notifs!

one liner! 

MINE!

[NerdSandwich she/her]

*sigh*

Side effect of being crazy

[Verdance he/him]

Lately I’ve been thinking in this metaphor that I’m like the color grey

when my circumstances are black and dark and heavy, i feel relaxed in comparison. Im able to handle my emotions and feel somewhat in control

but when the world around me is white and bright and easy, i feel darker in comparison. I don’t want to be all that happy all the time, it feels empty and worthless and only make me feel lonelier 

like im not truly depressed, but neither am i happy

But just writing this down has helped a bit because the problem isn’t whether in metaphor i am grey or white or black- obviously, i am green. 

The problem is comparisons and stagnancy. Im getting too caught up in comparing myself to the world around me, which is mostly *lies* (in a Cryptic way) anyhow, when I should be thankful for what God has given me and learn to grow and let things go.

for example, i have become a bit attached to waking up in the morning and sitting in the backseat of a van or bus during carpool when the sun is still down, listening to music and drinking coffee and being half asleep. Now that the sun is coming up earlier, it feels like that experience is being taken from me

instead, i should take the time to look at the sunrise. I always forget until i look outside how ridiculously beautiful the sky is. Literally every sky always blows me away, they are all gorgeous and unique and sometimes colorful. God is an artist, the sky is one of his favorite canvases, and I have a constantly changing gallery right at my fingertips every day! All i have to do it look up!

dont be grey. Definitely try not to be black. And don’t get caught up in despair just because you can’t be white

be colorful

[Keteᛕ He/Him/His]

3 minutes ago, Verdance said:

Lately I’ve been thinking in this metaphor that I’m like the color grey

when my circumstances are black and dark and heavy, i feel relaxed in comparison. Im able to handle my emotions and feel somewhat in control

but when the world around me is white and bright and easy, i feel darker in comparison. I don’t want to be all that happy all the time, it feels empty and worthless and only make me feel lonelier 

like im not truly depressed, but neither am i happy

But just writing this down has helped a bit because the problem isn’t whether in metaphor i am grey or white or black- obviously, i am green. 

The problem is comparisons and stagnancy. Im getting too caught up in comparing myself to the world around me, which is mostly *lies* (in a Cryptic way) anyhow, when I should be thankful for what God has given me and learn to grow and let things go.

for example, i have become a bit attached to waking up in the morning and sitting in the backseat of a van or bus during carpool when the sun is still down, listening to music and drinking coffee and being half asleep. Now that the sun is coming up earlier, it feels like that experience is being taken from me

instead, i should take the time to look at the sunrise. I always forget until i look outside how ridiculously beautiful the sky is. Literally every sky always blows me away, they are all gorgeous and unique and sometimes colorful. God is an artist, the sky is one of his favorite canvases, and I have a constantly changing gallery right at my fingertips every day! All i have to do it look up!

dont be grey. Definitely try not to be black. And don’t get caught up in despair just because you can’t be white

be colorful

Whoa.

[Verdance he/him]

5 minutes ago, Verdance said:

dont be grey. Definitely try not to be black. And don’t get caught up in despair just because you can’t be white

be colorful

Just to clarify this is a metaphor and not a statement on race or ethnicity or gender or sexuality in any way

i have so much anxiety right now

Edited May 26 by Verdance

[Denissimo He/him]

1 hour ago, Through The Living Ketek said:

But then there's the tipping point of the hill. The point when it just goes too far for too long.

In the thought experiment, the point is that the rock will never reach the tipping point. Here is some background:

Sisyphus was an intelligent guy who fell out of favour with the greek gods to such an extent that Hades brews up a special punishment: He promises Sisyphus freedom if he simply rolls a boulder to the top of a hill. Unbenownst to Sisyphus, the boulder has been tampered with by the gods so that it will never reach the top: always stopping just before, no matter how hard he tries, and rolls back down once more.

In a philosophical essay titled the "Myth of Sisyphus", by french philosopher Albert Camus, he explores many themes: But central to the text is the postulation of the "Absurd": The conflict between our human desire to create meaning, and the cold, silent, and indifferent universe which does not, and is under no obligation to provide it (this is of course based off a more nihilistic view of the universe).
Upon realising the existence of the absurd, and by extension realising the meaninglessness of life and how the only meaning that exists are mere illusions conjured by ourselves (whether it be religion, higher beings, concepts of a "lifes purpose": Camus postulates that they are all lies.), Camus goes on to explore ways people respond to this knowledge.

The first, is 
TW:

Spoiler

Physical Suicide. Escaping the absurdity of life and it's meaninglessness by ending it. Camus strictly rejects this, arguing that this surrenders to the problem rather than truly confronts it.

The second is philosophical suicide:
Escaping by nonetheless inventing a higher meaning, turning to religion or dogmatic ideologies. Camus rejects this too, viewing it as a cowardly denial of reality.

The third is acceptance and revolution:
Fully acknowledging the meaninglessness of life while choosing to live passionately and defiantly anyway. He calls this the absurdist path.

In order to best illustrate the absurdist path, camus turned to the greek myth of sisyphus for which his essay is titled.

Sisyphus’s punishment represents the human condition. We build careers, pursue happiness, and create meaning, knowing it will all eventually fade away with our mortality. (the rock rolls down the hill once more.)

When Sisyphus walks back down the mountain to retrieve the rock, he is fully conscious of his hopeless fate. Yet, he chooses to walk down anyway. For Camus, this act of defiant consciousness is the ultimate victory. As Camus famously wrote: "One must imagine Sisyphus happy."

I largely am an absurdist, or try to be. However, my views differ with Camus's in the matter of religion. I prefer to be more open to religious evidence, though admittedly I haven't encountered anything concrete enough for me to return to my faith. 

11 minutes ago, Verdance said:

Lately I’ve been thinking in this metaphor that I’m like the color grey

when my circumstances are black and dark and heavy, i feel relaxed in comparison. Im able to handle my emotions and feel somewhat in control

but when the world around me is white and bright and easy, i feel darker in comparison. I don’t want to be all that happy all the time, it feels empty and worthless and only make me feel lonelier 

like im not truly depressed, but neither am i happy

But just writing this down has helped a bit because the problem isn’t whether in metaphor i am grey or white or black- obviously, i am green. 

The problem is comparisons and stagnancy. Im getting too caught up in comparing myself to the world around me, which is mostly *lies* (in a Cryptic way) anyhow, when I should be thankful for what God has given me and learn to grow and let things go.

for example, i have become a bit attached to waking up in the morning and sitting in the backseat of a van or bus during carpool when the sun is still down, listening to music and drinking coffee and being half asleep. Now that the sun is coming up earlier, it feels like that experience is being taken from me

instead, i should take the time to look at the sunrise. I always forget until i look outside how ridiculously beautiful the sky is. Literally every sky always blows me away, they are all gorgeous and unique and sometimes colorful. God is an artist, the sky is one of his favorite canvases, and I have a constantly changing gallery right at my fingertips every day! All i have to do it look up!

dont be grey. Definitely try not to be black. And don’t get caught up in despair just because you can’t be white

be colorful

Purity and singularity, or in your words to be "black", or any singular colour, is to be close-minded.

I like this. This is nice. And I appreciate how you illustrate that accepting your facets and letting yourself change and grow as being colourful. Or, that is how I interpret it.

"Don't get caught up in despair just because you can't be white"
"Definitely try not to be black"
Verdance? Hehehe.

[Verdance he/him]

Quote

Escaping by nonetheless inventing a higher meaning, turning to religion or dogmatic ideologies. Camus rejects this too, viewing it as a cowardly denial of reality.

I’m honestly offended, not by you specifically but still… I try and use theology as well as traditional logical philosophy. Ecclesiastes is basically an entire book of the Bible which boils down to:

1. Life is meaningless

2. A simple life of manageable struggle gives life meaning

3. God gives life meaning

I would consider myself both religious and absurdist. They’re not mutually exclusive.

Quote

Purity and singularity, or in your words to be "black", or any singular colour, is to be close-minded.

I like this. This is nice. And I appreciate how you illustrate that accepting your facets and letting yourself change and grow as being colourful. Or, that is how I interpret it.

"Don't get caught up in despair just because you can't be white"
"Definitely try not to be black"
Verdance? Hehehe

This doesn’t refer to any form of morality or purity- im using the color black as a metaphor for depression, difficult circumstances, and deep painful emotion, while white is the exact opposite.

yeah, that’s definitely part of what im trying to get across. Growth is colorful and messy and that’s okay! 

and i made a qualifier below that…

Quote

Just to clarify this is a metaphor and not a statement on race or ethnicity or gender or sexuality in any way

 

Edited May 26 by Verdance

[Aeoryi she/her]

is this really the best place to have a debate about religion 

[Verdance he/him]

2 minutes ago, Aeoryi said:

is this really the best place to have a debate about religion 

Not exactly 

but Den has proven to be a respectful and brilliant debater, the lars time we spoke about religion and philosophy was very productive, and i hope he can say the same about me

ill try not to sidetrack the discussion though, thanks